Are Western Values Really Superior to the Rest of the World? [2013] - Ibn Warraq
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- In this clip from our 2013 session titled 'We Should Not Hesitate to Assert the Superiority of Western Values,' author Ibn Warraq articulates his perspective in favour of the motion. He presents his opinions on why the Eastern world could derive benefits from embracing traditional Western values, highlighting his belief in their superiority for societal improvement. What are your thoughts? Be sure to leave your opinions in the comment section below.
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It is a positive thing to see people trying to discuss which "cultural value system is better?" As a human being we are bound to be driven by self-interest. We are offended when some other person criticize our identity (whatever that is) and say you should follow our culture or value system (whatever that maybe). Putting aside all these issues, for myself, I want to create the highest standard of living for everyone on earth. If you travel to different countries today then it is undeniable that there are only a handful of countries who have achieved a high standard of living for its average citizen. All of these countries have democratic republican systems of governance, where the rule of law can be objectively independent, and where ingredients of free-market capitalism are protected for everyone. It is the responsibility of countries who have not achieved true democratic republicanism, true rule of law, and true free-market capitalism to change themselves and give their people a chance to have a better life. During my travel to Communist China I encountered tour guides, taxi drivers, ... who continue to deny the obvious pitfalls of the Chinese Communist System of Absolute Power. Their absolute power prevents the Chinese people from raising their own standard of living. We know what type of society works. After WWII we see North Korea fall under the control of the Soviet Red Army and their puppet North Korean comrades. Today North Korea is a despotic, pre-industrialized, closed society. Then there is South Korea. A devastated country at the end of the Korean War, rapidly developed under the guidance of the US, and able to join the truly developed countries in the world. No other country has been able to make such dramatic improvement in the standard of living for their citizens. Which would you choose for your country, North Korea or South Korea. The countries of the Arabian Peninsula cannot be included with South Korea. They have not made any significant changes to their society. They are still governed by the absolute power of monarchs, military-political strongmen, and theocratic dictators. These Muslim-Arab countries are blessed with fossil fuel reserves which is an easy sell on the international market. Fossil fuel is the resource that drive the world industrialized trading system. A system created by a handful of democratic republican, rule of law, and free-market capitalist countries. The modern world with all its conveniences was created by societies with certain characteristics and structure. Implement those characteristics and structure, and you win. But that is challenge. Since the dawn of civilization the old ruling order is based on military might. They have no interest surrendering their absolute power of governance to the people.
All we have to do is ask to see theur original archives. It all falls down from there 😂
Western values have won out.
Yes. No doubt about it. The word “superiority” is a poisonous term. It is better to say that western values underpin sustainability.
Europeans created Western Civilization which is copied all around the world because Western Civilization is superior. The British improved every country they colonized, since decolonization most of those countries are reverting to the pre-colonial stone age.
I'd avoid "Western" values, stick with "enlightenment" values, just as we should avoid "Western" science, science is science, independent of where it's developed.
Definitely not, Europeans didn’t do plumbing or bathing, they also had many diseases that killed Indigenous all around the planet
@@lapinchechismosa Didn't you know Greeks and Romans has plumbing and bathing? Which countries had piped chlorinated water systems and water borne sewage systems before Europe? Third world countries still don't have these things today. The post-colonial world is collapsing back into the pre-colonial stone age because they did not maintain the colonial infrastructure of power, water, sewage, roads and rail. It's normal for separate populations to have different diseases, they got new diseases from us and we got new diseases from them, if more of us survived in means our diet and hygiene was superior.
@@andrewworth7574 I'm not aware of any science other than European science. I'm not aware of any enlightenment other than the European enlightenment. Europeans created Western Civilization which is copied all around the world, Europeans have nothing to be ashamed about so why avoid the word European. The moral of white people needs to be restored, white people need to get the wind back in their sails.
yes they are
- Very well said speech
What values shall we use to decide the answer?
A banquet of ideas, thank you so very much.
Yes, the West is better. Not perfect. Definitely better.
Based on what the ability to pillage and enforce neocolonialism then yes I agree the west is the best at that. No doubt the west has forgotten it’s dark ages were plagues were constant the ability to read and write was only permitted to the elite. Whilst in the east the first university was established, the father of modern medicine originated from, and were all three Abrahamic faiths derived from with no reference to Europe apart from the romans, of course the west is best.
You truly exhibit your human values once you've achieved your goals, wealth, and a comfortable life. It's when your happy life seems to falter that others can perceive your true values.
Western values being superior does not equate to Westerners being superior. Further, our current values are a result of our historical missteps. We condemn the historical atrocities that we have performed, not hail them.
That is why drawing on western historical atrocities show that you missed the point entirely.
What does The Holocaust represents in terms of Western values?.
Before the 2nd speaker starts, I'm thinking
he must be mad to go against
the Wonderfulness of Ibn Warraq's position.
He will certainly fail.
Charles Glass' speech was humorous but it picked on the worse of Western Civilisation,
without considering all other cultures on Earth have committed the same crimes.
The Japanese were for 12 years fighting the Pacific war against the Russians, Manchurians and Chinese,
before they joined the nazis in the Axis of evil.
I think, he failed to name a single superior idea that is not Western.
Also, he failed to mention DEMOCRACY!
Yes, agreed.
Azul 🌹🌹🌹
Stupid question... It's not difficult, here's a clue.. which way is migration ? its not to China Russia, India, Middle East, Africa, or South America...
Look into neo colonialism, the amount of democracies overthrown by the US, the respective trajectories of the countries you mentioned, e.g that china has taken almost a billion Chinese out of poverty in the last few decades. The "west" has a headstart due to colonialism and neo colonialism but all empires fall and it is pure hubris to pretend that what may come next will necessarily be inferior; it reveals a level of hegemonic colonial racism within your view.
The west is what destroyed the majority of Africa + parts of the middle east.
Please don't pretend that those places were so wonderful back then.
Agree that middle class in west is stronger but it is only because of money people immigrate.
simple answer, simple mind
Glancing quickly at that thumbnail, I thought it was Rose West.😅
William Dalrymple (later in the debate) I feel expressed the idea that Eastern values never had the chance to evolve into their higher modern forms due to western 'assertion' of our values. We would have a lot to learn if only we took our boots off from upon their necks. I suspect we will still be 'asserting' our values in another 10 -50 years.
Is that harry Enfield speaking
The West ain't perfect but it's a damn good place to be.
Yeah coz we’ve robbed everyone else to get what we have
Let us explain to you why our neo-roman values are good and why our imperialism is righteous
Yes exactly 💯🇨🇭
Stunningly put.
But the jersey!
As horrible as this might sound, we need more minorities speaking about how good western culture is! If a white person said the exact same thing, they’d be called white supremacists! I’m so happy I live in a country where all people have rights, but I’m concerned where it’s headed!
The camera should have done a better job with cropping on the speaker as the guy sitting to his right is constantly fidgeting and is distracting. The only issue with concluding the west is superior is the issue we’re dealing with now, is the wealth and societal gap that the wests freedoms has created with unbridled capitalism. So while rights may be broad, one’s ability to enjoy those rights are quickly being limited by one’s ability to afford basic needs such as housing/food/education. The wealthy in the west are becoming oligarch’s who are controlling information flow, seem to be above the law, own much more than any human needs in a lifetime. I don’t know the answer, but if we don’t figure it out this society is heading for failure.
Well said.
The poor in the developed nations are still way better off than most others in the world.
What's the point of arguing against religion? If someone believes in it, it follows they will believe in it's teachings even if those teachings are against what are termed 'human rights'.
This guy pointing the finger at Islam, it's not like the other religions didn't have to be dragged to the situation where there was equality for women, gay rights etc. As recently as a decade ago, Christian Churches were arguing against same sex marriage in the UK.
I don't believe for one minute Christianity has softeened on these many issues, I believe that they know they do not have the sort of control over societies that they used to have and therefore their influence is weaker.
A hundred years ago, Christian leaders could isolate individuals who stood against church teaching because most people were believers. Now, most people in the UK are no Christian, they don't believe in any organised religion therefore the numbers standing against many Christian teachings is large enough that the church cannot isolate them in the way they used to.
I guarantee if the UK (for example) went back to 99% of people believing in the church here, that church would go back to taking a hard line on what the bible says. Lets not forget the Christian bible says much of the things the Quran says, it's just christianity no longer has the control it once had, especially in Western countries. But look at places where the Catholic Church still has high percentages of believers ina country and see how muich freedom gays have there or how much freedom women have to live a life other than being a baby producing machine.
If Muslim countries get to the state Western countries are at where a majority no longer believe in Islam or don't follow it to the letter, Islam will lose it's influence too and if it wanted to remain relevant in those countries, it would likely have to soften it's views.
But if there was an upturn in numbers believing, guaranteed the teaching would become more hard line. Christianity would be no different in my view. As soon as they get enough followers and start to control them, the direction of the politics changes.
Look at abortion rights, taken away in the USA because of the religious lobby.
Finally a sane answer 👏🏽
Not superior, just historically shaped to oppose arbitrary rule and to explore more peaceable rules of law. The title does smack a smidgeon of strawman sensationalism which, maybe in a different discussion, wouldn't amount to anything more than mirth and musing, but in this instance is in danger of unwittingly fuelling unhelpful anti-Western sentiment long after the video has ended. It's true our colonial ancestors certainly took their sense of moral and religious superiority seriously enough to the point of killing 'others' with impunity, but many remorses abound in the minds of the blameless here-and-now who choose to learn about it, or else hear about it. And the freedom to condemn, to protest, to engage, to debate, is upheld by a culture of progressive engagement that - at the very least - will listen and acknowledge, and at most will strive to redress. And of course almost every society on the planet is historically guilty of (religious)state-sanctioned crimes against humanity. Not one of us comes from a line of descent that hasn't been mired - one way or another - in a thousand gory perpetrations. This last point is more than just kneejerk what-about-ism. Death is inevitable and tragic. A truly superior society is one that works to make life as rewarding, as free, as meaningful, and as healthy for each of its members as it is possible to be so that, when death comes, it comes alone, unaccompanied.
What human rights is this house N talking about
We have Human Rights Treaties. Even the Commons and their Bar they wish not the same regulation apply. Who gets to be the attorney to put them on trial they would deny be members. Start with ICCPR Treaty. Then CEDAW Rome Statute and the Convention on the rights of the child. A treaty is the highest law of the land. Every member of the Human Family has a Treaty. 9 Human Rights Instruments and so many more. Even Noah's Ark was a Treaty. Not the one they made up. Peter's name was Really Simon. The Diet of Worms was True. There are no "Republics" that means Plantation. A dumping ground of the Indigenous Women and her Peoples on the lands they Occupy now. Eriu is now Erin Crymu now Wales. The blood is not true blue you see. Every border is contraban. To think superior is to redirect to the same old Crusade Language their design of Pirating and Deception... typical of the Doers and their PITS. How does one become Milekowsky of USSR from Pope Pius XI to Pius XII from Poland to Nitay to Netenyahu without a design of scheme? Think the jewels on the crown simply appeard where they are now? Only a complicit doer would speak of civilizing when they themselves carry the lines of wrong doing. No One Is Above the Law. How many tribes were Greek and Roma? The Distaff side calls. We are all done eating this Diet of Worms. The Children of Mother Earth are the treasure. Abuse of power looks like frauds blaming another religion while only a Kingdom because of the Bull from another religon. Patrilineal ideas have done a bang up job. There is poinson falling from the sky from their choices. It is time to restore the rightful leaders. This Brighter side of Venus Experiment is the end of all life. The day they tell the truth they will have to share. Heal we all must if we are to have a globe at all to thrive on. Thier version of civilized starves herds and unalives millions in the nane of some new royal charter. One treaty is not superior of snother. Honor All The Treaties...treaties are why any of these nation exist now. We could all get to healing once they open their mouths with the complete truth. Then we could remember who we were befor they told us who we ought to be.
You still lookong for Baal and the Shahs sword in the lands you pillaged and claim that is not yours. Pick your own fruit and read your own book. It won't be long until we all awaken. No one is above International Law.
Some truths are self evident
What a poor counter.
Of course they are this is self evident, the counterpoint argument depends on pre-Enlightenment history so are irrelevant or grotesque aberrations, this is why we condemn Israel because _we expect_ much better from them.
But a more interesting question is why do some non Western societies eagerly adopt Liberal Rationalism and thrive while some like Russia seem too primitive and barbaric and some developed civilisations like China and India struggle with it, is it geopolitical, luck or something else?
Yes. Absolutely superior. Without question.
😂😂😂😂
STEALING TREASURE PEOPLE AND LAND IS WRONG. START FOCUSING ON YOUR OWN WRONG DOING.
Simple answer yes.
Correct answer: no.
😂😂😂 cool story, Fuhrer.