Are Video Games Art?
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- čas přidán 18. 08. 2015
- Who's playing who in this argument?
Originally aired on June 3, 2013.
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Once upon a time, "art" simply meant doing something (_anything_) really, really well (eg: Art of War). Soon, it became a word to describe things of great beauty (paintings, sculptures, etc). These days I hear people describe "art" as anything that's able to move you, to elicit & evoke a great emotional response.
Video games, being the only entertainment form that requires the *active participation* of its viewers/audience to complete its process, are incredibly unique and offer a _very_ powerful, very intimate experience to its users/participants. Some say its "active" nature disqualifies it from being called "art", but..I think it actually makes video games one of the _strongest_ art forms out there.
Paradox Acres Totally. The critic said the difference between movies and games is "choice", and i'd say it's something else. I'd say it's becoming part of the story, becoming the character. Bioshock infinite for example; you become Booker, you're not simply watching him and you become emotionally attached to Elizabeth the same way he does.
Or in other games with less narrative like dark souls, you become the chosen undead and explore that huge world, being actually scared of going around a corner, feeling the tension of getting into a big fight...
I'd say videogames are the best medium to evoke feelings. No movie has been able to make me feel as much sadness, joy, anger or fear.
***** Yeah, that's true. It's more the sense of *agency* than merely having "choices".
Movies/tv shows are like _looking through a window_ into another world (watch Aragorn chop off the head of an Uruk-hai), while video games let you smash through that window and _be_ part of the story and/or world (be Aragorn and chop off that Uruk-hai's head, yourself).
_Bioshock:Infinite_ is a great example of how video games can do great stories by taking advantage of the "agency" that only video games can offer.
So wait, I have an art of video games? Well damn it means the level of expertise with refined mentality shifts
Oh truly, I agree on many points even to go as far as stress relievement in case of trauma or anything horrible... I go do some things such as play Tf2 which requires both skill and patience and it's not like shooting everything in sight.. One of the more artistic games I see are borderlands because of the sheer amount of weapons to find and choose to keep or throw away.. Fun? Yes. CoD is just horrible and doesn't express anything unique or entertaining about anything.. But don't get me wrong critic has been playing WoW and well you do have choice but it's a long road of trying to be the best of the best that can tower over any obstacle. I did play wow for a long time until I got to level 56 and then I stopped.. I had to control myself and looked for something else and I did play new games and shooters got me into a lot of the same craze I used to have with WoW.. I love thing thing arena 3 for introducing me how to get into shooters and become decent at shooters and to enjoy them
matt pink Using video games as stress relief or to help someone through trauma is kinda interesting, but..I'm not too sure of that.
It's possible but I don't think I've seen research about that aspect of video games. Sounds plausible, though.
Video games are unique. It's like the creators made a template on their canvas, and then let the players fill in the rest. It's art where anyone anywhere can contribute to it in their own way. But, the art itself is never truly defined or complete. It is both what the creators and you make of it, but only in the moment. It's a different form of art where your understanding and interpretation of it directly influences it itself. It's quite special.
Adrijana Radosevic What? You did not understand what I said at all. I'm not saying every other art is completely defined by the artist just because I said video games aren't complete because it needs someone to play it for it to really be anything.
ThatEntityPerson says the person with the shantae profile pic.
Six years later and this video still holds up big time
10:04 Man, doug's got some moves.
Yeah Doug Funny have some moves (who gets it comment remember).
It's from nickeloodeon's doug
Ding ding ding Johnny we have a winner.
whats the prize? lol
Nothing.
I'm writing a paper about Papers, Please right now. After all the research I was required to gather, I can definitely say it is a work of art. Lucas Pope, the creator, set out to explore the human condition in the game, and he sure blow a lot of people away with it. In my opinion, creating an emotion or message by making the player literally have to walk in some else's shoes may have more potential than some other mediums ever did (not that they aren't still great).
ShadyProductionsMC I'm happy to see you mention this game among all these The Last of Us and No Man's Sky suggestions. What Papers, Please does is unique and remarkable and highly effective, so it would a good candidate to be included in a video game high art canon.
Claus Jensby Madsen This. Papers Please uses videogame mechanics to tell its story, which I feel is a much better example of GAMES as art, even if some may argue that tLoU is better art.
Man, I remember when this video first came out.
By an unbelievable coincidence I was actually on the process of writing a school essay of the very same subject at the time. Naturally I used this as an information source and the end result was that I got 100 fucking percent score out of my paper, and this was by high school standards. And no, I didn't plagiarize anything I gave him all the credit from the quotes I used.
Thanks, Doug. You've done a lot of awesome shit.
Well done!
I think the best answer to this question is Mother 3. Just the sheer, raw emotion that game evokes makes it more than deserving of being called art
Yeah I agree
you, ethan, are someone I like Just for playing that game, Mother 3 is so great that it can be played by anyone, this game is childish, mature, stupid, sad, funny, hard but most of all friendly
Hopefully it will be released for the Japanese WiiU Virtual Console in 2016 (its 10th Anniversary), which may give it a chance to finally shine. EarthBound and EarthBound Beginnings have already gotten a lot of positive feedback, the chances are high!
ethan philpot In my opinion, video games have the potential to be THE highest form of art. Movies, books, and paintings can deliver strong messages and invoke emotion temproarily, but video games directly deliver a plethora of EXPERIENCES that can truly be unrivalled compared to just looking at movies/paintings or reading a book
ethan philpot Or "Gone Home".
I'll put it this way: No movie has made me feel more strongly about anything than a video game.
No movie has ever made me feel the spirit of adventure like Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic has.
No movie has put the fear of god in me like Slender: The Eight Pages has.
No movie has broken my heart as much as the final episode of Season 1 of Telltale's The Walking Dead has.
No movie has made me laugh as much as King's Quest VI has.
No movie has made me want to kill a character more than Far Cry 3 has.
No movie has enraged me as much as Dark Souls has.
People who ask if video games are truly "art", something that evokes emotions and calls to the humanity in us all to look beyond our own lives and witness and care about the events in another universe born from the mind of someone who probably spent too much time doing drugs in college, may not even know what art is themselves.
CraigNW bruh, that's deep
Too long, didn't read
CraigNW really? Slender? Okay.
CraigNW Bullshit... Movies and all other types of art can invoke an emotion in anyone as the viewers perception of reality will be unique from viewer to viewer. So your list is invalid, I feel excitement in a theatre when watching a great action film, even ones that are old and dated still give me the same emotions upon a second or even a third watching. Then again it is all the perception of the viewer which is subject to opinion, which is a personal choice. Choice is the thing that drives us to all be unique, without it we would all be the same boring person.
So, shall we start a chain in this comment section of OP's comment?
To the moon, Undertale, Shadow of collosus, Portal...there are a lot of brilliant games with a great story
Bioshock is usually the example I point to for this discussion.
That Blind Guy Why? It might be a good game, but from a artistic standpoint it's rather mediocre IMO.
Claus Jensby Madsen so is the last of us. just another zombie game and we have billions of those.
+MrAnimepredator Ahahaha. Aaaah. Ha. That's funny. And Schindler's List is just another war movie.
ZechsMerquise73 and would I rather watch that than Der Untergang? no.
I do love Spanky and Alfalfa.
Xenoblade Chronicles, Shadow of the Colossus and Life is Strange are all definitely breathtaking art.
was about to agree, read third example.
Okay it wasn't ground-breaking but it was pretty special to me. I agree the others are more stunning.
SandEcho ok, in that case i agree
What's wrong with Life is Strange aka my new favourite game of all time?
SandEcho btw, good to see someone who actually recognizes xenoblade as xenoblade instead of "that game with the "i'm really feeling it" guy".
Mother 3. Just... what more can I say? Heck, I'd like to see the Critic's opinion of it from a story and perspective point of view (since games aren't his thing). That game made me want to develop games instead of becoming an animator for Movies or such. Everyone should play it at least once; even if you hate games.
LucasMaxBrosXL I just started to play it a couple days ago, and I can't wait to continue. It's really good so far. :)
LucasMaxBrosXL I'd recommend Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons.
It's not the greatest in terms of stuff like writing or visuals (kinda like Mother 3, in terms of visuals I mean, although they both have a nice artstyle, I think), but it does something pretty neat with the mechanics towards the end of the game, which I think really complements what is going on in the game... I wasn't quite as bowled over as the likes of Totalbiscuit, maybe, but I can totally see where he was coming from, or I wouldn't be bringing it up now.
Especially that ending. That's something that you could only create from an interactive medium and it still gets me every time.
Sorry, but I don't know a lick of Japanese.
I think there are definitely games out there that can qualify as "artistic". Some examples off the top of my head: Shadow of the Colossus, Journey, The Last of Us.
Garrick Schultz When you say artistic, do you strictly mean in an audio-visual sense, it in a more general sense?
Claus Jensby Madsen In a more general sense.
Garrick Schultz Then I only partly agree with your top-of-your-head examples. For example, Journey stands out and deserves a mention, but a game like The Last of Us? It's just a well produced run-of-the-mill choose-your-own-adventure game which doesn't do anything spectacular or remarkable with the artistic medium and most likely will be completely forgotten within 10 years. I really can't see it as a Casablance of a A Clockwork Orange of video games.
Claus Jensby Madsen I disagree on multiple counts. First off, The Last of Us was an incredibly emotional experience for millions who played it and was worth so much more that just a "run-of-the-mill" adventure game (also, it isn't really a choose your own path). Second, I consider The Last of Us art in the same way I consider something like Star Wars art. It's not conventionally "artsy", but it still has a lot of emotional resonance, which is the basis of all good art.
Garrick Schultz I don't disagree that the game is emotional or that it's art. I just find it overrated. I agree it's very well made, but if you think about it, it doesn't really do anything remarkable or slightest innovative with the medium, which is why I think it artistically speaking is a run-of-the-mill game. There's next to nothing which utilizes the possibilities unique to this medium. The emotional effects rely entirely on the story, scripted scenes, animations and voice acting - all of which could easily be used in another medium like a movie. I don't say it's a bad game - just that there's nothing 'special' or 'remarkable' about it, and therefore I don't regard it too highly artistically.
Besides, Star Wars is soon 40 years old. Do you honestly think The Last of Us will still be talked about, let alone remembered in, say, 10 years? In 20 years? It doesn't nearly have the cultural impact like Star Wars has. No offense, but I find the comparison a bit ludicruous.
There's nothing wrong with mindless escapism. The games I want to make are what could be considered "mindless escapism". Also, games are a fairly young medium, only being about 40 years old while movies, books, and paintings have had a long time to become considered art.
Cascaded Volcano Agreed. Not every game *need* to be art. Same with books and movies.
how do you figure 40 years? i grew up with the original nintendo and im only 28.
+twig 46 the first video games(like pong and pacman) were made around 40 years ago.
@@selahanany5645 pong and pacman are not the first made video games. They've been around since the 1940s.
@@ThaqtRamone do you mean commercial or private-use?
Easy. Of course. 5 Games prove my point. To The Moon, The Last of Us, BioSchock Infinite, Chrono Trigger, Life is Strange. Some bonus: The Walking Dead, Portal (2), Shadow of the Colossus, Resident Evil 4, Uncharted 2. Like come on guys
How is Portal only a bonus? It's the best out there because it's so artfull
you forgot the best one.
ff6
Kefka Palazzo This was more of a personal list, so I forgot about FF6. But yeah, you're right
Let me ask: which of those games use the fact that they are games to reinforce their art. Chrono certainly doesn't. Neither does Portal. I would give that to TWD and SotC, and LiS to a lesser extent.
GJameso How does chrono not show how it is art? Do you remember the opening segment
Even games that don't allow tons of control over story do things that normal art cannot accomplish. One of the reasons why I love the Legend of Zelda series is because it puts you in the characters role. You can change very little about the world, but it is amazing because you experience what the character does. It's something books and movies can't hope to accomplish.
Exactly.
And you dont need to play it straight either. You're allowed to fumble around and explore, which is so cool.
Just going to throw two titles out there: Papers Please and The Stanley Parable.
Though these two games are about as opposite as any two games can get, I think they're both indisputable examples of video games as high art, and just a few hours spent with each of them will make that abundantly clear.
Is video game art?
CupHead, the whole game.
I mean, it's less of the gameplay and more of the presentation. It's a 2d sidescrolling shooter, with high difficulty, but was created with hand drawn animation and backgrounds reminiscent of the shorts from the 20s-40s, and that's what drew people. Films and painting do the same thing. People make several pieces of the same basic idea, but when it's given a unique twist to he basics, it grabs our attention. Many films came out in 2017, but Dunkirk grabbed a lot of people's attention because it was a film about war's reality, but not in a horrifying way, more like a more neutral stance of "war is terrible, but don't dis the people who fight them because they were lucky, and sometimes there are no heroes but guys doing their job and surviving." Very rarely do war films make you feel glad that this war was fought without glorifying it. Same with Cuphead: a basic idea, but brings you a twist to give off a new experience.
@@re1010 lol that doesn't take away from what he's saying on if it's art or not!
Video games are obviously art, just like all other forms of entertainment. By saying it's not art, you're doing a huge disservice to the people who put a lot of love and care into these games. And that's crappy.
art is not a "form of entertainment", see the definition of art in this video
@@rocketrebelracerstudios9816 but ultimately art is beyond that.
As someone who greatly invests himself in the writing, design, and over-all story-telling aspects of the gaming world, I can greatly say that at this point in time, we have achieved the rank of giving games the title of High Art. Fantasy games like the Witcher (though based off a Polish book series) have created such a rich and vibrant world on par with Tolkein's own Lord of the Rings series. A classic title like Mother 3 has been able to deliver strong emotional feel to people in a game that was initially marketed towards kids with the message about family and never giving up hope. The Mass Effect franchise has one of the greatest over-arching storylines I've ever seen, and has given us characters so well written, so unique that they're almost like living beings themselves. And need I even go into the variety of messages conveyed in the great deal of Indie titles that have come out recently (even though, at this point they're kinda getting hammered in? I'm looking at you, DLC Quest!)? Sure, we've got our mindless Doom, Duke Nukem, and Battlefield titles from time to time, but still, so long as people are enjoying it, it's considered art in my book.
I think the game that made video games into high art is metal gear on the msx-2
Doom not being high art? Please, spare me.
The feeling of being taking on hell itself as a lone man armed with the bravery and technology of mankind, subsequently coming out on top and being just as if not more remembered as a classic and an example today and for all of our future, is not high art? When I first played Doom in the year of our lord 2020, I felt something that I previously never had. Adrenaline rushes and the feeling of being the thing hell feared, sure, a million times before. Doom was not more of it, it was just a special. You were Doomguy, that was unique, that was (and is forever inherently) exclusively a gaming experience, and I'll go as far as to call it high art.
I think that games are most artful when they make the gameplay itself a part of the narration, a part of an experience. For example "Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons". There are two brothers and the younger one is afraid of water because his mom died in ocean. The player controlls both characters simulatnously using different buttons on one pad. There is a moment when the young kid must swim through ocean during the storm and the twist is that the player must use the buttons that used to control older brother who unfortunatelly was killed. This is an incredible creative thing. The kid manages to swim across not to let his brother's sacriface be wasted. It is something that could not be achieved via any other medium.
Games have something that any art form like film or music lacks - immersion. The feeling of beeing steeped in virtual reality. That's why movie horrors will be never as scary as horror games like Amnesia or Silent Hill series. One of the deepest games is Silent Hill 2 - psychological horror. Every monster we come across has its role. And the pleyer must win against fears as well as the main character. Games are AWESOME ;)
First episode i sat through the outro for.
*Woah!*
...
Doug has incredible dance moves :D
woah, i rate this comment a woah/woah
"You'd look stupid, if you play this too."
It's not stupid. It's fun. Stupid, is denying challenges.
Majora's Mask, Mother 3, Xenoblade. These are some of the best examples of video games that are art while still being fun and great games in all aspects.
Xenoblade is great.
But Xenogears is almost pefect.
My definition of art is when it isn't just funny or entertaining, but you have other feelings about it, or it makes you think about something.
Canyon F Can be.
Very thought-provoking stuff. I suggest Flower and Okami. Also Silent Hill 2, if you can handle it.
Also: Shout-out to the Panda Priest Posse!
Undertale. Mother 3. The Last of Us. Journey. The Witcher 3. Nuff said.
The Stanley Parable even advanced the art form of video games into post-modern territory.
All video games bring something new to the art status quo: interactivity. A few examples:
Mechanics games: Mario, Shovel Knight, Spyro, the story may not be very important, but the sheer feeling and satisfaction in learning mechanics and executing them through a character to get an objective.
Story games: Ico, Portal, Bastion, Spec Ops: The Line, all of them have one mechanic that's used to tell the story and the mere way it's presented may be really thought provoking.
Cinematic games: Metal Gear, Last of Us, Final Fantasy VII-now. These games are great but I sincerely think these kind of games are going to fall in popularity in the future, because they put too much emphasis on the cinematic part that the 'game' part drags the experience down, they are, like Doug said, just imitating movies, something that audiences are familiar with, when another game do the same thing they did with story, but with memorable gameplay, they will fall apart.
The Legend of Zelda seems to fit into all 3 of these categories, if not just the first two.
I'd say it fits only in the first two. The Zelda series was never really a cinematic experience (Twilight Princess being a possible exception). And even of the first two categories, the franchise fits mostly on the first. The mechanics/gameplay has always been the main focus of the series in general.
But some, like Majora's Mask or Link's Awakening, for example, I think fit better in the story category, while the rest are more about the gameplay, while giving the story and characters just enough attention to tie it all together. This is all my personal opinion of course, feel free to disagree.
Edgar Caldeira Zelda is clearly heavy on game mechanics but the story has always been huge ever since Ocarina of Time. Take any game after that (Oracles, Wind Waker, Four Swords, Minish Cap, Skyward Sword) and the story gets the player really involved, or at least it attempts to.
Nerdy George Washington Sure, but I was just saying that the main focus is the mechanics/gameplay. So it fits better in the mechanics category. But it could arguably fit in both, I agree.
uh metal gear is full of mechanics and is heavy focus on story as well (if its good or bad is up to your interpertation of it i personally enjoy it) while on 4 you can say it went more cinematic but as you play the 5th you see more mechanics, same with ff xv and a lot of other games that keep innovating and adding extra mechanics, while trying to make a good story and from time to time be cinematic (to be honest uncharted 2,3 and 4 just pull all of those 3 factors with ease)
There is high art in movies (birdman), and there is mindless garbage (Transformers). The same could be said for games. There is high art (Last of us) and then there is mindless junk (CoD). Games are art. No question.
Michael Martinez The Last of Us? Personally I find that game somewhat overrated. It's not a bad game - I'm just not convinced it's the best example of an artistic game we can find. If I may be a bit provocative it's basically equivalent to a choose-your-own-adventure book.
I think we should look for games where the mechanics of the game are much better integrated with the story, the tone and the message of the game. Games like Papers, Please and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons shows what direction a game probably should go if it aspires to become high art.
Michael Martinez So what do you rhink of games like the 2d and 3d Mario and Legend of Zelda games?
Claus Jensby Madsen I've been suggesting Brothers in a few other comment strings, was about to suggest it to you before I noticed the "read more" and saw you'd already brought it up lol
But yeah, you could maybe even suggest some of the more intricate fighting games or something like Wonderful 101, maybe Devil May Cry 3... Thomas Was Alone kinda tied in character with what the characters could do, although maybe not totally directly... Maybe Metal Gear Solid due to stuff like the Psycho Mantis fight, I dunno...
In the end, art can be pretty subjective anyway... And with stuff like games and movies, or theatre, etc. one problem in judging them is that they are made up of multiple media, in a sense... I think video games is the most complex to judge because it can have the most facets... controls, control methods and gameplay systems... Maybe even the code could be done so well that it could be considered art in its execution... And then all the other parts, like sound, music, imagery, storytelling, cinematography, acting (voice, motion capture etc.) and all sorts... In a way games are a collection of artforms and not just one in and of itself... Sorry, I'm rambling a bit >_>;
+Michael Martinez I personally think that The Last of Us is Overrated, you should change that for Journey or Shadow of the Colossus
Michael Martinez I find birdman as close to garbage
This is the thing that separates video games from all other media, and this is the thing that will prevent art "snobs" from seeing them as such...games are not meant to be just observed, they're meant to be experienced. Games have one key thing that makes them great, which isn't an issue with other forms of media, a truly masterful game, will immerse you into it, and bring you into it's world, it's themes, it's characters, it is not very accessible to those who aren't willing to take action in something that doesn't exist-
However-
If you ARE willing to immerse yourself into the world and the role you play, it automatically has more artistic potential than any other form of media-
It conveys a debate about morals and life and philosophy, by giving you choices, and the agency to shape the world without consequence, it teaches lessons and life experience by putting you in the drivers seat in a car where the breaks are replaced with a second gas pedal on a straight way to madness, and allows you to become fully immersed in life or death situations, complex decisions, and countless other things like nothing else can. Video games aren't art? How can that be true when videogames are combination of all forms of art? Writing, imagery, acting, directing, all the components that other forms of media have, plus one thing which no other media can ever replicate-
You.
You as a player, are the key to unlocking all of this and making it all work-
Video games are inherently unique, because they aren't JUST art, video games are unique because they have the power to make YOU art-
I love this so much!
My teacher put this on so we could have a better idea on the topic he was discussing and I was the only one who got a perfect score in our quiz later on... Thanks Doug for making me like school even for 11 minutes.
i can stand sitting down and playing a video game for hours. what i can't stand is having to buy special DLCs or whatever they're called to fully enjoy a game. you don't download each scene of a movie or a painting separately so why can't video game developers release everything all at once?
Thomas Hall Most DLCs are just extras, even extra episodes not actually important to the narrative, but yeah, too many noteworthy games have felt incomplete because of DLC.
Thomas Hall Now I don't like having to buy DLC, but think of DLC in movies being a deleted scene (bad comparison, but it'll do) You don't need the scene, but you can buy the dvd of the directors cut to view them. Sometimes DLC and/or deleted scenes are what make or break, improve or lessen a work, they aren't necessary some times, they are just there if you want more, and they cost money to support the developers of it and the producers, thus encouraging them to make more of that product until it doesn't make money.
+John Smithy This is especially true of the two Harry Potter 7 movies. They left out so much stuff that appeared in the book and in the deleted scenes.
Thomas Hall Most DLCs are just to cash in, and the majority of them are shit. There are very few exceptions of good DLC. The Last Of Us Left Behind is a good example of DLC done right. It actually expands on Ellie's character. We get to see a side of her we haven't seen before. We see what she was like before she met Joel. Compare this to the next Destiny DLC.
So, how do you guys like *free* DLC?
As with everything in life, this comes down to the individual - a game one hates may be adored by another, and vice versa. Everyone has their own opinions as to what game constitutes art, but it takes some amount of courage for someone who may not like a certain style of game to take a fair crack at one to see the merit of said game.
Before Fallout 3 I hated first person shooters or locked 1st person views. Granted, the game has a 3rd person view too, but this is what made it possible for me to try out other games that were locked into 1st person view. So I now see the merit of these kinds of games, so can also appreciate the artistic value too. Just my opinion, anyway...
Souji Monaru I don't think it necessarily comes down to what games we like... I mean many of us like them for the graphics, the soundtrack, the storytelling... But yeah, what makes a painting great? The style, method and skill, maybe imagery, displayed through the medium of paint... A sculpture... A piece of music... It's usually about showing off what you can do with that medium...
Now, while stuff like movies and video games combine many different artforms together, you could say it's partly about mixing these things together well through film or in video game format, but let's not forget that the core component of games is probably mechanics... The way the game works... Is a game necessarily a work of art in gaming terms if it doesn't make great use of such a core element that has such amazing potential to add in an artform that it should probably be the focus of?
If you were to watch a playthrough of The Last of Us, that might be a pretty good movie... But does it make as good use out of mechanics like something like Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons? Maybe not all the way through, but certainly near the end, the events in the story will affect how you've been using your controls and adds to the experience... You will probably not get the same experience watching as you will playing... And outside of the normal stuff too... Maybe you could also consider stuff like Metal Gear Solid for the Psycho Mantis fight... Sorry I'm going on a bit >_>;
Sure, it's all opinion in the end, but there are a small number of games that most can agree on as examples of great art, games that stand the test of time.
To me, the underlying difference is immersion. Movies are a great medium but you personally have no stake in the story. A video game that is done right will draw you in because you are the vehicle in which the story progresses. If something happens to the character, to you, you know it and you'll fight to keep it from happening. One of my all time favorite games did this perfectly well. Dark Souls. When you come across a boss for the first time and watch it tear towards you like a bat out of hell or the first time you're invaded and you're overcome with a mixture of excitement and dread, I've never had anything do that for me. It's gripping, it sucks you in, you become invested with pushing forwards. It's very thrilling
One of the best examples of risk-taking and experimentation is Undertale.
It is full of colorful and unique characters that don't mess with the protagonist as much as they mess with the player directly, and call into question your morals and behavior.
Killed someone and reverted to a previous save to undo it? They'll call you out.
Doing the genocide run? They'll call you, the player, out for the monster you are.
Are you watching a let's play of the genocide run? _They will call you out for it._
Shadow Of The Colossus and Journey, two of my favourite games of all time, earn this because of the raw emotions they convey. Both are minimalistic, but tell important details of the story through subtler times, such as Wander (SotC) flailing his sword with no real strength behind the swing, or the Walker (Journey) seeing premonitions in a tapestry-like form to reflect the story. Journey subtly follows the heroes' journey story structure flawlessly, while Shadow of the Colossus doesn't tell it's story outright, save for a couple of cutscenes that simply explain the 'here and now', instead letting the player fill in the blanks, especially emotionally.
The games that has come closest to those legendary films are games like the Persona franchise or something like Okami which are beautiful and have phenomenal stories.
I say Mother 3 just because the Sheer Raw emotion you go through as you play. Especially the end of the game
+Jake Eisenhumna Have you played Okami to the end? I always tear up just before the final final battle.
Nah but I DID watch Chuggaaconroy's lets plays of Okami and Okamiden
Cyclon I am not familiar with the Persona franchise, but if we are looking for a truly legendary video game, then beauty and phenomenal story wouldn't be enough - a legendary game would transcend "just" being a good looking game with a good story.
Jake Eisenhumna Mother 3 is also very good
I think the question of if video games are art should be "have you played To The Moon or MOTHER 3?"
My ex and I used to have this argument. My argument was video games are as socially relevant as books and films, as I have a shared experience with some one who I have never met who has also played say Pokemon. The same way as I have something in common with other people who have read Harry Potter.
Well I have a better question: Are Tiger games video games???
These are a caveman's version of video games, these were a step back in human evolution, these are the most desperate attempt at entertainment!
avgn
Bad games, they're not art. AVGN says it.
Dark/demon souls and bloodbourne series, Final fantasy 7 Compaliation, Earthbound series, all amazing art, even just in the character designs alone or the music. U cant argue that
If "Cuphead " doesn't convince people games are art, then nothing will.
You haven’t played much games, have you?
@@sharkymcsnarkface6642 Let him be, if he enjoyes it, he enjoyes it, where's a problem whit that?
@@cecz6693 bravo sir
I agree with you. Cuphead has beautiful disney like animation. I think the should be seen as art. 🙂
Breath of the wild ?
The video that started it all...
My first view of the Nostalgia Critic...
These twelve minutes hold a very special place in my heart that I will never forget.
gg NC, gg
*To anyone reading this: What was the first Nostalgia Critic video you saw?*
Mario Hyrulia This was also my first Nostalgia Critic video, and is just as good as the first time I watched it.
Mario Hyrulia It was either The Adventures of Sonic The Hedgehog or The Room. Have you seen his review of The Room?
***** Yes.
+Lucciano Bartolini his one on big lebowski
+Lucciano Bartolini his one on big lebowski
Fallout/Fallout 2 and Planescape Torment for writing and atmosphere, and a narrative on the human spirit.
Mother series, 1-3 for invoking strong emotions.
Doug I personally would want to hug you for expressing this essay on this subject. I think its because of you that I can write much better and more fluently
i relly like those editorials, thanks Doug, is really nice to take the time and think for a sec, and yes...the ending was freakign hilarious.
a few games I consider art (off the top of my head) :
Paper mario thousand year door
Earthbound and mother 3
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (2005), my all-time favorite game, has a cohesive and compelling story that touches on all of the following themes to varying degrees:
-Racism
-The detachment of politics from the everyday realities of the people they govern
-The corruption of rulers
-Mob mentality
-Revenge/retribution
-Grief/loss of loved ones
-Betrayal
-Genocide
-The forgiveness of sins
-The uncomfortable realities of how war affects civilians
-The importance of soldiers' lives
-The implications of imperial and monarchical forms of government and how they affect commoners
-The importance of independent thought over accepting others' teachings without question
-The difficulty of following the right path even when it's known
-Anti-immigrant prejudice
-The ethics of scientific experimentation
-The value of people's lives separate from their power and achievements
It also has excellent strategy RPG gameplay on top of all that, so the story isn't the only appeal.
People who say that video games are not art assume that games such as this one do not exist.
Xenoblade Chronicles (2010) is another great one, but I haven't played through it as many times, so I can't just rattle off a whole list of themes like the above, but it also has a fantastic story. You just don't hear about them because they weren't really marketed at all at the time of their release. And now that the Fire Emblem series has become popular, copies of Path of Radiance are rare and expensive.
Carl Filion The GBA games have good stories. Awakening doesn't have the best story, but the gameplay is fun. Fates also has fun gameplay, and the story is okay.
As for Path of Radiance, you might check out a Let's Play of it to get the story. It's seriously amazing. I'm thinking about making a Let's Play of it myself. Of course, first I'll have to buy recording equipment and video editing software...
@@celeste1823 you can use emulators
Journey is a retelling of the hero's journey story with no dialogue. Played entirely through the music and scenery that you move your character through. One of the quickest games I felt a connection to the character, and one of the most powerful emotional guidance that I had the pleasure to experience. Just like a good book series or movie. Every character had an ability to stir some sort of emotion. It is high art, even with telling the basic story of every great adventure.
Art, like beauty, is all up to the observer. It's subjective.
You guys gotta admit, Minecraft would definitely make his list had he played it.
You don't just explore the world. You craft the world.
Fuck Minecraft. 😠😠😠
TheMAMAnimations EXACTLY!!! For all the people "it isn't art" then try some games like the Bioshock Trilogy, The Mass Effect Trilogy, The Sims, Minecraft, Metal Gear Solid, Mother 3, and the lists goes on.
StupendousRex 65 Why? Because it's overrated?
TheMAMAnimations Minecraft is definintely kitsch. :-D
minecraft is overrated but its allso art not high art on its own. you can make high art wiht it but its like a paintbrush it can be ingraved but is still not a vangoh even if it was used to paint one.
Yeah I'd say so. Look at, say, Mother 3 or FE4.
I think there are a decent number of games which can be called "high art" that is, games that successfully express a deeper meaning beyond entertainment alone (and there are those games which might not have deep meaning as their goal, but still offer great artistic value through a display of great technical achievements or unique visuals). Some games I have personally played that I would consider "high art" are Journey, Shadow of the Colossus, Inside, and The Last of Us. There are also those games that may not be consistantly "high art", may be trivial entertainment in many aspects, but nonetheless have moments that elevate them to be remembered and valued. It was, for example, Kingdom Hearts- an absurd mashup between Disney and Final Fantasy- that made me see the potential for video games to be more than mere entertainment. Kingdom Hearts is not "high art" by any means, but it has moments of genuine elevation, genuine emotion. There are many beloved games in that category.
Hey man, Doing an essay about this topic, this video really helped me. Thanks :)
I consider the Dark Souls series to be high art with all its metaphors of what light and dark mean to us and how people deal with change.
the idea of how our actions can effect those around you as well of yourself and going back and forth wondering are you making the right choice
GokaikillerTobi and also the soundtrack is amazing and the locations and world itself are a beauty to behold (bloodborne in particular)
Definitely and also the concept that giving up makes you hollow but persevering makes you more then that
I consider many rpg maker games art.Misao,Ib,and Mad Father are really unique in a way.
Especially something like Yumme Nikki or 2kki that change art styles. That's something you don't see often in video games.
And Undertale.
One video game which comes to mind when this question is posed is Shadow of the Colossus. The somberness, the realization that you are more monstrous than the giant monsters you slay, and the emptiness that makes you feel like the rapture has just happened all combine to make a game that you simultaneously feel awful for completing, yet also leaves you awestruck at what you saw and experienced.
One of the reasons I'm watching this again is for the endslate of him dancing. it's just....priceless
If an art form needs to evolve art in a new way, then I'm pretty sure video games have been high art since SNES in the form of a little gem called Chrono Trigger. Calling the art itself simplistic would be an understatement, but for the technology used it was sufficiently advanced for its time. As for the story? That's why I'd call it a high art candidate. The general plot stays the same no matter what, but the story can change in so many different ways that will completely alter what happens at the end (and in some cases even before the beginning) of the story in a way that doesn't change the tone or making it feel unnatural (except for the obvious 4th wall endings, but even those don't break the tone). It's something that simply cannot be replicated by a movie in any way. Even books can't replicate it without issues (not that choose your own adventure stories haven't tried anyway).
[INSERT BART'S NIGHTMARE JOKE HERE]
4:34 Shoutout to the Panda Priest Posse!
You are so calm about everything, it literally hurts.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the kingdom hearts series.The story, the characters the graphics and the amazing battle effects.I consider it art, and perhaps the best collaboration of all time.
*Yes!*
(explosion in background)
I demand a full length, uncut version (with original audio) of Doug playing that MJ video game!!!!
Spec Ops: The Line is a serious look at the relationship between layers of the mind, and incorporates the player in its powerful story.
I'm playing through BioShock Infinite for the second time and I have to say it really does feel like something beyond just a simple video game.
The arts are Music, Art, Photography, Movies, Videogames and Books so yes Videogames are art 😀😀😀😀
Detention and Fran bow are perfect examples of high-art video games. Both tell compelling stories that make you think afterwards
I'd love to see an updated video by NC on the subject after the last few years brought some amazing games like Her Story, Life is Strange or The Witcher 3.
I think Doug played the wrong games.
t1288 I think so too.
t1288 Doug you should play The Last of Us, thumbs up so he can see this.
miniforti Yes, he should because it's a good game.
It's not a good example of high art within video games though.
I think Silent Hill 2 was one of the first games that tried (and succeded in most parts) to make an overall coherent experience. Braid was the first game I ever played achieving this. Nowadays, there are a lot games out there.
t1288 Maybe he should play ICO, Shadow of the Collosus, Journey, Silent Hill 2, Half Life Saga, Stanley Parable... Just to mention something...
George RR Martin is a 72 year old writer, and Roger Ebert is a 78 year old film critic
Let's just say that these aren't the right people to answer such a big debate
To hit some low picking fruit, I have to mention Journey on the PS3. This game, from the setting, to the dialogue, to the journey from place to place, brings out emotions in a way I've only experienced while looking at a Van Gogh painting or Vonnegut novel. Even the extra content only serves to re-engage the player in a sense of awe.
Game that comes to mind is Soma quite a beautifull piece which explore philosophical and psychological questionning through it's story.
Other might be journey who i heard was stunning (sadly i don't own a ps3/4) or Rime that is beautiful as well and is centered on the 5 stage of grief, or even The Talos principle who explore philosophical questionning about AI... So many good game nowadays if you search a little
Play darksouls. The game is about the struggle over death. The game is difficult and you die constantly. But to prevail, you must press on in the face defeat untill you learn from your mistakes and win. The game is great not because of the the in your face message is good, it actually isn't. But because the underlieing message that emerges as you play, explains that you must try again if you want to win.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you've never stopped killing enemies to ponder what ideas the areas in that game are about, try spending some time in Anor Londo, Duke's Archives, and Crystal Caves. Anor Londo in particular is a 3 dimensional high art painting if ever I saw one.
Not also that, they story they are telling in each location, things are there for a reason.
absolutely
Did you really just call video games “ a cheap watered down movie?” I really can’t believe that
Hearing you talk about Mario bros wii, actually gave me so much nostalgia, I dug out my old wii
I think a good example of Art in a video game is we happy few if you haven't already seen it you should check it out it's a very intriguing story about if ignorance is bliss or if you should try to fix what you already have. Or games like The Stanley Parable with multiple endings and multiple ways to get in the same ending it explores how people react to instructions and if following blind instructions is truly the best way to go through life.
Undertale is an artistic masterpiece. Roger Ebert would've loved it
People seem to suggest very contemporary game titles. Remember the video game industry is very young, and yet it's 40 years old. Who will study, talk about, or even remember these games in 5 years? In 10 years? In 20 years?
Claus Jensby Madsen super Mario, packman and other games such as these are seen as hall marks in gaming history and games go further back than computer games it is just that the medium has changed and as such how the games were played allowing this to extended to monopoly or chess. if you wish to limit the discussion to computer games please specify as such. while the discussion has been largely based on computer games i dont see how it cannot translate to its prior mediums and their current forms as well seeing as they are a diffrent branch on the same tree.
Sean Rea Yes, I was talking about video games specefically, but I don't see how it couldn't translate to board games as well.
it comes down to the mechanics (rules) and what they are trying to portray. for example monopoly is an example of how unrestrained capitalism works. the art is in the rules of the game and how the game plays. games of chance are is less fitting for in depth evaluation of what it is meant to portray and teach. then there are trading card games with complex mechanics and rules of their own. video games track the rules and do the math for us but the inherent concept of these games are in base concept decendents of more traditional non electronic games.
If anyone is looking for one of the masterpieces of video games, something that to me proves that a video game can be art, play machinarium, or samorost, or any other game from aminata studios. Their games, while offering limited choice, are some of the most visually stunning pieces of art I've ever seen. The sound design is amazing, and the atmosphere is incredible.
I think I might even say it's one of those games that will be remembered as classics, years in the future.
4:34 ....uhh? Is that Achievement Hunter? 0.o
5:19 Okay, definitely is! Was not expecting that.
Mother 3
That is all
My take: I cannot consider video games as an art form because of the gameplay. The "act" of controlling someone or something isn't an art form.
However, if you break down a video game into its core components, there IS art in it:
- The *graphics* are similar to sculpture... with a 3D shape instead of clay or stone.
- The *animations* are related to acting and theatre, especially with mocap.
- The *levels* are from architecture and design.
- The *voicework*... speaks for itself.
- The *story* is like any script from a movie, a play, a TV series or a novel.
- The *music*... doesn't need explanation about whether or not it's an art form.
- The *cutscenes* are related to filmmaking, complete with storyboards even.
- The *concept arts* are related to drawing, painting and whatnot.
and then:
- The *controls*... are the ONLY thing that cannot be related to an art form.
If a game makes you cry or wow you, it's not because of the A button, but mostly because of the well-written story and/or sense of immersion the [3D] world gives you. If you make a choice that you actively regret later, then the story gives you that feeling, not the left arrow on your d-pad. Sure, choice is taken in account, but in the end, the story affects you, because its choices are part of it.
So yeah... video games aren't art as a whole because the gameplay isn't an actual art form, but video games DO contain various art forms to "compensate".
You know there exist interactive art, right?
MrJechgo art is in the entire experience and not just its pieces. the mechanics of the game fusing with its unique world and atmosphere is what would make a game into art and not just being comprised of art. if you isolate a number out of a musical or take a scene from the movie, even if they can stand alone they are made more complete with the full piece.
+MrJechgo I'd say there is certain error in regarding only as components of art the things that are similar to what has already been done. Point being, the gameplay may as well be regarded as one of those components, making it the thing that separates games from other art forms from which it builds upon.
MrJechgo Please good sir, go play papers please, and you will understand that the interaction with the medium is as important as the art itself.
Game link
papersplea.se/
+Claus Jensby Madsen Care to tell me a few examples?
I've personally played some games that moved me and got me thinking so deeply that its hard to not consider it high art, though this is in a personal sense. There's games like Shelter 2 that bring me to tears and make me actively think differently about my actions through the story it has told. There's The Endless Forest that, while in quite low production even for its time, taught me new ways to view people and the world around me, and it taught me to be curious and creative. And the Legend of Spyro series that taught me what I love about characters, and challenged me to write my own characters and stories, leading me to aspiring professions. I think I'd be a completely different person without that game. Other people might think these are the worst games to ever have existed, and most of the games (especially The Endless Forest) don't have a lasting effect on you unless you grew up with them like I did. I do think the world needs more time to think video games are high art, but consider me convinced.
Did Anyone notice the reference to Rooster Teeth's AH team, Gav, Ray, and Michael at 5:19? Kinda funny, as Rooster teeth uses game play to create movies, videos and such by following a structure just as a movie would. They further expand on this by playing outside of the games script which offers new story lines outside of what the game developers had planned. For instance, Red vs. Blue took what was originally a video game about aliens and humans and built a story about opposing teams who eventually find that their world is not what they thought it was. Heck, some of the characters find that they weren't what they thought they were.
I don't know if NC intentionally snuck the reference in here or if it was purely accidental, but it did give me a chuckle.
Metal Gear is proof that video games are art.
ye
This came out the same year the question was answered.
IE: When Undertale was released
Nope, when mother 3 was released
Some games you might find really nice to play and along the realms of high art! I work in game animation so I absolutely love talking about games haha.
1. "Journey" by Thatgamecompany. While short, it's a wordless story told though the environment, music, and player experience that i've seen cause players to cry during their first blind run through. A strong contender for video games being art and the first that many will name when asked the question.
2. "Limbo" and "Inside" by Playdead. More wordless games that are told through environment and player action, but focus on some very serious and often disturbing themes. Less outright shock value and gross out and more fringe horror. There is a LOT of the story that you need to look into to truly understand and interpret and people are STILL talking about what these games endings meant.
3. "Shadow of the Colossus" by Team Ico. This is a behemoth of a game. Insanely large in scale of both environment and story. The pacing is incredible, the music absolutely stunning and the quiet contemplative nature of some of the moments can really make you as a player pause and ask "just why am I doing all this? what does this mean? does it have to be this way?" To be honest anything by Team Ico is going to be a very good game. Methodical, quiet, and deep, while at other moments jarring, larger than life, and daring.
4. "The Stanley Parable" by Galactic Cafe. The easiest way I can describe this is if Terry Pratchett ever wrote a video game, this would be it. Insanely intelligent, witty, and tongue in cheek humor and very clever fourth wall breaks makes this game a joy to play and replay to discover all the various endings and changes your actions can cause.
5. "Silent Hill" by Team Silent. Most noticeably the first and second game. Emphasis on the second. I will never forgive Hollywood for what they did to this game series with the films. Silent Hill is known for it's atmospheric horror, psychological elements, and absolutely artful design of both environment and story. There have been entire video series devoted just to the lore, the execution, the work that went into making these games. No moment in any film has ever given me a larger feeling of dread then when Vincent said to Heather in Silent Hill 3, "They look like monsters to you?" I had to pause the game and go talk a freaking walk.
6. Face if you knew this one was coming. "Undertale" by Toby Fox. I have NEVER seen a game more successfully use the fourth wall than this game. I was absolutely floored during my first play through. The writing is on point and clever as well as quirky and fun, the characters are so fleshed out and lovable with all their flaws and goals, the environment is charming and the game mechanics are even an important part to the story.The overall moral choice the game asks of you is also insanely good. The fact the game has three different paths and all three are so wildly different from one another is just fantastic. A game that knows it's a game being played, and uses that against you in the narration. A game that knows when you restart or save scum! This is something I think would be near impossible for a film to ever pull off.
SOME HONORABLE MENTIONS!
Bioshock series: Good writing and imaginative environments. First game as a really nice reveal that still gets my goat to this day.
Night in the Woods: Eccentric in the best way possible and hiding a deeper, more disturbing plot the farther along you go.
Papers, Please: A thoughtful character study in a type of setting I don't often seen explored in games.
Everything: BOY HOW. Meaning of life? Existence? The difference between self and other? The meaning of shared identity? Look no further! It's all explored here.
The beauty of games is that it allows you to feel the emotional impact of your own decisions. I can tell you, I've never felt as conflicted about a choice as I did about wether or not to claim the throne in Star Wars: The Old Republic.
Can video games be high art?
I have four words for you:
Red Dead Redemption 2
Bio shock infinite.
Mass effect.
Skyrim.
The fallout series.
I think these are all high art.
Skyrim is not art, it's like the call of duty of RPGs, and fallout is dead
wiwysova fallout is still art. especially 3
I'm glad someone I watch and enjoy as much as you has such an open mind for the possibilities of this medium. I believe some of the evolution of games into art has been shown in even a single game series. The Elder Scrolls series started off much more simple but as they gained momentum, so did the depth they could dive in story telling. The sheer volume of what they contain, though some of these things contained therein are somewhat fourth-wall-breaking, has sparked countless hours of discussion, debate, speculation, and obsession that is seen when contemplating high art. That is to name a single series by a single studio, so I think you're definitely right in your opinion on the matter.
SOMA and Cuphead are my two prime examples. SOMA has a relentlessly deep and focused story that, given a full playthorugh, will leave you questioning your own existence many nights ahead. Cuphead meanwhile has a groundbreaking art style that took years to master and the music is just phenomenal. These are two games that deserve to be remembered.
Video games are not just high art, they're very very high art. Think about it. Humans took the raw materials of this planet and created video games with it. To me that's an extreme form of art.
Usually its people born before 1977 that say games arent art and hate gaming. They are slowly dying off like roger ebert.
If video games had been around in the renaissance, Michelangelo and da Vinci would’ve been creaming their respective britches at the prospect
Love Conquers All so by that logic a tire is high art
Video Games:
When you want to give yourself the illusion that you’re getting s*** done in life
Movies:
When you want to give yourself the illusion that your life is actually exciting.
I think the best example would be Journey. What other game can you have a literal moving tapestry of emotion telling a great story without a single line of exposition?
I would also recommend that you see a review of "Child of Light" An amazing game entirely hand painted by Amano.
Some other great comic book stories that are high art are Daredevil Born Again and any Frank Miller Daredevil story along with The Dark Knight Returns and Batman Year One along with Marvel Civil War