Hell Hath No (BSA) Fury (Nor Triumph Bandit) - A Mini Documentary
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- čas přidán 12. 07. 2024
- I'm no professional journalist, presenter or content maker, but I thought I'd have a go at putting together this mini documentary to piece together the story of the still born BSA Fury and Triumph Bandit and how three examples came to be in my garage at the same time and become part of this channel.
Thanks all for your interest and hopefully these three will all be present at many future shows, events and rallies.
#bsafury
#triumphbandit
#bsapowerset
00:00 Titles
00:21 Introduction
01:09 A Familiar Designer and Unfamiliar Design
07:51 The Design is Adopted - Sort Of!
10:38 The Models Are Released
33:57 Preparing for Production
51:11 Life After Death - A Contageon Is Born - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Great video! I remember the BSA B50 engines finding their way to CCM after BSA ceased production. Shame the Fury/Bandit engines didn't have a similar "white knight" waiting for them since the tooling and parts nomenclature was already there.
Indeed. One point I forgot to mention is that the rolling chassis was also used at one point for one of the rotary prototypes. Thanks John.
Thank you Angus, I *really* enjoyed that. As I said before, I saw the purple Fury 'in the flesh' at Olympia and am sure I saw it again at a later event at the NEC. I have been wracking my brains trying to remember what event that was. Sadly, the friend who attended with me has passed away. We both arrived on my '69 Lightning, so that would put it at some time in 72, before it put the LH rod through the cases. I had never seen the internals of the 350 engine, so again, thank you. The single row cam chain brought back memories of the 2 Triumph Stags I also owned when young and foolish.
Thanks Steve. I've had two Triumph Stags in my lifetime as well, and although I've got a BSA twin that threw its LH rod, it was before I purchased it.
i think that motorcycles got faster and faster in the sixties a learner could buy a ton up 250 which was a ridiculous idea on crowded roads which were in themselves a less motorcycle friendly environment . Transport which is led by racing is not sensible .😅😊
Hi Angus as i have said before i am a proud Brummie and alot of my family worked in the British bike industry scattered around Birmingham and all of them would have enjoyed your research and documentary on the bikes history ...thanks m8 😜👍
Cheers Mick that's very kind.
Thank you for the great video. I have a copy of that same Motorcycle Sports Quarterly that I bought it at a newsstand 50 years ago. I bought it for the BSA 350 article & have kept for the same reason. It's like me now: old & tattered on the edges!
Many thanks Ray for the interest and comment. I know the feeling!
You have put a lot of work into this production Angus. Very informative!
Thanks Gordon - very kind - appreciate the interest and comment.
Hello Angus, Very interesting documentary. All BSA and Triumph 350 DOHC Twins were ordered scrapped on the 14th October 1971. The Power and the glory 1971 Brochures, i must have 50 of them plus other BSA Sales literature. I did know of a new crated 350 DOHC Engine that was in Detroit Michigan that had been sent to the USA to be evaluated to be put into a snow mobile. The guy that had it, did some work on the project and never got paid by BSA for his work, so he kept the engine. My friend bought the engine off him and i believe the National Motorcycle Museum bought the engine off him to repair a burnt one they had. I heard the story that a full 40 foot container full of Fury/Bandit's plus spares was stuck on a dock in the USA and when BSA didn't pay the import duties, the container was sailed about a mile off shore and the content's were dumped at sea. Have you heard about that. A friend of mine has a BSA version in Birmingham and he rides it. I think i have a kickstart for one somewhere. I thought all the Triumph Bandit ss and Fury ss were for the USA market. I note that you have fitted a U.K. Front Mudguard, were you struggling to find a U.S. one ? Speedwell Mudguards would be able to supply you one. Does the Triumph Bandit SS high pipe bike with Gene Romero sat on it in the Desert still exist and does any other Triumph Bandit high pipe ss exist besides yours ? David Myers who worked at Umberslade for three years as a draughtsman lives locally to me and he has a lot of drawings put away but not sure if he has any on the DOHC 350's. He can tell you alot of what went on there and really he should write a book. Cheers. Billy. P.S. my friend in Detroit has a new crated 1973 Triumph Hurricane and a new crated 1963 BSA DBD34 Goldstar Allsport. Cheers.
Hi Billy. Thanks for the interest, comment, compliment, and lastly, the fascinating information. You’ve actually plugged a few gaps in our collective knowledge (“our” being me, associates, friends and collaborators that own or are interested in Fury/Bandits), especially with respect to the source of parts allowing NMM to rebuild their collection after the fire destroyed their Fury. I don’t have any evidence of the Romero Bandit SS surviving, nor the example featured in the umberslade publicity pics with Tony Lomas and Carol Cleveland. That may have been the same bike before it was shipped to the US for the La Quinta launch but I have no evidence to support that. I think I’ve a pic somewhere in my literature of Romero with a girl on a Bandit roadster so will look to dig that out. I have heard previously of the container being dumped at sea. Would be good at some point to touch base with you and David - did you work for the factory/umberslade before the demise? Thanks again for the interest and comment - fascinating.
Hi Angus I remember in the early seventies reading about the new bike in production at BSA, I could only afford to run an Bantam in those days, your documentary on the Fury / Bandit has been very interesting and informative, I can only marvel at your persistence in chasing down the parts , bikes and information required to get a running example. well done.
Thanks John for the kind comment and the interest.
Excellent work Angus, your efforts are appreciated as its not going to be too long before no one will be left from that era and we need a methodical composed documentry on this time
Many thanks - appreciated.
Great information ! I saw a green high pipe model at a dealer in Inglewood California at that time there may have been a low pipe model as well i was just a young man, I knew then who ever bought it was going to have an instant collector's item but after your very informative video I don't think it was sold at all it just went back to the factory after several months passed
Cheers Lee thanks for kind comment and anecdote. It’s only a collectors item if there’s a market - as time moves on people don’t actually know what these models are. At shows I’ve had several comments about it being a personal one off special.
Thank you very much for this great history lesson. As a kid, I wanted one of these but alas, it never happened. Later in life, I was able to get a 69 Lightning, 70 Rocket 3, 70 Bonneville and even a 68 Trident, all of which I still own. Unfortunately, my son has little interest in them so I guess I will end up parting with them. Even have a 70 Trackmaster Triumph for dirt track racing. Never even saw a Bandit or Fury.
Thanks for the interest and anecdote Jet. My kids do take some interest and have ridden so that's nice but it's definitely a trend in general that we might be a contracting breed. Nice collection. Thanks again.
I will be your son. Dad, can I have your bikes?
Only if you cost nothing Davey. Made me genuinely laugh - so much better than a casual lol. Thanks for interest and humour.
What a thorough job documneting this interesting part of British motorcycle history. I sure miss those old British brands that were once here in the U.S. For me, the motorcycle industry was never quite as interesting after their demise.
Many thanks for the interest and most kind comment. Triumph has fared well since it rose from the ashes in the 90’s - let’s see how Norton and BSA fare now they are back.
Fantastic job! Thanks for taking the time to make this (and all the other videos you do)!
Many thanks Matus for the interest, comment and compliment - appreciated.
A really good load of info about the models,well done..
Many thanks Matt - appreciated. Now I can focus on the welder perhaps.
A beautiful design that didn’t come soon enough. If only the triple came a little earlier. I love British bikes but am between models at the moment my 79 guzzi is leaking all on its own while I look for another bsa. Planning a bantam with Ariel arrow power (something they should have done back in the day !)
Thanks for the interest and comment. There was a bantam featured recently in Real Classic mag that had a Suzy RG500 bottom end with four Ariel two stroke top ends. Also an associate in a long gone local classic MC club made a four cylinder Arrow from two motors side by side. So definitely plenty of scope for the Bantam special!
I wonder if you could get the original ladies back to do another photo with the 350?
Or on second thoughts their granddaughters
Yes it's something on the agenda in the future if we can pull it off. We know we can probably get in contact with Caron Gardner and Carol Cleveland, but don't currently know the whereabouts of Karen Young.
For what it's worth, in 1984 Charles Godden writing in The Classic Motor Cycle magazine identified the gent in the white crash helmet and quilted "rally" jacket (14' 25" in your video) as "BSA publicity officer David Lloyd" rather than Tony Lomas, not Steve Mettam, and that it was taken in the grounds of Umberslade.
Thanks for clarifying that. I knew it wasn’t Mettam - doesn’t look like him in other pics - even though many articles describe it as him and I hadn’t seen any article advising of any other names so useful info - thanks again.
@@BSAPowerSet Godden borrowed Triumph Bandit number 00101 from someone called Christopher Williams, rode it round for a week (not exceeding 6,000 rpm) and rather liked it. Looking forward to your own road test report (!?), hope all is going well.
Yes all well thanks just prepping for Stafford so first start on Fury will be after that. Incidentally Bandit 00101 is the one now owned by TMS Nottingham.
@@BSAPowerSet I'm still hoping to get to Stafford but family considerations might have to take priority which would be disappointing, I suppose there's potentially still the one in October. One other thing I note from the Godden article, although the points backplate was very hard to source, they were able to replace the contact breakers themselves with a set from "an early Mini"!
Again thanks for further insight from Godden. Hope you get to Stafford at some point - the Oct event is still on the cards apparently. I think the event shortly is sold out on Sat due to restricted numbers.
Great video very informative you obviously very knowledgeable about BSA just wondering what your thoughts are on the bike that had been under development prior to Edward Turner's version of this bike the 250 triple?
Hi Jason and thanks for the kind comment and interest. I don't know much at all about Hele's 250 triple I'm afraid other than at the time, management decided that the market didn't need it. Usual short-sightedness that blighted the industry during mid to late sixties. Thanks again for interest.
I have always been a Triumph fan later allowing BSA some favour, I recall my, late brother, at the time while in hospital reckoned there were 2 potential flaws with the design 1. The crank being a 180 deg not having a centre supporting bearing and 2. The came chain guide from the exhaust camshaft being 90 deg.
Myself being about 12 at the time I listened but it didn't mean much to me then, My thinking was they got the names the wrong way around i.e. it should have been BSA Bandit and Triumph Fury, the styling was right and they should've been a success.
This is a great overview of these bikes and their history, I guess the value f these bikes isn't what someone will pay for them but what the owners want.
Your dedication to this bike and you and your son did a great job putting this together.
Many thanks for the kind comments and interesting anecdotes - appreciated.
Yes, those engine flaws from the git-go plus the B-25 primary drive. Thinking was muddled some to finalize those features. I worked for a BSA/Suzuki/Kawasaki dealer in Westchester Co., N.Y. when these models were announced and we were excited a bit to see them but it didn't happen. A couple years later we got the Kawasaki KZ 400 and the Suzuki GS-400 to open up our four stroke machine sales lines.
@@whalesong999 Thanks for the interest, comment and anecdote.
Seems like at least two of those superb frames found themselves a T100 motor at the factory? one is parked behind E Turners Bandit prototype in the National bike museum (blue tank), is there a story on those? also was there a model designation for these? ie B25 T90 type model codes? don't worry if you're busy.
I don’t know of any official factory project to marry a T100 engine with a Bandit rolling chassis; however, a significant number of frames did come on to the market via dealers that bought up factory stock during liquidation, e.g. Chell’s, Clews and MCE. As such there are a few examples of owners building these up with the T100 engine as there is plenty of room for this compact motor. The factory were putting this in the B25/B50 chassis to create the ‘73/‘73 Adventurer/Trophy Trail. NVT did experiment with the isolastic B50 motor in a Fury rolling chassis (the P92) but that again never entered production.
@@BSAPowerSet - yes there is a few on youtube, a yellow bitsa with a T100 in (said to be factory) and an A65 crammed into one of the new frames but it's the NMM one that made me think it was a factory bike, there's only a few half pics behind the Turner bandit but it's not important.
Were the Bandit and Fury designs influenced, ironically, by Honda ( for the Bandit ) and Suzuki ( for the Fury ) ?
Hi Neil thanks for interest and comment. I think the likes of Honda catalysed minds on the 350 market in America due to it being entry level by way of insurance classes I believe at the time. I don't think they influenced either Turner's prototype design or the Hopwood/Hele redesign of the bike itself - the engine and rolling chassis are very different to Honda's SOHC CB350 and Suzukis two strokes at the time. Perhaps the 180 crank was a nod to the Japanese. The only different between the Bandit and Fury themselves is the petrol tank and colours and the seat cover - everything else is exactly the same. Thanks again for interest.
@@BSAPowerSet And the Fury reminds me of the 1972 Yamaha YR-5. This was a two stroke but the tank, seat and side panels have all very similar proportions. Coincidence ? Just my impression.
Ahh Neil I see what you mean - yes I can see those similarities. I suppose we’ll never know if it was an influence - the double downtube Fury frame was designed later as the first revision was single downtube but the Yamaha model release from 1970 might have been slightly later.
@@BSAPowerSet The Bandit, in particular, would have benefited from twin upswept exhausts to give it a street scrambler look and as such might have done well in the American market. Incidentally, didn't BSA have copyright on the name Bandit ? Which Suzuki later used so successfully.
I've become interested in what seems like two directions merging to create these NA market 350cc bikes, if anything what do you make of the original E. Turner Bandit engine / frame being _almost_ completely unrelated to what Doug Heal and Bert Hopwood produced? given that the two then current engineers were said to have been working on UK & US 250cc and 350cc triples would it not be too hard to say the Bandit and Fury engine and frame were in fact two thirds of those triples?
I don't wish to diminish E Turners part in the original prototype but there is an obvious void between point A and point B that only one answer fills, an answer to my knowledge no information exists for except the 4 '71 bikes from D. Heal and B. Hopwood and one sentence relating to the (obviously Daytona inspired) small capacity triples they were planning, the only difference is the UK 250cc and one cylinder were dropped and E Turners design added.
There might be some signs of this with the Crankcases and Crankshafts, the central half sections for the middle pot simply being cast out of the triple design along with the central crank, I accept this may be down a Rabbit hole but to be honest it keeps making more sense, not less, everything fits into this theory and both machines suddenly take on a whole new meaning as triples.
Thanks for your thoughts on this. In my opinion, the Hele 250 triple was conceived and scrapped in '64/65 before Turner was commissioned to design the 350 from scratch. However, Hele's small triple was the inspiration for the Trident/R3. Turner's 350 began to be drawn up in '66. It bears a lot of resemblances to his Tiger Cub - especially the frame - and this, on being tested by the factory once Turner had handed the prototype over, was found to be too weak and flimsy and could not handle the power. This aside from all the weaknesses of the original engine. So to take forward, a whole redesign was necessary but using some of the Turner principles. That redesign by Hele and Hopwood included the frame which allegedly Hopwood drew up in the final twin cradle form. So I think Turner's prototype was more of a Tiger Cub twin than a cut down triple.
@@BSAPowerSet- It was more a thought of the developed near production 350 engines maybe having some influence from the 250 / 350 triples, kind of the other end of the stick than Turners engine which was clearly a twin from conception although I do now see the 'double cub' point you make.
It's more than likely just a Rabbit hole I'm down but at the bore and stroke of the developed 350 twin engine there's potential for a 250 twin (& therefore 125 single), a 500 triple and maybe even a 750 four if Hele and Hopwood were thinking along modular lines that early, these thoughts are based on the slight over engineering of the 350 twin and frame for the capacity but maybe the two engineers weren't looking beyond and were just focused on the DOHC 350 twin itself.
@@mc2594 I take your point; however, bear in mind that Turner’s 350 was commissioned from the very top, developed in isolation in a corner in the Redditch factory, and was ultimately foisted upon Hopwood and Hele who were reluctant to take it on. All grist to the mill regarding lack of strategic product planning in the 60’s.
@@BSAPowerSet - All very hard to understand 50 years later, I guess trying to add pages in to broaden the story is as pointless as adding another 4 valves, water cooling and doubling or more the capacity was 10 years after the last one didn't make it out of a closed factory.
Just wondering how many of the bikes are likely to end up on the road? I know you and other people are building bikes and getting parts made, do you think there will come a time when a complete bike will be built from scratch
Good question as there are quite a few running now, but not many road legal and registered. Doug Fraser's Bandit in Oz is probably the best example of an on the road high mileage machine. My Fury SS is entirely built from scratch/separate parts.
Just to say about Bert Hopwoods book is worth a look in it is the 74/75 line up of new bikes based on the modular design with pictures and information that BSA had developed the problem they had was lack of money for the new tooling to build them that is how they ended up approaching the government for state aid. Hopwood has a few things to say about that and Dennis Poore
Thanks Jason
so close but so far they were doomed to failure by who knows shared gearboxes shared primary shared clutches and a cam driven from a torture chain would i have bought one ? yes you can bet your bottom dollar i would but i think it would have had a honda engine in sooner than later
Thanks for the comment and interest Fred. Yea by the time it would have eventually made the market, the CB350 had already run away with it. My brother had the CB250K4 in mid 70's - mercifully used it all the time and rarely serviced it and it just kept going.
@@BSAPowerSet i had the tattiest cb 360 in the world just ran and ran
Really interesting but sad about a lost opportunity by BSA but the company was badly run Turner was not up to the job of being chairman and Lionel Jofeh completely out of his depth. Just wondering what your opinions on the 250 triple that was close to completion before all work was stopped in favour of Edward Turners version of this bike?
Yes ultimately management have to take the can for incorrect expectation setting, increase investment/debt and then not cashing in by missing the critical selling season in the US in '71. Doug Hele's 250 triple I think was designed and initially developed as early as 1964/65 and therefore was cancelled for other reasons rather than having to give way to the 350. It's another "what might have been" and potentially was well ahead of its time.
It was impression I got after reading Bert Hopwoods book that the 250 was stopped for Turners bike but I might have picked it up wrong