Pantheon is Feeling like an MMO - Seasons First Look
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- čas přidán 16. 03. 2024
- Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen has 4 weeks into their first season, a new testing format that will bring in all testers across 6 week periods while adding in new areas and new zones every 6 weeks.
The first season took us to a new zone in the indie MMO called Avendyr's Pass and despite some trouble early on, the game has been making some awesome progress that has me excited for the future.
Without @DesrynDoes this video would have looked a lot worse. Check out his channel for some awesome B-Roll and ambient footage as well as patch notes for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen.
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Hey friend, TY so mush . I promise the Wilhelm scream will be in for you! The next patch of the game will be awesome for audio, and I guarantee it'll be rockin'! To all of you, I, along with the entire PVL Audio team, pledge our dedication to this game, pouring our hearts and souls into it. Rock on!
Hell yes, that's what I like to hear. Now if y'all could also get a contract to go work on a dlc for bg3 as well that'd be even better...
Great job all around. Your team has massively improved pantheon and I know pvl will be a signal of quality on any game I see in the future
Rock ON Its time for BG3 Larian is in my town i will go say hello to them for sure :)
The sound design has been extremely well done. Id say better than most games. Its very immersive how you guys did it. Its kind of the standout in the game atm.
@@TheWhisperingPenis THANKS A lot friend we put our hart in to this!! we want this thing to Deliver Rock On !!!!
The sound already in the game is really good. Great work on this! I play with my volume cranked up!
This game has been in production hell for over 10 years, had siphoned hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions in investments. And it looks like it was made in 2003. The plug pulling should have commenced 8 years ago. But if they want to keep it alive, it needs another 10 years of work.
Pantheon really interested me with the lore, the character classes, and the races but the game looks so bad. Animations, UI, and Lighting just look amateurish.
Seen android and apple mmorpg , that are atleast 7 years old , that are 100 times better looking graphically and animation wise then this game. I'm curious too why it even looks like this . The shadow effects look great.. besides that yikes ..
Who cares what it looks like, gameplay is what matters. I'll take a goofy looking game that actually works over some other good looking trash.
I love how he plays that dramatic music as those terrible animations play. It looks like they just started making the game.. in 2010
What lore? the old lore is not the current game it was all redone.
I haven't had time to play recently. Thank you for your update/recap videos to keep us in the loop! ❤
Mate, you are making PVL Blush!
Thanks for the input, awesome and clear-arse content, Flynn!
*very loud music emoji*
I've only recently started following Pantheon and am quite excited about what I'm seeing in terms of delivering a roll-based grouping experience similar to what I enjoyed in my heydays of MMOs. The classes look interesting and different too. I appreciate some people have been following this for almost a decade and are a bit jaded. I know how they feel, I used to play 7Days2Die :)
Cheers, Flynn. It's really starting to shape up for sure 😊
Terrific video, and I love your T shirt :)
Thank you Nagasakee! And glad you like the shirt!
Your edits have gotten so good over time. Too bad Pantheon can't say the same.
Haha well thank you.
For real , what am I looking at ? Is this game made by fans of old MMORPG ? it's beyond basic looking the graphics and animations. . Look str8 outta the early 2000s Era , don't know if that what the dev of this game is trying too do ?
@@joezar33 I'm trying to figure out the same thing with your punctuation.
Another great video. I'm having so much fun. It's a shame we are in different time zones. I'm in the UK. Love your videos always fun and helpful.
If I can play Monsters and Memories with Mitchmanix and WoW geoguesser with Mrguybrush (UK and Spain respectively) I can manage! Look forward to seeing you in game some time, feel free to reach out and say hi!
@Redbeardflynn thank you. Yes I definitely will. :)
So.... $50 gets you the game and you can play 1 week of the 6 week open season.... The minimum to be able to play whenever (or a "VIP PACKAGE") is $750? hahahahaha yeah right!
It's backing development not access. And they don't lapse. It's not like you pay each 6 weeks. That said, if people aren't interested in backing an indie game they shouldn't pay to pledge or assume they're paying specifically only for access to an in dev game
@@Redbeardflynn Just LOL. How many cycles of "packages" have they promoted. How many times have they said "We have enough to finish the game", only to then turn around and ask for "pledges".
@@georgeblair3894 far as I know...one? Same pledge packages they've always had. Difference now is they now have testing available to all packages.
Another great video! And I’m happy that you commented on the combat, it seems promising. Very excited to see all the class abilities. Hopefully they’ll update the spell effects though, at the moment they look almost non-existent.
I honestly have not been able log out. So much to do every day whether it's working on crafting or catching up with some much needed harvesting, grinding levels with friends or camping named spawns for that rare unique item ive been really wanting to complete my set with. It most definitely feels like an MMO.
Fall Damage: confirmed. 👍
Mob Over-slaughter: yep. 👍
Bugs: present. 👍
Death Penalty: pretty sure. 👍
Ok. Sounds good! 😀
I'm doing my part to test all the ways I can find to get owned in the game.
Glad it’s still being worked on. Will check it out if it releases!
Good plan! I'll be sure to keep the updates coming as stuff advances
any estimation , on when, us the general public , will be able to play the game ?
!!!!
@@bluequantummusic5544 not really. The change to the new testing phases was made to start the year. I know they've stayed in interviews and qas they want to speed up as much as they can but I think that'd require more artists. So at the moment the minimum to play would he $50 and you'd only have access 1 week every season though that does include a copy of the game at launch I believe. No reports on the box price the game when it does launch but I think it's safe to say it'd probably be similar.
Tysm for the swift reply.
One last question, Is the pledge system giving me access to the seasons and/or the launch ?@@Redbeardflynn
@@bluequantummusic5544 of course! And the best way to think of it is pledging backs the game and part of thst includes access to seasons and the game on release. Each season is 6 weeks with the promise being that the next 6 weeks will add more to zone content to the game. We'll see on March 30th how they're keeping to that promise when season 2 starts.
Behold…. 10 years in development.
And more enjoyment than I've had in a new mmo in years 😁
@@Redbeardflynn gotta justify that investment I get it. The game isn’t even close to being released. At this rate eq3 will be released before pantheon is.
Ill never get over the art style. I just cant
I have been having a ton of fun in game. Great video!
I'm glad to hear you've been having so much fun! And thank you for the kind words.
graphics engine has something to be desired.
Yeah, I mean honestly looking at the terrain and some of the creatures its okay to me, its just the faces on the humans. Its uh....yeah idk it looks really weird, and lame, and poop.
For many reasons I find myself drawn to 'old-school' mmos; wow classic, aion classic, lineage 2, silkroad online, osrs etc - and entirely unenthused by any modern day mmo that comes out. I really hope games like Pantheon find a player base and can thrive in their own right.
I've been trying to track down exactly what that pull is for years. I've got some theories but everytime I think of something there's more to it. My current theory revolves around how everything is fast-tracked and boring until endgame....coupled with aggressive monetization, lack of group roles, lack of reason to do anything but solo (until end game), and just copying of a formula that hasn't seen many successful copycats yet.
@@Redbeardflynn Solo until level 5 is okay. But after that you will feel that you exp bar is stuck. That being said. There is tons of things to do like harvesting, exploring, kill low level things just to get money or just hang out at the Well :)
@@Redbeardflynn Yeah i definitely think placing levelling and pre-endgame before endgame itself is great for building that connection to your character and the world you're in. the world itself i find, at least in my own opinion - is more immersive when the graphics aren't on par with BDO. now this i can't really explain, i just don't get immersed/enriched in a world when the graphics are photorealistic/going for a more life-like look (strange huh? haha) maybe it's because the something for lack of a better term, 'cozy' about graphics that aren't top-notch, and your mind is left to race off and fill in some of the blanks. i won't disagree that i think nostalgia plays a role, perhaps more strongly than i realise, and the sub-par graphics is my minds way of connecting back to an earlier time, but that still doesn't necessarily answer the question of, why do i have MORE FUN on games that hit that legacy category of mmo, despite combat being slow, graphics being sub-par etc etc
Give Asherons Call a try - You can play on Emulator servers. It was old school cool and revolutionary for its time.
Enjoying it thus far. I wish the engine was smoother though. The audio is amazing.
Was fun to group with ya (aka raidil)
The classes are what interest me most.
Class Roles: MMOs need them!
Played it this weekend... had a really good time. Was able to level to 8 and craft bags and some armor... I love camping mobs
You already got higher level than me!
Two handed battle-axe is swung like a fencing sabre...10/10. perfect game. Keep dumping money into this. The new art style is definitely encouraging. I would suggest people start selling their homes to pledge more money into pantheon. This will definitely pan out and have a long healthy mmo life.
6 months later, Cohh and others seem to be having a good time with the game. Yall having fun playing Ashes?
Did they put back the old graphics?
Honest question: How long should an MMO of this size and scope to be made with a modest team and resources.
I don't think there's an easy answer because I can't come up with any good comparables. Throne and liberty took 12 years as a triple a dev. Star citizen which has a budget that far exceeds pantheon is still in dev. Most of the triple a games out now though we're made on 6-7 years bad had hundreds on their teams and millions or hundreds of millions more in funding.
@@Redbeardflynn interesting to think about and compare. both those games have large teams and alot of funding, and are plagued with issues. I dont expect Liberty would be worth my time or Hard Drive space, and SC, well SC may never experience a full retail release.
@@StageCoachMedia3656 I'll be trying throne and liberty mostly because it's kind of my job here 😅 I'll report back. SC has recently said they believe 1.0 is on the horizon, well see. But I find myself more interested in their single player game than their mmo
@@Redbeardflynn I hear ya...who knows maybe your coverage of Throne and Liberty will sway some opinions. guess we will see.
All the maps being made of the same 8-9 free store assets is kind of a red flag, especially after they decided to redo the entire art style to match said free assets but oh well. I'll give this game credits for existing at all, we'll see if it ever releases.
Looks WAY better than I expected. Thanks for the video!
Glad you enjoyed the video! It's coming along but definitely still a long way to go.
If settings are stable and game is polished in functions. its all we really ask for. The creative stuff can pile up fast after launch imo. But if they burn out on creative and switch to bug fixing only... its a bad order of things
Good God the graphics. Hopefully, they improve, well…everything to do with visuals before an actual release.
Good god, minecraft was so unsuccessful...
Game feels great, I play it everyday. Unfortunately you don't get a real feel for the classes until level 10.
I think Direlord might be the one exception but perhaps thats largely due to how fleshed out masteries are. I'm getting there slowly with the wiz, tho!
Unless you play the Warrior. Then everything stops at level 10 :)
I know they are still working on it so I don’t care too much about graphics. I like a challenging game… glad they made the world feel dangerous. I’m not into easy mode mmos and this looks like they at least stayed true to making it challenging. Reminds me of Eqoa which was my first mmo love.
Is the game even close to coming out? its been so long
Did they do an art style change or something? I really feel like it didn't always look like this but maybe I'm imagining things.
Art style changed to the hand painted style a few months back. Still a work in progress in some ways, new lighting comes in on Saturday for example.
I played it... I owned champion tier for years and went in feeling jaded tbh... After playing for my 4 days off it's very solid and id dear say great... It's EverQuest with a coat of paint and slightly modernized.... One tip for new players there are bind stones... If u use one you can't /stuck back to your newbie town... Do so only when your ready and know your way around
I like the art style staying true to the everquest look
I'd be embarrassed if this was a game I had spent 9 years working on.
What would you have done differently in the 9 years?
@@Redbeardflynn
Hey friend, given the team's size and resources, a 9-year development cycle for such a large-scale MMO isn't surprising. When you think about it, games like The Witcher 4 might take a similar amount of time, potentially even longer, given their ambitious scope and scale, with budgets exceeding 100 million dollars.
@@Redbeardflynn 1) Not spent the money "foolishly". 2) Set timelines and stuck to them. 3) SHOWN videos of progression. NOT "roundtables", not "art", not "Dev discussions". 4) Stopped raising money AFTER they have said MULTIPLE times that they had enough to "finish" the game.
Other studies and indie devs have done far more with less resources.
@@georgeblair3894 I'm a huge fan of Pantheon but agree with you on point 1-3. From the outside it looks like lack of experienced management. They have always stated that they had money to finish the game, but more money would speed up that process. I know they have been working on it for 9 years. But those 9 year cover 2 startovers for one reason or another. Luckily for them they didn't have to throw everything out or it would have been really dead in the water.
@@Ulthrinifyed Well put :)
It looks stiff as far as character movement. It looks like DAOC, honestly it looks very dated graphicly. The water reflection looked nice, the environment looks good, but I will have a hard time with the stiff character movements.
Been in development for over 10 years
I want to be as excited about this game as i was a few years ago, but i just dont know. They are so quick to change directions that it worrys me to try these games.
I feel that it will start out with the old eq thought in mind but as soon as the forums are flooded by new players saying its hard or i cant solo they will move the direction that most do. Dropping penalties or difficulty in favor of gaining more players, whereas older mmos already have that core playerbase there that have been abused for well 25 years now and they know they wont jump ship since the new mmos are just not even close.
I dont know. I will play it, but i am just being cynical, probably. My hopes are really with monsters and memories but i have some doubts there too.
I like the art style but the animations on the mobs seem to repeat alot.
yeah it needs a lot of fine-tuning, especially some of the animations for different weapons and I can't *wait* for the new wizard fx they've been showing on twitter to come in. I want to see how they look in game.
How can anyone be happy with this, in its current state, after 10 YEARS of development?
I mean I've been having fun. If it's not for you it's not for you though 🙂
Didn’t realize they switched to WoW graphics
This game has been in development for WAAAAAAAYYYY too long to still look this rough and i don't mean the art and models i mean the gameplay
It sucks. I think they should rename it. It definitely does not present as the original Terminus. Hello Kitty Island 2 sounds good
Man this game is really coming along, finally! getting excited again!
This game has not been launched and it looks 20 years old. Why?
*does a 'courtsey'*
Haha, great video Red. Season 1 has been fun and surprisingly refreshing. Looking forward to some consistency!
Consistency is key, or should I say consistincy? 😶
I feel like someone with even limited experience in vitrually any game building engine could build the shown environments not only in a few hours, but 10x better. Im just saying considering the time invested in this games development already, it is definitely lackluster and basically, to me...looks like 3D Runescape.
Such a profoundly disingenuous and ignorant comment.
Crazy, I pledged $200 like 7.5yrs ago & unsubscribed to everything related to this development when they changed the look to resemble EverQuest Next
good lord, that shit have zero charm and looks so bad. Good to know it won't steal any EQ players, there is just no way haha.
Good to know how clueless you are about the appeal of Pantheon. Hundreds(at least) of EQ players are playing Pantheon right now. You folks just love to sound ignorant on the internet.
@@broquietstorm1266 you sound like a Chronicles of Elyria backer
@@itsvoices1 And you sound like a person crying and whining about a game you don't believe in instead of enjoying a game you actually like.
Wish there wasn't a map, I may just unbind it. Hope the quests aren't WoW quests. One of the few games left that may be a home for some of us.
Edit: My mistake, there is no in-game map.
My brother and I are loving Embers Adrift. Very old school. A very stylized map that isn't a 1:1 representation of the zone. No hand holding. Good combat. Good world.
It is definitely a bit janky and I don't imagine it is great solo so bring or make a friend. There is a definite old school jank to it, of course. Most fun we have had in an MMO in a decade.
Edit: oh yes, no experience from quests, just gear. No quest markers either.
There isn’t a map
@@motive7475 My mistake, I could have swore I remembered a map when I played. However, I think they still plan on having a map, so..
@@Mhantrax Embers Adrift's map is a step in the right direction, but it still hurts macro-exploration. And you're right, its janky lol. I wasnt super impressed at first, only got to lv2. Maybe I'll log back in and give it another go.
Still don't understand why they decided to use Unity or go with this graphical style. Seems like they keep intentionally shooting themselves in the foot.
I dont like the red circles in the ground of the mobs it looks mechanical
graphically it looks like 30% better than Vanguard did...smh. 10 years of work....
WoW! This game is almost as good as Star Citizen except without the pay-to-win digital space ships.
the devs need to grind out content and zones and there's a chance they could save this
I'm hoping they will keep with the Seasons schedule to do just that and maybe, maybe get in some more artists to speed up work on assets. I'm already looking toward Chapter 2, not just the next 2 seasons largely because we know which parts of the zone are coming in those seasons but not sure on chapter 2.
Interesting people are still releasing content for this game.
Was so psyched about it.... in 2015. I thought for sure they would have changed engines and updated the overall look of this game..
10 years later, it plays and looks like EQ1, not WoW. I guess at this point, they're just wanting to bring something to market so they don't get sued or something.
If it ever releases I might try it, but its never going to reach the critical mass to be a successful MMO with combat and graphics like this.
I'd honestly be embarrassed if I had put a decade into a game and only produced this. But like I said, they have to bring something to market to keep from getting sued.
Just sad its been 20+ years and we still have no EQ successor on a modern engine..
This game looks like Cuba
It's stuck in the past
A decade in and this game looks worse than it did 5 years ago.
Graphically it looks like dog 💩
I was really looking forward to this game years ago. Sad to see it go the way that t did.
Brad is rolling in his grave
In the end. Thank you for taking the time to make a good video.
Unfortunately my interest in this game has dwindled to an all time low. Once I looked upon it as great future.
I get that bud and I'm sorry it's gone in a direction that wasn't what you hoped for. I've been there myself with some other games like crowfall and legends of aria, even new world.
I do hope you'll be able to find an mmo you'll be able to enjoy now or in the future. Outside of pantheon I've got a pinky of hope on an eq3 because eg7 sees the benefit. We'll see
You don't have to like to the game, but you have no right to speak for Brad.
@@broquietstorm1266 .........bruh
Im so confused. Theres way too many people excited for this to be an April's fools joke. Wondering if i got smacked in the head and my brain isnt working anymore bc all of this isn't computing.
What's a game you're currently excited about?
Scamtheon
You obviously have no clue what a scam is.
Do better.
@@broquietstorm1266 Don’t tell me you got scammed into the alpha tester thing 💀 we all take L’s bro it’s ok, you don’t have to defend this game.
@@cmoney163 You sound more ridiculous and ignorant everytime you post. You have no clue what the word scam means and you have absolutely nothing to back up or substantiate your lie.
Stop embarrassing yourself on the internet.
Do better.
Honestly the more I see of the game the less fun it seems.
On the fence, hope for the best, expect another mmorpg flop, and aim for overall fun journey.
Pantheon is basically the fantasy version of EVE online at this point... I've lost all my fucks given for that game lol
A lot to like here, but why does it look like it was developed 10+ years ago. Also peoples comments on how it looks like EQ and not WOW..... WoW was a direct rip of of EQOA's art and graphics....Which was based in EQ.
I hate games that use that target ring on mobs looks so corny
Breaks immersion
hopefully they dont turn into greedy push overs and start tryin too appease to the haters you know are surge the game cause its too hard for them
can we please let VR know that just dying to everything isn't good? I can't kill a mob solo as a cleric at lev 1...... I get hit once I am half life or less. 2nd hit is dead. There is no need for a game to be like that. Even EQ had a good balance of being able to solo for the first 4 levels while you get to know your character. VR doesn't get it. they think dying a lot = hard or good. really stupid.
When I am fighting a skelly in EQ, I can judge whether things are going to end badly and I have an opportunity to run to a guard or zone. I don't have Either of those options and I die nearly instantly. No chance to run.
The game sucks right now. Fix it where I can solo for at least 3 levels. .... VR has no idea what they are doing.
Comparing a game still in progress where the difficulty has changed even from a month ago and the Developers have stated that tweaks are being made and difficulty adjusted to a FINISHED game really shows how ignorant you are to game development.
Still vaporware
what's with all the dumb rock walls ALL OVER THE PLACE!
it's so immersion breaking. rock walls are rare.
can't believe how bad it is, it seriously makes me not want to play the game for that reason alone.
i can't get immersed in a maze of rock walls.
That's an interesting and very specific criticism. I believe other zones will look different. But those are all climbable
Gonna be honest, this game looks worse every time I see it...
Man I remember being hyped about this game like 8 years ago. Haha
I agree
That's fair! I think I felt the same way from about 2019 until about 5 months ago, since then I've been seeing steady improvement and I hope the lighting pass and more zones with different biomes really show something, though I'd love if they could just get a few more artists hired on to speed up art.
I agree, this game looks worse than EQ1 graphically lol. Thats how bad it looks. They need to pull the. Plug on it
@@truckstation527 who cares about graphics?
It is not fun and i love grind. there is not enough players on the server because they have not wiped the server for the new seasons so your left solo. the graphics look horrible and run poorly . VR is supposed to be collecting data but how are they collecting data if your game is dead because 5 people who paid the most dont want a reset? So no data to be had thats impossible with 50 or less players online during peak hours, and them being close knit groups or friends = there is no data i think its just a way to keep you entertained or something till they redo the entire game, but not the entire team is working . just jappa , savanja... the rest of the team has not been seen or heard from.
paid youtube review?
I mean...the ad revenue from you watching it? Does that count? 😅
Is it that hard to imagine someone genuinely enjoys things?
Def not liking the art style change...
That's fair. It's growing on me but I'm really eager to see the lighting pass on the 30th of this month as well as eventually an ogre - I think the art style will play better with non-humans.
I hate how peoole trash on the graphics. Gameplay over graphic everyday. You should know this if you're a real gamer. Look at minecraft, it's still super popular and continually being developed. Stop complaining.
It looks so bad though. Like really bad.
Is this a joke?
There is nothing more I hate than the wilhelm scream, it takes me out of any video, it totally ruins my immersion.
Wow this game looks a lot worse than it did 3 years ago…what happened? Game looks boring asf already lol
This is not the game I pledged to...
Why's it look so ass? 2024... Are they trying for that World of Warcraft look, that minimalist "artistic style" that has lasted so long? They ain't Blizzard (which is good AND bad days), so don't even try it.
Small indie studio thats still in development. They're going for a painted look mixed with some grit. Major update recently made significant improvements to lighting while also adding in grass changes and more depth on rocks. Human's and armor getting a re-work in the coming months.
@@Redbeardflynn Thanks. I'll keep an eye on it! I just learned it's got a ways to go yet.
Pantheon still robbing people to make them money as they sit at home and play other games while pulling on the heart strings of us EQ players? priceless. You have to give it to them. Its a great way to stay at home and make money. I'm really surprised people haven't caught on yet.
Wow classic was none stop pulling easy mode solo. Every class all the way to 60. Some classes then solo dungeons meant for full lvl 50 groups. I laugh ever time someone brings up wow as being hard. It's a twitch solo game with fast combat to make you feel powerful. Sad how much i want this title and how long I have waited and ur4 looks so much nicer. Maybe as I am a developer I see what you all don't but good video none the less.
Just another MMO that will fail, that already took my money. Also, it's kinda ugly.
This games art style and gui interface is what keeps me away from it…I still play swgemu but that’s because of the progression system and beast gaming…this game just looks cheap and boring. IT looks like a indi mobile game....I dont see how this game will keep an audience. This first look of yours comes across very very bias as you dont talk about any issues within the game, you dont talk about progression, gearing affixes, ...you dont talk about anything really but fluff.
I am biased, naturally, because I enjoy the game. Anyone who tells you they aren't biased (positively or negatively) toward any game isn't being truthful.
This video wasn't a review of gameplay, its a review of the season. I do have a more in-depth review of gameplay on this channel, though, if you're interested.
As for nothing negative, I think talking about the bugs and wipes was exactly that. 😅
the graphics suck. no one will play this inb 2024
Reshading and new lighting coming next season, which is less than 2 weeks
plenty of people still playing OSRS & Minecraft
Ok man play something you like! Lots of high fidelity games out there
Graphics have never made me play a game, gameplay, though? That's the good stuff. I still play EQ over BDO for a reason.
you cant use EQ as an example of graphics because that game was made in 1999. There is a difference releasing a shitty graphics game in 2024@@Redbeardflynn
This looks horrible.
What a boring, empty, uninspired game...
I'm still in camp... crap, they lied but they got my pledge money sooo... cut my losses. This game looks horrible in an endless amount of ways. It reminds me of a never ending development game called DarkFall from years and years ago that took like 10+ years to release, and then we find it was almost nothing like it's claims.
The dark look of Pantheon is now the happy easy to consume products made for 8-12 year old's phones/tablets. This is not a serious game, the devs wasted time and money doing nothing but taking people's "investment" money to pay personal bills. Pantheon was a welfare jobs works program, this is why paying people pre producing something can fall apart so easily, the incentive to deliver fades over time as people are paid to just mouse around while working at home.
There will always be fanbois, they have never helped anything be better... I'm not a fanboi.
You know im not sure if my eyes deceive me, but the animations look quite alright here. The running doesn't look like the knee high march that was happening before. The swinging animations look pretty good. I think, after 10,000 years, this may actually be progressing in a way we can actually see.
Gosh it's ugly