Review: Profitec Pro 500 PID Espresso Machine
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- Review of the new Profitec Pro 500 PID espresso machine. Marc from Whole Latte Love reviews Profitec's Pro 500 now with PID brew temperature control. See brew temperature test results using a Scace device. Find out why this heat-exchange boiler machine does not require a cooling flush prior to espresso extraction. Learn the advantages of PID temperature control versus pressurestat control.
Learn more about the Pro 500 PID including detailed specifications here: www.wholelatte... - Zábava
I had the best latte of my life this morning thus far courtesy of this machine and my new Eureka Mignon Specialita grinder.
Hi Brad, That's awesome! Pro 500 is a fine machine! Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Can’t wait for you guys to have this in stock, so I could buy my first espresso machine !
Such a lovely machine, Profitec is one of the best brands in espresso their machines are top notch and the 500 looks incredible
Hi BC, Thanks for the comment. Profitec and sister company ECM make excellent machines! ECM adds more details. For example the Profitec Pro 700 and ECM Synchronika are nearly identical internally. The Synchronika has more refined exterior details.
Marc
I have this machine now for a period of 3 months and bought it also based on the loving reviews on WLL. I use it with a CoffeeSensor (similar to Ericks thermometer) and would like to share the following with those interested of buying this machine:
1. The suggestion made by Whole Latte Love that this machine does not need any cooling flushes is simply not true and after making myself familiar with the technical side of HX machines, this is also simply not possible. In my view and experience there is definitely a build up of heat during time and during the day. So the temperature at the puck is a few degrees different depending on when the machine was last switched on, you made your last espresso, etc. I even noted that when you put the top of the machine full with coffee cups (blocking the vents), the heat is less able to escape the machine trough the vents impacting heat buildup. The pro 500 however does seem to do a much better job than other HX machines in this and the build up is a lot less, limited steam build up. This is probably because of the flow restrictor and has not much to do with the PID.
2. Also the comment made that the temperature at puck and the table in the instructions manual needs updating is simply not true. This is only true when you measure it 40 minutes from (cold) power up. From my own user experience I now know that it takes at least 1,5 hour for the group head the reach its full and stable/idle temperature (around 200 degrees F). In my case the machine came set at boiler temperature of 246 degrees F, which seems to be pretty much spot on when the machine is on for longer than 1,5 hours. WLL testing procedures in this respect are limited and do not take into account different (cold) startup times or include measurements of the group heat temp. I would suggest to use both in the future. For example to measure brew temp after 45 minutes and after 90 minutes. Setting the temp higher at 252, will result in much more heat build up during the day and a too high temperature at the puck.
3. Taking this into consideration the machine probably is outstanding for a HX machine, but for a newbie like me much more difficult to handle than a DB machine. This is less probably noticeable with few month old darker roast coffee, from the big brands, such as Illy or Lavaza. Especially if you use lighter roasted fresh coffees (one week old) temperature stability is key and a very important factor. Especially because home HX machines are a lot more prone to temperature difference, because there is no stable flow like in a coffee bar etc. So for home use this would be a big plus to DB machines. So when you consider buying an HX machine be prepared to put in a lot of time if you planning and drinking fresh lighter roasted coffee.
4. A PID sensor is a nice feature to stabilize boiler water temperature en its impact on brew temperature. However there are a lot of other factors influencing brew temperature, as discussed earlier. The convenience of this is more stable temperature delivered through the group, but again has nothing to do with brew group temperature itself or build up in the HX. The flow restrictor reduces this buildup.
5. A temperature sensor on the brew group is however a must to get to know your machine much faster. Would be curious to see what the view of WLL is on that. It could be a differentiating factor for a manufacturer like Profitec to include or provide a build in temperature sensor in the group head for example.
6. Too bad this machine does not come with a Rotary pump option like the Rocky machines. The pump is still pretty loud, especially since I paired it with a Eureka Atom 75, which is unbelievably silent.
All things taken into consideration I very much enjoy and love this machine (once you get to know it) and probably one of the best solutions for the money, but wanted to share my experience because WLL very much focuses on the technical / build quality of the machines and less on real life use scenarios in their testing. Very much appreciate al their efforts and info :)!!
Hej Gerard, thanks alot for review. I was researching alot on the points u just mentioned but so far could not find alot of reliable info. I am still thinking about getting the Profitec Pro 500 or instead a Prosumer DB. From your review it seems like one should get (Ericks) thermometer to measure the temperature at the puck when one goes for the Pro 500. Wow, 1,5 hrs to get stable temperatures seems also pretty long... I was almost about buying the 500, now I am a little worried. Do u think the Profitec Pro 500 can compete with high end DB's? I would have the time and pleasure to get the most out of the Pro 500. Thanks for taking the time, highly appreciated!
Hi Karsten Kamps, Thanks for your response. Are you Dutch too? I don’t have any experience with a DB machine. But from an engineering point of view, also with a DB machine you will have certain temperature variability I guess, but a lot less compared to HX because the brew boiler temperature is a lot lower in general than a steam boiler, so less build up of heat over time. Brew head temp however also changes with room temperature, time of day, if you make a few cups short after each other, etc. So yes in my view a temperature readout and sensor on the brew head is very important to better predict your shots, both on HX and DB machine. You just don’t have that standard flow at home. Especially when you take your coffee at different (not set) times of the day. A warm-up time of 45 minutes is sufficient, but you will need to set the PID at a few degrees higher than factory standard as suggested by WLL, to result in high enough temperature at puck. I prefer longer warm up, because the too high temperature setting suggested by WLL resulted in good espresso after 45 min, but too high extraction temperatures/burned coffee later on the day. I could first not understand this, thought it was my technique etc, but after installing the Sensor I came too conclusion that temperatures were just too hot during the day. Hope this all makes sense, because for me it was a Eureka moment and this would not have happened should i have just stick with the factory preset of 246 to start with. By the way this setting still means that there is a temperature build up of about 2 degrees after a few hours which you need to remove with a few second flush. I would not worry so much about warmup time, this should be similar amongst al these machines machines, this just takes time. Especially the heat up of the full group itself just takes time. I use a timer (TP link HS100), which puts the machine on at least 1,5 hour before I wake up and then leaves it on the rest of the day. My take is that the pro 500 is probably the best HX machine money can buy and can produce a similar and even better tasting espresso than a DB. This comes however with a little bit more variability which you can learn to master if you have the time and patience. Furthermore a DB also clearly has its disadvantages with less fresh water (because its sitting in the boiler for longer periods) and narrower temperature profile. During a shot the pro 500 decreases about 1,5 degree, with DB this reversed change in temp is much less, which also results in a flatter taste profile. You would daily need to have both machines side by side and drink the same coffee from both machines and use it for a few weeks or months to start tasting the difference. If you get the hang of it the HX is a lot more control over the process I guess, you can even directly play with temperature if you prefer sour vs more bitter shot just by flushing shorter or longer (combined with Sensor readout) and this is the same as comparing an automatic vs stick shift in a car. With a DB it takes time for a change in temp to take effect. For me also the size of the machine and the cost played a role. These machine already are present on your counter top, but DB machines are even bigger and in NL the synchronika is also almost twice the price of the pro 500. So as a first machine i am very happy with this one and my shots are now each time close to perfect, and I believe the Sensor is key to that. You can better invest this money in a better grinder. Reasons for me to go for DB would be, more power (both in steaming and brewing), rotary pump, fixed plumbing, preinfusion, but not so much taste in cup.
Thanks alot for taking the time to give such a long and well-balanced answer, Gerard. I am German (from Hamburg), so we when you are Dutch: hi neighbour!
I read through the home-barrista forum and I have now a much better understanding of the HX vs. DB (never ending) debate. With your detailed information on the Pro 500, I am know able to determine whether this machine fits my needs. After being a little irritated about the workings of a HX machine, I like them more and more since their simplicity comes with a practical benefit, that is, there are less parts that may break resulting in less costs in the long run. However, this comes with a complexity increase - as you say - when these machines are used which can be also utilized when one is skillfull enough to drive the manual HX machines (to stay with the metaphor;). For me as someone who made his coffee via French Press so far, there is still the question of whether I can master this machine. I have no problem at all of learning on the machine for two months until I can pull consistent shots. But I want to be able to pull consistent shots at some point, meaning, I don't want to guess anymore. Are you now able to pull good and consistent shots without try and error? What is also important for me is to be able to pull up to 4 consistent shots in a row. Is this a problem on a HX e.g. when one considers the recovery time in between shots? Thanks for your help!
Hi Karsten, always happy to help a neighbor ;)! Hamburg is great city, visited it for work few years ago.
Consistent shots are in my view dependent on the following:
1. First and foremost: Coffee, Coffee, Coffee. As long as you use ‘old’ beans from large manufacturers like Illy or Lavazza etc. it will be much easier to get consistent shots. These beans are generally darker roasted (easier to grind) and received a factory treatment against aging. So essentially they have a much more stable taste for a longer period of time. However this comes at a huge expense: Taste! Once you have tasted fresh roasted beans, you will discover a whole new world an there is no way back. It is like tasting coffee for the first time and how it is supposed to, because you are used to drinking ‘old’ coffee all the time. This also means that you have to develop a new taste, the acidity and sour taste in fresh beans is something you need to get familiar with in the beginning, this takes time, because most people are used to that bitter and strong coffee taste. Fresh coffee is much more difficult to manage in terms of consistency, that is why a lot of home baristas learn to roast their own coffee at home, this is much cheaper and enables you to make fresh coffee al the time. I still order new beans each week, so I have fresh coffee. The time window is extremely small for fresh coffee (about a week), therefore I recommend investing in good vacuum canisters to store the coffee once you opened the bag. I use 32 oz Airscape canisters, ordered on Amazon (which hold about 250 grams of coffee). These canisters are designed to push out the air and therefore Oxygen when you close them. Oxygen and light are the biggest contributors of aging of coffee. Their are also some systems that include valves so the co2 is a able to escape the canisters. This however is a gimmick and totally unnecessary when you let them degas the first week in the bag they came in (those bags always have a one way valve). My routine is that I order 2 fresh bags of coffee at a local roaster each week (both 250 grams) and I leave them in the bag for 1 week (from roast date) to degas, don’t open the bag!!. During this first week its a better to not drink the coffee, because the beans will taste sour due to the degassing process. After the first week you can open the bags and put them in the canisters and in your grinder. I use a single dose system so only store them in the canisters, see below. The coffee will than taste excellent the first few days, very good the few days after that and after the second week (from roast date) quickly will start to deteriorate in taste. So invest in coffee first, and equipment second.
2. Grinder. You have probably already read that grinder is important. Being a newbie a started out with a profitec grinder which matches my machine well, a M54 manual grinder. This grinder however has limited options and is good with darker older coffee beans, but not so good with fresh lighter roasted beans, which result in sticky and clumpy ground coffee. Furthermore I really much wanted to explore single dosing, because I like to have option and possibility to change coffee. With hind side I should never have gone for the profitec to begin with and choose a well known commercial ‘grinder’ brand instead, however I first wanted to try out the home barista stuff, before buying an expensive grinder too. I switched to a Eureka Atom Speciality 75 a month ago. It is basically a commercial grinder in home package. I very much like the design too. But what a world of difference!!. If you talk about consistency, this plays a huge factor. Clumps and stickier ground coffee will result in much more channeling etc. The ground coffee from the Atom is unbelievably fluffy, consistent and its very fast. This makes tamping childs play and no need for any fancy accessories to distribute coffee in the portafilter. Also the retention is only 2 grams, so I use it successfull as single dose grinder (clive coffee recently made a video on that). Make sure to grind like 5 grams of coffee each morning to purge any old coffee from the day before. So invest your money in a grinder before making a choice between HX or DB. Second hand commercial grinder is cheapest, but only if aesthetics are not important.
3. Temperature control. One of the biggest factors in consistency after coffee and the grinder is temperature control on your machine. As discussed earlier, this is a much debated difference between DB and HX machines, but very too much overrated in terms of actual contribution to overall consistency. DB machines are more stable on this respect, no doubt. However I noticed that the Pro 500 is very consistent in delivering water at a set temperature once you respect the heat up time of 1 to 1,5 hour instead of 45 minutes. So performance comes close to a DB. What however is very key in this is not the temperature of the brew water itself, but very much the temperature control of the brew group/head and portafilter. You will see this once you invest in a temperature sensor on the group head. It’s like having a speedometer in your car. For example i purge and clean my portafilter with warm water in the sink after each use, which cooles the head a few degrees. So you can not do this and should clean it with a brush instead when you want to make more coffees after each other. But still than you have to respect the recovery time of the machine. WLL uses 3 minute intervals in their testing, but I don’t think they take off the scace device during testing. In real life you take of and clean the portafilter and by doing so it looses heat and also the group itself is than more exposed, so recovery time of 5 minutes is much more realistic when you clean with brush or towel and closer to probably 7- 10 minutes when you purge the portafilter clean with water. These are just my own best guesses based on my user experience. Not respecting the recovery time will result in lower temp and therefore more acid tasting cup. Not respecting few seconds cooling flush on the pro 500 (after longer period of not using) will result in too high temps and burned/bitter tasting coffee. You can always read the brew head temp from the Sensor. Once the water starts flowing this temp will change to water temp flowing by, so this tells you how long to flush etc.. With a DB machine the capacity is usually bigger, but still you will need to preserve heat in your group and portafilter very carefully when making more cupps after each other. The boilers and machines in coffee bars are much bigger, hence temperature stability is much better than at home. Also these machines have more than one group, allowing for a steady flow. This limitation in flow and stability is just inherent to a home machine, but favors a DB slightly over a HX because of large capacity. Second the DB usually have larger steam boiler and 2 bar steam pressure compared to c. 1 bar on HX machine. This makes it much easier to froth larger amounts of milk, for two lattes for example. So if your willing to spend the money, a DB will give you more ease in workflow, but temperature wise it will not make a huge difference. My shots are temperature consistent each time, when respecting recovery time, with max 1 degree difference. Get a sensor!!
Hej @@gerard3797, thanks again for your very quick and informational answer. I am now also a proud owner of a ProfitecPro500 and a CeadoE5P grinder and I am very happy with the set up. Your information convinced me that when it comes to prosumer machines like from Profitec good and consistent shots are not so much an issue of DB vs. HX but it's about the barrista. It was also very helpful to know that you updated the M54 grinder as they recommended it to me in the shop, I finally went for the Ceado as it is a better grinder than the M54 but in my budget:). I already pulled some nice shots and on a second attempt I produced an amazing FlatWhite (perfect microfoam mixed up with good espresso from the machine), since then I haven't reached that level again. But I am getting better on a daily basis and I am looking forward to produce consistently great FlatWhites in the future. Thanks as well for letting me know how you deal with fresh coffee beans. I already got some fresh fruity coffee from Nicaragua, that was a totally new tasting experience for me. I will let you know how my coffee experience is in the next weeks. Best from Hamburg to the Netherlands (from which city are you?:)
Karsten
Nice review! I really wish they had put the PID display above the tray so it could serve as a shot timer like on the pro 300 and 700.
Hi CK, Thanks for the comment. I like the shot timer on the other models as well. Seems some prefer a cleaner look with no digital display on the face of machines.
Hi Marc. Finally got my Pro500 PID. Love the machine. However, I think the PID settings can vary quite a bit, either from manufacture lots or due to ambient conditions. Mine came with PID set to 248. I don't have a scace ($600) or E61 therm. which is $200 here in Canada, so I used the small 'foam cup & fast thermometer' method to measure brew water. Cut foam cup to cover brew screen tightly, put thermometer through side and dispense about 2oz water. My measurements gave only 175F with PID at 248 and I thought.. wow.. something's wrong. When I set PID to 252 (as you did) I get 190. So although the foam cup is not as accurate as scace, I think it should give me the initial brew water temp within a degree or 2, as this thermometer is +/- 1/2 deg with a fast 3 second read. Won't give me the shot 'profile' temperature over time, but that is not important to me yet. I think I'll need to go up to 254 to get about 200F. But for me, the table in the Profitec manual seems way off. HX machines really could benefit from some easier mechanism for brew water temp determination. From my brief week with the machine, there really appears to be no cooling flush required and shots seem to taste very similar shot to shot. I'm looking forward to learning to change parameters based on taste, but have much education to do with the taste buds :).. Steam performance is great and a huge step up from my 'starter' machine. One last question. This machine is setup with 10bar pressure, max. I can get an extraction that is roughly 1:2 in 25 seconds and looks good in the bottomless portafilter, but the pressure is pretty well at 10bar. Does one adjust grind/dose so that extraction requires only 9 bar or will it usually always go to the max pressure that is set? Thanks again for all the videos on this machine. I'm very happy with it. The Sette 270 seems to work super with it on the 4-5 sets of beans I've used (all med or dark roast).
Hi Dave, Congrats on the machine! Brew water temps at the group are incredibly difficult to measure! Even with a Scace device one must decide when to record the temp. My standard is to record the temp after ~1.5oz/45ml of water has run through the Scace. The Scace uses a thermocouple temp probe. They are about as fast and accurate as you get for this type of temp measurement. But there's still some lag and potential for error in the reading unless recently calibrated. Also first water out of the group is never going to be at set temp and that's okay! I gave up trying to measure brew water temps with "instant read" thermometers long ago - so much variation in brands and I'd take manufacturer stated specs for speed and accuracy with a grain or three of salt! They are faster than bi-metal analog thermometers but I have observed temps continue to rise for five seconds and more when measuring milk froth temps after shutting steam off. The foam cup can give you an idea I suppose but it really doesn't simulate actual brewing conditions of pressure and pre-heated portafilter etc.
As to PID set and resulting brew temps. In my testing I found Profitec's charts were off as well. Ambient conditions play a role but I think PID at 252F is a good place to start. From there I would let taste be your guide. It depends on coffee type and other variables but if you detect bitterness try a slightly lower temp. If sour, a slightly higher temp. Also lower temp for darker roast and higher as you go lighter in roast. Keep in mind it can take 10-15 minutes for temps to stabilize after changing the PID set - there's a lot of thermal mass in the boiler and E61! In the end I would not get too wrapped up in temps. What that PID gets you is day to day consistency.
As to brew pressure... If there is enough restriction from the grind the machine will go to pressure set by the OPV. If you are getting good extraction with good timing and a brew ratio you like I would not be overly concerned unless brew pressure is outside of an 8-10bar range.
Sette 270 is a very nice grinder. I love the grind quality! Fluffy, clump free, well distributed grinds IMO make channeling less likely. I really notice it when doing bottomless shots. As the the espresso first pushes thru the filter basket it grows evenly with complete coverage and I hardly ever get spurts!
Enjoy your machine and the quest for incredible espresso! Pro 500 and Sette 270 are a winning combo.
Cheers,
Marc
Thanks Mark! appreciate your attention. @@Wholelattelovepage
Great review Marc! This is the one I have been waiting to hear more about. Time to call WLL!!
Hi YANJ, Thanks for the comment! It's an impressive machine. Nice fish by the way! Guessing you're in NJ? I'll be in Cape May 2 weeks from today for my daughter's graduation from Coast Guard boot camp.
Hi Marc, I just got the Profitec 500 and am enjoying it. It's a nice upgrade from my old Bes900xl. One thing I have noticed is that if I draw a mug of hot water from the machine, and water from the reservoir then enters the boiler, the pid doesn't change temp or reflect the fact that the water must no longer be at full temp. If I then draw steam, the steam basically completely runs out within a few seconds and pressure drops to 0, then the pid finally also drops and starts heating the boile to bring it up to temp. I am guessing that the pid measures steam temp and the introduction of cold water to the boiler doesn't initially change the steam temp and hence the pid doesn't change or start heating the boiler. When you then tap the steam, the water is then not hot enough to maintain the steam pressure, so the machine runs out of steam. The machine then realises this and heats the water. It's a bit annoying. Is this normal behavior??
It almost sounds like your PID is not working. You seem to be describing how a pressurestat works.
Hi Marc,
I've joined your channel and liked every video I've seen so far. You have a great presentation and obvious considerable knowledge; having your support and sales teams to add value is a bonus.
I have been enjoying espresso and cappuccino for decades - long before they came into vogue in North America; I'm an Italian-decent Canadian. I am looking at finally buying a real machine and grinder and now I'm learning that I don't yet know, what I don't know. But I'm getting there.
I've read numerous comments after each of the videos and I see so much equipment and expertise already being used: Scace gauges, scales and timers being utilized to evaluate the shots. Got it and like it. I wonder if somewhere in the specs you could add an SPL rating for the pump? I've noted that some are considerably quieter - by design and I wonder what the additional cost saves in SPL?
Finally, while I note that your calming and professional 'radio voice' makes it easy to watch your videos - I sure wish the editors would add in the metric equivalents of your imperial (sorry US) figures in all things. I know you're American but I would imagine that your videos, being of such a high calibre, are being viewed world-wide and now the USA, (and Myanmar and Liberia) are the ONLY countries left using that standard. I'm only one border away in Canada but we switched to the Metric system (the one that makes sense - Science-Based!), so long ago (1970's) that even old-guys like me have trouble converting back to the old Fahrenheit and inch scales. (I think you're on the wrong side of this issue - despite your main viewer profile).
In any event, what limited research into the pricing levels I have done, likely puts me in the budget of: A Kinu M47 grinder and a Rancilio Silvia Pro X. But I still have a long way to go before I have narrowed it down toi what I will buy, and from whom.
I enjoy your channel, I enjoy your videos from your channel. Sure wish your 'spoke Canadian'.
Best,
Zed
Hey Zed, Thanks for the comment - kindness coming out out Canada is not surprising. You must have run into some of our older videos. For many years now we've almost always included metric measurements. I was in grade school in the '70s when US tried to go metric. As a sciency guy I was all about it (also made measurement math much easier). Unfortunately I ended up in the minority and metric just didn't catch on here. In all honesty I have to mention I prefer Fahrenheit for temperature with better than 2x the resolution unless one goes to decimals and espresso machines do not. Even with that I include temps in both C and F in videos for the last few years. As for speaking Canadian I'm a huge fan of the rock band Rush, SCTV was my go to comedy as a kid, I've been to more pro hockey games (800+) than any other sport. My favorite vacation spot is the wild west coast of Vancouver Island and back east, I've sailed across Lake Ontario to Toronto and Kingston numerous times.
Thanks for mentioning SPL of machines. We have done some casual dB measurements with grinders but not with machines. If looking for a quiet machine rotary pump is the way to go. You pay a bit more for rotary but they have a quieter and more pleasant tone than machines with vibration pumps.
Be sure and check out Whole Latte Love's Canadian site here for your coffee needs: wholelattelove.ca/
Cheers,
Marc
I'm curious how the Scace results would compare to the non-PID Pro 500 or similar HX machine. Excellent video Marc, you guys have got machine reviews down to an art.
Hi Chris, Thank you for the comment! I would like to compare Scace temps of non-PID HX machines. Most all I'm familiar with flash boil the first brew water at the group so with no flush I guessing they'll be over 205F. So question is when to measure. I think it would be interesting to do some tests with a series of timed flushes and see if it's possible to get accurate and repeatable temperatures. Do 5x tests with a 4 second flush and see what the temp and variation is. Then repeat with other flush times. What do you think?
Hey, yes similar to brew temperature test in video at 4:10
Great review! This machine really looks like the Rocket Mozzafiato/Gioto.
Hi CB, Thank you for the comment. Very similar to the Rocket M&G's Type V! Less R's and more P's. All produce very consistent brew temps. I personally prefer the sprung valves on the Pro 500 to those on the Rockets. Pro 500 PID is currently about $150-200 less than the Rocket Type V's.
Hi Marc,
I realize this is a relatively old video but note that early in this video the PID display showed a setting of 252. In some places I've read that a setting of 248 results in a brew temperature of about 200 but in other places I've read that a higher setting should be used to obtain a brew temperature of 200. I realize that the relationship between boiler temperature and brew temperature will vary somewhat from one machine to the next but would like to know, based on your experience with this machine, if I should be setting a boiler temperature higher than 248 if I want a brew temperature of at least 200.
Thanks for providing these very helpful video for those of use new to prosumer espresso machines.
Hi Paul, Thanks for the question. ECM suggests using 248F setting for 200F brew temp. As you mention there will be some difference machine to machine based on variables like ambient temperature and how long the machine has been on and idle. If I were running the machine at cooler ambient temp like 70F or below I'd take the temp up a degree or two. Do experiment and see how it changes the flavor of your shots. When you do change temps give the machine some time to stabilize as temperature changes must work throught the group. The other thing you can do is run the machine at a higher temp, pull a shot and taste. Then do a shot with a cooling flush of 5 seconds before pulling a shot which will give you a lower brew temp. Hope that helps.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Marc. You, and WLL, rock.
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi again Marc. I have another question. Is the brew group gasket in the Profitek Pro 500 PID made of silicone? If not, would you recommend replacing the stock gasket with a silicone gasket? I ask based on a post I read suggesting that a rubber gasket will fail prematurely if the portafilter is left in place which has been my practice. Thanks in advance.
@@phcalama Hi Paul, The Pro 500's stock gasket is not made of silicone. I wouldn't say the stock gasket fails prematurely but it will not last as long as a silicone gasket. Silicone gaskets are more flexible so clock-in does not require as much force for a good seal. Here's a link to the silicone gasket for E61 groups: www.wholelattelove.com/products/caffewerks-silicone-group-gasket-73-x-57-x-8mm For E61 groups with a fair amount of wear from use there's this silicone gasket with an extra 0.5 mm in height: www.wholelattelove.com/products/caffewerks-silicone-group-gasket-73-x-57-x-8-5mm
Marc
Hi Marc, thanks for another great review.
I am on the fence between Profitec Pro 500 and 600. I'm certain both are great machines, but I don't understand the justification of $400 extra for the Pro 600. From what I can tell, the differences are a dual-boiler, a front PID display, and easy brew pressure adjustment. Am I missing anything? Is Pro 600 better built? Is it more reliable? I'd think that Pro 600 being higher up on the hierarchy would mean it would be a better machine. But, that doesn't seem clear cut here.
Hey JK, You are welcome for the video! So the 500 uses a heat exchange boiler and the 600 is a dual boiler. On the 600 you'll have independent control of the temperature in both boilers. In the 500 you set one temperature usually setting it to get the brew temperature you want. With that, your steam pressure depends on that one temperature setting. If you want more steam pressure you'd turn up the temperature with the side effect being your brew temp will increase as well. With dual boilers the temperature in the steam boiler has no effect on brew temps. Also the 600 is capable of much higher steam pressure than the 500. Set the 600's steam boiler temp 270F and you'll have ~2 bar of pressure in the boiler. That's a lot more than available on the 500. ^00 also has some additionl function available througgh the PID controller like the automatic shot timer, cleaning/backflush reminder and ECO mode which turns off the boiler after a user set periord of no use. Build quality between the machines is essentially the same. Hope that helps!
Marc
Once again thanks for a very detailed review. After watching all WLL episodes and reviews related to Pro 500, I decided to pull the trigger and get this very machine. Amazing upgrade to my entry level machine! It's a great companion to covid quarantine. Are there must have upgrades that you would recommend to the stock components? Such as your bottomless filter? Best wishes from Canada.
Hi AB, You are welcome and thanks for the comment and question. It will be an amazing upgrade and wonderful companion well beyond Covid times!
Upgrades I'd suggest....
Silicone group gasket: www.wholelattelove.com/products/caffewerks-silicone-group-gasket-73-x-57-x-8-5mm
IMS Nanotech shower screen: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ims-nanotech-e61-shower-screen
Baristapro precision filter basket - doubles available in 15, 18 20, 22g sizes. Pair the 22g with bottomless for naked triples!: www.wholelattelove.com/products/baristapro-22g-nanotech-precision-portafilter-basket
Quality leveler and/or tamper. The Jack Leveler can do it all: www.wholelattelove.com/products/asso-coffee-the-jack-leveler-color-waves
Bottomless PF: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-bottomless-portafilter
Some Cafiza to keep things clean: www.wholelattelove.com/products/urnex-cafiza-espresso-machine-cleaner
Hope that helps!
Marc
Just found my Christmas gift idea.
Please give us a demo of how you would make a Latte now on this machine.
Hi Jay, Thanks for the request. Will see what we can squeeze in. In the meantime, making a latte on the Pro 500 is fairly straightforward. It's a heat-exchange boiler machine so you can brew and steam at the same time. Definitely want to do that so your espresso and milk are fresh when combined!
Hi Mark would you recommend the pro 600 over the 500, I know the steam pressure is the biggest difference but apart from that the 500 is equally capable
Hey NQ, thanks for the question. I'm sure you understand the Pro 500 uses a heat exchange boiler and the 600 is a dual boiler. On the 600 you can set temps for each boiler and you'll set the actual brew temp you want. Can also turn off the steam boiler if desired. On the Pro 500 you'll set the actual temperature in the boiler based on na chart which gives you brew temps based on the actual boiler temp. Pro 500 is very good at consistency with brew temps but as an HX you may need to do a cooling flush prior to an extraction depending on when the last extraction was. Also as far as I know Whole Latte Love is the only vendor offering the latest version of the Pro 500 with visible PID/shot timer as seen in this more recent Pro 500 video: czcams.com/video/vuci2UFdt4w/video.html
Hope that helps!
Marc
looks great and the pours look so yummy!
Hi RS, Thanks for the comment! The pours were delicious.
I find it weird that only in coffee do companies advertise PID as the method for controlling temperature. The even crazier thing is that people actually use that to describe it. The fact of the matter is that PID controllers are used literally everywhere. No one gets in an elevator and says “hey man - this elevator has PID controlled levelling”.
Hi Dr. F&C, Thanks for the comment. Yes, PID is used in many applications. I guess it's a big deal in espresso machines as they made a huge improvement in temp stabilty vs. simple thermostats and pressure stats. Maybe kinda like auto manufacturers making noise about anti-lock braking 20 years ago.
Marc
Hi Mark... great info.. But I worry about steam power in lower brew temps.. According to the manual, the PID is set for 244 if you want 195 brew temp. From steam charts this seems to be about .87 Bar.. This seems low to get good steam performance.. Have you tried setting the brew temp for about 195 and then see what the steam power is? It’s not that I’d typically extract at 195, but if I did have a dark roast and wanted to drop the PID to what the manual recommends (244) I wouldn’t want the steam power to really drop out. Only hands-on experience could tell what happens. I’m looking to purchase either this machine or a Pro 300. I’m hoping this has more steam power across a total extraction range of 195 to 205.
Hi Dave, Thanks for the comment and questions. Profitec's chart needs an
update. I believe it was created prior to some modifications were made
to the E61 thermosiphon flow restrictor after our initial evaluation of
the machine in late September early October of 2017. In my testing (as
seen in this video) with a Scace mounted temp sensor PID was set at 252
to produce a brew temp averaging ~199F. I have not tried to produce
brew temps of 195 but my guess is one would set PID to about 248 to get
195.
But here's the thing... even at a boiler pressure of .72 Bar the machine has plenty of steaming power! Here's a video showing the boiler pressure gauge of the Pro 500 while producing steam over a one minute period: czcams.com/video/JzH4ECZaC14/video.html A couple of things to note in the video: Boiler pressure drops rapidly when the steam is first turned on. This is true of any machine in this class. Pressure starts at a hair over 1Bar and within 4 seconds it's down to ~.72. After dropping, the boiler pressure rises while steaming to ~.77 Bar. Maintaining or increasing pressure while steaming does not happen on all machines.
If steam power is your main concern I'd go with the Pro 500 over the 300. The 500's boiler is more than 2x the size of the 300 at 67oz vs. 25oz and has a 1400 watt element vs. 800 watts in the 300.
Hope that helps. Let me know if you have more questions.
Marc
I really appreciate the reply. Great info.. you do a great service to share your experience. I can't find this type of info on any forum. So my problem is that I'm in Canada (or I'd buy from you). If I bought a new Pro 500 in Canada is there a chance I'd get an old pre-modified unit? That chart came directly from the manual that I just downloaded from Profitec's site. One last question. I want to keep this unit for 5-10 years. How susceptible to scale would the flow restrictor be? Are you seeing any issues in this area. I will use really good water (RO plus 3rd wave water espresso crystals) but am hoping this is not a weak spot where a tiny bit of scale could throw the system out of whack. I think WLL had modified non-PID PRO 500s for some time with a restrictor. Did you notice any more maintenance with this mod? Thanks again for taking the time to reply. I love the looks of the 500. Ultimately I may have to get some gauge to see where my brew temp is exactly.. but I would only need to do that once to have some confidence everything is working fine. Dave
Hi Dave, Happy to help. I have no way of being certain what you might get in Canada. But, I think any modifications done in development for machines sold in US would be the same for those in Canada. If it's a Pro 500 PID chances are it's identical across North America. I don't think the flow restrictor would be any more susceptible to scale than other parts of the machine. We have not had issues with flow restrictors scaling on older 500s. Many machine manufacturers use flow restrictors in their thermosiphon setups. Water and potential scaling has as many variables as making an espresso! In most cases it's best to do prophylactic descaling unless you are 100% certain your water will not cause scale. The only way I'm aware of to get that yet maintain a mineral level for good flavor/extraction is with ion-exchange filtration which replaces a good portion of calcium with magnesium. Calcium causes scale when it gets to a certain level. Keeping calcium level lower by exchanging for magnesium makes water that will not scale. Bonus usage tip: Regardless of water used it's important to regularly run some water out of the hot water wand. If you only do steaming, overtime minerals will concentrate in the boiler and may cause scale. This does not affect the brewing section as the HX gets fresh water from the reservoir when brewing.
I am torn between this machine and the Rocket Mozzafiatto. Both have excellent reviews here on this channel and elsewhere. Can anybody make an argument for either one of the machines over the other? Any differences in build quality and performance anybody would know of? Thanks a lot !
Since nobody did reply: i got the rocket. Very happy but sure the Profitec is similarly good. Just did like the looks of the rocket 5% more ❤️
@@iamphil1598 how's the rocket so far? You got the V type?
@@Abaaaddy Yes, I got the Rocket Mozzafiato Cronometro V in April this year. I am very satisfied with the machine so far. No complaints. Having a PID did help me a lot with some medium roasts which had been a bit sourer initially. Changing the temperature did help a lot here. So very happy. Build quality is outstanding in my opinion. But keep in mind I lack comparison to other machines. Any questions just let me know here.
@@iamphil1598 how long does it take to be ready to brew? How's the consistency? What's the optimal set temperature based your experience with the machine? 92-94 C ? Did you ever need to cool flush?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm about to buy it 😅
@@Abaaaddy All fine I am happy to talk about my personal experience: I am using a smart power socket to automatically start the machine in the morning. I give the machine 30 mins to heat up and for my taste this is sufficient. I usually brew dark roasts needing a bit less temperature. I currently have the PID at 119 degrees Celsius giving me 92,7 Celsius at the brew head. This is based on the conversion table which is part of the manual. That's 246F and 198,9F respectively. Temperature consistency is good. I have no complaints here as I am able to pull consistent shoots. I don't do any cooling flushes and I am happy with the quality of the shoots.
Any plans to put a (PID display) shot timer up front, like the Pro 600/700?
Why not 1600 watts?
Reduced warmup time in lieu of a power on time control? Why don't you get thermostat control until only the highest end machines? (Exception, breville dual boiler)
Hi David, Thanks for the questions. The 1400 watt elements are very common. Going to 1600 puts things a little to close to 15amp draw with 15amp circuits very common in homes. 20 amp appliances may require something other than Edison plugs. You can get PID temp control in less expensive machines like the single boiler ECM Classika: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-classika-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control. In my book the Breville DB is an appliance quality build and not true made in Italy/Europe machine. The BDB has lots of plastic and proprietary components, low user serviceability and assembly line production. A far different product than the true machines with little or no plastic and high user serviceability.
Marc
How big difference does PID make in an espresso? I do make milk based beverages as well, so I am thinking between having a heat exchanger machine vs a single boiler with PID in the same price range.
Hi p, Thanks for the question. PID makes a difference in temperature stability and in how one uses a machine. Without PID on an HX machine you will generally need to do a cooling flush prior to extracting an espresso as the brew water is overheated. It's an extra step. By adjusting length of flush by a few seconds you can easily get a warmer or cooler brew temp. But, it's a bit of a guess. With PID, set the temp and that's what you get. If you do a lot of milk drinks you may get frustrated with waiting for a single boiler to get up to steam temp. Then after steaming you need to cool down the boiler before making an espresso. Hope that helps!
Marc
Looking to replace my Silvia that I purchased from WLL 11 years ago. One issue I am having is all of the Prosumer machines seem to have the steam wand on the left and the hot water on the right. I really don't ever use the hot water wand at all. My counter is such that the machine sits where the right side is at the edge of the counter. This makes it easy to steam with Silvia as the steam wand is on the right side. Is there any way to have the manufacturer or WLL reverse the sides of the hot water and steam wands so the steam wand would be on the right side? Thanks!
Hi Michael, Reversing the steam and hot water is doable. If interested let us know. Wands are easy to switch sides. Inside the machine we'd need to do some re-plumbing of the copper lines but there's tons of room to do that.
Hi Mark! Does brew temperature drop if you steam at the same time or does it stay consistent in that case also?
Hi T, I have not observed brew temperature drops when steaming. There's enough thermal mass in the system with the E61 etc to prevent a drop during normal brewing and steaming.
Cheers mate!
Dear Marc and Whole Latte Love, thanks for the very informative videos! It seems like the PRO 500 needs much longer to warm up comparatively to the PRO 300? Is there any other advantage of the PRO 300 over the PRO 500 PID (except for space and price)? Thanks for your help!
So what is the typical warm up time on cold start ???
Hi Marc,
Maybe a bit off topic but I’m looking to buy the 500 after seeing all your reviews. Problem is I really love the look of the wooden control knobs and portafilter handle on the Izzo Vivi. Do you think the wooden kit from Izzo would fit the Profitec 500? Thanks!
Hi C Strat, All topics are fair game! They will not fit :(. If you love the wood trim look you might have a look at the Elba 3: www.wholelattelove.com/969-coffee-elba-3-espresso-machine
It's currently $500 less than the Pro 500. The Elba 3 is an E61 group, HX machine but not PID. Also does not have hot water dispensing.
Marc
Hi Mark - I really like the look of this machine. I'm unsure how to decide between a V and R pump machine - how much of a difference does this difference mean in the cup? And as someone who wouldn't be using it more than 3 times a day, is not being able to plumb in a huge deal? Thanks!
Hi Keagan, Thanks for the question. Pro 500 PID is my favorite HX machine. Judging in cup differences between R and V machines is incredibly subjective. We've done side by side blind taste comparisons with our staff and there's no clear winner. Very difficult to control variables between 2 machines to remove the effects of everything but the pump type. What you do get with a rotary pump: quieter operation, high reliability and usually the option to plumb. Is not plumbing a big deal? Probably not at that level of use but have to say it's awfully nice to never have to think about filling a reservoir. Also easy to connect inline water filtration to eliminate scale build up in machine.
Marc
Thanks for the review! I'm on the process of buying this machine. However, I'm still doing research on which grinder to choose. The sette 270 seems to be a nice grinder to go with the PP500. Could someone teel me if it would be a good choice and other alternatives worth considering. Much appreciated
Hi DH, You are welcome and thanks for the question. The Sette 270 is a nice grinder. Be aware it's intended for home use. It's not a prosumer level grinder. It's also a hair louder than most due to it's more open design. If looking for something with a more robust build you might consider the Ceado E5P or E6P: www.wholelattelove.com/ceado-e5p-electronic-coffee-grinder
In term of grind quality, is it similar with the Ceado? The Ceado seems a bit to big for my few shots a day.
@@Dom6450 what did you end up going with? I went with eureka mignon specialita 16 and it is very quiet and not too large on the countertop!
Hi Marc, great video, I think I found my new machine :) Question though, how much does the PID contribute to not needing a cooling flush? From the video and some of your explanations in the comments it seems that the PID does a very good job at keeping the boiler at a steady temperature, but it is the engineering of the thermo-siphon that amounts to not needing a cooling flush. Would this kind of thermo-siphon engineering also be possible in a non-PID HX machine?
Hi Nicolass, Thanks for the comment and great questions! It's a combination of the very accurate PID temp control and engineering of the thermo-siphon which produce excellent brew temp accuracy. In non-PID HX machines a pressurestat controls boiler temps. Pstats can have temp swings of 10F or more. While good thermo-siphon design helps, I have yet to use a non PID HX machine that does not require a cooling flush if the machine is sitting idle and at the top of its temp range.
Very interesting, thanks for the great insight!
I'm afraid this is not answering the question very clearly. It is not clear at this point how a PID can help eliminating the need of a cooling flush. Why does the brew water not overheat? Does it circulate and cool down at the group? If that is the trick, how can this avoid heating up the group too much especially on a hot day and with high boiler temp setting?
hi Mark,
I just had received my machine, I noticed that the temperature in the pid is 120 but the gauge is reading about 0.7 bar, I raised it to 122 and the reading in the gauge raised a little up about 0.9 or less, and I believe that in that case should at least be over 1 or 1.2 bar, did I make something wrong or it is normal?!
Good afternoon Please make a video of how to properly configure the machine's PID system for a particular coffee and what these settings depend on. Thank you.
Hi Thanks for the question. Some general advice for brewing temperatures. You want to be in a 195-205F range. For medium/dark roast 200F. Trend hotter for lighter roasts and cooler for darker roasts. In our tests of Pro 500 PID, a setting of 252F produced consistent brew temp of 199F. So I'd set the PID at 252 for medium roast. I'd set the PID 2-3 degrees hotter for a light roast coffee and 2-3 cooler for dark roast.
Within the Profitec Pro 500 manual of 2018 there is a chart of which PID settings result in which brew temperatures. The graph on 4:13 states, that the PID temp was set to 252F which on my manual would result in a brew temp of about 203F while your graph states a target temp of 199F. How comes?
I'm curious how they manage to do this without being forced to do a cooling flush? The water in the heat exchanger will be heated up to above boiling temperature since the rest of the boiler will be heated to steaming temperature, that hasn't changed just with the introduction of a PID, no?`
On a separate note; Will you also review the ECM Mechanika V Slim? Any estimated date on that? :)
Hi Tanax13, Thanks for a great question! And here comes a long answer!
Machines with an E61 group have a thermo-siphon which is constantly circulating water powered by convection between the heat exchange section inside the boiler to the group head and back. Water that flows to the group cools some and returns to the HX section within the boiler. So water in the HX section is cooler than in the steam section of the boiler. The main engineering challenge is getting the flow rate to the group just right in conjunction with heat loss in the group and the connecting plumbing. There are other factors involved but heat is always moving out of the HX section of the boiler and to the group and cooler water is returned via the thermo-siphon. Flow rate is commonly controlled by a flow restrictor in the thermo-siphon loop. More restriction means hotter boiler and cooler group. Less restriction means cooler boiler and hotter group. Flow restrictors are fairly simple. Usually just a disc with a hole drilled in it in the line that goes to the group. Changing the hole size changes the flow rate. The Pro 500 PID happens to use a 2.5mm hole size restrictor. FYI nearly every HX boiler/E61 machine has a flow restrictor. Some manufacturers pay more attention to sizing it properly than others.
There used to be a few machines with adjustable flow restrictors. But they didn't work out well as they'd get compromised by scale buildup etc. so manufacturers are not doing that anymore.
We will be reviewing the ECM Mechanika Slim! It'll be a few weeks as we are waiting on delivery.
Thank you for that excellent answer! So basically, it's the size of the flow restrictor and the length of the thermo-siphon tubing that determines how much of a cooling flush is required?
If this new Pro 500 uses 2.5mm hole size, what size does, e.g. ECM Technika IV Profi use? In that machine a cooling flush is required :)
Amazing news about the Mechanika Slim, looking forward to your review!
Hi T, I do not have a T. Profi at hand to check :( But keep in mind just because 2.5mm works well in the Pro 500 it does not mean it would be the right size for another machine. All kinds of variables involved.
Thanks for all your excellent reviews. They make me love to have an ECM Synchronika and I´m willing to pay for the benefits of rotary pump, E61 Brewgroup, PID, dual boyler etc.
BUT: It is for about 5 cups a day and with that, 30-45 minutes time to heat up is what concernes me.
Do you think the PP 500 is significantly faster in heating up due to not beeing a dual boyler machine, and makes me happy as well?
Or could you think of any other machine with (most of) the mentioned features that heats up significantly faster?
Hi Rainer, You are welcome! Thank you for the question. The Pro 500 will heat up a little faster as it's putting all it's power into one boiler instead of two. a couple of things you might consider. First, a timer switch. We love wifi enabled timers. You can put on a schedule and/or control remotely from a smartphone app so you can have your machine come on before use. Second, you can speed up the warm up of the E61 group by running blank shots prior to use - the boiler will be up to temp with 5-10 minutes of turn on. Third, if you are not steaming the steam boiler can be turned off via a switch behind the drip tray. For a machine that heats up faster you might consider the Profitec Pro 300. It's a compact dual boiler PID machine with smaller boilers: www.wholelattelove.com/profitec-pro-300-dual-boiler-espresso-machine
Thanks a lot for your time to help - some more things now to consider.
The Pro 300 is very nice and should be fine for my 5 cups a day (and even more), I just whish it has a E61 group. (And I am still in love with the ECM Synchronika ... so maybe the Pro 500 will be a good compromise, if it heats up faster.)
Thanks a lot again, and maybe you can also give a big ´thank you´ to Todd and Morgan too, they are very helpful as well.
Hi Rainer, You are most welcome. I will pass along your BIG Thank You!
I've had the Profitec 500 with flow control for about a year. I love it and have had great results! I keep wondering though what the baseline flow is on the standard 500? What would the rotation (from zero flow) be to equal the flow diameter of a standard Profitec 500 without flow control?
Hi KH, Thanks for the feedback sharing your results with flow control. The stock (no FCD) flow rate on most vibration pump machines is about 8g/s with no restriction. To obtain that rate with FCD installed open the FCD about 1.25 turns. Here's a great article which includes more info on FCD calibration and graphs of flow rates for various coffee types and brewing situations: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
Here's a link to playlist with a number of videos concentrating on a specific flow control extractions: czcams.com/play/PLaBDDfOHAAC2tlvMR2WZSLjizjGrcIT7H.html
Marc
Does the lcd screen double as a shot timer?
Hi M, The most recent version of the Pro 500 we carry in US/Canada does have a shot timer and the PID screen is visible. This is not the case on all Pro 500's. See it here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-500-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage ao if the pid screen is mounted behind the drip tray I can assume that it doesn’t have a shot timer? Thank you for all the info you provide
If I don't need a flush, what is the advantage of getting the pro 600?
Tnx for the review. Would you recommend this machine over Rocket Mozzafiato R? Which looks better in person? Ty
Hey t, You are welcome. So the Profitec Pro 500 PID is one of my favorite HX boiler machines. AS far as what looks better in person, I like the look of the Mozzafiato with it's thick slab side panels. Rocket does go heavy on the branding of their machines which sometimes gets to be a bit much for me - but that's personal preference. Other things to consider: The Mozzafiatto R (R = rotary pump) is plumbable direct to water line. The Pro 500 is not plumable and uses a vibration pump.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Mi Marc, thanks for the video! Just got my new Pro 500 w Flow control! It's beautiful! Any tips to get good crema on this? Not sure what I am doing wrong but I don't get any crema. My old machine was a Gaggia Classic and I am using all the same coffee and grinder (I have a Breville grinder) but no crema with the Pro 500. Do you have any advice? This is the first time I use a machine like this. Thank you!!
Hi AP, Sorry for the delayed response. Been hectic around here as we deal with current events. I posted a video a couple of days ago on calibrating flow control and a deep dive into 5 flow profiles to use for different coffee types and situations which should help: czcams.com/video/_8lNz2rL5l8/video.html Beyond that, lack of crema is usually the grind size and/or the coffee. If it's a coffee you used with the Classic and got crema it should def be capable on the Pro 500.
Marc
WOW MARK that is awesome, can my current Profitec pro 500 get that PID? or would i have to sell mine and get the new version. Also what about the steam would that be affected since its not a dual boiler?
Hi B, Thanks for the comment. Kinda figured the retrofit question would be coming! We have contacted Profitec to get their feelings and see if any plans for a PID retrofit kit. Will let you know. Bottom line, anything is doable with enough time, ingenuity and $$. No affect on steam. With boiler PID set to 252 I was able to produce continuous steam. I let steam run for more than 2 minutes and boiler temp never dropped below 245F. The stock 2 hole steam tip is well balanced to steam production.
That is very impressive. I thought it would be like the silvia with a pid how steam temp is not as good compared to a dual boiler setup. I'm very impressed how Profitec can guarantee the temp of brew and steam is not affected.
The only thing I don’t understand is why would you mount an electronic display where the water and steam are dispensed? Seems like that’s a PID just waiting to get shorted by all the steam and water.
Hi MF, Thanks for the comment. It does seem odd - I get the concern. But the display is well protected and electronics are all behind the face of the machine. I've heard of next to no problems with water and the displays.
Marc
In the graph shown at 0.39s was there a cooling flush done at all before the #1 shot (199.6*F)? If not, how long was the machine on before hand? Thanks :)
Hi I, thanks for the question. No cooling flush before shot #1. Machine was on for at least one hour prior.
What’s the difference between the Profitec Pro 500 and the Rocket Mozzafiato Type V? I’m strongly considering a single boiler traditional style espresso machine with PID control.
Hi MS, Great question and good timing. I have a video going up later today comparing the Pro 500 PID, Rocket Evo R Giotto and Bezzera BZ07. They are all HX boiler PID machines. As you probably know Rocket makes the Type V and Evo R machines. They are the same spec wise. Only difference is Evo R's have rotary pumps and are plumbable. The Mozzafiatos and Giottos are identical. Only difference are the exterior panels. As to difference between Pro 500 PID and Mozza Type R... Both are incredibly consistent with brew temps! IMO the Pro 500 is more elegantly designed internally. It has less complicated plumbing and better component layout. Also much nicer steam and hot water valves on the 500. What the Rocket has is more flair in the form of branding and a +$200 price. The Mozza does have a weird thing IMO where the drip tray width is a little larger than width of side panels so it extends beyond them by about a 1/4 inch. They use same drip tray on Mozza and Giotto. Works on the Giotto but has the overhang on the Mozza. Hope that helps. Let me know if you have more questions.
Marc
Whole Latte Love Marc, thank you for the quick and informative reply! I’ll check out the new video later today. For the Rocket lineup, I’m leaning more towards the Mozzafiato because I really like the flat sides and how the guard rail is actually a part of the panels. But you’re right, I now notice how the drip tray is a little wider than the rest of the body. Have you tested brew temperature consistency for the Mozzafiato like you did with the Pro 500? And if so, does the Mozzafiato have comparable results?
Hi Michael, Hopefully you caught the new video: czcams.com/video/Rn1S23pGPiQ/video.html I test the Giotto with the Scace in the video. Results are comparable to the Pro 500. As mentioned the Mozza and Giotto are identical internally. I have Scaced the Mozza before and no difference from the Giotto.
Hi Marc, I caught the video! Very in depth analyses for all 3 machines. It looks like overall the Rocket and the Pro 500 are pretty comparable high quality machines. Now I just have to convince myself to spend $2,000+ on an espresso machine and a suitable grinder.
Michael Schigelone hear you! It’s an above average investment
God I want this so much!!!
Can I install this on my Profitec 500? I already get perfect shots but the PID looks interesting!
Hi K, I understand. Well implemented PID on this HX boiler machine gives you some of the capabilities usually found only on dual boiler machines.
Can you add this to existing Pro 500?
Hi michael, We're checking with Profitec if they will offer a PID retrofit kit for existing Pro 500's
If not PID the restrictor would be a GOLDEN thing to add to the existing pro 500
Being that most prosumer machines have a copper boiler, is there any disadvantage of a SS boiler found in this machine and the ecm v slim? Or should this be seen as an advantage over copper?
Hi Eric, Thanks for the question. Most newer machines I'm seeing have stainless steel boilers. Especially ECM, Profitec. Working with a Rancilio Silvia Pro at the moment and it has a stainless steel service boiler and brass (lead free) brew boiler. I personally have a slight preference for stainless steel but I would have no problem with copper. No disadvantage to SS IMO. Actually it looks much nicer down the road when you open up a machine. Copper tends to discolor (patina) and get stains.
Marc
I would love to see a review and hear your thoughts on the Nuova Simonelli Appia Automatica II machine.
Hi g, I'd love to give you my thoughts but I have never used that machine so I don't have any :(
Hi Marc,
I've generally settled on the Profitec 500 for my next machine but had a question. How will it keep up with occasional entertaining? Ie back to back drinks (up to 6 lattes for friends for brunch)
Cheers!
Dorian
(Ps....just recieved my Baratza Sette 270wi the other day from WLL and wow.....amazing!)
Hi Dorian, 270 Wi is very impressive - glad to hear you are liking! Thank you for your business and sharing your impressions. The Pro 500 should service your needs. Boiler pressure for steaming will recover by the time you've prepped the next shot. If you go fast between the 6 lattes there's a chance you may see brew temp drop ever so slightly maybe 1 degree F. - nothing to be concerned with. Guessing you saw the results of my temp stability testing here: czcams.com/video/9Ps4JfqRPuI/video.html
Marc
Now what:-) PRO300 or PRO500PID....??? Heating time 300vs500?Thanks!!!
zdenekdvc Hi, if heat up time is concern, you’ll want to watch this video: czcams.com/video/Rn1S23pGPiQ/video.html we test 3 popular PID HX boiler machines including the 500 for heat up times, brew temp stability and steaming performance. PP500 PID heat up was 38 minutes. I have not tested the Pro 300 yet but it should be faster. Do check out the video linked above. There’s a machine that is fully up and ready to go in 18 minutes. It has an electrically heated group.
Whole Latte Love Thank you very much for your feedback.PRO300 should be in 10min. Anyway its better DB machine like PRO300 or HX PRO500PID for "simillar"price? Doual boiler is better right?
It depends... Pro 500 can handle more drinks per hour and has a much larger boiler so likely better steaming performance. Pro 300 is a good choice for lower volume use. Its more compact so a good choice if counter space is a concern.
Do you have a chart for brew temperatures along the entire duration of a 30 second or whatever brew? If that, too, maintains the 1 degree variance, it seems like you're losing a bit of the character of the heat exchanger system just for the sake of saving a bit of water by not doing a cooling flush?
If it maintains the temperature profile (I don't see how it wouldn't? There's always going to be cooler water entering the heat exchange loop, so the temperature will always decrease to some degree, right?), though, I know what I'm going to be saving up for.
Hi g, Thanks for the question. I do not have a graph from the Scace for extended duration. What I would typically see when running water thru the Scace was the temperature drop a degree or two during the time 2oz/60ml of water was dispensed. Keep in mind water entering the HX is flowing very slowly so it has time to gain heat from rest of boiler as well as from the thermal mass of the brew group.
Thanks for the in depth review. Super helpful! Is it possible to add an aftermarket float kit to this machine. I know the 700 has it but this is about all the machine I’d need. Thanks!
Hi Phillip, You are welcome and thank you for the kind comment! The Profitec Pro 700 can be pumbebd directly to water line. I strongly recommend plumbing over using an aftermarket float controlled reservoir refill. They are prone to failure IMO. High risk of flooding if the float fails. If willing to take the risk there's likely and aftermarket solution but nothing I feel comfortable endorsing.
Marc
Whole Latte Love thanks for the insight!
Phillip Zito my pleasure! Marc
How does the Profitec 500 compare to the Bezzera Magica pid and Mitica top? Is there a significant difference in quality? I don’t see these 2 Bezzera machines in your store, any specific reason for that?
Reason for asking is that I live in Singapore where the Bezzera’s are available but the Profitec I would need to import from Malaysia, so a bit more difficult on the aftercare support.
Hi Peter, Thanks for the question. We have chosen not to carry the Magica and Mitica. Frankly that decision is beyond me. My guess is they're either not available in US market or our product specialists decided they overlap in capabilities/features with other machines we carry. The Magica is up there in pricing for a HX boiler machine - significantly higher price than the Pro 500 PID so that likely has something to do with the decision. IMO the Pro 500 is the cream of the crop of PID HX boiler machines. Other options in that category are the Rocket Espresso Type V and Evo R Mozzafiato and Giotto machines. Type V is vibration pump while Evo R is rotary pump and plumbable. The Rocket machines are more expensive than the Pro 500. My preference is with the Pro 500 - slightly better build quality than the Rockets but some prefer the look/branding of the those.
Hope that helps!
Marc
I have a question. What's the big deal with cooling flushes? I'm not being a wise a$$ here, I just don't know. Any time I've seen a video of someone doing one, they lift up a knob for about two seconds and a little water flows into a glass and then they turn it off, place their cup under the portafilter and make an espresso. I'm sure we all know why the double boiler machines were invented, and the Italians still use heat exchanger machines because they believe they make a better espresso. I read that the declining temperature profile of a heat exchanger extracts less astringents at the end of the extraction and that's a good thing. Is this true? I'm trying to figure out if a lot of people (me included) are being suckered into buying double boilers and i'm pretty sure they are. I see posts online from people who have heat exchangers and make double boilers sound like their end game and not once have I seen information to back up why that would be the case. Let's face it, pretty much nobody is having a big party and making 15 cappuccinos back to back for their guests. To me, the Profitec Pro 500 looks to be a perfect machine for the home barista. People need to know that double boilers were invented because American baristas are for the most part a bunch of 19 years olds who could care less about coffee and would make a bad espresso with a heat exchanger, in part because of the cooling flush or lack there of.
stainless steel boiler in this machine vs. copper? pros and cons?
Hi ND, Stainless is what most manufacturers are using for boilers now. There are lots of opinions on copper v. stainless but we find no difference in cup in well maintained boilers. There is some opinion stainless scales less. Copper is the traditional boiler material but that's likely because it was more available and easier to work with decades ago. Copper is better at conducting heat but there's no clear advantage to that property now that most boilers are insulated. Some opinion that stainless boilers last longer.
Remember; Because copper conducts heat better, it also means that it gives off heat outside of the boiler more so, than a stainless steel boiler. In essence, copper boilers "leak" heat more. Insulation helps prevent that a bit of course, but stainless steel, while it might conduct heat worse than copper, it will also keep more of the heat inside the boiler rather than leaking outside into the casing. Think of it this way; With a copper boiler, the heating element inside it heats up the inside as well as the entire boiler, making it a giant heating element for the water inside it. With a stainless steel boiler, the heating element inside it heats up only the inside and, seeing as stainless steel conducts heat worse, the outside of the boiler won't get as hot as a copper boiler. Since you only want the inside water to get heated, stainless steel is thus more effective! Disclaimer; Don't put your hands on the boiler, regardless of material, you'll still burn off your skin XD
Hi Marc .. a maintenance issue.. I have had the Pro 500 PID for about 5 months and love it. Almost no flushing required. I have a question about chemical backflush cleaning. When I do it, it really removes all lube off the shot pull lever/cam 'innards'. I then need to disassemble and add Molykote, which is not too bad. I recently read and tried adding about 3-4 drops of extra virgin olive oil in a water backflush and that seems to lube it as well (do that once a month). Can you ask your maintenance gurus if they think the olive oil will also coat stuff it shouldn't. The lever mechanism dries out so much, that I'll need to lube somehow after every chemical clean (3g cafiza, every 2 mo. 1-2 shots daily). Thanks.
Hi Dave, Thanks for the question. I'll forward to our service manager and report back with any thoughts he may have. Honestly don't think he'll have any experience with olive oil but may have an opinion on coating stuff that it should not.
Marc
Here's the response from our service manager:
"Interesting. I never heard of that one. The only thing I could see it possibly affecting is it could possibly cause a buildup on the filter screen inside the mushroom valve since the oil will move to the top when not in use. I’d just suggest he keep an eye on that.
I’ll start trying that on my home machine too. For science."
Thanks for the reply.. probably once a year I'll take the mushroom valve out and clean and examine for any buildup.
Hi Dave, I noticed this too the first time I cleaned the group with Cafiza. Cafiza is pretty aggressive stuff, so the second time I just used about half so 1,5 grams (more in line with Profitec own 2 gram tablets) which seems to be the right balance between cleaning and removing oils from the group, but not removing all the oils from the lever itself. Also the profitec manual advices to wait 1 minute to after each backflush with lever in middle position and purge the water after that minute. This allows the cafiza to do its work. Most videos in the internet purge the water directly. So my take is, use less cafiza and more time to let it do the job cleaning the group. Hope this helps. If you used to much cafiza and all oils are gone, you don’t need to use seperate oil , because this will automatically build up again after a few days of making coffee.
Although the Pro 500 cannot be plumbed, does this HX have any kind of line pressure that will allow for pre-infustion? I know the E61 has an adjustment which allows for pre-infustion, but you need some kind of line pressure 1.5 - 3 bars. Does the Pro 500 have said line pressure?
Shawn Michael Larkin Hi Shawn, thanks for the question. HX machines with E61 group can “pre-wet” the coffee but do not pre-infuse with no connection to line pressure. Even when plumbed, not all machines do line pressure pre-infusion. Many of those have solenoids which close off line pressure unless the pump is running. Machines with solenoids include rotary pump models like Rocket R58 and Expobar Brewtus. Machines like Profitec Pro 700 and ECM Synchronica do not have solenoids on line in so can pre-infuse with line pressure. Some users consider the slower pressure build up of vibration pump machines like the Pro 500 a type of pre-infusion but it’s not controllable like you’d have on the Pro 700 or Synchronika. Hope that helps. Let me know if you have more questions and I’d be happy to answer.
Thanks for the reply. Can you detail the "pre-wet" ability of the machine? I presume you mean that if you move the E61 lever to the appropriate place, then any pressure left in the system will allow a very small amount of water to drip onto the puck. Is this right?
That's right. Move the lever to the spot just before the pump kick on.
Hi Mark, can the Pro 500 PID do pre-infusion?
Marc, I just got this machine and am dosing ~18g in 9s on eureka mignon specialita into stock double shot basket. 6s to first drip and I get ~ 55ml of coffee in 26s from first drip. Does this sound right? Does the grinder have to break in and will I have to make adjustments towards finer grind size as I run more beans through it? It's pulling great shots but the crema production seems to be lacking in comparison to some other videos I have seen. Brew temp is stock out of the box w/ steam temp at 248. Pucks come out mostly in one piece but are a touch soupier than I would like. I am using a fancy 58.5mm distributor and tamper. Coffee is night and day difference from a breville machine, but do you have any tips for a newbie like me? Thanks!!!
Hi Matthew, Thanks for the question and sharing your details - that helps in framing my response. Your timing sounds reasonable. If anything, you might try grinding just a hair finer and compare flavor. With grind size dialed in crema production is usually more about the bean type. Some coffees produce more than others. Classic Italian style bean blends tend to produce more crema than single origin 100% arabica coffees. Keep in mind crema isn't everything. Boiler set at 248F puts you right in the middle of espresso extraction temp of 200F. Grinder break in is more about speed of grinding than big changes in grind size. As the burrs are coated with coffee oils there's less friction so you will grind faster. For a given grind time you will grind more coffee weight as the grinder breaks in. If you are into details you might consider a scale to accurately weigh your coffee dose and shot for precise brew ratios. Measuring espresso output volume in ml is usable but there's guesswork with crema rich coffees. You might consider upgrading to a precision filter basket which typically use a slightly finer grind resulting in a deeper extraction. The Baristapro 20g is perfect for your current dosing weight: www.wholelattelove.com/products/baristapro-20g-nanotech-precision-portafilter-basket Also consider upgrading your shower screen to this: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/pro-brewing/products/ims-nanotech-e61-shower-screen Provides a more even distribution of brew water onto the puck and cleans far easier than stock screen. Might also improve your pucks a bit. Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Marc thanks for the reply. I do believe the coffee may be attributed to good but not excellent Crema. Thanks for the help. I am using Lavazza oro from your store I got with the machine. Why would You recommend a 20g basket if I am dosing 18g of ground coffee? Doesn’t ims make a barista pro basket that is 18g? I am now playing around with a 1:2 brew ratio and it seems very good. If I brew more than 40g liquid from 18g dry coffee it seems to disintegrate in regards to quality Unless incorporated into a milk based drink. Steaming milk is a joy with the new machine but boy does it go quick. I seem to be good getting plenty of airy cappuccino foam but the smooth wet latex paint micro foam for lattes looks like it’s going to take some more practice. Also seems like the pitcher gets incredibly hot very quickly after the sides get warm and I sink the tip. Using stock 2 hole tip. Any more tips are greatly appreciated.
Hi Marc, what would be a good grinder to go with the Profitec Pro 500 PID? I currently have a Breville Smart Grinder Pro.
Hi VL, A bunch of options I consider a good match with the Pro 500. Best value in a grinder with prosumer level build quality is the Ceado E6P or Ceado E5P. The E6P has timed presets while the E5P is totally manual. If you use or will use a bottomless PF don't get the E5P has grind start is activated by a the spouts of the portafilter. Check out Ceado grinders here: www.wholelattelove.com/brands/ceado
The Baratza Sette 270 series grinders don't have the same level of build quality as the Ceado (more plastic) but if you are doing a few shots a day they will be fine. Baratza considers them to be their best all around espresso grinders. Very fast, near zero grind retention and very accurate with timed dosing on the base 270 and weight based dosing on the 270Wi. Also consider the Baratza Vario - especially if you grind for other brew methods. Check out Baratza grinders here: www.wholelattelove.com/brands/baratza
If you want a grinder which matches your machine there's the Profitec T64. It has very precise worm gear adjustment, timed grinding presets and prosumer level build in a small package: www.wholelattelove.com/profitec-pro-t64-grinder
Hope that helps!
Marc
I like the look of the T64 though it's at the top end of my budget. I notice it has a 450 watt power supply. Will there be any issue with the Pro 500 (1400 watts) and the T64 (450 watts) on the same 15 amp circuit? Also, any idea on the grind retention on the T64?
Hi Marc :)
Would you be able to recommend any other machine roughly around the price of the Pro 500 that is a heat exchanger, has PID and is exceptionally well built? Thanks!
-Tom
Hi TP, Thanks for the question. HX boiler machines are in high demand and there have been virus related production slowdowns in Italy. Currently available are the Rocket Espresso Cronometro Type V machines. The Mozzafiato and Giotto are identical internally with different body panel styles.
Giotto: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/semi-automatic-espresso-machines/products/rocket-espresso-giotto-cronometro-type-v
Mozzafiato: www.wholelattelove.com/products/rocket-espresso-mozzafiato-cronometro-v
Marc
Hey Mark. I was wondering if the Profitec flow control kit is compatible with the Pro 500. I've noticed that the flow control kit is out of stock right now but I'm set on getting the Pro 500 if the kit is compatible. Thanks.
Hi Ricky, Thanks for the question. The Profitec E61 Flow Control Device is compatible with all Profitec machines with E61 groups: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-e61-flow-control-device
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks for the info. The Reddit community was speculating that the flow kit might not be the best idea with HX machine due to over heated water. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for when the flow kit is back in stock.
Just recieved my Profitec 500 PID today from WLL, I noticed the PID was set to 120C, can I get this to display in F instead?
Hi Christopher, Yes, you can change display to F in advanced PID settings. With the machine off press and hold the + and - buttons and turn the machine on. While holding buttons down wait for "F.01" to appear in display. Then use the left button to cycle through parameters until you see "C". Then use the right button to toggle to "F". Once that is set turn the machine off for 7 seconds and turn back on. Display should now read in F. Be careful not to change other settings in the advanced PID menu.
Marcv
Does the PID control both the brew and the steam temperatures?
It's a heat exchange system with one boiler, so the PID controls boiler temperature, higher temps = higher pressure in the boiler, which means higher power (and I guess temperature) steam.
Can you really skip the cooling flush with an HX PID machine?
Hi Dario, Thanks for the question. Based on my Scace testing of brew temps the answer is yes. There are some times when it may be needed due to odd ambient temperature conditions, extra long on and idle time before use, etc.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks. I’m closing in on a machine and really leaning toward a HX one. Most people on forums say it’s a waist of time and just get one with DB’s. The smaller footprint of an HX really works for me. But I don’t want to have any regrets.
Good enough to use for a coffee shop?
Hi Malibu, Thanks for the question. It's technically not a commercial machine so not suggested for use in coffee shop. That said, it's capable of producing espresso every bit as good as what you'd get in a specialty cafe.
Marc
why did they chamge the tips to a two hole tip instead of the old 4 hole tip? should i change it?
Hi Jesus, I'd only change it if you are not happy with performance of your 4 hole tip. With a 2 hole tip on the PP500 PID you can steam indefinitely without running out of pressure. With the 4 hole you get more steaming power at start but drain pressure faster.
Hi Mark, I'm a oscar ii user but thinking to have a little upgrade to pro500. Only one question, is the steam power stronger then Oscar ii? Thanks.
Hi YH, Thanks for the comment. My apologies for the delayed response. Just back from 2 weeks in Italy visiting with various manufacturers including Profitec. Steaming power is very similar as both machines have 2L boilers. Personally, I prefer the stainless steel boiler in the Pro 500. Something else to keep in mind the Pro 500 is a PID machines so brew temps are much more accurate. Also build quality is dramatically better on the Pro 500: www.wholelattelove.com/profitec-pro-500-pid-espresso-machine
Whole Latte Love Hi WLL, just watched the new video about ecm/profitec visiting and very impressed. Also see the pro600 finally get more information! I'm expecting about the pro 500 and 600 comparison. Well done guys!!!
can you do a comparison of ecm s-automatik vs profitec t64
So is it safe to say that as long as i wait 3 min between shots i wilo get pretty consistant remp in my normal none oid pro 500?
Hi JHM, The non PID 500 should recover after three minutes without problem.
Profitec Pro 500 PID or ECM Mechanika v Slim ? what would you do if you had the choice? :-)
Hi MK, Thanks for the question. Tough call about the same price for both. If you do lot's of milk drinks back to back you will appreciate the huge boiler in the Slim and it's narrow - almost 2 inches less in width than the 500. Brew temps are more stable with the PID on the 500 and no flushing required prior to brewing. You will need to flush the Slim prior to brewing but can make very quick brew temp adjustments by adjusting the flush.
Marc
Can the feet be removed or replaced with something shorter to reduce the height?
Hi Vernon, The feet can be removed and you could put something shorter in their place. You do need some sort of feet as there are so0me fasteners on the bottom of the machine which protrude about .3". An easier option to gain clearance is removing the cup rail. It's held in by 4 easy to access screws. Removing the cup rail reduces machine height by 1.5".
Marc
Thanks! Just got mine today from your shop and it looks very nice. One thing I noticed is the boiler pressure gauge barely touches the green zone (around 0.9 bar). Is this an issue?
Nvm, figured it out :). I noticed you had your PID temp set to 252 and once I raised mine from 249 to 252 the boiler pressure went clearly into green at a little over 1 bar. Really enjoying this new machine!
Can the Profitec PID be retrofitted to a Pro 500s?
Hi John, Thanks for the question. I'm guessing you mean the PID upgrade from a couple years ago for the Pro 700. If so you can't. Pro 700 is dual boiler so steam/service boiler temp does not affect brew boiler temp. Upping the temp in the Pro 500's heat-exchange boiler would raise the brew temp well beyond what's acceptable.
Marc
Is the OPV adjustment screw easily accessible?
Hi t, Thanks for the question. Here's a video showing how to adjust the OPV on the pro 500: czcams.com/video/uYKDQ3Stb3k/video.html It does require removing the outer case to get to the adjustment.
Marc
Thanks Marc!
Hey Marc, What was the release date of this machine?
Hi Joe, We received a pre-production Pro 500 PID last fall for evaluation. Finished final machines end of December 2017.
Given the HX boiler, PID, dual gauges, sprung valves, seemingly high quality design and prices within less than $50 of each other, what you are your thoughts on this machine versus the Bezzera BZ07, please?
I like the programming of drinks the BZ07 offers, but wonder if the Pro 500 may be longer lasting and better quality overall. I noticed the BZ07 only has a 1 year factory warranty while the Pro 500 has 3. I believe I have my choices narrowed down to these two, so any input is greatly appreciated!
For context, this will be my first espresso machine and I've eliminated single boiler options as I'm planning to make milk based drinks fairly often. So the higher steaming power and not having to constantly change the temperature of the boiler between frothing and brewing is important to me. I don't want to step up to a dual boiler, however, as I'd like to spend less than $2000. So a high quality, durable HX machine with great design and a decent value is what I'm looking for.
Thanks,
Mervyn
Mervyn Steadman I love the durability of Profitec machines and the 3 year warranty is a real bonus vs. the BZ07. Unless you want a narrow machine or have to have the programmable volume the PP500 is the winner. It’s a less complex design with more robust parts like the sprung valves. Case finish is nicer as well. In my mind it’s hard to beat Profitec machines for the price. If doing mostly milk drinks you’ll be at the machine steaming while espresso is brewing so volumetric dosing doesn’t buy you much. E61 group is much less complex and more reliable long term. Programmable volume is more a thing in commercial settings where doing other tasks at same time improves efficiency but in the end may sacrifice espresso quality. Hope that helps! Also we will likely see some minor price increases related to EU currency valuations on machines in the next week or so. If buying in the US don’t wait. Not trying to be pushy with that just advising prices will be going up near term. Hope that helps. Let me know if you have other questions. Marc
Thanks so much, Marc! Incredibly helpful - really appreciate the insight and advisement on upcoming price increases. That pretty much makes my decision.
You are welcome! Always happy to help.
i do not agree about pressurestat delta of 10F, this is absolutely no true. 1.0 bar = 253F. so if you look for the pressurestat its hysteresis is about 0.2 bars which -> if you are on 1.0-1.2 bar then the temperature is somewhere between 253F and 257F.
Hi Ivan, Thanks for the comment. If it's a hard .2 bar delta then you are correct and it's a smaller temp swing. My charts show 1 bar = 248.8F and 1.2 bar = 254.2F at sea level. I have observed over >.3 delta on some machines. If a pstat is cycling precisely at .2 bar there will be some overshoot when heating and undershoot when idle leading to a delta >5.4F best case.
Any idea when you will receive the Pro 600
Hi Sexy, We're expecting the Pro 600 in June/July.
Will the sides of the machine get hot when it is turned on?
Hi Zac, They get warm but not burn you warm. The top of the machine has a cup warming surface. It's heated passively and gets a bit warmer but still not burn you warm. The E61 group does get burn you warm due to thermo-siphon hot water circulation from the boiler. Hope that helps!
Marc
Wow, is this ever nice!
Hi Jesse, Thanks for the comment. The Profitec Pro 500 remains one of my favorite HX machines w/PID!
Marc
Why not just get a dual boiler design
Hi AT, Maybe for cost reasons?
When you gonna start accepting crypto currency
Hi Jay, No immediate plans. We'll see what the future holds.