Why Europe is Building a 57KM Tunnel Through a Mountain?
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- čas přidán 24. 06. 2023
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Throughout the centuries, numerous transportation routes have been developed to connect the eternal city of Rome to the rest of Europe. Initially, roads traversed the Alpine valleys, but as technology advanced, tunnels through the mighty Alps emerged. Nowadays, we witness the marvel of base tunnels that span the foothills of the Alps, facilitating efficient railway connections.
In our previous videos, we explored remarkable tunnels like the Brenner Base Tunnel linking Austria and Italy, as well as the Lötschberg, Ceneri, and Gotthard Tunnels connecting Switzerland and Italy. Today, our focus shifts to the Mont Cenis Base Tunnel, forging a vital link between France and Italy.
This tunnel's construction is an integral part of the ambitious high-speed rail project connecting Lyon and Turin. However, the project hasn't been without its fair share of controversies. From protests and skyrocketing costs to questionable justifications, political manipulation, and a multitude of stakeholders with competing interests, the journey to realize this ambitious railway project has been anything but smooth.
Join us as we uncover the complexities surrounding the Mont Cenis Base Tunnel and delve into the fascinating world of railway politics, engineering marvels, and the challenges faced in bringing nations closer together through efficient rail connectivity.
Share your thoughts with us in the comment section!
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#railway #engineering #construction
As controversial as it is, reducing the travel time by 2h30 hours from France to Italy would make planes way less interesting especially with more competition from different train operators
This line makes travel from most of western europe to the other sides of the alps by train much more viable, not just from paris.
These projects are just nesesary in creating an efficient high speed rail system troughout europe if we want to keep pushing back airtravel across europe, hence the large involvement of the eu.
Almost a dozen similar projects are under way across europe and will create an incredible rail system connecting the entirety of the european union with highspeed rail.
One of the many many things that could never have been realised without the EU! 👍
@@baronvonlimbourgh1716 The EU is funded by its members so it's not like the EU is giving presents to its members.
@@Tsukoninnobody wrote about EU presents, so what is your comment about? Is your point about transferring money to a bigger entity that is thereby able to develop and fund projects for the common good that would otherwise have never been able to materialise?
Belgium is waiting for this project as they are planning to introduce a highspeed train from brussel to milan which will only take less then 5u30 hours if the base tunnel is completed and even 6u30 hours from Amsterdam. These italian antifa activaist font know what they want. They hate cars and planes due to polurion yet when a revolutionary project like these openels the border to italy and east europe even closer and is more green energy efficient but yet they sobatage it.
@@Tsukonin it is essential in making these projects possible. This line would never be built if france and italy had to fund it on their own. This way the entirety of europe chips in because it in the end it will bennefit every country in the eu.
Getting every country to contribute to projects they bennefit from as well but are located in other countries is just way to complicated and would absorb every countries government completely constantly negotiating terms and bennefits and whatever, if it even ever would result in any project being realised.
The eu as an overarching organisation simplifies all these border crossing projects, big and small, enormously. Without it we would still be living like americans.
Very often what I see missing for those who criticize this project is imagining a future of an interconnected Europe, both in terms of us as citizens, the common market and vision of a Europe united in differences. It is unimaginable to get to Paris from Turin in four hours, and these are precisely the projects we need to give us all a fair chance for a better future.
Exactly. And this project is just a small part of a huge project that will connect the entire EU with high speed rail. Something everyone bennefits from and an essential part in replacing most of the air travel across europe in the future.
Some people just lack the ability to look at things from a macro perspective.
Actually, using Frecciarossa, you can go from Milan to Paris in 6:15, the TGV from Garibaldi requires 45 more minuted since it still lacks ERTMS/ETCS level 2, but I really think that this is going to change since the system is an European Standard and France will adopt it.
You see that the use of 300 km/h just from Turin to Milan cuts 45 minutes to the trip.
Now imagine this: with the new Frejus tunnel train will go much faster (220 km/h) on a much shorter (somewhat more than one half of the old line) without need to climb to 1.295 meters above sea level. You could go from Turin to Paris in less than 4 hours.
No TAV are poor drones piloted by private interests: NIMBYs, pseudopoliticians seeking visibility. And they think that they are VIPs themselves if they travel by (low cost) airplanes.
Those talking about traffic decrease forget that a 2 engines train is too small and the 3 engine train requires 2 crews, skyroketing costs: once I asked a preventive for a 2 railcars for a touristic trip of about 2 hours in each direction; of the requested 3,200.00€ about 140€ were for the rolling stock...
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
@@kfhroe8262 laughable opinion.
Wouldn't a more integrated Europe be exactly the thing opposed by people against such project deep in their heart? People who call themselves "environmentalist" are more than often merely nativeist and localist, rejecting things that are more advanced and further away even if they are actually more environmentally friendly.
Its not controversial for me. I live in Torino and know a small amount of French. Being able to be in Lyon and onward quickly and easily would be a huge benefit between both our nations.
A recent poll even stated that 81% in the region Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes were in favor of the tunnel, while only 8 % were opposed to it so...
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
@@kfhroe8262 no it isn't
As for the current tunnel, there will be a mixed traffic. The it will make journeys way faster. Yet the old tunnel should still be used for low cost journeys I think.
These projects are controversial not for the local population but only for environmentalist groups from elsewhere.
Most controversial project in Europe? Stuttgart 21: Hold my beer
Yes I thought it was going to be about Stuttgart (yet again) as well. But this was much more interesting.
Compared to this S21 protests where childs play. There where tough fights and for many this project is pure fraud.
@@arnoldhau1 yeah i did not just think about the protest, but public perception in general, and with Stuttgart 21 it is not a large benefit for the rail traffic. They basically just bury the trains underground with no real benefit for passengers or fraight. This new line through the alps has seen more protests, but also more people who think it is a good idea. Stuttgart 21 is not completely useless, but with that cost they could have improved the rail infrastructure around Stuttgart in a much better way. It costs too much for very debatable benefits, that's the difference
S21 will soon become a model for the way to get these 19th century dead- end- stations transformed into go- through- stations, and the fancy looking Kelchstützen will become a must have in London, Paris, and Frankfurt.
@@andreasarnoalthofsobottka2928 hope they don't just build it with 8 platforms next time
The repeated stories with big infrastructure projects are protest groups forming to focus on every imaginable counter-argument, and then the project becoming loved after completion, when the benefits become obvious. I've seen that with big sea-crossing projects around Denmark, and even observed how the sea bottom environment actually looks to benefit when the infrastructure is in place.
Astro-turfing is a cheap and effective tactic!
This line is no way controversial, it benefits from the support of an overwhelming proportion of French and Italian populations, including in local valleys-I live in the alps in Savoie, I do not know a single person opposed to this project. Just because a few marginal far left groups chose this project as a rallying cause doesn’t make it controversial. The protestors from Susa Valley are a minority of selfish NIMBYists.
@salahidin
We see this all time in the Americas. In the United States, any metro or rail project is immediately attacked by the far-right and fossil-fuel/automobile corporations. In Mexico, the Tren Maya that is supported by nearly all the Maya and other Mexicans, as well, is being attacked by leftists, "environmentalists" and self-appointed "indigenous" activists.
Sounds like most of the opposition is coming from those with investments in road and air transport - and those willing to do their bidding.
Claiming a railway is not feasible based on lower traffic volume due to declining industry is the best reason to build a railway in the first place.
Historically good transportation in conjunction with human capital is the engine of industrial growth, especially if your region is not rich in natural resources.
And even that now there is talk and action to reindustrialise (though it's difficult)
I am very supportive of this project. The majority is just as usual not very verbal
A very controversial project in italy is the built of the bridge through the strait between sicily and mainland italy
I can never keep up with that project, it seems to get cancelled and renewed about once per Italian government, which sometimes feels like 5 times a year
@@CD23_06how about with China money and technology
@@carkawalakhatulistiwa It's about neither money nor technology, but about political will. Money is there cause they have shown in later years that this excuse only was a tool to underinvest in our health system and infrastructures, and we do have the technology to build bridges. Bloody hell we're one of the major industrial powers in the world, if Turkey managed to build the longest suspension bridge in the world why shouldn't we? It's just political will and a matter of consideration of the territories where the Bridge will be built: Calabria is the poorest region in Italy and Sicily follows suit, both have strong mafia organizations ('Ndrangheta and Cosa Nostra) and are perceived as wastelands which everybody flees. Choosing to invest and spend money there to finally have some results is a brave challenge that would also require transparence, anti-mafia regulations and enforcement and will to recognize Sicily and Calabria and the whole South as equal regions.
One of the many awesome projects made possible by the EU. There are almost a dozen of these projects ongoing troughout europe, creating an incredible high speed rail system connecting every corner of the european union.
This system is essential in our ability to push back air travel across europe more and more in the future.
The only way to push back against air travel is to legislate against, ie to ban it altogether.
Yeah, unfortunately, other than Via Baltica, virtually all of these projects are in Western Europe right now. Why not fund some projects in countries where there are no stupid people protesting and that would actually welcome these projects, for example Romania, Bulgaria, Greece?
@@Tsukonin nonsense. Offering a good alternative is also effective. Combine that with other incentives and you don't need any legislation. Who wants to fly if a hsr train is available?
The job of government is to shape behaviour in a way most benneficial for society, simply banning it doesn't change behaviour, it just makes peoples lives misserable as you push everyone into cars.
And how would you practicly legislate against it. It would involve legislating away single routes.
@@wyqtor most of them are in the east actually, which was the main objective of the entire longterm project. There is a big north south line going to be built from the baltics to the medeteranian and some links west to link it up with western european systems.
And one between scandinavia and germany as well connecting them to the rest of europe too.
@@wyqtor The northern part of Europe is pretty flat. No point building all sorts of tunnels in Poland, for example. Now, a high-capacity line from Rotterdam to Tallinn, that makes more sense. And that's what's being built right now. Although there's Germany in between, which is the bottleneck at the moment.
23:24 small nit: Jacques Chirac was president of France, Lionel Jospin was the prime minister
21:45 The audio says 2030, but the screen says 2023. I assume that 2030 is correct.
There are vested interrests in not having rail transport , road transport and air are making too much profit
"unwanted" only by some environmentalist activist who refuse to see how the old tunnel and line (built 150 years ago) are not up to modern standards.and safety.
These enviromentalist are supporting the motorway stopping the new tunnel. They don't understand why we need a new railway line because they say that now there railway traffic is too poor, so we don't need a new line.
But I say we need the new line because we have not so much train on the old line and that's because the current line is too old and not good for modern trains
@@Arrosticin0 No the real argument is that we should trade and travel less even with our neighbors if we want to fulfill our climate goals.... which makes sense, but is still pretty sad, we should be able to trade and travel with very little energy use to ou neighbors at least, what can enable the new line and tunnel...
Yeah the real issue is that they are "degrowth-ers" (they want a "degrowth") but most refuse to acknowledge this and prefer to use bad arguments.
The problem with the "degrowth" idea is, whatever the severity of climate change to come, the reality or not or extense of needing to "degrow", that the population will not accept a "degrowth" and will rather splurge in consumption and emissions, considering there's no future left.
Consuming, traveling, flying, burning every fossil energy there is like it's going out of style...
Whatever the environmental cost (massively and dishonestly inflated by opponents) of this line / tunnel system, it has the merit of giving hope while offering an alternative to the worst GHS emitting means of transportation.
Without this beacon of hope, among others, people won't change their behaviors and they'll go head-on into denial, "burn like there's no tomorrow" mode.
Certainly the worst possible scenario.
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
@@kfhroe8262 that's bullshit. The new railway line will be suitable for passengers and freit both, as the others base Tunnels in the alps
I took a TGV from Paris Gare du Lyon to Milano Centrale in 2011 or so, beautiful trip!
Looking forward to Rome-London, Rome-Madrid and Rome-Paris by several competitive operators Kudos to this project
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
@@kfhroe8262 Nope, also for people. Where do you heard that?
Another use of the train tracks are lorries on trains which is why you want to prevent the Alpine tunnel fires the area around the HSR tunnel was home to the 2001 Frejus Tunnel fire that includes the more known Mont Blanc tunnel fire 1999.
Correct!
Infact the Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
Great Video as always. Can you make a Video of the EU corridor from Paris to Budapest? The new Highspeed Line Wendlingen-Ulm ist already in use. Stuttgart 21 is ready in a few years and in the future a New Highspeed Line Ulm-Augsburg is planned. Alone S21 has over 50km of new tunnels and more to come (Pfaffensteigtunnel) to connect Stuttgart to Zurich faster, with a new Stop at Stuttgart Airport.
Interesting proposal. We will put it on our to-do list.
Really cool work. At 5'40" you say that traffic stops in Maurienne valley due to the incident in the tunnel, but monte bianco tunnel link italy and france in Aosta valley, not maurienne valley that is on the new turin-Lyon HS railway
While Jacques Chirac was the French Prime Minister during the 1970s and 1980s, in 2001 he was President.
Eh, the people who oppose it are mainly just selfish. It has many obvious benefits.
You're finally back 🎉🎉🎉. I have been waiting for your video for a long time!
It was a great challenge to make a video on this topic from a slightly different perspective. But due to the lack of transparency and inconsistent information, the translation from Italian and French, this video required more time than usual.
@@RailwaysExplained After watching the video I can only say - well done. Congratulations on the video.
As a potential future tourist of Lyon and Torino, I approve this project. Will make me happy to save 2 hours of travel time.
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
Maybe traffic along this route has declined because it's not currently economically viable, compared to other options. It will be far, far better for the climate(rail burns less CO2 than air or road transit)as well as for political stability, considering you can't always count on China shipping things by sea in the current political climate. And seriously, the current route got turned off for 3 whole years because of a fire? It's called building a robust, resilient, and redundant traffic network. Under no circumstances should a community be effectively cut off because of a single incident.
The grades you mentioned are a definite hindrance to reach speeds above 220 km/h. In any case the old line needs serious upgrading, both for the clearance issues you mentioned and to reduce its noise footprint. Also, to improve freight traffic on this corridor and its contemporary safety requirements the old line is in need for desperate upgrading.
Thanks for the vid. Very well produced as usual
Bigger projects, more ppl have some problems with it. It doesn't means that it is "controversial".
11.05 talking about italian clashes and showing french pictures
Another great video. I hate mentioning one point though. Jacques Chirac was President of France and not Prime Minister.
Thanks for noticing that. Unfortunately, we missed it. There is so much written in the script for this video 😅 Honestly this video is the most difficult for us so far.
@@RailwaysExplained You excelled then.
It is important to note that only a small percentage of the criminals engaging in violent protests are individuals residing in the areas affected by this essential project; the majority of these criminals are anarchists and far-left antagonists who come from other regions of Italy and protest against the base tunnel not because of the project itself but as a means to challenge the established order. In order to gain the support of the general public, they have disseminated numerous falsehoods about the project's dangers.
I think the key benefit for this is the reduction in time between Paris and Milano. 7hrs is too long for most people, but 4.5 hours is short enough to make most choose it over flying. This also positively impacts connections from Swiss cities like Geneva and Lausanne to Torino and Milano.
Thank you for a good video. Certainly an impressive project.
Thanks, superb video.
The EU is trying to encourage people to use alternatives from air travel on environmental grounds. With Europe's comparatively short distances International rail is often a viable option to catching a plane, especially when looking at City Centre to City Centre journey times.
As for Europe's most controversial Megaproject? Not even close to HS2 in England!
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
@@kfhroe8262 It will be for both. Why do you think that the TGV service will not use the base tunnel to save hours on the Paris-Milan/Rome routes?
The regular stopping service from Lyon to Turin will probably continue to use the current tunnel as it serves Modane and all the other towns on both sides of the border
@@bfcmik AFAIK the stations are for (un)loading goods only. that was the original scope.
Someone told me it was changed to goods and people, but nobody can point me to the new destination...
@@kfhroe8262 Not the case : in the project, you have a lot of work being done in Saint Jean de Maurienne and Susa in order to (re)create completely new passenger stations for HST that will run in the tunnel. That way, you can have connections with the regional trains that will continue to use the conventional line.
Why would anybody be against it? I just don't understand?
Nimby that's all
is controversial only for nimby
in my experience the "controversial" and "unwanted" is a political experiment like brexit to test how shortsighted common people can be and how you can manipulate them . Nothing wrong with a faster tunnel to avoid airtraffic
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
I mean arguably the Kerch bridge was more controversial...
Also China in response to high-tech sanctions imposed ban all EU milk-based products and list growing. Cargo transit will decline drastically.
the first point of the opponents is really stupid. imagine having a car in a bad shape so you dont use it because of that. and now you wanna buy a new car and someone comes up and says, you dont use your car anyways.....
carl marx once said. (translated) the beeing determines the consciousness. or "Das Sein bestimmt das Bewusstsein" (german). wich means, you know what the state of beeing is so you act upon it and you think that you cannot change it.
It was not mentioned, but I suspect that local opposition is predicated on a belief that towns currently on the rail and road paths will be bypassed and lose out economically, even as a much broader set of people across Europe benefit. The ability to get cars and trucks off the road speaks for itself and the ability to get from Milan to Paris in 4.5 hours, would make the train comparable in time to flying (including getting to/from the airport to city center and getting through security), which is remarkable. A number of significant rail projects will be completed in the late 2020s / early 2030s, and these will knit Europe much closer together economically.
"Talpomania", si sarebbe detto un tempo da noi...
Ehez a videóhoz lehetne magyar nyelvű feliratot hozzá adni???? Nagyon érdekel a téma!!! Köszönöm !
It seems that a replacement for the old tunnel will be necessary in the near future. However, that time may not be now, but will benefit further in the future. There is little freight benefit for this tunnel. The only benefit is environmentally. The cost of the project is not that much, however.
You are wrong about that. There is a huge benefit for freight trains : currently, climbing loaded freight trains must stop at St Jean de Maurienne because of the very steep climb after that station (30 per mille). They usually need to have 2 additional locomotives added at the rear of the train (with, of course, another driver in it). That adds a big amount of time and cost to the trip.
That's one of the main elements that makes the train less competitive than the trucks on this line.
With the base tunnel, the biggest climb is avoided, so you won't need to stop the train to add the locomotives.
14:52 *million passengers
14:49 apparently, each passenger weighs one ton.
I didn't know Italy and France had such an obesity problem.
21:44 2023 is not 2030
Bravo Railways Explained 😉
Glad you liked it!
Thanks you for this informative report. Please go on and do not care about those complaining about the voice because of the intonation or not being from a native speaker … you know those who mistake the finger for the moon.
There is a mistake at 6:12, J. Chirac was President, not Prime Minister at that time.
Those who don't get the value of this project need to think bigger: the EU wants to enable a strategic EU-wide East West rail corridor. That's why the EU is funding a lot of it even if France and Italy are also doing so for local reasons. This is about Portugal-Spain-France-Italy connecting to the North - South Scand-Med axis and to Eastern European networks.
How even would one place a cig into an intake critical to not go up in flames at such a speed in a seperate tunnel-tube ?
16:50 The French public personalities don't want to improve all routes that are already there (existing) , they only want to improve non-boring trains and routes (exiting).
14:46 A question: Should this read "3 million passengers", or is "3 million tons" correct? If so, what's the actual figure if you count passengers?
Great video, by the way. I imagine this was not easy to put together!
You should read "3 million passengers". We made a mistake during editing 🥲
@@RailwaysExplained Thanks! 🙂
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
Great video, very well done. I'm French and I fully support the project. However the €12 billion investment needed on the French side is very steep indeed, considering the overall benefits. Since France has other plans to build high speed lines (Bordeaux to Toulouse and another branch to Dax, improvements between Montpellier and Perpignan for a continuous HSL in two phases, Marseille-Nice and other investments like the Lyon bypass and south Paris bypass) and large investments into the rest of the lines (an overall €100 billion budget on 20 years is being discussed to rejuvenate the old network and create many RER network in large cities', also possibly a new Normandy line, etc.), this project should not impede them. And since this is a EU-inspired project to connect countries together, not just France and Italy by the way, EU should finance both sides of the base tunnel, for equity's sake, at a minimum 50% and ideally 75% of the cost of the project. Cost is indeed the main problem for France (Greens wanting to stop it are in a minority but hold positions as local mayorships concerned with the line and their arguments are absolutely ridiculous).
Why are rail projects always so controversial?
Very interesting.
HS2 must run it close 😑
The figure of 168 freight trains a day to move 25Mtonnes a year seems odd. That is 7 trains an hour, carrying only 400 tonnes.
why diose the grand st bernard p italo=swiss pass not have a rail line trew it as all othet passes thought the alps do.
21:40 small mistake. You said 2030, but shows 2023
Yes, it was too late when we noticed...
The main advantage is joining 2 countries much more efficiently. It may not now be a "High Speed Railway" just because some faceless bureaucrat has decided that it doesn't meet the new definition, but so what? It achieves far more than the useless High Speed 2 line in Britain which will join a suburb of London with a suburb of Birmingham with poor connections for onward travel and not even connected to High Speed 1.
The main benefit of HS2 is NOT the improved travel times for passengers from London to the North. It's the fact that HS2 will free up much-needed capacity for freight on the existing West Coast main line, which is already amongst the busiest lines in Europe for passengers, with few slots left for freight. I suspect that you knew that already and wanted to be mischievous.
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
The transportation decline be even more by political reasons of sanctions to Russia, which reduced cargo movement from all EU to East by 70% and may end completely, although EU produced food products still arrive in Moscow as it's becoming even more import dependent, but political pressure is such high from both sides that cargo may be stopped for a period. Cargo trucks lines and the customs borders show this problem.
This is related, because France is the maybe last supermarket chain operator in Russia still and Italy is one of the few which food products still arrive at supermarket shelves in Russia.
People have the propensity to moan about any progressive initiatives 🙄
Always has been and always will be.
Complaining and negativity are simply the easiest political messages and people also just love to be told they are the victim.
It is intellectually easy and simple. That will always make it easy to spread.
21:42 *2030
I could think of several more controversial projects in europe, but they were abandoned when germany lost ww2.
O TAV TAV TAV, i've seen the building site and i just want to go to france easier
The Maersk ad is so weird, and didn't expect to see one on CZcams
Passanger = 1Ton
How about china tibet megaprojec
You mean that one?
czcams.com/video/MuBT8f4VDi8/video.html
I’m surprised that the line is not up to the high speed services elsewhere in France 400km/hr, seems a false economy in the long run.
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
@@kfhroe8262 The base tunnel is just for goods and not TGV passenger services to Italy, very strange? I misunderstood project I thought base tunnel project same as Austrian and Swiss base tunnels, high speed rail for freight and passengers.
@@jeanjacques9980 You thought well. The tunnel will be for good and passengers as well. @kfhroe8262 is only a troll
As usual 👍🏾😎
;-) Don't build more railways, the greens don't want more railways, the greens want us to drive our cars ;-)
... Did anyone else get this impression? Building railway tracks is bad, say the greens. I don't understand them any more.
No they don't.
@@merzto oh yes, they are against Stuttgart 21 or against the Semmering Tunnel and against the Brenner Tunnel for example. They are all pure railway tunnels, make railway connections faster and more convenient.
@@richard--s don't mix up local Nimbys with "the greens"
@@merzto the local nimbys are people of the green party.
@@richard--s and the CDU and the SPD and the AFD and the FDP whats your point. The green party is not anti rail even if you hait them.
No, because HS2.
I HAVE KNOWN O THE PROJECT SINCE 1995 AND FOR TOTAL COST THEN OF 6 BILLIONS EUROS AND WILL BE COMPLETED FOR NOT LATEST THAN 30 BILLIONS PLUS SEVEARL YEARS BEHIND AND THE IT HAS LOST TRANSPORT POSITION
Hey bro please try to narrate your videos in a different tone of voice. It gets really tiring after a few minutes even though the topic is very interesting
I've always assumed that the dull narration was computer-generated. But I agree - a real human voice would make these already very interesting videos even better.
Don't give too much airtime or credit to the French ecolo-fascists. They don't want nuclear power, or trucks on the road, or tunnels for trains under the montains.
how long is system? 2x57 km + all access tunnels? cant be all that shorter than brenner tunnels...
People weigh a ton now lol 😂?
Italy has been one of the poor nations in Europe for a long time but these new base tunnels are going to go a far way in changing that as they intagrate and bring Italy closer to the rest of Western Europe. These tunnels will make projects that seam less viable now, viable in the near future, and will be the catalyst for construction of the road/railway Bridge of Massena Straight and later on a Adriadic Sea Tunnel to South Europe and Asia, and for the first time turn Southern Italy from a backward region far away from the center of economic centers into the center of Europe as Sycily will become a Transit Hub for all of Europe's passing ships/trains/planes/trucks!!
Define "poor", please.
@@TheAllMightyGodofCod in compared to Northern Italy and much of Western Europe, South Italy is far less developed. That is why this/these base tunnels being built threw the Alps are so important. Because with the increase of traffic as E.U. connects all its raillines and trains begin to cross national borders and Africa is connected to Europe, Italy will be a major destination. But South Italy is far behind North Italy as far as infrustructure so these tunnels will allow for the money to expand highways and railways for future projects like Massina rail/road bridge and Adraitic Sea Tunnel that I'm sure will be build sometime within the century that can't be built now because the money isn't there. if you look at articles of Massina Bridge/Tunnel project the first thing they will tell you is the first thing that need to be built are new and expanded highways and railroad lines on the mainland and Sisilia.
@@cliffwoodbury5319 I just asked you to define poor, if you didn't want to, you didn't need to do it. You could simply not answer me..
As you choosed not to define poor, as I asked you, I will ignore your very long text. Sorry
@@cliffwoodbury5319as an italian, you're insane. Where would an adriatic tunnel go? Between puglia and albania? That's 70 km and the sea is 700 meters deep, and a seismic zone
first off, poor regions almost always have worst infrastructure, and S. Italy has far worst infrastructure than North Italy and that is because it is poorer. and I know you know that so stop acting stupid. and the English tunnel is almost 25 miles long and was built over 30 years ago, so we probably could build a tunnel under the Adriatic with the technology we have now, but in 50 years or so this would be nothing.
Unless I didn't hear you I don't think you stated how much time it would knock off a trip between the 2 locations!!!
It is at czcams.com/video/9jz-RfCEdx4/video.html (19:32 into the video)
@@martinsportfoto2423 THANK U!!!!! I love these videos and usually don't miss a thing so I appriacate that. That is a huge difference!!!!
The Turin Lyon line is only for goods, not people.
Not controversial for me (but then I don't live in the Susa valley area).
Climate breakdown is now an established reality. Air travel currently represents approx 2% of global CO² emissions but its contribution to this total is increasing rapidly and there is no realistic prospect of zero emission powered energy sources for air travel any time in the next 100 years! Given this context the recent initiative advanced by European train operators ("Metropolitan Network: A strong European railway for an ever closer union") urging political leaders to speed up construction of High Speed Rail infrastructure is both timely and instructive.
If High Speed Rail is to provide a credible alternative to short haul intra-European air travel, real High Speed (250km/h speeds and above) lines are an absolute must and linking up existing National High Speed networks with each other, doubly so - that's why projects such as the already in operation Gotthard Base Tunnel, the under construction Brenner Base Tunnel, Mont Cenis (or Mont D'Ambin) Base Tunnel featured here and other missing High Speed track links such as the section between Figures (in Spain) and Montpellier (in France) are pivotal - in the absence of an effective high speed rail network, guess what; all policy initiatives aimed at delivering significant modal shift from short haul air to High Speed Rail will fall well short of their aims!
The impact of plonking a high-capacity railway line in an idyllic valley must not be underestimated. It's easy to paint the protesters as a bunch of NIMBYs, but also unfair.
Yes, trains are more environmentally friendly than any other form of motorised transportation, but building a railway line isn't. Not having trains running is far more environmentally friendly than to have them. Obviously, in the grand scheme of things, it works out worse for the environment, but not specifically for the Susa valley.
The question is, though, where else can they build it? Is there actually any place where it wouldn't cause some sort of offence, or bother the people that live there?
And whilst everybody can find some numbers and statistics to support their arguments, looking at decreasing traffic volume is pretty pointless without taking a holistic look at the entirety of transportation. Why did those numbers go down? That's important to know.
Also, the proliferation of high-speed rail operators and freight operators throughout Europe, due to the liberalisation of the market, has been remarkable. We now have the Italians running trains between France and Spain. Who would have thought that two decades ago? And the consumer is the one who benefits, because operators can no longer assume to have a monopoly.
Connecting Europe, yes, fabulous and all that. Maybe people can stop being angry at Germany for WW2; it's about time. Maybe trains can help, who knows. That sort of idealism is important and needed, but cannot be the primary motivation to start railway lines all over the continent.
Idyllic valley where there's already a motorway on which most of freight between France and Italy is transported by TRUCKS, with a long base tunnel that's currently being doubled. So, how come that noTAVs and valley dwellers fear the asbestos from the new railway but nothing's said about the motorway?
See, environmentalism can be taken seriously if it proposes alternatives. But if it's incoherent or contradictory like in this case, nobody will listen to you.
@@Hastdupech8509 I won't deny that there are a lot of people there who just want to be angry at somebody, and don't give a damn about the valley.
The real impact on the Susa Valley is reduced, the valley also have two railway lines, and a motorway and the new line, whose in the first phase will built only base tunnel and tunnel under moraine between Orbassano and Avigliana, pass only in the lower half flat part of the valley, when both old line and motorway climb up to Bardonecchia (1300 m) before to pass Frejus tunnel and continue on the french side of the Alps. Susa Valley and Maurienne valley are the only two aligned flat valley with same heights at reasonable distance where can be built an hgih performance new international railway line, the other valley are steeper on almost one side (for example Aosta valley and Arve valley: Arve valley are too steep for a standard gauge high performance railway line after a tunnel between Pre Saint Didier and Chamonix, a base tunnel between Aosta and Le Fayet are too far from main italian and french cities), other valleys don't reach border or are not at the same height on the other side of Alps or are not oriented toward Lyon or Turin...
Maurienne and Susa Valley are forced choices.
ITER has to be the biggest boondoggle in Europe.
Projects need to be discussed in public before start of construction talking above and never thinking about the opinion of environmentalists such things should require a public vote everywehre
lol, why you make the title in german and the video is in english????
CZcams has automatically translated the description and title into German if your language on CZcams is German. Everything is original in English, both the video and the title together with the description.
@@RailwaysExplained what really?!?! never seen this before lol
This is one of the opportunities that YT provides to creators to achieve greater reach
9:55 The expression ninety-three represents a value that is equal to nine times ten plus three. It is therefore meaningless to talk about two point ninety-three. The correct way to read 2.93 is two point nine three. If it were 93.93 then the correct way to read it would be ninety-three point nine three. I know I'm in a losing battle over this, but I'll keep on about it.
I thought that the most unwanted mega project in Europe is the Ukraine/Russia conflict (but that's assuming the citizens and not the governments are making the choice )
This is a crime by Puttler and Russia, not a "Project"
THe fear of those people (which i knew many of) is that they will be left in the dust like they always did. The vallys have been always traten like shit, i am from the mountains and i know how it feels to just be there for people to use and then be forgotten. What use it is if the rest of the country hasn't got the infrastructure? HSR funding is proven to be inversely proportional to "normal" transit funding, which has actually gone backwards in the last 20 years in a lot of the places here.
In summary, some people are against it because it feels like a show of muscles while the inner parts of the country are going to shit because car infrastructure is all the government and regions are able to do mostly
In Japan they found a good compromise between the people of a neighborhood and the Shinkansen company: the company was going to build a viaduct in the neighborhood but the people in the neighborhood would receive a sort of tram line built in the shoulder of the viaduct
Same story in the UK with HS2. The line will go through many towns in Southern England where the trains will never stop. THough I think the difference here is HS2 will benefit them indirectly
@@cameroncook2048 It will free up the old conventional line for more frequent service. Same in the Susa Valley, they are going to get more trains to Torino but for some reason they don't see this.
Run more normal transit and feed the HSR line with transfers. It’s not hard
@@wyqtorin other words dedicated express service via base tunnel and the existing local service gets more frequent and won’t have to share tracks with express service anymore
The narration is terrible. I hope it is AI.
You didn't talk about the environmental damages to the water sources and to the agricultural land this will create, nor the CO2 emissions of the construction of this megaproject. You didn't explain why so many public entities are not in favor of the project either, nor the ideological lense through which these megaprojects are designed by the EU. It's a quite superficial video that doesn't adress the title you chose for it, so in a way, it's clickbaity.
But what does it have in particular that made it more environmentally damaging than the other tunnels like this, from Gotthard, to Brenner, to Lötschberg. The only difference I see is that, while the areas where the brenner tunnel and the gotthard tunnel pass are growing economically, Susa valley has shrunk drastically in the last decades and this probably brought resentment between the people there. I can understand though that they don’t like being a point of passage between Milan and Paris (because the point is not linking Lyon and a post industrial city like Turin now ), but I don’t think they okayed their cards well, they basically didn’t obtain much.
What agricultural land is there in a valley between mountains? Somehow people in the Po Valley manage agriculture just fine in spite of the high-speed rail lines to Bologna (and soon to Verona and Venice) crossing between their fields. If you don't like these projects, send them to Eastern Europe, we'll be glad to build them in your place in our countries, just give us the money! We need at least one major Carpathian rail tunnel here in Romania.
Yeah, one can imagine these "ideological lenses" you are refering to. Growth, efficiency, fluidity, economy, opportunity. Bouh, what a bunch of horrific words ! The only reason people are against something that makes complete sense is that they are bored. Being against Lyon-Turin line is an easy way for them to pass time, play the "I am the good guy you are the bad guy" game, so popular in France and in Italy.
@@wyqtor 1500 hectares of agricultural lands, you can look that up on your search engine of choice. Not to mention the excavated rocks, which are only exploitable at 30% at best, so a lot of useless rocks to store somewhere near the tunnel. That's why in all projects, you need to tell tee full story, not just focus on the pros.
@@piwi2005 infinite growth on a finite planet is not possible if you didn't know already
Good info, but if you are going to use a computer voice then get one without the silly accent. There is nothing worse than these stupid computer voices which can be done much more ideally and acceptable by a human, and prefererably one with English as a first language. Not good.
It is not a computer voice 😅
My god, this comment. English pretentiousness at its best.
railroads RULZ,greta SUX ! simple as that !