Columbine Shooter's Mother Draws Criticism for Book and TED Talk | Sue Klebold Case Analysis
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- čas přidán 8. 11. 2023
- This video answers the question: Can I analyze case of Sue Klebold?
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I hate the misconception that they targeted their bullies. For starters both of them had been bullies themselves and many of their victims hadn’t done a thing to them. One student had a physical deformity that made him a target of bullies. He said Dylan made fun of him, and one of the victims, Rachel Scott, always went out of her way to be kind to him. While Columbine High School did have a bullying problem, Dylan and Eric are not anti-heroes. They’re self absorbed murderers.
This! One of the initial claims was that Eric and Dylan were targeting certain, specific students; but in reality, anyone and everyone at the school was a target.
I watched a movie about Rachel not knowing who she was. The scene when my brain catched up to what was about to happen to her was devastating
@@MichaelLovely-mr6oh They may or may not have intended to target specific individuals, but obviously that's easier said than done, and just because they expressed their rage against the school as a whole doesn't mean they weren't responding to the bullying they had suffered there. Equally if they did bully that doesn't absolve those who bullied them of culpability in the mental deterioration of these boys who became killers. A sick society creates sick children and sick adults.
They did not fit in and before they came at people they were shunned. Rachel Scott saw this and wanted to be different. They were misfits but it escalated to resentment & a danger point. It is most times hard to understand mental health & how to deal with it.
They're also just straight criminals who broke into a bunch of cars and got caught. Sue helped them get away with it...
It’s such an interesting thing to study. Your child committed a horrific act, however he is still your child. It’s such a grey area and touchy subject
Only if you're the kind of parent who causes horrible children.
If she cared so much. She should have raised him. Paid attention to him.
It's such a heartbreaking thing, I can't even imagine. No parent is perfect but no one would expect their kid to do something like this. I always feel so bad for the parents of shooters that weren't abusive/neglectful and had genuinely tried to be a good parent. On top of the heartbreak and guilt for their own child's actions, they also usually lose their child which is a parents worst nightmare. Regardless of what the kid did, they're still a parent that loves and lost their child. But they can't even grieve the loss of their child openly bc the entire world (deservedly so) hates the child for what they did. But the parents of a shooter lost their child in 2 ways- 1. their kid lost their life and, 2.the parents image of their kid being their innocent, sweet, loving child that they raised and loved as much as any parent loves their child, is dead. And I can't even imagine how conflicted a parent in this situation would feel between hating their kid for what they did and loving the kid that they raised.
And then on top of all of this, the rest of the world is looking towards the parents and finding all the reasons they can find for why it's the parents fault for raising their kid properly. Being the parent of a shooter is a hell I wouldn't wish on anyone
@@H8BOT666I don’t think that’s necessarily fair. I think it’s easy to sit there and pass judgement all these years later looking back. It’s easy to see now in retrospect, but you’ve got to remember people can be very deceptive and good at putting up a different perception. Dylan was obviously struggling a lot with his feelings and depression, but he may of not shown any glaring symptoms outwardly to his family.
I think parents tend to give their teenagers a fair amount of privacy so it’s easy to see how things got missed.
Eric’s parents on the other hand are a different story.
@theabby_g 'Act'? Singular? 13 dead and 25+ attempted murders? Which 'act' are you referring to?
As a teacher, it seems to me that about 50% of the kids are depressed, alienated, focused on grim imagery and entertainment, etc. You look at what they're drawing and it's a bloody weapon. So so many of them are like that. Good mothers can have bad children, and terrible mothers can have great children. Surely everyone knows this.
Everyone knows that but it’s also understood that bad mothers raise troubled children more often than good mothers, and good mothers raise well-adjusted children more often than bad mothers. No one is suggesting that these things are ultimate truths that always occur
Important to remember. And what mother is good and not also bad or bad without also being good?
I think as a parent, she is grieving too. It has to be your worst nightmare. Not only did other parents lose their children but her son was responsible. I have 2 sons. I was accused of being a strict mom. My kids had a curfew. They had consequences, good and bad. Regardless, you can’t know what your kids are doing 24/7. If they are staying the night with a friend, you hope they are behaving themselves. You don’t know though, do you? Lots of teens struggle with depression and self image issues. Teens don’t let parents into their world. They’ll talk to friends. They’ll tell you they are fine when they are not. I can’t imagine what she went through getting that message that her son killed several people, the hate and guilt she endured. I do feel bad for her and the families that lost children. Everyone can point fingers and blame. What if it were your kid? Would you know?
Best comment, I've seen. Excatly what you said, imagine losing your child but then finding out your child was responsible for a mass "you know what". It's like people just forget, he was raised by someone, he was someone's child. This is such a tough situation, she has a right to speak her thoughts. How can she personally make up for what her son did, she can't. So she's condemned forever? I don't know your comment said it all, It was the best.
Why did she write a controversial book and give controversial Ted Talks? How does that help victim’s families? Shouldn’t that be her main concern?
@Mike7mcdonald What did you find, so controversial about it? She didn't do it, her son did. Her son was an adult at the time, well 17 getting ready to turn 18. So for the rest of her life, 20 something years after her existence is to try to make up for what her adult son did? She can't. I was 15 when this happened, maybe 16 I am now 40 how many more decades does she need to make up for something she can't?
I thought her main point with the TED talk was with the issue of mental illness, but I got confused. Her heartfelt concern was admirable and she seemed to search for answers, and yet ppl felt she was off and could've shown some real concern.
@@Mike7mcdonald She is trying to save her family's reputation rather than taking blame for her part in creating a monster and the ensuing tragedy.
Once again, I DEEPLY recommend “how to stop a school shooting” here on CZcams by Randy Brown. He’s the father of Brooks Brown, who was friends with Dylan and therefore Randy saw him grew up and also how Sue parented. Interesting insight on Dylan’s downfall into violence and how the two got there.
Thanks!
Trash. Oh I’m sure he knows it all. Selling a damn book is all.
Will listen thank you
Im surprised that video isn’t gaining traction
Checking it out~
Thanks.
One thing to remember is that although Columbine wasn’t technically the first mass school shooting it happened in a time, unlike today, where most people didn’t even consider it a possibility. Heck, I graduated high school in 1998, and most of us had guns in our cars to hunt before or after school. I think Sue’s actions today looking back seem almost willfully negligent as a parent; however, back then, it was pretty common. Lots of parents were minimally involved in their teenagers’ lives. We were the latchkey kid generation after all.
I was the first mass shooting with mass deaths. Kip Kinkle killed two people at Thurston. Columbine incident killed 15 people.
I graduated in 1999 and I remember this so well. These boys looked like a lot of kids, it was the Manson, Metallica, Smashing Pumpkins, Alice in Chains era. I didn't understand why they were so angry and felt like they didnt fit in.
You were also the last generation to have actual family meals around the table, and not be babysat by a TV or phone screen
who the hell had time to hunt before school?
That’s facts … I was a latchkey kid growing up in Germany and my parents weren’t involved in my private life AT ALL …
Dylan and Eric had a third friend who distanced himself from them once they started escalating in violent thoughts and started planning the b0mbings. He was Dylan’s childhood friend and their parents were close. His parents explicitly told sue that eric was dangerous and had threatened to kill their son (friend 3). Eric even had a website where he talked in detail about making b0mbs and his plan to annihilate everyone in the state, starting with people closest to him. He even had a hit list of people at school! Sue dismissed friend 3’s parents and didn’t want to hear about it. These parents were so worried, they even went to the police with printouts, but the cops turned them away because TECHNICALLY no crime had been committed thus far. Sue was made aware well in advance, and she chose to not see it.
I think that was Brooks Brown. He also wrote a book regarding his experience in Columbine. It's a gut-wrenching read, especially on the part where he described Rachel's funeral.
Would you?
Ugh
It came out that these boys were both on psychotropic drugs for anti depression, and probably othe drugs. The Bible refers to pharmaceuticals as sorcery. This woman has more than likely been a victim of the pharmaceutical industry. Think about it...the way to make big bucks is to make sure there are tons of side affects to have returning customers. Witchcraft!
@@windsofmarchjourneyperrytr2823 Wouldn't you rather prevent this outcome, even if it means getting help for your child in an institution rather than have them murder innocent people and then kill themselves?
I agree, Sue deserves an open heart. Good parents don’t always have good kids and bad parents don’t always have bad kids . Life has many factors and it’s quite overwhelming much of the time.
I agree, but I don't think she has fully faced what happened yet. I still like her though and hope she can fully heal and fully love life and herself.
I read the article she did in People magazine and she did blame herself in that interview. She said she gave Dylan too much “privacy” and she should have been more investigative. She encouraged all parents to not give their teenagers privacy when you know something is wrong, but instead to look in their stuff, their room, their writings, etc.
But she thought Dylan was making plans for his future and that he would turn things around after high school. She spoke of how she held his face in her hands just the night before the shooting and told him she loved him. I thought it was heartbreaking.
It’s normal behavior for the most part by her son. Just a very very unlucky situation for all.
I read the book too. It was heartbreaking all around. ❤
@@corning1 Normal behaviour...except for that one tiny bit where he murdered a bunch of people eating lunch.
@@corning1 What do you mean? "Normal behavior" and "unlucky situation for all"
What part was normal, what part was luck?
People who get bullied have bad thoughts towards others. People who get cheated on get murderous thoughts. It’s life yall. It’s not fair. When a group who has a lot of money and power… when they are in a war people turn on them like we are witnessing in real time. This is life.
I think Dr.Grande hit the nail on the head, I'm a parent of four young boys and I feel like I've failed them, and they didn't even commit anything close to what happened. It's very hard being a parent at times.
(HUG)
I am the mother of a teenager who took their own life , I know I failed and Still haven't been able to understand what went wrong I have 3 other kids and it's so hard to remain uncool and stay strict as the teenage " I hate you" regularly screamed now causes me to imagine the worst case scenario every time
I raised my 4 sons alone after their dad died. I was a crap mother, hopeless at discipline, untidy, overly emotional. But apparently (according to my grown sons) I did 2 things right. They knew they were loved and I allowed no man to move in and play ‘dad’.
@@mntlhlthaddtnstilltrying I feel for you, such a terrible tragedy, I don't think you failed that child, as evidenced by the other 3
@@ErnestPiffel You sound like my mom. But I thought she was an awesome mother.
I don't understand how anyone can ask how she missed the signs. There are no signs that would make a parent believe their child is capable of such a crime
American schools are full of bullies. I was bullied all the way through. My pleas to the school and parents didn't result in any improvement. At times i had to deal with life threatening and highly insulting situations. Once i had it in my power, i relocated overseas. My heart goes out to all those who are bullied in the American school system. My condolences to all the victims of this horrible tragedy.
That's why people who are in charge actually need to start doing things (otherwise why do they have their jobs??)--instead of having certain students then go on to...something possibly worse--because not everybody has the luxury of being within a "normal range" and not everything is going to "get so much better once you leave". Not to mention the permanent emotional/mental/chemical/neurological damage done that we can't just magically throw away.
Not everybody has the luxury of relocating/uprooting/etc. for various reasons--medical/mental or financial or otherwise. It's why I'm a huge advocate (and always have been since I was a kid) of bringing back harsher punishments for bad/violent students that make things scary--and bad teachers/staff who abuse their positions (not just in religious schools)--and bad/selfish/lackadaisical parents most of all! They're a _huge_ chunk of the problem! And I'm not talking "bad" homes as in income/views/beliefs/etc.--just in general. Income has nothing to do with it. As for beliefs/views...that can get a lot more complicated/I come from a place where everybody's very very chameleon-like in that sense.
Seriously--people who are _supposed_ to be helping you will slam door after door after door in your face--and there will be no visible consequences for people who should have them. And if you try to stand up for yourself? YOU get punished--child or teenager! Then they (sometimes) get to "move on" in life and you don't, to a degree--depending on what you end-up developing in the process--which of course then _you'll_ be blamed for somehow instead.
_If you have a personal bad family-history that you learn bits & pieces of here & there/that was there from the beginning but in an insidious/not obvious way--even worse._ Bring back harsh punishments for bad/scary students who make things scary/problematic for other students and in some cases the staff--that will last--and actually start helping the ones who need it without wasting their money and telling them to "just wait a little bit more" for things that might only 50/50-chance happen/get better in the future! Hell--take them out of the schools/etc. altogether and put them somewhere where they can't harm anybody.
That said--don't worry--I'm not like this all the time/today just happens to be the worst day I've had in a long time. _I'd be screwed if I didn't actually actively search & seek out better people/better things--now there's some nice compensation for me. It's not much--but it'll have to do for now._ I mean it's not like I'm going to be compensated for my younger years/all of the money wasted on "therapists" who made me worse instead/medication that I shouldn't be having to pay for because I didn't choose anything--but I _do_ understand that you can't expect much out of people or out of Life in general so I'm working on just taking what I can get and trying to find happiness in a "simple" life. But yeah--maybe if parents actually did what they were supposed to--denormalize competition/bullying (that's half the battle) denormalize "standards" and take away all kinds of other things like that (including worth based on marks/awards/abilities/etc. but instead HUMANITY) then I think people would be SO much better off. And for heaven's sake denormalize weapons/war/violence and emphasis on "perfection" and on "the best" like in the movie Death Of A Cheerleader/A Friend To Die For! All those other things. Doesn't matter if it's the "local culture". Make-up a BETTER culture/identity. A SAFER one. Sorry to sound like a hippie but take a look around--has anything else worked?? No!!
EDIT: Oof--sorry. Almost went into a panic-attack there but got out of it. Go me, I guess.
@@gamma747: I feel your pain.
There are bullies everywhere but in western/ south Europe or Latin America it plays a big role the family and community support. People with mental problems get quickly noticed by the group, and it’s relatively easy to find medical or psychological help. Bullies can always put in their place by a brother, cousin, uncle, etc. And thrhow onto the mix that we don’t have access to assault rifles like they were a pair of snickers.
Lol you think the US is bad with bullying? Go to South America, Korea, Japan, China and then come back here
@@donotreply8979 Yeah, I've heard China is really bad from a very successful American who lived there 10 years. He said Chinese isolate an individual and everyone takes up against them. The group vs. the individual thing.
I think you did a fair, balanced, and tactful analysis. The best part I’ve seen so far. Thank you.
I think another thing Sue suffers now that I don’t think you mentioned is her own loss of identity. She is for the rest of her life now known as “the mother of the Columbine shooter”. That’s now her identity. That’s sad.
She brought that on herself by being a shitty parent.
I can imagine that. At least she still has one other child who was not a criminal.
A very insightful comment.
It wouldn't be her identity if she stayed out of the spotlight. Look at Eric's parents
Seems like she embraces it.
Every parents worse nightmare. That you don’t know your own child well enough and stop him doing something unimaginably awful. Sad.
I agree - I couldn't imagine . I'd literally go into seclusion for the rest of my life .
Unfortunately, even though she admitted to wishing she had not let him be reclusive, but more times than not, a parent can be the best parent in the world and still have a child flip shit. This is a parent’s nightmare whether they were completely involved in the child’s life or if they didn’t take the time to helicopter parent.
She knew, she just didn't care.
@@caseybrown4360"A parent can be the best parent in the world and still have a child flip shit" - I'm sure it's a great theoretical exercise to muse over except it rarely ever happens that way. Kids that have the best parents do not become mass murderers.
@@girlwhomustnotbenamed4139 would you care to cite your empirical evidence on your claim?
I read her book a few years ago. I found it… profoundly human? It made me see her as a person rather than the mother of a monster. She talks about her struggle with recognizing Dylan as “One of the Columbine Shooters” instead of her son that she had raised for almost 2 decades. It’s a great read- I highly recommend it. I will admit that her TedTalk (I saw it before reading the book) did rub me the wrong way. I didn’t think Dylan deserved to be recognized as a sucide victim but rather as a murderer. But I think she rationalizes it that way because it’s how she’s able to come to terms with his actions.
Lastly, I think people often forget, that while there were shootings before Columbine, they had never been as publicized- so infamous. The fact that we still reference this shooting from 1999 speaks for itself. The Klebold and Harris families were really in a minefield with no map. Even if I don’t agree with all Sue’s actions, I appreciate that she is opening that discussion with us. Especially now that there’s a new tragedy on the news every few weeks.
Do you expect a mother to remember her dead son as monster when he wasn't bad to her? I mean at least he wasn't out right abusive to her as far I know. Am I wrong?
Agreed. It's the same thing with every tragedy or act of violence, especially school shootings. People need to rationalize how a seemingly ordinary person could do something unimaginable, so they dehumanize an emotionally complex human by labeling them a 'monster' and explain and simplify their motives as pure 'evil'. But then they further wonder what could cause a person to be that way, and it's easiest to just entirely blame the parents. Of course, there are instances of criminal behavior that are likely the result of upbringing. A child with neglectful or abusive parents that expose them to a life of crime and poverty, and ignore red flags or encourage and bad behavior, is very likely to grow up with negative personality traits and questionable morals.
But when it comes to a suburban family who is present and supportive, it's unfair and shortsighted to blame them for not recognizing what was potentially the same normal kind of angst and struggle with identity that you see in millions of teenagers who don't end up massacring students. I'm sure she thought she found the right balance between respecting his privacy and independence, while doing enough to instill rules and discipline and teach right from wrong. You can be the most clingy, invasive, helicopter parent, and kids will still find a way to sneak around and go against your will. There's far too many environmental and psychological factors to take into account, and even two cases with identical factors won't determine the same result. Humans can do things that are just completely irrational.
I understand the importance of recognizing patterns of behavior and influence, it could help prevent it from happening again. But I don't believe people who leave harassing comments have the best intentions, or that it's productive. They just want someone to be the target of their initial emotional response.
I mean apparently Eric was the one that influenced Dylan in mostly hateful ways. Dylan, while eventually echoing those sentiments, was a bit of a blank slate because he was so depressed and nihilistic that he just didn't care about anything. If you don't value your own life, you start not valuing other lives because it fundamentally changes your understanding of existence and people's rights to it. That's why depressed nihilistic people are some of the most scary, because you assume that even if they don't value their own life they must at least still have the understanding of the concept that other people have the right to live. But that's not necessarily true because being that depressed can completely warp the mind. That's what Sue Klebold tries to teach. It's us who can't understand that feeling, who have to feel that people are hateful and evil monsters who relish the bad things they do, because that's the only way we can understand it.
Eric Harris was writing about what he wanted to do... he posted about it publicly on his website. A parent of one of their classmates (Randy Brown) was so concerned that he reported it to the police, several times. This wasn't a total shock to Sue Klebold.
@@ekl2947 It's on multiple people.
I read Sue's book and listened to her interview. She seems like a decent person. Tom Mauser, who actually lost a kid at Columbine, in his excellent book Walking in Daniel's Shoes, agreed she seemed like a decent person who tried to raise a good kid. Mauser is on my friends list.
I talked to Tom, defended him against Columbine cultists on his channel, and I admire him a lot. Tom had a lower opinion of the Harris' parents.
Unfortunately, no matter what Sue says or does, she is going to be interpreted in the least charitable manner, as commentators below are doing. Meanwhile most people aren't any better as parents and are probably even worse at parenting. They just aren't as unlucky, and the net provides them with a forum to throw stones.
thats the thing though, she was warned harris was dangerous and the two had gotten in trouble together numerous times, the argument is she should have prevented them from hanging out
10/10 comment
Was Mauser’s opinion affected by the Harrises’s and Klebolds’s opinions on firearms? I got the vibe that the Harrises were a military family where goofing around with fireworks was normal. The Klebolds were more Colorado-type hippies who were opposed to that kind of thing. Maybe Mauser felt that the Harrises had facilitated Eric’s worst tendencies whereas the Klebolds tried to rein their boys in? Pure speculation on my part.
I really appreciated your comment probably the most fair and balanced thing I've read in a really long time
@@youtubeuser206 Yeah. They got into shit with the police for talking about how they wanted to murder their classmate and wrote papers about how their ultimate dream was to shoot up the school. It probably would've been the smart thing to separate the two, since they were obviously not a good influence on one another. Harris more than anything.
Dr. Grande, I really appreciate your intelligent, honest opinions on difficult subjects. But more than that I appreciate your empathy for the human condition. ❤
I hope Sue sees this video. The comments also express compassion and respect to Sue,
I have to say, this was an exceptional analysis. Parenting is the most difficult job in the world. A job where the conditions change every moment, things you have no control over, and you just have to hit the balls as they come flying to you. And you pray each day that you have given enough, but not too much; that you have been there enough, but not too much. And I agree with you, her son probably did kill her [Sue Klebold].
This is the best video in the entire series. Unbelievably painful for a parent to front up like she did. I feel immensely sorry for everyone connected to this crime and the city it happened in, the victims, the killers and all. Unfortunately, literally noone has done anything about the issue in the US.
I was living in Denver as an RN at the time of Columbine incident. The community of Littleton still has scars from this tragedy. The Klebolds’ and Harris family were in the spotlight of blame. The pain in the community was exponential due to the death of so many kids and teachers. Littleton is an affluent community. I believe her book and Ted Talk presentation is a step towards healing for her and her effort to cope. I remember hearing she was having a very hard time coping. Areas where she still has weakness will become strengths for her. Keeping her hair appointment could have been she was dealing with disbelief her son did this and was in shock. Thank you for analyzing this case.
@@JuneBug_87 I believe the families moved. I moved an hour away from Denver.
@@edwardshell1289 The Harris' were still there for at least some time. I lived a few miles from the school and worked with the father for a few years after.
Two things I learned from this event:
1. I was in my last semester of college when this happened. There were more than a few ppl on campus who had an almost celebratory reaction. It was as if they could project themselves into the role of the boys. This happened and I believe, regardless of any later posturing to the contrary, there are ppl who will assert, “Yeah. I get you, bro.” My take on this is, “Okay. Now you know who the potential psychos in the immediate vicinity might be.”
2. Hindsight is always 20/20. I mean, all reasonable ppl tend to know this, but events like this reinforce this human reaction. “I would’ve seen it coming.” Okay. Easy to say.
My brother-in-law was a horrible human being. It’s amazing he never actually acted on his antisocial drives. His abuse of animals alone was enough IMO to see him institutionalized. His biggest apologist and enabler was his mother. She was arguably the complete opposite of Dylan’s mother and yet never dealt with a horror like this. Trust me when I say the world is a better place with that dude gone. Alcohol ended him... and oddly enough probably was the one factor that kept him from harming others.
Thank you for addressing the fact that everyone has narcissist characteristics in some sense and that doesn't equal narcissistic personality disorder. I'm sick of hearing people with no mental health training internet diagnosing everyone that they don't like as a narcissist or sociopath. There are criteria for this. People can still just be self absorbed or a jackass without having a mental health diagnosis. This isn't to negate that more attention to her son's negative behaviors wasn't needed. Many people minimize their children's problematic behaviors. Ask anyone in education.
The male brain, especially the frontal lobe where impuls control is seated, isn’t fully formed until they’re around 25 years old.
Thank you. "Narcissist" has been the popular buzzword in self-righteous internet circles for a couple of years now. It's losing its true meaning much like "toxic."
@@kellydalstok8900that's not specific to any gender... Age 25 is when the brain is fully developed and technically when adolescence ends.
So having your son's Highschool yearbook picture redone after the massacre bc it was 'an unflatering picture' doesn't scream narcissism?
@@Gigi-fp8pd clinically, no. Not every strange behavior is a mental illness.
I was in high school when this happened. Rooms were locked down across the country and kids afraid to go to classes. Events that defined an entire generation. We didn’t know school shootings would only get…worse.
I feel bad for her. It’s a leap to assume a teenager will go from a theft to mass murder. It was the the “first” big one that I remember. It was unheard of before. She is suffering too
The warning signs are things that we know to look for BECAUSE of this case. Unfortunately you don’t know what to look for until after the fact
She raised a nasty incel
I don't feel sorry for narcissists.
Don't' be sorry. The more you listen to her, you will notice she talks a lot about herself,how she ain't at fault at all, although she denied Dylan was hanging with Eric, making excuses for Dylan before Columbine but even now..
The more you listen, you will notice she is selfcentered af.
@@outtahere156yep
I lost a good friend to suicide a number of years ago. I spent too long afterwards blaming myself, looking at the "clues" I should have seen on time. After a while I realized there was little I could have done, that hindsight in these cases is more obvious than helpful. I imagine her case is similar, it's easier after the fact to see what you could have done different.
Quite honestly as a high school teacher I think there are a lot of administrators that choose to look the other way about bullying. Personal experience as a teacher.
Yes, from what I’ve seen and heard, there is not enough leadership about shutting down bullying and fostering an environment of safety.
Yes, that has been my experience as the student.
12 years of school. I witnessed 1st grade teachers handing over 5 year old classmates to the male janitor and returning the little girls to the room crying and curled up in the fetal position under their desk. I was 5.
I experienced teachers handing me over to strangers in the middle of the day and they would leave school with me trapped in their vehicle. I was 9.
I witnessed students beating up other students in religion class and the teacher was watching and ok with it.
I was 15.
I experienced a student molesting me and the teacher watched and so did the entire classroom.
I was 15.
Teachers and school administrators don't look the other way. They watch and get their jollies off on the abuse and then they pretend nothing ever happened.
The parents that say they know exactly what their teenagers are up to 24/7 are being untruthful or naive! She lost her life as she knew it as well, tragic all around
Well said.
Everyone is super self righteous to point the finger until their own kids do something horrible.
@@davesworld7688 Except that most of them don't, jackass.
@@davesworld7688Most kids grow up and go through their entire lifetimes and at no point in childhood or as adults are they ever responsible for anybody else's loss of life- either justified or unjustified.
I never knew that "most" "teenage males" get arrested?
For whatever it's worth the bullets they found postmortem inside of klebold came from Harris's gun.
I’m in the UK and was only 20 at the time of Columbine and while I remember it being on the news here it was thousands of miles away so paid only a little attention to it. However, over the years I became more and more interested in the full story so have watched countless documentaries,footage and interviews etc and I also read Sue Klebolds book which absolutely broke my heart. As the Mother of 2 sons I couldn’t help but feel utter sorrow for this grieving Mother who wasn’t allowed to grieve because her child was responsible for this awful tragedy ☹️ The feelings of all the parents who lost children that day are hard to comprehend but to accept what Dylan and Eric did on top of losing them too I just can’t even begin to imagine how you recover from that. I don’t think I would. I feel admiration for Sue for having the guts to stand on a stage and try to educate other parents on the warning signs of someone like Dylan. In a country such as the US with guns so readily available surely sharing her experience can only be a good thing to try to avoid it happening again. That takes real courage in my opinion.
It's not the guns! They are inanimate objects! Fun fact, all the guns were bought illegally!
I'm so glad I read Sue Klebold's book. I thought she had deep insight and she tried to help others understand how this horrifying tragedy all came about. Society loves to blame mothers for anything and everything. People are so quick to judge others...which is really our own loss. Also, until we experience Earth-shattering tragedies that defy human comprehension, we remain clueless.
I agree, as a Forensic Psychiatrist specialising in adolescents there are kids out there with way more disordered behaviour that never end up doing anything like this.
Indeed, mothers much, much, much more than fathers.
She acts like anybody would have failed to recognise the warning signs when Randy Brown quite literally reported his concerns to the police just a few months before the attack
Exactly
I really like this analysis. Humans are so complex. One could argue that holding and honoring multiple feelings about a topic is a sign of emotional maturity.
People are MORE Educated about Mental health issues today than they did years ago!!! We have so much more information at our fingertips!!! I just can't imagine how this must feel as a parent not knowing their child would commit such a horrific crime!!!
My sister murdered 2 of her grandchildren and her son-in-law. It was premeditated. People need to know we ALL have our public self, a private self, and a secret self. NONE of us reveal our secret self to anyone. Ask serial killers about this. My sister was the third killer in my immediate family and the only one caught. She was suspected of murdering our father 3 years before but they couldn't prove it.
Wow! Sorry to hear about it, what a tragedy ! Who are the 2 first killers of your family and, are you implying being a killer has something to do with family ?
Three selves…interesting
Your sister was mentally insane.
I'm sorry for the loss of your dad.
In Japan, it called three masks it is a belief and behavior observed in cultures who have stridently upheld public presentations of behavior demonstrated to display honor and integrity and equally high expectations of personal behaviors in private.@@CHDean
Thank you Dr. Grande for this powerfully nuanced and compassionate analysis of this mother's unimaginable dilemmas.
Great comment 💎
Agreed. It would have been very easy to jump on the bandwagon and criticise Sue, but that isn't Dr Grande's MO. Careful analysis reveals a situation which is actually beyond the average person's comprehension. There have certainly been worse mothers in history whose children have not acted on their emotions in the way that Eric and Dillon did. Although it was an adolescent choice, it was their choice.
Agreed. It would have been very easy to jump on the bandwagon and criticise Sue, but that isn't Dr Grande's MO. Careful analysis reveals a situation which is actually beyond the average person's comprehension. There have certainly been worse mothers in history whose children have not acted on their emotions in the way that Eric and Dillon did. Although it was an adolescent choice, it was their choice.
i survived a school shooting, was there when it all happened and almost got shot, i can say for me i admire her ability to talk about this as it isn’t easy and it’s the closest thing i have to family speaking out about the incident at my school
I'm so sorry that happened to you. As a teacher I have to think about this every time we do a drill. I'm glad you can find some relief or therapeutic value in Sue's story. All the best to you.
So, basically, you either abused some kid to the point they were willing to die to ensure you that you wouldn't be bullying people any longer or you knew about it and did nothing. I hope you decide not to be such a miserable piece of shit anymore.
@@jennj9026 It's hard for us in the UK to even imagine having to do a drill like that. We just don't have to. I wish you didn't have to either.
I’m so glad you survived and I’m so sorry for the victims and everyone involved
Thanks...yeah it's awful. I remember when they first started it my daughter was little and she came home from school and tried to explain to me what happened...the school didn't even notify the parents. I was so pissed...I'm a teacher and one who speaks up so I had no problem saying something...of course, that didn't change a thing. The active shooter drills are called "lockdown drills"....we do two of those a year as well as two fire drills and two earthquake drills....this is California. So that's 6 drills a year! Just this year they changed the procedure for the lockdown drills....for years all the kids had to go hunker down under a part of the classroom that had a red dot on the ceiling above it and stay quiet for 10 mins...let me tell you how hard this is to do with second graders (7 year olds). Now they are teaching the kids about 4 different scenarios they need to choose from in terms of how to get safety based on where they think the shooter might be or where they her shooting sounds coming from. It's disgusting. Kids shouldn't have to visualize these kinds of scenarios and live with that kind of fear...and have it shoved in their faces like that. The chances of having an active shooter are slim to none ....there are thousands of schools in this country and maybe 20-25...if that...school shootings since the late 90's w/ Columbine....it's hardly worth scaring all these kids for. The government likes to keep us all I'm a state of fear...it's by design...we are easier to control that way with their fear porn...it's bad here but all these globalist leaders do this. The state of the US has nothing to do with what this country is supposed to represent. It sickens and saddens me. A lot going on in the UK as well that is not good either. My mother was half British and I was close with my British grandmother...so I like to keep track of what's going on over there...across the pond as they say! Well take care and I would say Happy Thanksgiving except that you all don't celebrate it! LOL! @@alisonwilson9749
Thank you, as someone studying psychology and as someone who suffered a complicated traumatic loss within my immediate family, you represent a compassionate view regarding the topic unlike others who feel they have the right to tell others how to deal with their grief that they will fortunately never have to understand. After I suffered from my loss I watched her TedTalk and it helped me immensely so for people who are saying she doesn’t have a right to talk about her experience, it’s completely dismissing the traumatic grief one experiences, and her tedtalk can help people deal with their losses.
I appreciate your psychological knowledge and compassion, others who are discussing this issue clearly lack it.
Bravo Dr Grande! You are so empathetic and understanding. I feel terrible for this mother and you sympathetically explained her behavior! She needs our prayers not our admonishment.
Even though I have never been to Colorado; if I was in the area and unexpectedly crossed paths with Sue Klebold, I would feel torn between introducing myself and thanking her for writing her book as well as telling her story and simply leaving her alone.
Mrs Klebold’s attempt to explain/understand her son’s actions and motivations in view of the public was uncharted territory. I cannot recall the parent of any murders trying to so publicly explain their situation. That her attempt was misunderstood is not surprising. I wish her family healing.
I can definitely empathize with her. It’s really easy for most people to paint someone in her position through a very black-and-white lens, but the reality is *very* gray - that’s harder to conceptualize for most people, but what’s easy isn’t always reality. I think it’s admirable of her to be telling her story and to talk about the “why” and the “how can this be prevented”?
I thoughit was pretty common. Jeffery Dahmers Dad wrote a book about being the parent of a serial k1ller and does public speaking tours. The Mom of the Watts family murder will talk about her son being a killer and how much pain she's in, to anyone who will listen, but she is pushing to get him set free. Then theres another parent of a school sh00ter that does public speaking tour's, I can't remember which one because there are quite a few. If you do a Google search of parents of serial k1lers and books, it should pull up more parent's talking about their k1ller children and what it's like being a parent of one.
I think it is the most normal thing in the world trying to understand the unfathomable
And writing about it is both cathartic and healing,
Who wouldn’t understand that?
@@yorkierussell9255 You can empathize with a mother of a mass shooter who spanned plenty of copycats and led to the terrorization of American schools and who has taken zero accountability? Are you serious?
@@Celisar1 You're missing the point. There's a class of books profitting off of their own murder spree or their children's murder spree. The courts have banned such publications and profiting. Look up Kouri Richins and her book “Are You With Me?" after she murdered her husband and tried to play it off. She's literally the mother of a mass shooter that has spanned further copycats of mas shooters that terrorize American schools to this day.
Don’t confuse having a “good family” with having a good financial support.
THIS.
I've seen SEVERAL CZcams mini docs about teen killers and it's very consistent that the narrators will say that they come from good households and touch very briefly on all of the abuse that the kids allege to have gone through. It's a little weirder for an actual psychologist to do this, you'd think Todd would know better.
@@LUM-kb2rl I’m not going to be to harsh on Todd because he is human but I definitely came to the same conclusions as you. I actually had to replay that part to make sure I heard him correctly.
No such thing as a "good" family. No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.
@@polarbearsrus6980Given that Sue's other son had a huge substance abuse problem, there was likely something going on here that she doesn't want to acknowledge.
This is a most compassionate and meaningful analysis of an unfathomable tragedy. It was balanced and well reasoned.
That was a very graceful analysis...I believe Sue serves as a reminder to all parents - Be as involved as you can be with your children on a deeply personal level. This is hard enough and gets harder once your children reach adolescence - BUT, I believe it is very hard for someone to truly hide things from you when you have a genuinely intimate relationship with them...I mean, many parents neglect their children, at least emotionally to a degree- We are often too absorbed with our own B.S. (marriage, work, bills, social-life, other children etc) to REALLY be there like we should be...This can have disastrous consequences.
Sue had a lot to deal with. I can’t imagine how she felt. Going public puts her out there for scrutiny. I would not have the strength for that. Thank you Dr. Grande for your look into this.
The police deserve much of the blame. Even if Dylan's parents had reported him, would they have done anything? They didn't do anything about Eric despite endless reports.
No, they wouldn't have done anything. The most that would happen is they would end up in a psych ward for maybe 2 days. But if they aren't suicidal or admit to homicidal tendencies, they might not even be there for 2 days.
Cops often don't do anything until after the fact.
@kelb6073 there is no point in applying common sense, this comment section is a madhouse.
Do what exactly? You can't lock people up for crimes you think they MIGHT commit someday. This isn't the Minority Report. Tom Cruise isn't going to fast-rope in from a helicopter to arrest a potential mass shooter. What planet do you people live on? 😂
That's the worst part about it, truly. I thought the whole meta of
"So no one could have known about crazy shooter?"
"Well....sure we were warned 27 separate times, and by 27 different sources, but there was nothing we could do."
"Nothing?"
"We were this close to catching them in time."
I thought that meta was a fairly recent phenomenon, but now I'm thinking it was always the meta from the very beginning.
In the greater narrative, generally Columbine started the trend and started the META. If so, then the failure of law enforcement and the school officials was founded as the base level of how these incidents are supposed to work.
Sue is a useful idiot narcissist who doesn't want to admit to any responsibility or accountability for her own failures to do anything to stop her kid from committing atrocities. There's possibly a legal aspect to it, to a small extent, since admitting fault could be used against her...but it's probably mostly just narcissism. She's a useful idiot for the sake of the gun grabbers and the disarming agenda.
If you take her at her word, the police at their word, the fbi at their word, the school officials at their word, then gun grabbing and confiscation of firearms is the only possible safety measure to prevent this tragedy from happening again.
Because the narrative is "it's impossible to know who could or would do this. It could be literally anyone anywhere at anytime. It could be your friend, your coworker, your pastor, your lover, your spouse, it could be your own child. And you will never know and can never know until it's too late! You have no responsibility and no accountability to protect or prevent this. In fact, you literally cannot. It is factually impossible. We can't either. All the kings horses and all the kings men, right now, still can't stop it from happening again. Which is why the king needs to raise your taxes so he can have more horses and more men, and why you need to surrender your arms to him, for your own safety and the safety of the rest of your village. Trust the king and the kings horses and the kings men to save you, although they have no actual factual duty or obligation to do so when the Vikings are attacking, as was made so shining and crystal clear in the village of Uvalde. But go ahead and pay the kings horses new higher tax for more horses and more men and surrender your arms, this time it will probably be different. Maybe. The king is under no obligation and makes no express guarantees. His horses and his men will definitely be there after the carnage to note the official death count and assess the loss of tax revenue, so as to properly adjust the increase on the remaining villagers who managed to survive the Vikings attack. Remember, Sue Klebold said you can't know a viking attack is ever coming, even when they're in your backyard singing SPAM SPAM SPAM LOVELY SPAM"
META meaning self-referencing? You are making some important points. The reason that I'm asking is so that I can truly understand what the META reference means/ what its definition is. I am very much so against taking away the rights of law abiding firearms owners because others break the law. Your insight is a critically helpful support of law abiding firearms owners. I do also feel, however, that the words that you use against this woman, name-calling and such, chew away and work against your very important arguments.
I think this is a very accurate and balanced take on this mother. As a mother myself, I have reflected on my own parenting and the unmet needs of my now grown children. While nothing to the extent of Columbine happened in my family, I can see in hindsight that there were things I should have noticed and actions I should have taken to help my children at different times. Much like Sue Klebold I was dealing with financial and marital issues. I thought I was a pretty hands on mom, but I now reflect on this and see I was not there for my children at times because I wanted to “hope for the best”, as I did not have the energy to put into their problems. My kids are ok, but I do think they had some pain and fallout due to my distractions and putting my head in the sand. I feel compassion for everyone in this situation, including Sue Klebold. It probably could have been me, given other circumstances.
Sue Klebolt has been the only parent to come forward, and show remorse as well responsibility. Eric’s parent have never come forward or apologized for their son’s actions
Agreed. I am an astrologer and in the book IDENTIFYING PLANETARY TRIGGERS, the author only calculates the charts and analysis for Eric Harris, the leader and initiator. The conclusion was that Dylan was a follower, so much so that his chart and analysis were not even printed in the book.
@spike16965 why should they apologize?
This will never leave my mind. We lived a mile from the school, my children were 6 and 9. It changed us all. I cannot blame Sue. Everyone wants to have someone to blame when horrific things happen. I think it’s better to take care of our own mental health and try to live as best we can. I pray everyday for those innocent children who lost their lives and their families.
My sister in laws was a first responder
❤️❤️❤️
Crying. 😭 Yes. Thank you for saying this.
*EVERY DAY
This is one of your most thoughtful and compassionate reviews.
I believe most families in the world have been shocked by a loved one's behavior.
We can never know what someone we love is capable of.
I cannot blame the parents of these 2 boys. They were as shocked as we were.
I'd be interested to know how her other son is doing.
So true.
He’s a drug addict who doesn’t have a relationship with her. Great record she’s got there! None of this could POSSIBLY be her fault though right?!
any thoughts on the Dad or is it all on her = just asking@@allisoncastle
@@allisoncastle Just curious, are you even a mother yourself? If so, are they teenagers or adults?
@@allisoncastle can you imagine being the Brother of a mass murderer and having to live with that? Could easily drive someone to addiction. My sister and I were raised in the same household by the same parents. She drank, smoked and did almost every drug imaginable for over 30 years. I've never been drunk or high. Can parents influence their kids behavior? Absolutely, but ultimately the behavior is the personal responsibility of the person performing it. That family was ripped apart by 1 persons actions and decisions.
I want to give her some damn grace. I couldn’t imagine having a child commit such a horrific crime. We’re not in her shoes and how she copes/dealing with an unimaginable situation. Also, I definitely recommend the film, “We need to talk about Kevin” as it discusses HOW society treats parents of mass murders. It was eye opening.
"We Need to Talk About Kevin" (both the book and its subsequent film adaptation starring Tilda Swinton) was at least partially inspired by the tragedy at Columbine High School. I can't believe I'm saying this; but I think Tilda Swinton could portray Sue Klebold in a biopic.
I agree the movie is excellent but grab to book. Much better.
The reason why people criticize her is cause she has constantly portrayed her self as a victim, when there’s a lot of evidence that she just chose to ignore the evidence. She can’t be blamed for not noticing the mental health signs, but she totally chose to ignore the warnings about Eric, and allowed her son to hang out with a known criminal and aggressive person. She conveniently leaves out that part, which could be used to warn other parents. I don’t recall correctly but I think the parents of a friend Dylan had told Sue about the website, which she also ignored
We live in a culture in which every clown declares with certainty that they'd be part of the resistance in Hitler's Germany. Such people not only insist they'd handle her situation perfectly. They also believe that their sheer magnificence means they are 100% prevented from ever being in that situation and should, therefore, not have to imagine what they'd do. They can decide a priori that whatever she does is wrong whereas whatever *they* would do would warrant them a medal.
@@somexp12Thank you for making me find out what "a priori" means. 🙂
I grew up to a single mom and three older brothers. We fought all the time up to including fist fighting. We's get angry and have fits. It's called testosterone. You can't jump to a conclusion someone is going to light up a school because his mother pushes him into a fridge and he flies into a temper tandrum.
Testosterone is a hell of a thing and lead to great productivity if controlled or be destructive if not.
I survived murder-suicide attempts by my caregiver when I was a child--- Sue's TED Talk was one of the pieces that allowed me to not only understand what happened to me, but also forgive the unforgivable to be able to let it go and heal. There's a lot of value in her words and feelings, and I'm thankful she stepped up and spoke her reality.
How much control do parents really have over 17- or 18-year-olds? Sometimes parents can do all the things, most of them right, and their kid has a mind of their own. Fortunately as a parent, I didn’t have to deal with a horrific situation, but wonder what I would have done or could have done, had I been faced with one. I agree it’s uncharted territory for most parents, thankfully.
Yeah, I don't think she could have stopped him seeing his best friend. He would have seen him behind her back. He was about 17. I don't know how much control a parent could really have over a kid that age.
@@aisoconcranberriesu2as exactly.
What normal parent would ever suspect that their kid would do this?
Yes, it seems these parents were ill with ignorance.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver
You didn't understand the comment, parents would never expect their kids to commit such an act, when you're raising a teenager, you're not always with him, you don't know what's going on in his head, think about the worst thing you've ever done in your life. Do you blame your parents for it?
Blaming parents is what inquisitors do, and inquisitors are cowards.
@@alexmajax Parents are responsible for their children's mental health, yes, same as they are responsible for their children's bodily health.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver
You can't always detect mental health problems, broken people can act fine, some people are very good at hiding their emotions.
@@alexmajax Perhaps mental health checkups should be the norm along with bodily heath checkups. A doctor might have figured out a teenager was amassing arms and planning a massacre.
I've watched this TED Talk, and I thank you for bringing in some historical context to the subject. America, at the time of the Columbine massacre, wasn't accustomed to the almost daily mass shootings, as we've since sadly become. Ms. Klebold has stated her feelings of responsibility and guilt about as honestly as I believe most would, given the situation. I can't begin to imagine the violent loss of a child, and Sue Klebold must live with both that grief and horror, as well as with the guilt of being the mother of a son who took so many other children's lives. Was she a 'perfect mother'? Of course not. But, I've not heard or read anything she's related that appears as if she's avoiding any responsibility. I believe she's been honest about her feelings, and courageous in speaking so publicly about the worst nightmare a parent could imagine.
Sue Klebold gives us insight, from a perpetrator's family, where we rarely hear it. It's important for us to read and hear from this point of view. I can't imagine being in her shoes and not being able to mourn as others mourn, and to carry this until you die. Klebold and Harris ruined so many lives. If only things had turned out differently. The devastation seeps into infinite corners of the community and the world. Since Columbine, there have been over 300 fatal school shootings. Sue can be part of the conversation that works towards help and towards a solution.
ya she gives us a great example of what not to do
At least she didn't run away and hide.. the money she made from her book she donated all of the money she made
The rate of multi homicides in the US is horrendous. There are things that could be done to limit this - gun control for instance, but 'the right to gun ownership' is such a politically charged issue in the US.
Best analysis I've heard on this topic. Very fair. I think before the days when these shootings were more common, it is fair to say that no parent would be able to realize the gravity of the warning signs. Very few troublemakers (the kids who are arrested as teens) go on to commit murder, let alone mass shootings. Now, ( partly because of Sue's conversations and writings) we actually try to recognize warning signs in our children. Red flags are more often recognized.
We’ll done Dr Grande . You’re point of view is unbiased and compassionate to all at the same time .
Wow that was very interesting. I went to Columbine High School. I graduated in 1996 I knew Dylan and Eric a little bit as they were freshmen when I was a senior. I was pretty good friends with Paul and kind of knew mark, the guys mainly responsible for getting them their guns. I think everything you said was very well put. I was 22 when the shooting happened and I had felt even then sorry for their parents. I had just became a new mother at the time but I believe if it had happened when I was there when they were freshmen I still believe I would feel bad for their parents. I remember I was angry at Eric and Dylan but I felt bad for the people that knew them and lost friends that they were responsible for killing and they also lost them. I really do admire your last statement, there is a lot of power in how you said that in a way because of all the guilt Sue was feeling that Dylan did Kill them. I think the main reason why I would feel sorry for them even if I wasn't becoming a parent when the tragedy happened is because they did lose their children and they had to deal with the fact that their children were also responsible for all the horror and tragedy our poor School endured. If I ever met Sue in person I would give her a hug and pray for her and tell her I'm very sorry and I would thank her for coming out publicly and doing what she did. I will say it always gets to me what Eric had told Brooks right before they started, and Dylan had told his friend, I believe his name was John Savage, to run from the library. So it's like damn there was something in both of them that was like I want these people to live. I don't mean that in a negative way I am glad nothing happened to Brooks and John. It's like why couldn't they have had that compassion take over them completely and have nothing done to anyone 😢
I think it was just another power play from them. They had the power to let them live too, knowing that they didn't die. There's nothing like survivors remorse.
can u confirm that there was bullying at columbine hs? people are saying that it was just “the normal amount” or that dylan and eric were the bullies actually. would love to know the perspective of someone who went there
Good and nuanced summary of this sad story. I think Sue is brave to go out and address the situation. It’s not uncommon for teenagers to have problems and get themselves into trouble. However it’s incredibly rare that they go from offenses like minor theft to mass murder. If the boys were indeed psychopaths, the parents didn’t have much of a chance to correct them.
I feel very bad for the parents of the killers. They lost children too, they have to live with what their children did and think about how they failed to prevent it, and they were not allowed to grieve without harsh criticism.
Except she never really does that. She's repeatedly claimed that there was nothing she could have done. Despite the fact that she was repeatedly warned of her son's behaviors and that the kid he hung out with the most was a known psycho.
@@vortex_1336😮
really because i feel bad for the parents of the victims.
this woman ignored repeated warning signs and now she feigns ignorance, i have no respect for her or her story.
@@fantasea114You can feel bad for both.
I think she's great & caring for stepping up to tell her story. We all can learn from the mistakes and discuss what went wrong. The other parent that hid in a box are the bad ones. Not the brave mom who came out alone to face a mean, judgemental world. Of course parents won't blame their children. They normally blame theirself and make excuses up for the kids. I'm not saying that's what we should do, it's just what most parents do.
Thank you for this unbiased opinion. I understand people who resent her but as you rightly say , her son buried the members of his family alive.Also it is true she missed some signs but I also believe that teenagers can be masters of dissimulation. This is what parents who lose their teens to suicide often say.
I clicked on this video to see if “the psychologist” would typically blame the mother, as Freud would. Things are always more complicated than they seem. Love Dr. Grande’s analysis.
I read her book a few years ago. What has still to this day stood out the most for me and what I will never forget from it is the beginning part where she is describing Dylan as a little kid. She fawns over how he was the kind of kid who ".....would be running around a restaurant ending up bumping into a waitress causing her to drop a whole tray of food..." as if this was a normal quirky or a charming behavior that a precious little kid would do? That was all I had to know to realize how clueless and careless of a parent she had been at raising that boy. Her oldest son also had issues with finding direction in his life. Thank you for covering this topic, Dr. Grande!
Very interesting. See any argument online about kid behaviors in restaurants and oh the strong feelings and hate. People are tired of parents not paying attention to their kids. As you rightly point out simple things like this can lead to a lifetime of being lost.
Running into a waitress? Shows the entitlement, doesn't it? And teaches the children the same attitude. The "little people" are just there to be made fun of, and they're of no account. Shows the lack of character and fellow feeling. Disgusting, really.
My god that comment made me angry!!!! I hate that mentality in parents!
@@gaiaiulia she described him as basically being the kind of rambunctious kid who would be running around a restaurant causing him to accidentally run into a waitress who was carrying a full tray of food. And, yes and I agree - that's behavior that she should've taught as being unmannered, reckless, and inconsiderate.
@@gaiaiulia I suspect one of Dylan's main problems is that he was becoming, in a sense, one of the 'little people," himself. He was not beautiful, not athletic, not especially knowledgeable or smart or hard working. Worst of all, and because of his flaws, he wasn't really valued much by anyone -- except maybe Eric Harris... Imagine peaking as a person when you're 9 or 10, and slowly losing the magic gift of entitlement and a great future ahead. All it takes then for rage to be kindled is for other people to seem to be partly to blame: Smarter people. Prettier people. Arrogant people. People who don't care if you live or die. If the response to this rage is "I'll show them!" then it's a touchy situation. Properly channeled, the rage could do some good. But here, of course, it wasn't.
I know she is the one who has gone public, and left herself open to criticism, but the kid also had a father in the home. If there was bad parenting and signs were missed, the father is just as responsible. The fact he hasn't written about it doesn't absolve him from his responsibility.
You don't have to *write a book* in order to feel remorse or accept responsibility in this situation. His wife decided to go public instead of dealing with it privately. No wonder they divorced.
@@ekl2947 I think a lot more than bad parenting is to blame as well. However, most of the comments here and to other reports I've seen blame her directly and seldom, if ever, mention the father. If there were missed signs, for example, he is equally as culpable as her.
Her and the husband both must have smelt the cigarettes and noticed the vodka drinking. Let alone seen the cutting on the arms.
@@thesecondCZcams What? A young adult having a cigarette or a drink of alcohol is a red flag that they may become a mass killer.! I find the American puritan attitude so strange in a country which has a mass of major issues, of which cigarettes and booze are minor players.
So much for all the so-called conservatives screaming that "a father in the home" is the solution to all society's problems.I don't know anything one way or the other about Mr.Klebold,but just as often,the father IS the problem.
shes human! the people criticizing her are just the holier than thou people who cant come close to imagining going through this. grace is needed sometimes. once again im very impressed with your thoughtful and sympathetic view of the situation. anyone who acts like they know what they'd do are lying to themselves. you cant comprehend a situation like that happening
Or they don't want the face the fact that it could happen to them.
I’m a parent. I’M RESPONSIBLE FOR MY CHILDS BEHAVIOR.
***To a certain degree.
I do appreciate her coming forward as no others did. I remember being enraged hearing the Robb Elementary perpetrator’s mother defend her son immediately, that sure was insensitive. So while Sue is missing the mark a bit she certainly tried to provide the victims some sort of information. Compared to the Harris’ who just moved away silently I’d say she at least did better than them.
Why do you believe you're entitled to anything from the Harris family? Personally I think Klebold is trying to shape the narrative so as to diminish the part her son had in it.
I simply cannot imagine dealing with such a horrific tragedy as a parent.
She created the tragedy, she is the monster
She abused him
@@jakethepillowsnake5302it was WAY different back then. Saying she is solely responsible for his actions is ridiculous
@@evilzarmy1that is not fair at all
I can't imagine dealing with such a horrific tragedy of a mother.
I read Dave Cullen's book on Columbine and thought that it was quite good. Though I have not read this book by Sue Klebold, an extremely intelligent friend whose opinion I respect did read it and referred to it as a work of fiction. That brought to mind for me the contrast betwixt two of the Matt Shepard books. First, I read the one by Stephen Jimenez, and it was a well-researched work of professional journalism, the type that is rarely seen nowadays. Then, I read Judy Shepard's book, and it was clear to me, assuming that she even wrote it, that it, too, was a work of fiction. I would definitely recommend the Cullen book on Columbine, as well as reading first the Jimenez book and, then, the Shepard book on that murder to anyone who is interested in these tragic events and the manner in which they are covered by the media.
I agree with Dr. Grande's analysis regarding Sue Klebold. One of the worst nightmares for a parent is their child ending up being a murderer especially if it involves shooting up a school. I feel as though she doesn't want to admit to how troubled Dylan really was prior to Columbine. It could be the reason why she said he has killed less people than his friend Eric. It doesn't make it right by any means. Dylan had mental health issues that were never addressed. He even wrote a paper about a guy dressed in a trench coat shooting up a school. This could've been prevented if he and Eric had intervention. Sue and her ex husband definitely missed warning signs and maybe Dylan was good at hiding his true feelings. It's anyone's guess at this point.
Sue is an angel compared to the mom of the Sandy Hook shooter. She KNEW her son was on the spectrum, depressed and she bought him guns. Also Crimo, the parade shooter's father-, and Ethan Crumbley's parents. They knew their sons had issues and bought guns anyway.
Exactly. I often think many of the parents of school shooters should also be charged because they're near on complicit. Sue was not even close to what many of those other parents have been.
Yes.
Crimo?
On the topic of Sandy Hook, what was the motive for that shooting? I've seen a differing explanations, but none of them succinctly explain it.
Oh, please. She knew, and did nothing.
Our society is quick to scapegoat anyone with ties to these type of crimes.
The lack of empathy towards this woman concerns me.
@@KarisPigNose I concur wholeheartedly
Anyone? She was his MOTHER!
@@KarisPigNosewhy does she deserve it for raising a mass murderer?
@nhmooytis7058 what would you suggest she should have done?
Is shoving your kid against the fridge still considered normal parenting? Never mind body autonomy. As a parent, you get to do things you should never be allowed to do.
I think this was a really good and fair analysis. Honestly, what parent is going to think their child is capable of such evil.
Exactly! The recent hatred she’s been getting really bothers me. It’s like Dr. Grande mentioned in the video-there’s no “right way” to handle the horrible situation she found herself in. There’s not a handbook for how to behave after your son commits an atrocious act of violence. I’ve always thought she was well-intentioned in speaking out but that retrospect isn’t quite 20/20 for her. I don’t think she should be vilified for that. It’s very easy for people to judge as outsiders. But we will (thankfully) probably never be able to fully understand how she feels.
@@lilpixie1985 She is garbage, and she's spent her whole life since trying to cover up and whitewash her failings.
I might be alone in this, but I was always suspicious of the parents just magically not knowing what these two were up to, they had weapons and ammunition clearly visible in the house. Like come on lady, you really expect me to believe that?
It’s easier to see everything afterwards, don’t you think
@@pumpkinfield100- Maybe if the circumstances were a little less obvious, but I’ve always felt there’s just something strange about everything leading up to the Colombine shooting and the parents being otherwise oblivious. They really suspected nothing? At all? I don’t know, there’s just a feeling I can’t shake, never could.
No one wants to believe their kid is a killer.
True but here there was a process, an escalation she didn't want to see
My daughter is engaged to a man who has a 13 year old exhibiting many of Dylan's mental health issues. Thankfully they don't all live together. They have sought treatment everywhere. He spent 30 days at a mental health facility 1,200 miles away because nothing else was available . He should have stayed longer but insurance would not approve it and he figured out if he was violent, the facility would kick him out. He returned home and luckily they found a semi-residential program. He graduated from that program. He is in individual and family counseling. There is nothing else available for treatment of this kid!! He is ticking dynamite, scary situation and seemingly no more options!
That’s weird. In my experience with mental health facilities, they admit you if you think of hurting someone and isolate you (still in the facility) if you try to hurt someone. I’ve been in the hospital while there were isolated patients. I even went to a hospital with big heavy chairs weighed down by sand so that they can’t be thrown. One hospital banned bras and floss as potential weapons. All of them only had pens with the hard plastic case removed (which I like to call wobble pens) because it’s again a potential weapon.
This system you speak of sounds utterly backwards. 😓
The saddest part of the tragedy was it was a blame game from the start (Parents, video games, music, politics etc). Its doubtful the killers had this intention but it made society as a whole stare at itself for what it was - far from perfect. I was just 20 minutes north of Littleton, in 2nd grade recess. Came back to class and my teacher told us what was happening, sobbing. Then in afterschool YMCA counselors were crying and explaining what they knew and how we shouldn't be afraid. Looking back it was perhaps a sign that told adults, society may be in far worse shape than we thought. Good analysis, Dr. Grande!
As a parent of two children myself, I can tell you that many parents are often in denial when it come to their kids’ shortcomings, and their inner dark side. This also happens with my oldest brother and uncle (my mother’s youngest brother), whom turned out to be horrible individuals.
@ampow6373 ummm no. Having children is not selfish. What an out if touch, awful thing to say. Not being an involved parent is selfish.
@@darlingdeb7010 I certainly do agree with you. Having children and raising them is certainly not selfish, since it take an exuberant amount of hard work. When we raise our children and teach them how to reason and I still them a moral compass and work ethic we not only do our children a favour, but also contribute greatly to the society we live with in.
@sylviaowega3839 YESSSSSSS!!! Thank you for being a wonderful parent that gets it ❤️❤️.
@@darlingdeb7010I try … , -but thanks! 😊
I think your insight is spot on. I saw her Ted Talk, and she sppeared very remorseful and deeply troubled by the signs she missed. She deflects slightly by presuming that anyone would have missed the signs, as well. She's seemingly consistent in her views and statements, and much of it I found helpful. I think that many parents, myself included, are petrified that we'll miss something important, that our kids are hiding some of their thoughts and feelings, to their detriment and those around them. It does happen, and somewhat often, even though the things kids hide aren't usually so extreme. It happened to me, too. I thought we all had open dialogue, and that they could come to me for any reason, when the truth was they did, but not for everything, which threw me off. My oldest explained it later that she knew I wouldn't approve of everything she was doing, and she didn't want to disappoint me. The horrible truth is, we can do a lot of things right, but we can't always prevent things from going wrong. I'm heartbroken for the families who no longer have their children, and that includes Sue, who, as you so eloquently stated, is not allowed to Love her son.
This woman is an early member of a club that no one wants to belong to, but whose membership has grown dramatically since she was initiated. I applaud her for her courage to participate in the dialogue. She has such valuable perspective, especially in working with people like former FBI agent Jonny Grusing, who has shifted his focus to school resource development, studying the pathway to violence in hopes of learning to better identify and diffuse these tragedies before they happen.
I think a significant part of missing the warning signs was a lack of imagination. Before mass school murders became an American past time, I am not sure anyone would have seen this horrendous crime coming.
Being a parent is hard, especially if one is working outside the home. Even if Sue and her husband had forbidden Dylan from spending time with Eric after their arrest, Dylan may have chosen to do so in secret. IMO, Sue deserves credit for having the COURAGE to speak publicly about the terrible tragedy, her son, her family, and her own role as Dylan's mother. None of the other three parents did that. None of us are perfect. She has my sympathy.
Absolutely! It's terrible feeling like you spend almost every waking hour at work and are not around for your child as much as you'd like to be. It's not as if we all have a choice, and can leave you feeling guilty, tired, sad, etc.
I can't even imagine what she's had to come to terms with.
Agreed. I think it is for every individual parent to decide whether they want and are able to speak about such a tragedy, but that she chose to do it, opening herself to endless criticism from people who don't know how to spell empathy, is commendable. And the proceeds go to charity, as they should.
I remember the parents who would ban their kids from hanging out with other kids - it wasn't possible! And it even made the bond stronger with some of them. People expect _mothers_ to be all powerful while ignoring the fact that they're also told not to be over-bearing and to respect the kids' privacy. And they often forget entirely about the fathers' influence.
One person whose mother did take a lot of control over her social life has turned into a raving narcissist. The fact is that there is no guarranteed formula for parenting because each family is unique. Parenting is an art rather than a science. When there is a tragedy like a school mass shooting, people want there to be a strong, definite and simple solution but there isn't one... except banning guns. That works but the US won't do it.
@@amattes1960 Well said 👍
"My son killed fewer people than the other kid"...I think we've heard enough from Sue.
I'm sure she regrets saying that. It's stupid. But she's still a mother who lost her child due to his own deranged behavior. If thinking that soothes her, more power to her. It changes nothing.
@@KarisPigNosecool, so you're delusional too. Sympathy for the devil
Well we know her line of thoughts and logic lead 😢
…where did she say that?
You are brilliant. Presented all sides fairly. Tough case. She tried. None of us are perfect.
Give that answer to the 13 groups of parents see where that will get ya
I think it was brave of her to step forward and ask and address these difficult questions- she psychologically didn’t try to frame it as something else in her Ted Talk. She asked for understanding and never stopped acknowledging the pain her son caused and the victims.
This poor woman has to drag this around with her for the rest of her life, I cannot begin to imagine the burden this must be on her.
It's too painful for me to imagine. I wouldn't want to live. I hope she has a modicum of happiness in her life. She's truly existing in a living hell.
Too bad she and her husband, not only her, weren’t so dismissive of his behavior before the murders. There was a lot of privilege in her behavior.
So much a burden that she goes on a money-making speaking junket to make herself feel better, I guess.
@@kuroneko7022 tell us what about her behavior was privileged?
I've seen a lot of conversation about her on CZcams lately but it's mostly from people that weren't old enough to have to remember Columbine. I was in college when it happen and it was a shock to everybody. Nobody ever thought this could happen. It had never happened before. It was a completely new thing. To have even thought that your child might do this was Insane. I don't think that people that are around now that are younger realize that we didn't have a concept of this when it happened beause now it happens every week and you just wait to hear about it. To think that your child no matter what their issues are might go and do this, wasn't even a thought in anybody's head. I knew tons of people who made pipe bombs. It was something gen X. did all the time. We weren't exactly watched. We did all kinds of things but no had done this. Fist fight you know but no one came up with a plan to do a mass shooting. I do not think people understand how unbelievable this act was at the time that it happened. Plus I don't think people understand that at the time mental health was not discussed at all. My mother was bipolar and they didn't even talk about it at the time. There were no medications that really work for her until later in her life. Mental health was not an issue because it was not talked about. So to judge her actions back then from a lens from today I don't think is fair. I also think her coming out and talking about it and trying to telling people her story and the signs to look for and what she went through and what she saw is important. Because what parents thinks that their child can do thson'
Mental illness runs in my family and I was raised in this. I myself came from a very dysfunctional family and also had mental health issues. To be honest I even kept a bottle of pills in a drawer in case I needed an out. The only help I ever got was once a school consulor came to my house with dessert and told me that I needed to learn to bend like a willow in the wind. I still have no clue what this means. I don't know how many times I was told something was a phase, or a few months from now you won't feel this way. There was no real help for anybody. Since then I have seen a lot of my friends die because of these issues. We didn't get help back then. I was actually lucky I had a mother who didn't candy coat anything and told us everything that she had gone through and all her symptoms. She also told us she was there for us and that she would stand up for us. I knew I could talk to her and that got me through. For this reason I've made sure that my 5 sons have always known about mental health and that I was here to talk no matter what they had to say. Each 1 of them has come to me at different times with issues that we have gotten help for. I think everyone in their lives comes to these points but not everyone is taught they have someone there for them or how to take care of it. I hope the trend of discussing these topics and being there for each other continues. I see it in my sons and their friends and I'm happy that things have changed for them.
It happens every week now?
It had happened before but the numbers were lower
I still remember exactly where I was when it happened, and the utter shock. A turning point.
@@mayhewfisher62 Same for me. Now these things happen all the time. When Columbine happened, it was a shock to all of us. I was in my mid-twenties.
@@colleenwelch2330My first awareness of school shootings was the Westside Middle School shooting in Arkansas. I was going on 14.
Wait a minute, Dylan had 2 parents. Did he also fail to see his son's problems?
Dr. Grande, Why did you say anything about Dylan's father?
Didn't he miss warning signs as well?
I meant to say NOT say anything.
@@keithbocock1321 One parent has published a book, had a TED talk and other speaking engagements. The other parent...............has just stayed quiet. Sure he missed the same signs. He bears culpability in the recipe of this crime. However like what is there to analyze about him? We know basically nothing. Same with the Harris'. Yes undoubtable mistakes were made but we don't have a back drop to discuss anything beyond "Your son killed people, this probably reflects on your parenting decisions or things you missed" and that's the conversation. There's nothing further to do.
Well given that his father is not the one going around doing speaking tours about how it wasn’t his fault, I don’t think that’s especially relevant, is it?
Mr. Klebold was a lousy parent as well, but little ole' Sue wanted the limelight, so people blame her more. I should be noted that both Mr. Klebold and Byron (the older son) begged Sue not to go through with the book because of the obvious negativity she was going to receive, but she did anyway so she could shift blame to others.
What is a monster?
Her child was a human. He was a very disturbed young human, but still human.
Some of the survivors and even parents have taken their own lives since Columbine. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on their struggles. Thanks Dr. Grande for all your work.
yes, my college roommates were in the Columbine shooting and they were always going home for funerals.
Amen 😭😢
@RachelWrites How incredibly heartbreaking😢😭 I am so sorry the victims and their families. And also for the survivors. How painful it must be to kove with this trauma.
This whole situation reminds me of the movie adaptation of We Need to Talk About Kevin. Tilda Swinton's performance really captured the grief and isolation that comes with being the mother of a kid who has committed crimes like this, and how society tends to blame the parents, which makes the grief even worse. It's important to point out that Columbine was one of the first mass school shootings in the US to be nationally recognized, and parents and teachers were not on the lookout for signs for that reason. Even when the parents do try to step in, the legal/mental health system fails in many cases and the kids still have easy access to weapons. I don't know if Sue would have succeeded in intervening even if she had noticed the warning signs.
Your point is a very important one. Sadly we know so much more now, but they probably don't publish any cases where a tragedy was prevented, so we don't know if that has ever happened.
That was a sad,sad movie.
The pain Tilda conveys, gut wrenching pain, and how to get through everyday being treated as the enemy, when it was actually the actions of her child.
The book is even more compelling than the movie. Both, though, are very brutal. You are so right. Tilda's performance in the movie is epic.
Because it IS the parents' fault.
On the basic human level no one person is responsible for the actions of another. Some people ARE just born with a certain maliciousness in their hearts/brains. But that Ted Talk, that book, and those interviews she IS responsible for. They are solely to feed her ego, to protect her narcissism, and an attempt to quiet the voice in her head telling her the truth.
People blame the parents because its an easy out and an easy explanation. But her actions have kinda proved them right at least in this case.
I think the truth of this tragedy is that assuming anyone would be a school shooter was so beyond normal human assumptions that no one acted on the “warning signs.” I knew people in school who said things or got arrested. I never assumed they were a shooter and to my knowledge they never did
This is the best of the videos of yours that I have watched so far. It's completely unbiased, which i appreciate. The fact that people were angry at her for focusing on his mental health instead of what she did wrong says a lot. They weren't focusing on the problem, just who to blame (her). The focus should be on the problem and what we can do about it, and his mental health not being addressed WAS a big part of the problem. What is the underlying cause of so many mental health problems in our country, and what can we be doing to address that? That should have been the focus, not what kind of a parent she was. It needs to be a much broader focus so that ALL parents can get the tools they need to better support their kids. As much as mental health has become a buzz word, I'm still not seeing a broad-range education on the causes, as well as actionable tools and supports on a large scale.
Agree completely Dr. G - it would surprise me if Sue didn’t exhibit some clouded judgement towards her son’s actions. I’m certain she thinks she’s doing the best she can do given the past & tragic circumstances.
What would she have to do to redeem herself?
1999 parenting did not include anything about mental health. We are able to retroactively identify problems with Dylan now because we pay attention to them.
theres nothing she can do. parenting has always included mental health, but yes its always easier to critique the past than the present
You say that because you don’t know the context. Dylan’s parents were long aware of his association with the extremely problematic Eric, aware of his many illegal acts, aware of death threats he had issued.
Having lived through 90s parenting and parenthood, if I recall she was a bad parent by 90s standard.
@@carlholland3819 how was the mother responsible for bullying?
She can't redeem herself. She should admit her son was a monster, and just go away.
Sue feels like she has traits that makes me think of my mother, and I stopped talking to my mother to protect my emotional and mental health. One of them is that I don't think that the fridge incident is as isolated as she thinks it is but a sign that the relationship between the two had broken down and the onus was on him to fix it in her eyes. I also think that she was holding onto the young child he was and not embracing and helping the teenager he was becoming, which I can tell you from experience breaks a relationship in the worst possible way, even if the child doesn't go on to be a killer.
I sympathise with the element of having to navigate the cocktail of grief of losing a child and navigating the guilt of knowing he took lives and scarred many for life, but I feel like if she dug deep into her time with her son, looked at what she could have done better, and shared it in her book and Ted talk, she would have gotten a much better response than she did.
I don't know that i would have been able to handle a child like this. Blessings to all who have struggled with these children and coming out the other end sane. ❤️🙏
Having been a school counselor in Littleton Public Schools at the time of the Columbine Shooting, I would challenge one statement, and that is that because this was over 20 years ago, and awareness and education has grown and changed dramatically in that time, I don't know that "with the same information as Sue, most other people would have acted on it". A lot more of that behavior went 'under the radar' and unaddressed. That was the largest and most dramatic school shooting up to that point in history. No one could imagine such a thing. We have grown immensely in our understanding in the time since then, but then, it could have happened to others as well. Parents often have no idea what to do, and supports systems are inadequate at best, but often not even available. Of course I wish she would have know and acted. But living through that time in that area, I don't blame her.
Agreed. While I don't agree with a lot of Mrs. Klebold's recent justifications, the one thing I will give her grace on is that, at the time, school shootings were NOT common and the signs were NOT well-known amongst the public. It is easy with hindsight and (unfortunately) many analysis samples to choose from to see the signs now, but in the 90s there was a BIG difference between "worrying your son was going down a bad path with bad friends and committing property crimes" and "realistically believing he was going to become a psychotic mass shooter at his high school." It just...wasn't on society's radar back then. Should she have gotten intervention for her son and his anti-social behavior regardless? Absolutely. But I just don't think it's fair to say she should have "seen the signs" when her son, unfortunately, was one of the ones who created the mold for this kind of thing.
Thank you. What was also ignored was the bullying that was rampant at Columbine, jocks slamming kids against the walls, while teachers looked the other way. Imagine 4 years of that.
@@mariamatheson5300the shooters were bullies.
@@migsy1nah
I know that while many in Littleton have largely forgiven Sue Klebold as a means trying to move forward and not let their anger drag them down; others still despise Sue and think of her as a monster.
THANK YOU. I thought the video I saw criticizing her the other day was so harsh. Did she make mistakes? Yes. But she’s using her platform as a form of atonement and as a way to educate others. I actually have a deep respect for her- sharing her story knowing how she was going to be opening herself up for ridicule was incredibly brave.
I guess it was brave to present yourself as so unlikable.
I feel like no matter what she said or did, someone would have a problem with it, simply because of who she was the mother of.
@@isabelled.7732 I don't think you give people enough credit, and even then that's not like totally UNreasonable.
Yeah in that time period, acting a little insane as a teen doesn’t automatically mean they’d do that, that was a huge turning point for school shootings…
Can you explain how “without narcissism, survival would not be possible?” I feel like I’m so focused on being the opposite of narcissistic that I can’t function.