The Death of House Forrester is Not Pointless - ASOIAF Video Essay
Vložit
- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- I like ASOIAF
'The Medieval Banquet' by Silverman Sound is under a Creative Commons license (CC BY 3.0)
Music promoted by BreakingCopyright: bit.ly/Silverma...
Socials:
Patreon: / bytemarx
Discord: / discord
Twitter: / bytemarxcast
The only reason we need a second season of this game is so that Stannis “the mannis” Baratheon can show up and kick White Hill ass.
I’d kill to hear Stephen Dillane reprise his role as Stannis in any medium.
Him and Sir Davos
i'm hundred percent sure that Asher was marching with Stannis cause that would be his first face to face with The Bolton's. I believe the Army that left Stannis after the burning of his daughter were Malcolm.
This is one of the few pieces of media where the characters have anti-plot armor. The next thing that comes to mind is JJK. Its where everything that can go wrong does so in spectacular ways.
I like that. Anti-plot armour is an interesting concept.
-E
@@bytemarx8520 It can be frustrating in choice based games like this though because you can do everything right and still catastrophically fail. In shows and movies it works better with the general audience.
Though sometimes it can cause hate against the creator like in Jujustu Kaisens case where all the villains are crazy OP and keep surviving situations that should finish them but the main characters keep getting offed in brutal ways. Never seen another show where the villains have plot armor lol
Ever stopped to wonder if the protagonists of the show are the villains? @@Banished-rx4ol
@@Banished-rx4oli’d say Negan had pretty heavy plot armor in the TWD show
Diabolus ex machina. The villains are rewarded by plot. I have seen this in the original tv show. Yara and her men should have annihilated Ramsay. Stannis should have also annihilated Roose and Ramsay.
"Lord Forrester will remember that" right before dying about 30 seconds later. Pretty much sums up the actual importance of most of the choices in the game, sadly.
Though admittedly the Kings Landing part could have an interesting outcome.
What I loved about this game is that despite being doomed you could make choices in the game that would slightly change the outcome so maybe the forresters could’ve potentially won down the line.
Eventually Jon Snow is named King in the North. Did Gared try his best and make Jon proud? "Jon Snow will remember that.'
House Forrester absolutely could make a comeback. You know that they are gonna be looking for Whitehill banners specifically at bastardbowl.
@@wallybonejengles5595bastardbowl is not canonical. Neither is Jon becoming the King in the North. We have to wait for the last two books to find out
@@youngalek4434 The game is based on the HBO series, not the books.
They Said If There Was a Season 2 Talia and Ryon Forrester Would be Main Playable Characters.
That would be so sick! Poor Ryon. He's the smallest lad.
@@bytemarx8520 Yes He is,If I Was Asher or Rodric and I Barely Survived The Battle Failing to Protect My House and Thinking My Whole Family is Dead I Don't Know If I Could Carry on?
@@bytemarx8520 What Would You Do If You Were in Asher or Rodric's Position?
I've heard alot of complaints about the game being pointless because it deals with a "no name" house. This is a house which is never truly mentioned in the rest of ASOIAF with a resource which doesn't get mentioned much in the actual story of the show and the books.
But I find that to be the opposite, knowing the outcome of the show and being up to date with the books I feel like there wouldnt have been any true choice or control if we played as any of the major houses. The Forresters are an interesting family, which is both relevant enough to have the intrigue of ASOIAF with enough detachment to have *real* consequences while playing as them. And to me that makes the game much much better than it could have been. And to me the short appearances and interactions with really essential characters like Margaery, Tyrion, Cersei dont feel at all like purposeless throw ins. Although I found that Jon Snows interactions felt quite empty and pointless.
*SPOILER*
but I really disagree that the death of house Forrester was relevant or gave it any meaning. It felt like a endless loop of death and failure at times and while I love the game and it is my favourite in the telltale series, I feel like if there was a opportunity for a "better" ending (especially since there will never be a second game and it ends on a cliffhanger) it would have made the game so much more satisfying to play and replay.
If they had only planned on making a single season, I would agree with your last point. Since the shutdown of the studio wasn't expected/known, I think it makes sense for them to end on a low note to end the whole series on a high.
-E
I think they absolutely intended to make a second season, which would have had a better ending. However, the game just was not popular enough to get that second season which I think it really deserved.
@@Lolpy. Was not just about not being popular enough, they would have made it eventually anyway. But they did go bankrupt. I remember there used to be rumors back then about season 2 before TellTale was gone.
I will be amused if they ever go forward with the Jon Snow sequel show, Jon will find the North Grove.
It’s not pointless because it follows a noname house it’s pointless because you are screwed regardless of the choices you make
I have been hyper fixated on this game for months now and am so happy to see someone talking about it in 2024. Genuinely agree with you when you said this was the best Telltale had to offer. Having to pick between Asher and Rodrick is still to this day the most difficult choice I've had to make in any game. Really wish they hadn't taken it off online stores so I could buy it and replay it.
Absolutely!
-E
I really wish I could still download the game, I played it on my phone back when telltale games had a mobile version for some of their games. Those were the days.
This game was such a banger
The fact that you’re doomed from the start is in direct contravention to the premise of the game, which is that you are experiencing a story where your choices matter. But they don’t. Hence the frustration
My only wish is Ramsey would not kill ethan in episode 1
Poor poor Ethan.
-E
The problem with many Telltale games is the insistence that "choices matter" when so often they clearly don't. You do everything in your power to prevent an outcome and it happens anyway, you get told a character will remember your actions, only for them to die, you save one character, only for another character to take their place so they can write the same scene with two different characters.
Whichever character you don't pick as Sentinel betrays you, Mira always ends up getting caught for the murder, the rebellion always fails, Ramsay always kills Ethan. It's failure after failure. Sure, Mira can avoid getting executed, but at the cost of Tom's life and becoming a breeding slave for the man who ruined her life, which I'd consider a fate worse than death actually. It's just a slog, it's not an inherently bad game or story, but when there's no hope, it naturally brings up the question of why the story even needed to be told in the first place.
One idea I've seen is a pyrrhic victory, barely scraping a victory against the Whitehills, but still in servitude to the Boltons and broken after the effort, and it would have been at least had a bit of hope to it to keep more people engaged
Mira was my favorite to play as.
She's my favorite character. I see myself more as a Rodrik but Mira is definitely my favorite character.
-E
I’d like a season 2, but I have no idea what they’d do for a story. The show’s story went downhill pretty fast. So I have no idea how they could wrap up the game story.
I think there would be potential for something set in the Dance of the Dragons
-E
They became one of my favorite Northern Houses. Id love a follow up someday but with how many determinant fates they left to us im not sure how it would go. One day George is gonna leave us for the great beyond and the world he built is so deep and wide i can imagine people telling amazing stories in it long after he goes.
I think there are some difficult obstacles to overcome with regards to a conclusion to these stories.
GOT is already over and it didn't go very well. This game is very much tied to that show in a bunch of ways. Telltale closing down also induces a bunch of problems.
But we have fanfiction I think. That's what we ought to hope for.
-E
To anybody want know the timeline and for the ones that want to play the game in order while watching the show for the first time.
Telltale Game of Throne Timeline
Episode 1 First part S3 EP 9
Gared Arrive to father and Ironrath - Season 3 Episode 10
Ramsey Arrive - Season 4 Episode 1
So it take Ramsey three days to travel too Ironrath and back home making it been a week at most.
Episode 2 Timeline
Season 4 Episode 2- Joffrey wedding
Episode 3 Timeline
Season 4 Episode 2 - 4
Episode 4 Timeline
Season 4 Episode 5
Ramsey appearance during this episode is on the same day in the beginning of Episode 5 would make it been a week for Ramsey to return back to Reek
Episode 5 Timeline Season 4 Episode 5 - 6 - 7
Ramsay appearance Season 4 Episode 5
Mira visited Tyrion before his trial Season 4 Episode 6
Rodrik learn about the traitor and Ambush Season 4 Episode 6 - 7
Asher travel back home Season 4 Episode 6 - 7
Episode 6 Forrester vs Whitehill Timeline Season 4 Episode 6 - 7
Ramsay to Reek about Rodrik and Family Timeline Season 4 Episode 8
Cersei to Twyin about the Forrester Season 4 Episode 5 or 10
They need to remake or redo the game but really allow different outcomes based on your choices
As someone who's also a fan of ASOIAF and TTGOT, this video was so wonderful. It's so nice to have a (relatively new) fan of such an obscure GOT property. Mira was my favorite Forrester and storyline; I see she's your favorite too, judging by your comment below! I applaud your good taste! 😉 My favorite character was Tom, so you can guess how I felt about Mira's potential endings, lol. I would have loved to see a happier ending for both of them. They deserved far more than they got!!
At the risk of being too forward, do you have any other social media where you discuss the game? I'd love to talk to any other TTGOT fans, especially ones whose favorite is Mira!
If you would like to reach out, you can always message us on discord. Alternatively, you can always send us an email.
-E
There’s no “threading that needle”! That’s the whole issue!
It was shocking to see how badly general audiences reacted to Game of Thrones being a tragedy. I wonder if the ending would have been less hated if there had been more warning. I suspect more people would have just dropped the show.
Yeah that's something that really bothered me as well. It's a tragedy. It's not supposed to be a feel good story. But I do think the show itself did mishandle a lot. But that's something else.
-E
....that’s not why people disliked the ending to game of thrones. Lol.
People disliked the ending to GOT because it was stupid not because it was tragic
@@11555Rambler -- You need to read more tragedies.
@@Grizabeebles Good tragedy is when characters are brought down through the consequences of their own choices, not because the writers have decided a character's crazy now actually
I still have this game in my Xbox360. Telltale games were engaging and surprisingly well written, with good voice acting, but the frustrating thing is that you only have the illusion of choice, and in the end your choices don’t really matter.
The other favorite game of mine, is the Telltale batman series. You have to accept that you can't really change the major parts of the story in order to enjoy the game.
-E
@@bytemarx8520 their walking dead series was also good, especially the first season!
bought this back when it was weekly releases. really liked this game.
The GOT game was the only TTG title that I got to play while being *mostly* unspoiled (not counting spoilers from the show, ofc), and I really felt quite a lot of trepidation while playing it through, although I never did a second playthrough so I could only just "guess" how much the stories outcome would changed depending on your choices, though, having played other TTG titles, I was aware that the story couldn't divert too much depending on your choices and while I understand why this frustrates people a lot I'll try to give my two cents as to why it was a necessary evil and kind of makes sense.
On one hand as you made abundantly clear in the video, the entire storyline was meant to be just the first part of a longer story, the fall of Ironrath was IMO the equivalent of the second act low point, and given what we know about how the rest of the story plays out in the show (for all its awfulness), it’s almost certain that things that the tide would change to the Forrester's favor thorough an hypothetical second season, reaching its climax in the aftermath of the Battle of the Bastards and with a secondary climax induced by the Long Night. In that sense it would be necessary from a narrative structure to have some predetermined plot elements such as the death of Ethan, Roderick/Asher's sacrifice and the fall of Ironrath being the foundations for how the second part of the story would have played out.
Now for my second point, I'll go a little more esoteric, while I understand people's disappointment at Telltale's failure to deliver on their companies mantra about "your choices mattering", I think you bring an interesting point about how much agency the playable characters truly have, being a relatively small house in a preestablished story with many canonical events (The Red Wedding, The Purple Wedding, the Conquest of Meereen, etc.), it makes sense that there's, realistically, very little our protagonists can do to change their fate, which IMO, could be interpreted as a very interesting read on the dichotomy between destiny and free will. Under this interpretation the fall of House Forrester reads as a Greek Tragedy, were no matter how hard our heroes try, the tragic outcome of the journey has been already predestined. You can even go further and consider it some sort of meta commentary, since it’s the game writer's who have predetermined which direction the game's plot is heading, and for better or worse, they could only chose among a very constrained storyline.
I'm sorry if it was a bit of a word salad but I just wasn't sure about how else to word my opinions 😅
It may be useful to show footage of different characters as you talk about them, at least when you're giving the overview. Great video otherwise!
I think it’s a pretty good game and that’s coming from someone who did not really like Telltale.
My only real issue, which is something you brought up is that the ending is just a lackluster cliffhanger.
You play through this story making some very tough decisions, all for it ultimately to end with the houses fate being uncertain and the player being forced to decide for their own how the Forresters faired for the rest of the series.
We’ll just never know if they ever reclaim their home, if they survive the long night or even what becomes of the whitehills.
It’s a disappointing ending to a game that was so driven towards narratives and the idea of actions having consequences, since we never see the full rewards or consequences for our decisions play out.
This is high level coping. It’s a fun game but the game is ultimately pointless. If you have no ability to change the outcome of the game there’s no point to it. If you can’t win a game it’s an exhibition. You play games you watch exhibitions.
Eh sort of. Out of all the telltale games there’s quite a few different endings in this one compared to others. And according to what devs had said the 2nd season was going to be quite ambitious. There’s quite a lot of characters you can either have live or die by the end, all up to what you choose. But you’re right that you don’t impact the narrative THAT much, only really who carries out the narrative, I.e. having Asher as lord at the end of the game instead of Rodrick
Ayy Marxist ASOIAF stuff. Why hasn't youtube recommended this earlier.
Nostalgia is talking for your guys. The game had too many mystery boxes (the family measter had a secret for sure) everything goes wrong no matter what you choose (I didn't need to kill Ramsey but I DIDN'T need the 20 good men to show up to kill Ethan after locking him up outside) I didn't need to choose between Asher and Rodrick to create last season drama when Mira was doomed now matter what. This was supposed to be a side story enriching the lore of the ASOIAF series while the main show was going on (Mira can be spotted in S5 if you know where to look) yet the Forresters aren't mentioned in the show proper. It's a waste of time that could've been better. The song of Ethan's twin mourning her family's death was good though. And I love how pointless Dany was too, considering before S8 ruined her she was true protagonist of the series.
Where is Mira in season 5?
Yeah it’s not tragedy when you are screwed no matter what choices you make
@purple-25377 This game's fatal problem is its decision to have a second season. Now the obvious reason for that is that no second season was ever made, but that's not what I'm talking about.
As soon as they started designing the game around the expectation of a season 2, it locked in the aspect of the game that myself and many others find so frustrating. In order to do a second season, your first season has to end in approximately the same place regardless of the choices you took.
You can't allow for too much divergence, or you will be making two three or even four games instead of one. What is the second season like if you save the Forresters vs. if they are doomed? Pretty much impossible to program that. So it's close to as good as this game could have been, but unfortunately there is a low ceiling to that because of the decision the designers made early on in the process
@purple-25377 Yeah, without real player agency you're really just "playing" a long cutscene with occasional quicktime events. You don't mind as long as you feel like the game is delivering on its promise of telling you a story where your choices are meaningful. Unfortunately it becomes pretty clear to just about everyone midway through their second playthrough that the game is not delivering anything close to its promise, and they're left with a quicktime event movie that calls itself a game.
Like I said, it all comes down to deciding to do a second season. If they hadn't done that, then it actually would be possible to do a "golden path" playthrough where you make exactly the right choices and save the Forrestors, only with lots of other unusual and interesting outcomes for the various plots in the game. WIthout having to worry about where Season 2 would start, they could do that. Unfortunately, they planned for a sequel and the player is railroaded into ruin no matter what they do, which isn't fun or satisfying IMO.
It doesn't even make for a particularly good story - because you know the inevitable result, it doesn't really feel like a family being tragically brought down as a consequence of their poor choices but as people futilely trying to scrape out an existence in a world that is actively maliciously trying to bring them down for no reason other than the writers decided they need to die. You're not watching the struggle of doomed heroes, you're just watching chumps who don't know there's no way out. The futile play experience makes it difficult to enjoy the story on its own merits, because you KNOW the writers aren't playing fair with you or the characters. There are no right choices and no wrong choices, only struggle then death
@purple-25377 It's not "realistic" because in real life the universe is not actively trying to kill you and everyone you know regardless of the choices you make. It doesn't matter if you are genuinely trying to save your family or if you are deliberately making bad choices in order to get everyone killed, the game will end the same way. That's not realism, its just your attempt to rationalize the writers decision to give a game where you supposedly determine the story one ending
How dramatic is a person being held at knifepoint if you know beforehand that that person is going to die no matter how they react? It's not dramatic, because the universe has decided that that person will die no matter what and you know that. It changes how you perceive the scene.
Ditto with Ramsay's first scene - the first time you go through it it's great, incredibly shocking. Then you play it again....and again...and again, and the twist is a lot less satisfying when you know that Ethan is dead no matter what choices you make. Kiss Ramsay's ass and give him everything he wants? Dead. Stand up to Ramsay and assert your rights? Dead. Try to chart some sort of middle ground? Dead. That's not satisfying, and it's not realistic, it's just railroading
I fucking love this game! I played it in high school and it makes me so sad that it’s so rare to play now. Literally the best telltale made for sure!
I absolutely agree. I was blown away by the game when I played it.
-E
@@bytemarx8520
@@6la6ni6 I know right? I really wish they would release this game back onto steam.
I'd argue that Tales from the borderlands and the wolf among us were better, especially if you're familiar with their respective lore, but the story here was very compelling if not depressing sometimes too. I only wish this was canon to the books and not the show... considering their incomparable quality lol.
@@12354rony you’re in the majority with that opinion so you barely have to argue at all :P not a ton of people have played this game (and a lot of people who did didn’t even like it) and I just find that a shame I suppose.
I found this game not so good. The Walking Dead is Telltales best game.
I never got into the walking dead so I can't really comment.
-E
Hard agree, I am a massive ASOIAF fan but this game is not nearly as good as Walking Dead, Batman, or A Wolf Among Us
Wait, so playing the game on a physical actually works? What kind of disc did you buy? The Game of the Year Edition?
I was a console version of the game.
@bytemarx8520 I know it was a console version, that's not what I'm what I'm asking. What the disc you used the Game of the Year edition.
Cause I've wanted to play this game too and want to play it via the disc. But idk if buying the disc will work cause you know, sometimes you have to buy the episodes separately.
@@ytwyvern4240 Oh I see. Well it was for the PS4 and the version of the disc I played on had all the episodes except the last which was downloaded. Although it briefly stopped working while I was playing it.
@bytemarx8520 I thought you couldn't download them anymore?
I ask, cause I to want to play Telltale games that are no longer available. But with this info, should I even bother buying them?
Wtf who gave this game of the year
Anyone else find a weird comfort to telltale games i got every one of them. i didn't eithen have to like the subject they were based on. This was one of my favourites