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R-Values Don't Tell The Whole Story | Therm-a-Rest vs Sea to Summit
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 12. 08. 2024
- This winter I've been using two different sleeping pads. The Therm-a-rest Neoair Xtherm and the Sea to Summit Ether Light Xt Extreme. Why do these things get such long names? These pads boast 6.9 (xtherm) and 6.2 (ether) r-values which would have you thinking they are probably close in warmth. They are not. The xtherm performs light years ahead of the ether light, and it's almost half the the weight and half the thickness of its competitor.
Why is this? Why is a pad so much thicker, with a very high r-value, so much colder? The answer made me question r-value's and their validity all together.
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0:00 Two Winter Sleeping Pads
1:24 Therm-a-Rest Neoair Xtherm
3:18 Sea to Summit Ether Light Xt Extreme
5:46 R-value's Are Dumb
Great video Jon! I had the SAME conclusion. Xtherm is still king
Thanks Dan! I actually left you a comment on one of your videos once asking you if you liked the Sea to Summit (your answer was no) and what you'd recommend, and you pointed me to the xtherm. So thank you! Sedona looked rad btw
@@JonConti ha! Nice! I guess Iâm smarter than I thought đđ
Thanks to both of you for being honest. I actually bought a S2S extreme because of a few yt videos talking it up. This was before anyone had a chance to test them in the cold. Mine seems to work down to about 5°C/41°F but at 3°C/37°F I started to feel the cold. It's very comfy and I love the inflation bag but S2S needs to drop the R value rating.
Thanks boys, I've had the XT Extreme as well and got cold on it camping on the snow. In light of how different the r-value seems to be between lab and real world with the S2S, how close do you reckon the X-Lite is to the S2S Etherlight XT Extreme in terms of warmth?
Owning neither of these pads, my problem is as follows:
Since the thermarest also has a single point of inflation and deflates rather quickly when opened, both the top and bottom hemisphere need to have direct air flow between them. Allowing warm and cold air to mix, especially when moving around and itâs not fully inflated for comfort. However, assuming the thermarest has more reflecting layers, it can reflect more radiant heat allowing the user to use and keep more of its own produced heat. The drawback is that when the use has less radiant heat, the user will also receive back less heat. So basically itâs warmer when you are warm, but less so if you are not and moving around in your sleep.
Since the sea to summit uses a filling to reduce the amount of moving air, it has more bulk, but less reflecting layers. So basically less heat loss to the ground when moving around, even when not fully inflated. Since less radiant heat is reflected back, I think you lose less heat but do not reuse as much of your own warmth.
So basically take a etherlite, use the same foil layers of the xtherm and stuff it with filling. Then atleast you have best of both worlds warmth wise and it might not sound like sleeping on a bag of crisps.
But thatâs just my 2 cents on the matter.
Ps English is not my native tongue, so Iâm doing my best to convey my thoughts correctly. However I donât always succeed.
Hey makes sense to me â
s2s is much greater at 0c to me, the trade-off is great comfort at a bit more weight and volume but if you're note going into heavy winter the s2s is a keeper, my personal take. :)
Thanks for the great vid bud!
Yup. Luckily I could return mine. The sea to summit pads are super comfy but really cold compared to thermarest ones.
About the warmth:
Spot on, BUT there is another solution:
For almost any air filled sleeping pad, you can pair it with a closed cell foam pad. Put it underneath, and you can add the r-values together. But as you said, if you move around it does not help a lotâŠ
BUT if you put a very thin and light closed cell foam pad on top of your air mat, it will help alot! Your body will not hest the air in the air filled pad as much, and the moving around will not cool you down.
A soft thin (cheap) closed cell foam mat on top of a soft inflated air mat will also add comfort, in my experience đ
Another thing to add is that for a insulated air mat, it needs to be really hard inflated to achieve the rated r-value (maybe not so much the xtherm, because it is uninsulated, but reflects heat).
I have both pads, my Xtherm is slightly warmer, but not by much. Seems like the Xtherm is warmer quicker, but after a few minutes Iâm good on the s2s.
Dude awesome timing I was disappointed with my Ether light xt it was cold đ„¶ in 15°f which Isn't all that cold... guess I'll have to buy a thermarest now!!đ€Łâïžđ
Ya get the Therm-a-rest, I'd say below 25 the ether light gets cold.
@@JonConti that's a bummer!!
Thanks for the comparison. I have one in the mail. You are right photography equipment has changed quite a bit since the days of Nikon photomic and acetate film.
The sea2summit is SUPER comfy though!! Funny video brođâđ„
lol thanks, cheers
Haha, I do love my thermal camera đ, but this was an excellent video! Great comparison, great production quality. Subbed.
Awesome, thank you!
Actually, they do tell the entire story. Youâre just telling a different story.
I dont trust Sea to Summits R value. My Eatherlte is rated at 3.2 and my back is noticibly cold below 40F. Or shoulder if Im sidesleeping. Just got a TR 6.9 but hasent been cold enough to try it out.
Thanks for the review. Super legit. I was juggling in getting either one. But now, problem solved!
Glad I could help!
I don't go out in temperatures less than 25 if I can help it. But I sure as hell get cold even around 30, and now that I've identified the problem as an original mis-understanding of old R-values and some previously deceptive practices on account of Big Agnes, I'm looking for an alternative to my Q-core SLX and it'll likely be the Neo-Air X-Therm.
I just purchased the Large Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XLite and I like it alot. I've only taken it down to 25F but didn't have any cold spots.
The xtherm is great. I was sleeping on the sea to summit first around 25 and actually really liked it, it does work. But then I got the thermarest and itâs in a different league. Making this video has me rethinking r-values
I had to return my Ether Light Xt. It was cold in the high 20's. I use the Nemo Tensor Alpine and a foam pad, works great. Taken it down to the teens and worked great. Also I 100% expected the Ether Light to handle the cold with it's CLAIMED R-value and bulk. It didn't and it's just not worth it IMO.
Ya it didn't keep me warm enough either.
I used to use the s2s ether light xt reg had its down too -3 and think that was the limit for me but found it 2 narrow so I wanted a true winter pad I researched both and went for the xtherm in large because the pack size of the xt extreme is massive the large xtherm feels so comfy and very warm because the extra width lets me sleep better side stomach sleeper yes it's expensive but worth it
Ya it's worth it for sure
Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XTherm Leaks out the WingLock Valve /// I got a new one and does the same! slow leak.. Test your Valve by using a bowl or pool or anything that you can get the Valve underwater, test closed and open and see if your mat does leak before you go on the trail.. I even pop the top off and i was surprised it does not seat down to the rubber gasket! This would be easy fix for them, they just need the inside of the cap to have the round plastic under the cap to set more into the Tube around the rubber seal..
So Therm-a-Rest puts a thin mylar layer (like an emergency blanket?) inside. I bet it costs less than $10 to make one. I know there is R&D cost but $259 for a pad?
So that's the best way I could describe it, and that's what I deduced from all the research I did. Therm-a-rest does not say exactly what it is in there, but you can actually feel it when it's deflated. There is a thin layer of something that feels like a bendable piece of cardboard in the middle of the pad. And Therm-a-rest that diagram on their site I showed in the video, shows it too. Now, they say it's sewn into the middle of the pad saying they can't say how, but it involves lasers (that could mean so much and just be a marketing scheme on wording). But in layman's terms I believe that's what they achieved. They divided the pad into two hemispheres with a piece of reflective insulation that reflects the cold heat from the ground back down, and the warm heat from your body reflected back up. That's why this thing doesn't have cold spots, the two hemispheres of air don't mix nearly as much as other pads.
R-Value measures insulation, like that of a building. It does not account for movement and real life use. As for the two pads - Choi should really try the Exped Synmat UL Winter. Not the one Justin used, thatâs HyperLite Down Mat. The RED one. See video on my channel.
Itâs much more comfortable than the sea to summit. Iâm heading out to -20 this week and thatâs what Iâm bringing with me. No itâs not ultralight, but thatâs just winter gear.
But if you can be warm at -20 with a pad that weighs less than 2 pounds why wouldn't you use that one? đ€
@@JonConti because comfort > weight
@@OutdoorPrep Whaaat, are you telling me you're willing to carry an extra pound of weight in exchange for 8-10 hours of comfort and a good nights sleep? Crazy talk.
The xterm is one of the best sleeping pads i ever have used, i have used it in India in cold weathers to the south of india in very hot summer weather 51 celsius, my only complain about this matras/ pad is the top layer is not durable, after 6 weeks of use each year, in 2017/ 2018 total use of 12 weeks non stop in different climate the top layer is not silver metalic color anymore it is yellowish, if thermarest can do something to make the top layer more stronger of this xterm it will be the best sleeping pad of all time.
O wow wonder why it changed colors on you đ€
@@JonConti because of the sweat when you sleep in heavy warm weather the human sweat is so powerful that it changes the color of the sleeping pad to yellow transparant color
Am I the only one who's not really impressed with the Xtherm mattress? Maybe I had huge expectations, or maybe I'm a very cold sleeper, but I haven't felt a big defference between sleeping on the Xlite and sleeping on the Xtherm. Last time I've used it it was a few days ago, combined with a 0° F bag (Marmot Never Summer), in temperatures betwee 28F - 24F. I had two layers on top, 2 pair of pants and I almost felt cold sometimes (the mattress felt a little cold when I was turning around). I remember i felt better on much colder nights using the Xlite and a sleeping bag that didn't had the rating of this Marmot (but still a winter sleeping bag).
You are the only one unimpressed đ But the xlite uses the same technology as the xtherm. You may have a faulty one. Especially if you feel cold turning and moving around. That makes me think the internal sewing isnât right and that the cold air on the bottom of the mat is somehow mixing with the warm layer on top which shouldnât happen.
@@JonConti It's hard for me to believe that it's something wrong with my mattress, but who knows... Anyway, I don't feel the cold coming from the ground when I'm sitting on my back, only when I turn from one side to the other I feel some cold areas, but I suppose is normal, since it's hard to keep the warm air all the way for long periods of time (or maybe it has to do with compressing the sleeping bag). But I don't feel it gives warmth, or something, like some say, compared with the Xlite. I have the Uberlight too. Compared to that, both Xlite and Xtherm feels significantly warmer against cold ground. There is no doubt about that, but I can't really tell if there's a difference between Xtherm and Xlite.
It sounds counter intuitive but you may have to many clothes on.
@@cheri7828It's not the first time I hear that in order to warm the sleeping bag, you have to wear only the base layer, but it doesn't seem to work for me. From my experience, I will be even colder.
Excellent job! These are the only 2 in considering, like many other backpackers. So why am I still so hung up on the STS? Would you have chosen differently for 3 season conditions that bottom out at no less than mid 30s or so?
And what about Exped pads ???
If I understand well, then Sea to Summit should have made a winter version of their Comfort Plus pad, instead a winter version of Ether Light pad; the double independant layers should have improved insulation, blocking air from moving up and down when user is moving.
I don't know any backpacker that uses exped pads? Justin Outdoors has a great video on these pads that he did with the exped pad and these outperformed it mightily. I've talked to Dan Becker about it, he likes the Therm-a-rest. I didn't test an exped, maybe in the future. I think the comfort plus uses air sprung technology too I didn't research that one.
I just ordered the Exped Dura 8R with an R rating of 7.8. I will be using it in the Scottish Mountains in the winter. Also I will correctly use it by placing it inside my Rab Ascent 900 Sleeping bag.
@@JonConti You're missing out to be honest, maybe it's a regional thing but the exped mats are really good value, comfort and insulation!
@@toxicteabaging Hey to each their own! I love the thermarest though.
thanks. I'm not longer considering to buy this seatosummit pad...
Wise decision
Hi, was that an Exped Widget used to inflate the a Thermarest Xtherm?? I have been trying to find out if they are compatible?? Thanks.
Discovered this exact issue this summer/shoulder season. My Ether Light was always chilly, while my friend on her thermarest was super toasty. I'm curious how one of the winter rated Exped mats compares, as I was considering one as an upgrade to my S2S pad. Going to try out my brother's old DLX 9 Exped for car camping in March and find out just how warm it is. Passed the comfort test so far.
I researched the Exped mats and did not hear great things. But honestly once I found the xtherm my search was over.
is it possible to blow up the neo air xlite nxt with the mouth without mold creating in the pad and without reduced isolation because of moisture going in the pad?
Short, sweet comparison.
I cut a lot out of it for sure. Pumps and valve comparisons, who needs that đ
Everytime when I want to search about something right for me what is the best you can get I absolutely can't understand why the one side says this is the best and comfiest and the warmest. And the other side says o no don't buy it it is so cold and uncomfortable. Man I hate this
"right for me" is the phrase I would point out there.
@@JonConti yeah you might be right. But I saw a lot of reviews of outdoor youtubers in really cold conditions. The one guy camps on - 30° and says o it's the warmest and best thing you can get on the market and on the other side you have a guy who says that is the worst mat I've ever bought. It's uncomfy and the cold temperatures get threw the mat. why are so extreme differences? Not only a bit of I don't like this so much and that could be better, no its completely different. Anyways I have to make my own decision
Good info Jon!
Thanks! đ
Great info
Cheers đ»
Sometimes i really don't get it - if you guys are paid for the tests or not, but saying that these to are only to consider in winter... You have to do something wrong or you need +30 deg at home for comfort.
I like to sleep warm. I was sleeping in -11 on mat with r-value 3,1 and it was really really comfy.
I think that everyone should try his own equipments and stands like this are strange, may cause confusion to newcomers.
Sleeping in -11 on a pad with a 3.1 r-value, now thatâs strange.
@@JonConti unfortunately cannot post here photos. I don't want even to mention a cold sleeper friend with decathlon mat with rval 1,6 (for me it was not cold but not comfy in 0 on it).
Check out the exped synmat and downmat pads. Itâs all about the insulation in the pads. I particularly like the ones with built in pumps.
Thanks Iâll check that out! These two have built in pumps. The bag of the sea to summit is a pump which is cool.
EXPED downmat 9. EXPED Duramatt 8. Both at least 7.6 Rvalue. I live in Alaska and I backpack and camp down to -30F actual. The Sea to Summit I bought blew. Loud, thin, cold. EXPED mats make no sound and you are 3 inches up. I have tried both others. Sea to Summit is loud, miserable to sleep on. Its a pool toy.
Ya the Sea to Summit is now reserved for the cot. But the Thermarest is awesome.
Bonjour so which one is the best ?
Nonsense Neoair Ventura has core matrix and R value of 1.8.
Great video thanks. Thermarest it is
Yes, this wasn't so much a comparison video as me saying you should get the Thermarest
Try the exped deepsleep 7.5. Its a good price and has an r value of 8.5.
Come on man that things over 5 lbs!
@@JonConti the 22 inch version is 3 lbs 10 oz. Its winter camping not ultralight. But to each their own. Im a little different than most back packers. I dont mind a slightly heavy pack. I hunt and haul out quarter bucks so im used to a little weight.
@@kh8895 I need a long one since I'm tall and I do long miles in the winter. Plus I like the Therm-a-rest and it weighs less than two pounds! Is there a reason to get the downmat over than the therm-a-rest besides that big r-value?
@@JonConti mainly price and comfort. Its 60 bucks cheaper and 3 inches of open cell.
I try to get the best priced gear, balanced against quality of course. Plus i live in Canada so the extra rvalue is a plus.
If u like lighter pads, exped has a pad, down mat xp9 with a 7.8 r value under 2 pounds. Same price as the deep sleep. I havent tried it tho. So I cant reccomend it. It wasnt available when i bought my deep sleep.
I haven't tried the extherm either so i cant compare it comfort wise. Im sure its a good pad tho. Just thought id mention a diff choice that i have tried and liked thats all.
@@kh8895 hey I appreciate Kevin! I love Justin outdoors videos cuz he tests all his stuff in Canada and I feel like it it works in Canada and Canadians use it, thatâs the best review for a product
I have decided to deviate from the Therm-a-rest Neoair Xtherm for an Exped Dura 8r Long Air Pad with an R rating of 7.8. Going to try it out on hills in Summer and then if I'm happy with it, will try it out on Scottish mountains in Winter. I could not see properly in the video, but sleeping air pads to function correctly should be inside the sleeping bag, not underneath them.
Iâve never seen a sleeping pad in a sleeping bag before đ§ mine definitely wouldnât fit in my bag
What pyramid tent do you use?
The Luxe Hexpeak. Not gonna lie I don't use it anymore, wasn't a fan of pyramid tents. Got myself an MSR Access 3 instead
Definitely wouldnât go with either personallyâŠâŠexped all the way. I put mine through all sorts of abuse and cold weatherâŠâŠnegative temps and I was just chilly because my 0 degree bag wasnât quite cutting it, but my arse was fine.
How much does that pad weigh?
@@JonConti, definitely not light for ultralightersâŠ..I have the older version with integrated hand pump, so it is 30oz, but has a 4.9 R value. I pretty much only use for lower temps. I bought that in 2013 and they now have a winter downmat UL that has a 7.1 R value and comes in around 23oz, which is pretty good as well. I would just prefer the material myselfâŠ.I keep hearing the Therm-a-rest is noisy.
The thermarest is not long enough
You can get it in a 6'6" model that's what I have. How tall are you!?
@@JonConti hello I am 195cm tall. And I want to have a pad that is about 201cm long. 6,6" as you said would be the right length but I really can't find that length. Only 196cm. That is the large size
The Xtherm is far too noisy.
What do you use?
@@JonConti Kampa 10mm Wideboy & Outwell 12mm Dreamcatcher Wide for car camping, and Exped 9mm downmat Long Wide for carrying into the wilds or up mountains.
Hello there Tobey Maguire!
Lol I've never heard that one before
I'd rather go for an exped warmer and a lot more durable.
Exped are heavier no?
You should change the title of your video fromâR-Valueâsâ to âR-Valuesâ to be grammatically correct.
Youâve got me thinking about either an x-therm or x-lite. I tried the latter and it was so warm. Iâd bought the Ether lite Xt but its valve leaked even though it was new so I returned it. Do the x-therm and x-lite get quieter with use?
You cannot use marketing jargon and pretend it's science.
The whole hypothesis about moving and not moving being the deciding factor.... Is completely goofy. đ đ
ÏŃÏĐŒÏŃĐŒ
"In my opinion there are only TWO winter mats worth considering...".
What about Exped???....
"Oh Yeah, and them..."
That's the problem with these YT videos. Opnions are like arseholes, everyone has one, doesn't make you an expert.
Welcome to the internet. Literally it's all opinions.