The Wilt Chamberlain vs Bill Russell Debate Explained...
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
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Intro 0:00 - 1:33
Stats 1:34 - 05:28
Awards 05:29 - 7:59
Head-to-Head 8:00 - 12:00
Help 12:01 - 15:12
Bill Russell's Impact 15:13 - 23:52
Conclusion 23:53 - 25:48
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I feel like Bill Russel had to exist because if he didn't. Wilt Chamberlain coulda had the most insane resume of all time
very true
Bill Russell saved us from having an undisputable goat
bro woulda been an 11x champion with all his other stats added on 😭😭😭
All of them are GOATS in their own Eras. Let’s just appreciate Greatness
mate “goats in their own era” makes no sense
@@ard1how does that make no sense
@@the_sports_nerd “greatest of all time.. in their own eras”
@@ard1yeah because they were the best of their era the word goat isn't always taken literally as "greatest of all time" what doesn't make sense to you
They played in the same era.
The most stupidest thing to hear from people is how "unathletic" wilt and bill were.
Its not like there's a video of bill jumping from damn near the ft line over a player and making a layup.
Or wilt being arguably the strongest nba player to ever exist even over shaq.
No one says they are unathletic
No literally anyone in the NBA at THAT moment couldn’t jump from the ft line they are from the early NBA era and even if they are un athletic doesn’t that make jokic trash?
Wilt was the better player individually, no question. But Russell was the FAR smarter player & knew what his team needed.
Also helps that Boston had the superior team more times than not.
But even in 1969 when Wilt, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and the Lakers had the better team, and Bill Russell was a player and head coach, the Celtics won. Ultimately the objective is to win, the better player is the one who is able to win more often in more contexts, and especially win championships.
@@alexanderhenry9133I mean also in 1969 in the pivotal finals wilt literally broke his legs (i think it was the knee) and all of the lakers player were well way past their prime years
and the Celtics were still loaded and did win a ring 4 seasons after this
But the simple indisputable thing is If Russel and wilt switched places in 1967 (the only year wilt won)
Russel wouldn’t be able to beat wilts team
Winning is important
But when your out numbering hall of famers 4:1 it’s tough to say you were the reason for winning
@@universalplayz7496 1)5 mins left in Game 7 Boston up 103-94, Wilt twists his knee and leaves the game. Lakers immediately go on a run and its 103-102 with 2 min left, and Wilt wants to come back in but the coach doesnt put him back in. Celtics win 108-106. Jerry West was at his peak and won Finals MVP despite losing, and his next 5 seasons were 1st All NBA and 1st All Defense, so definitely wasnt past his prime.
2) Only Hondo and Don Nelson were on both of those teams.
3) Wilt was also surrounded by multiple HoFers his entire career.
Shit man, this video deserves way more views!
Iam a big Wilt fan, nobody can deny he was the greatest individual player of all time. However, basketball is a team sport and even the best individual player cant win on its own. Bill almost always had the better supporting cast, and most Wilt vs Russell games were thrillers that could’ve gone either way. Still tho, 11 titles in 13 seasons(8 of them in a row) is just insane!
And as Bill Russell himself said “to be the best you gotta beat the best, and my friend Wilt was definitely the best I’ve played against”
Greatest rivalry in NBA history for sure! Arch-enemies on the court, great friends off the court!
Basically stats vs. rings
I mean Russel has godly defensive stats
And wilt has had great playoff games
It’s more the difference of a defensive god who won vs offensive god (+ top 3 defender) who lost
Fully agree with the Better vs Greater part.
But the problem with Greater, and you acknowledge in your video is that a lot can be attributed to team success.
Bill had some incredible teammates through the years (although to be fair some of their greatness is overstated based on the championships they all won). But the Celtics for the time were well managed and coached (all Red).
Sadly Wilt didn’t benefit from his situation, nor did he have a tough enough coach to help him see it earlier.
“Younger players like [Jerry West] and Elgin Baylor”
Elgin was 2 years OLDER than Wilt.
Jerry was less than 2 years younger.
Younger by years spent in the league
@@TheAdrian229 - huh.
Elgin Baylor started in 58-59
Wilt 59-60
Jerry 60-61
So Elgin is both older and had more playing experience.
Jerry is 2 years younger, but only one year later into the league.
@@sambeaumont395 then I don't understand how could they be younger haha
"The 1992 Redeem Team."
- Ouch
meant dream team 🤣
hit hard
It's basically offense vs. defense and accolades
Wilt (estimated) blocked like 6 shots a game, he had an all time defense. Russell did too
One thing to bear in mind - if there was a DPoY award back then, Bill Russell may lose some MVP awards - like today with a defensive minded award the MVP would prioritise offence.
He should’ve lost multiple MVPs regardless
1962 mvp was by far the greatest mvp snub if not just award snub in nba history
There’s no human being alive that can argue 50/25 isn’t mvp winner worthy
U could go 0-82 and anyone alive would still say your the mvp
Also if dpoy existed, defensive stats woudlve existed and we all know what happens when stats and wilt mix he would be going out of his way to pile up defensive stats and might become the goat on offense and defense
@@universalplayz7496
Bill (19; 24 and 4) didn’t just beat Wilt (50 & 25 + 2) that year, he also beat Oscar (30, 12 & 11) in the first triple double season.
It could also be argued that the Lakers Baylor (38; 18; 5) and/or West (30; 8, 5) were also better candidates for MVP based on individual play.
However much like today, season records probably played a large part.
Celtics - 60-20
Lakers - 54-26
Warriors - 49-31
Royals - 43-37
The Celtics were the best team by quite a margin and Bill was their biggest name. But he also brought other intangibles. Probably also didn’t hurt that there was a general dislike for Wilt.
But yes some award winners weren’t as deserving.
@@sambeaumont395 I’m sorry you can go 0-82 but if your averaging 50-25 you deserve mvp
There is literal 0 logical reason for wilt not winning
And combine those numbers with wilt being the 2nd best defender in the league
I just don’t see it, bill Russel played a pretty mediocre (basically a bit better than his career average) while wilt played like a man possessed
I just don’t think there has ever been a worse mvp snub in history
(Ngl Oscar 30/10/10 is underrated this seasons)
And if win records mattered Baylor would’ve been mvp as his team was basically as good as the Celetics in record
Obviously the bias against Wilt, (referees, award votes etc etc) played a factor too.
But I wouldn’t say 11 games behind, in a 3rd seed, in a 9 team league is all that close to the Celtics that year. In many cases stat padding can be more detrimental to team success.
Bottom line a guy with great stats going 0-82 shouldn’t be considered for MVP, his value doesn’t lead to wins which is the aim of the game.
@@sambeaumont395 I’m saying the lakers were only 6 games behind or both Jerry and Baylor are better MVPs than bill
And wilt team did reach the playoff it’s not like he was losing every game
But truthfully nothing matters when you average 50/25 on 50%
Like there’s been many stat padders from the 60s to now yet no one has ever even touched 40/10
When it comes to stats defense or stocks would be the one thing you would want to pad.
Great vid you should watch Clayton Crowley’s video on them both
One of the best defensive players ever and one of the best offensive players ever
Wilt the better player bill had the better team
wilt is better than russel in seemingly every way, yet russel always won. thats the debate at its core, wilt was better at this and this and this, but russel beat him over and over and over, even if wilt is an objectivly better player its hard to say hes better than someone who beat him consistantly
Well bill didn’t beat him
The celetics with thier hof in every position and hof coach beat wilt+ 1 all star
It’s like saying Larry bird over Mj
Like mj torched the celetics but Larry went a perfect play off againist him in their entire career.
@@universalplayz7496wilt and Bill playoff points average are not that different,Bill scored when It had too
I loved your analysis on how much they contributed to their respective teams, and how their teams performed without them, but it felt as though you forgot your earlier data in the conclusion?
Russell did not dominate Chamberlain, ever. The Celtics generally dominated whatever team Wilt played on.
The the two times a healthy Wilt backed by a decent team and a good coach faced Russell's Celtics, they both won one series each. Wilt's 76ers won in 5 games in '67, and Russell's Celtics won in 7 games in '68.
I agree the wording of these two sections seem very contradictory, and the scripting of the both sections could've been adapted to be more clear. Here's my take on it:
The win share graphs he shows that he says speak to Wilt carrying his team and Bill not doing so are (at least to my knowledge) based in part on basic counting stats, which Wilt dominates in. A lot of the seasons where it looks the most like he's carrying on those graphs are the seasons he mentions in the conclusion where Wilt is taking more shots and losing. I think of those seasons not as Wilt carrying but instead suffocating his team's offense, which win shares can't effectively capture due to being focused on the box score.
Again I don't think the video itself does a good job explaining that difference so your confusion is understandable.
@@havlicekstoletheballcheck Bill and wilt playoff stats even in scoring they are similar Bill all the way
original Goat no George Mikan
Finally hope for the future learn the history basketball is basketball evloving
Using Win Shares to compare their impact isnt really fair to Russell. Most of the things that made Bill great werent recorded on the stat sheet, except the team score; no defensive stats except rebounds and his outlet passes didnt result in assists although they were vital to the offense.
I have posted new footage from wilt chamberlains 100 point game I found 2 photos one of the reporter and one of wilt walking during the game 2 audio recordings I found from a unknown quarter but I’m guessing 3rd quarter
Great video and Great Points but that 100 point game will always be my holocaust denial event
👍
Bill and wilt playoff stats arent that different,wilt was locked down in those series
What a joke the less he shoots the better his team are. Wilts shooting % was the best in the league. If no one is shooting at anything close how is its better he doesnt shoot?
Offensive variability. It also stops wilt from getting tired in crunch time if he isn't the only one scoring
@@williamwayne8345 when was Wilt ever tired or gassed? He never played less than 42 min even then he played 7 more minutes over the next highest played. The only player shooting over 51% and mostly off fade aways but we want other great Hall of famers who only shot at 42-46% we want them shooting instead. Even in playoffs wilt never shoot below 46% which for comparison Wilt worst was Jerry West best. Which Jerry West worst being under 30% but its better some how for the team if these shooters are shooting themselves out of games while Wilt is above 60%. The logic just doest add up to me. 22% or 60% who do you want taking the shot? Hell Wilt free throw % is better than these players field goal percentage.
@@williamwayne8345not really it’s more of the fact when wilt was scoring he would be setting up plays and ngl he was probably one of the greatest big man passer of all time when he wanted to be one
But this all completely ignores the fact that wilts teammate were different when he switched roles…
I think the difference is if nobody else on Wilt's team (60-65) basically even tried to score, then no matter how good Wilt was, he wasn't* good enough to out-score an entire NBA team.
* Most of the time.
@@c99kfm yes we know 1 won't beat 5 that play together. This video and honestly most if not all. Will tell you Wilt could only win if he is not even a scoring option. That his job or role changed so he can focus on defense or more specifically rebounding. Yet his rebounds didn't improve in fact they declined. His shooting % has always been one of the best but they did improve. There was one difference though his teammates were better. Imagine that his team's improved and so did his chances of winning. Really I have no issue or complaint with his play on the 76ers. Since they used him to score and for his passing. His role on the Lakers was another story. Not to mention the idea he only won after playing like Russell which isn't true. Russell was never the main, or 2nd, 3rd scoring option. When Wilt won with the 76er he was still the #1 scorer on that team. Even with the Lakers when he won he was 4th in scoring but in the playoffs against the Knicks he was the 2nd scorer. Wilt never won when he wasn't the main or 2nd scoring option. It's always been who ever is on the best team wins. I don't care who it is, no player is making a poor team win championships. You can swap Russell for Imhoff, and those Celtics will still win at least 5-8 championships. Swap him for Thurmond they win 10 or more. Put Russell on any team other than the Celtics and he wins 0. Put him with West and Baylor still wins 0.
Lebron is only in the goat debate if your talking with casuals. He’s not better at basketball then kobe
Kobe at absolute best barely cracks a top 10
Bias won’t change that
He wasn’t even close to the best player in his first 3 rings
He won a single mvp
Shot 44% for his entire career while not being a passer
Won 2 fmvps
That isn’t a goat resume
Hakeem resume is better , his got better defense, better playoff runs, same fmvps and didn’t shoot horrendously
@@universalplayz7496 oh lord another casual who doesn’t know shit about basketball. Kobe was in the goat convo before he died ain’t my fault you started watching ball after 2015.
Kobe wasn’t the best player for his first 3 chips but those other 2 during the 3 peat it was 1A, 1B. Shaq was more physically imposing, and had the weaker matchups as by the time he emerged all the great centers were gone. Anyone would have fed shaq those finals. Also, Magic played with Kareem, who unlike shaq already won a chip without his ass. Yet there still high on everyone’s list. The hypocrisy is disgusting. Shaq didn’t win shit until he played with kobe the teams closer, best defender, and playmaker. But he gets dragged down. But magic can play with Kareem THE ALL TIME LEADING SCORER who already won without him and that’s fine?
Yes kobe has 1 mvp but I don’t base my goat off stupid media voted awards that are ran by politics and who likes you. Your a casual tho so ofc that matters to you. I go off how good at basketball you are. Yes kobe has 1 mvp but he played at an mvp level longer then most guys, and at a higher level considering he was a 2 way player his whole career. Just cause he wasn’t winning some media voted award doesn’t mean he wasn’t playing like an mvp consistently.
Those 3 years after he tore his acl tanked his %. Outside of that do you understand basketball? Kobe never played with an elite Shot creator / facilitator out on the perimeter to bring the defensive attention off of him to ease his load, so he took a lot of shots as he has to be the end all be all for his teams perimeter offense.
And since LA never really had shooters / consistent 3pt threats the spacing was awful and forced kobe to shoot, create space, and gather himself with defenders all around him due to the horrible spacing, and lack of perimeter offensive threats. which will effect his fg%. Even then 44% on mostly contested shots is insane. Stop just looking at fg% you don’t know shit about basketball.
@@universalplayz7496 oh lord another casual who doesn’t know shit about basketball. Kobe was in the goat convo before he died ain’t my fault you started watching ball after 2015.
Kobe wasn’t the best player for his first 3 chips but those other 2 during the 3 peat it was 1A, 1B. Shaq was more physically imposing, and had the weaker matchups as by the time he emerged all the great centers were gone. Anyone would have fed shaq those finals. Also, Magic played with Kareem, who unlike shaq already won a chip without his ass. Yet there still high on everyone’s list. The hypocrisy is disgusting. Shaq didn’t win shit until he played with kobe the teams closer, best defender, and playmaker. But he gets dragged down. But magic can play with Kareem THE ALL TIME LEADING SCORER who already won without him and that’s fine?
Yes kobe has 1 mvp but I don’t base my goat off stupid media voted awards that are ran by politics and who likes you. Your a casual tho so ofc that matters to you. I go off how good at basketball you are. Yes kobe has 1 mvp but he played at an mvp level longer then most guys, and at a higher level considering he was a 2 way player his whole career. Just cause he wasn’t winning some media voted award doesn’t mean he wasn’t playing like an mvp consistently.
Those 3 years after he tore his acl tanked his %. Outside of that do you understand basketball? Kobe never played with an elite Shot creator / facilitator out on the perimeter to bring the defensive attention off of him to ease his load, so he took a lot of shots as he has to be the end all be all for his teams perimeter offense.
And since LA never really had shooters / consistent 3pt threats the spacing was awful and forced kobe to shoot, create space, and gather himself with defenders all around him due to the horrible spacing, and lack of perimeter offensive threats. which will effect his fg%. Even then 44% on mostly contested shots is insane. Stop just looking at fg% you don’t know shit about basketball.
@@universalplayz7496 oh lord another casual who doesn’t know shit about basketball. Kobe was in the goat convo before he died ain’t my fault you started watching ball after 2015.
Kobe wasn’t the best player for his first 3 chips but those other 2 during the 3 peat it was 1A, 1B. Shaq was more physically imposing, and had the weaker matchups as by the time he emerged all the great centers were gone. Anyone would have fed shaq those finals. Also, Magic played with Kareem, who unlike shaq already won a chip without his ass. Yet there still high on everyone’s list. The hypocrisy is disgusting. Shaq didn’t win shit until he played with kobe the teams closer, best defender, and playmaker. But he gets dragged down. But magic can play with Kareem THE ALL TIME LEADING SCORER who already won without him and that’s fine?
Yes kobe has 1 mvp but I don’t base my goat off stupid media voted awards that are ran by politics and who likes you. Your a casual tho so ofc that matters to you. I go off how good at basketball you are. Yes kobe has 1 mvp but he played at an mvp level longer then most guys, and at a higher level considering he was a 2 way player his whole career. Just cause he wasn’t winning some media voted award doesn’t mean he wasn’t playing like an mvp consistently.
Those 3 years after he tore his acl tanked his %. Outside of that do you understand basketball? Kobe never played with an elite Shot creator / facilitator out on the perimeter to bring the defensive attention off of him to ease his load, so he took a lot of shots as he has to be the end all be all for his teams perimeter offense.
And since LA never really had shooters / consistent 3pt threats the spacing was awful and forced kobe to shoot, create space, and gather himself with defenders all around him due to the horrible spacing, and lack of perimeter offensive threats. which will effect his fg%. Even then 44% on mostly contested shots is insane. Stop just looking at fg% you don’t know shit about basketball.
@@universalplayz7496 oh lord another casual who doesn’t know shit about basketball. Kobe was in the goat convo before he died ain’t my fault you started watching ball after 2015.
Kobe wasn’t the best player for his first 3 chips but those other 2 during the 3 peat it was 1A, 1B. Shaq was more physically imposing, and had the weaker matchups as by the time he emerged all the great centers were gone. Anyone would have fed shaq those finals. Also, Magic played with Kareem, who unlike shaq already won a chip without his ass. Yet there still high on everyone’s list. The hypocrisy is disgusting. Shaq didn’t win shit until he played with kobe the teams closer, best defender, and playmaker. But he gets dragged down. But magic can play with Kareem THE ALL TIME LEADING SCORER who already won without him and that’s fine?
Yes kobe has 1 mvp but I don’t base my goat off stupid media voted awards that are ran by politics and who likes you. Your a casual tho so ofc that matters to you. I go off how good at basketball you are. Yes kobe has 1 mvp but he played at an mvp level longer then most guys, and at a higher level considering he was a 2 way player his whole career. Just cause he wasn’t winning some media voted award doesn’t mean he wasn’t playing like an mvp consistently.
Those 3 years after he tore his acl tanked his %. Outside of that do you understand basketball? Kobe never played with an elite Shot creator / facilitator out on the perimeter to bring the defensive attention off of him to ease his load, so he took a lot of shots as he has to be the end all be all for his teams perimeter offense.
And since LA never really had shooters / consistent 3pt threats the spacing was awful and forced kobe to shoot, create space, and gather himself with defenders all around him due to the horrible spacing, and lack of perimeter offensive threats. which will effect his fg%. Even then 44% on mostly contested shots is insane. Stop just looking at fg% you don’t know shit about basketball.
respectfully i dissagree