Planning Ahead in Commander | EDHRECast 197
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Things don't always go the way you want in EDH, so you have to think ahead and add contingency plans during the deckbuilding stage. Today we're discussing some important categories and specific examples where just a few small deckbuilding decisions can totally save your bacon in Commander.
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I wish there was another like button just for the opening dad jokes😂
They're personally not my jam, but they are so predictable they're easy to skip through, which makes it truly content for everyone!
The pitfall I run into the most is not having ways to protect my key pieces. As brought up, finding that midpoint from running too little to too much interaction is an art I feel like.
Totally is. Like the minimum is 1 for a given effect, because the worst is feeling outclassed because there was nothing you could have drawn to save yourself. Ideally you're either super efficient, flexible, or meshes with the deck's gameplan.
For Wilhelt and the Sakashima’s will, you can also or have all your creatures become a copy of Wilhelt. You’ll have to sac all but one to the legend rule but since none of them have decayed all these Wilhelt copies will see each other die and make 2/2s with decayed. So if you have 5 tokens plus Wilhelt, and cast the Will, here’s what happens: gain control of an opponents creature (you now have 6 creatures plus Wilhelt), they all become copies of Wilhelt, sac the 6 Wilhelts to legend rule, each of your 7 total wilhelts will all see the others die, so 6 wilhelts dying each makes 6 tokens means you end up with one Wilhelt and 36 2/2 decayed
This is exactly where my mind went with this challenge. Would just need a sac outlet and something like a meathook massacre or bastion of remembrance to seal the deal then.
Found this Richard III quote for Joey getting attacked for necromancy:
My conscience hath a thousand several tongues,
And every tongue brings in a several tale,
And every tale condemns me for a villain.
(Richard, Act 5 Scene 3)
I love how fast they think and work around the pun jokes (it's pie this week). I wonder if Matt in particular has experience in improv comedy.
Reminds me of the time my casual Elenda was up against CEDH Kess, Brago and Vial Smasher/Thrasios. I knew the red decks had Underworld Breach and the Brago deck was accelerating their Underworld Breach lines so I immediately tutored for a Callous Bloodmage to exile their entire graveyards not once but twice. Having exiled all their wincons, I just beat them down. It was a good game
**Slow claps**
I sincerely look forward to this podcast all week!
Idk how you guys don't have more subscribers! I honestly think this is the best MTG podcast for Commander. Always love the insights and banter. So good!
I love this podcast. This is probably the best edh content out there. It baffles me that they only have 37k subs. They deserve 10 x that. At least.
"The best way to plan ahead is to never plan at all" - I shall take these words and only these words into consideration from this episode 😂
I'm gonna get a Fell Stinger for my Meren deck. 3 mana draw 2, lose 2, get an XP. I can just draw some cards on endstep If I need to. Thanks Matt
Or you use Sakashimas Will to turn all your Creatures into Wilhelts, turning them into an exponential ammount of decayed zombies.
You have your Commander and 7 other creatures? Steal a Creature, then lose 8 Wilhelts to the legendary rule.
You now controll your Commander + 9*8 = 72 decayed 2/2 zombies.
Of note, Wilhelt only cares about OTHER zombies dying, so unfortunately you can't just do the straight maths like that! (I had a similar thought). Let's assume we end up with 10 total Wilhelts - One of them sees all the other 9 die, and then 9 of them see another 8 Wilhelts die. The end result would be 72 tokens from the dead Wilhelts, plus 9 from the original seeing the other ones dying, totalling 81 Tokens!
If we go with your example of ending up with 9 total Wilhelts, the number would be 64 tokens. Still very much enough to win the game, especially if you're running something like Bastion of Rememberance, but that lesser amount of tokens could be significant!
I really enjoy your podcasts, even if they cost me about $10 per episode. Stop finding cool cards 🤣
Pinpoint removal in Black: Cannibalize. 1 colorless 1 Black, exiles a creature at the "expense" of putting two +1/+1 counters on another creature that player controls.
It's stupidly good to just hand wave away a Blightsteel Colossus forever, and give a minor buff to something inconsequential like a mana dork or token. Plus, it's relatively ancient, so it confers Hipster Cred if that matters
Yes, Matt. Great challenge the stats. I bulk ordered 10 Fell Stingers cause I knew it would be a card I would want in almost every black deck. And it's true. It's a great card and much more versatile than Sign in Blood and with only one black pip, it can sometimes be easier to cast than Sign in Blood.
Try Nights Whisper my favourite mtg art as well, the Fifth Dawn one ;)
2 mana 1 of it black same effect as Sign in Blood
The hour flew by! Love the contents!
As I'm watching this I recognized how poorly I planned my Yusri deck. I've played that deck about 6 times now and about the 3rd have I got the Omniscience effect to go off but due to not planning on it going off I had no way to win and ended up decking myself and losing. Did it again after a couple more games but I had changed some things out to fix that problem so I was able to win the second time
Going over episodes I have missed, for whatever reason, and you guys got me... Dana's,"The best thing about Pi jokes is that they never end." Yup you got me, lol.
So, I love Fell Stinger, I've been playing it since I got my hands on it. As far as Sakashima's Will concern, I was looking for an effect like that for my Volrath deck. I wanted to turn creatures that Volrath uses at tools into a non-legendary version of Volrath himself after I've changed his form into something appealing. Well, turns out there's this thing called Polymorphous Rush which does that at instant speed. It's a strive spell but still pretty awesome.
Yep I've attacked someone for 500 trample in volo but unfortunately they blocked and went to 50 life then won next turn still it felt amazing
Sadly, the amount of interaction a deck can run is often tied to how well it can keep the cards flowing. So you can interact, while still developing your own board. Also aggravating is the lack of 1-2 MV answers in some colors. Like I'm now trying Lightning Axe and debating Burning Hands in Tovolar. Just to have cheap answers to annoying good creatures, like Seedborn muse. (Weight of Spires is an option I missed in prior queries, will need to pay attention if there's enough non basics for some of the targets I'd want to hit, for instance Vorinclex.)
Great vid guys! Thanks for discussing this topic. Lots of great tips!
Great episode guys, love this topic. Please do more!
Great episode! Really enjoyed this and found a few extra cards, thoughts, workarounds that I might want to include!
There is an irrational amount of Pi jokes in this episode.
At least we know the jokes are non repeating.
are*
I find it ins-π-ring
I think most decks I see are short of removal. Unless you're running a deck that you expect will usually have the upper hand, you should expect to need removal to get by. 10 removal isn't too much for most grindier decks, but you rarely see decks with 10 or more pieces. Note, there are plenty of removal options that come with a body, so if your deck cares about bodies, those Rec Sages count as well. I run deck with less, and I regularly run 'sub-optimal' options (I did eventually replace Disenchant in my cEDH with Anguished Unmaking, to deal with Opposition Agent), in part because I don't like using the same cards in all my decks, and I don't like to use too many 'top tier' cards (IE cards I run in competitive decks as optimal choices) in my Casual decks, so I only have 2 EDH decks with Swords in them, and none atm with Path, but in Casual, you might actually prefer a spellshaper (or similar effect) that can provide interaction on a stick, where you can expect longer, grindier games where you might need to remove a large number of mid-sized creatures rather than spot-removing a combo or Stax piece.
Wipes are really good, but I do have decks that neglect the area actively, but they typically either have other ways to pressure the board (IE using Rule of Law makes wipes less important, or a Meren deck can run a ton of forced sac effects the deck can chain together), but I also have decks that run ~5, and are trying to sneak in a few more, typically decks that don't expect to have a solid board presence for whatever reason. Still, it's hard to find dual purpose wipes, so this is a very hard area to run redundant wipes with more oomph, IE there aren't a lot of good bodies that are also a wipe (for obvious reasons I suppose) compared to removal tacked onto bodies. For non-creature wipes, it will again depend on what you're running, if you have +10 artifacts, artifact hate could be an anti-synergy. In Meren, I feel like you mostly should be using creatures as much as possible (I run well over 50 creatures, still trying to fit in a few more tbh), so Bane is pretty neat there, I run Woodfall Primus to do some similar work. My Meren deck is not good at recurring non-creatures though, so that might be why I never bothered with Bane in there, but with 2 Enchantments and 4 Artifacts, it might be worth looking at.
Protecting your board is a real struggle for some decks/colours, and in plenty of pods you wouldn't want to be accused of Stax use, so many of my decks are light on this. It's a bit of the opposite relationship compared to removal, where stronger decks probably need to worry more about this, but in stronger metas, it is kinda viable to just win fast and not worry about it. In Casual, I think a deck either wants to be protecting it's cards or be able to recur the important parts, but it's hard to justify putting too many cards into this area. Grindier games tend to require protection or recursion to avoid falling behind, and that is what Casual is trying to achieve generally.
Graveyard Hate is nice in that you can often find cards that have dual purpose, or that comes attached to a land. I regularly neglect this, but it can definitely save your bacon to run a bit of it, and there is a ton that barely is costing a card. It is deeply sad when someone uses a lot of it and you're trying to run a graveyard deck, but I do run Callous Bloodmage (and Coffin Queen, hate on yards 1 card at a time!) in Meren, the mirror is a rough time without some. I run RiP in cEDH, where I think you probably need that hate a lot more than in Casual, but most decks have some graveyard shenanigans to do.
Small doses of card draw are like marbling with your meat... it can add a ton of enjoyment to the final product, even if it doesn't seem flashy or sound appealing (fat is gross on meat when you're a kid generally). Decks without any are dry, overly-lean meat and gristle, and while they may have nutrients in them (and thus are technically food), they aren't palatable (aren't fun to run). Learn from my mistakes, run some card draw to keep decks smooth, I cannot believe how often I am willing to pay 4 to draw a card off of a bad draw engine, if your deck has access to small draw spells, those are probably more practical.
Free interaction is super-good at higher levels, but I also think people should consider stuff like Grand Abolisher, Malevolent Hermit's Disturbed Backside, Wandering Archaic and Dovescape are all cards I run in my strongest deck to help deal with countermagic by using as few cards as possible to do it. I do have to get something to stick, but tacking an effect like Benevolent Geist's onto a creature is very potent in part because people run way less interaction able to deal with creatures at higher levels. Dovescape in particular should probably see a lot more play, it is a devastating card to any decks not all-in on creatures.
I run 2 'fogs on a stick' in Meren, Spore Frog, which everyone runs, and Dawnstrider, which doesn't see very much play (fortunately!), very much because I know people are going to remember if I force them to sacrifice +2 creatures in a turn, including in a second game, so Meren tends to get swung at a lot. I could run a beefier list, but I like weird combo (Haakon and Demon of Dark Schemes to generate infinite death/etb/storm). Dawnstrider is pretty good to have around, able to wall an opponent and discard creatures to reanimate. I similarly run a mountain of pillowfort in my Sisay deck, which tends to generate disproportionate value for mana and expects a lot of hate (and to have bad blockers other than Sisay).
I think people often massively over-estimate the opportunity cost of running removal that doubles as a body, and even removal in general, even in mono-Blue Talrand I pack many ways to deal with problematic creatures, including Vedalken Shackles and Helm of Possession (both deeply fun cards obviously), I feel like in Commander it's a lot harder to flood with removal compared to 60 card formats, where some decks run +10 removal effects, that's like running +17 removal, something very few decks will attempt. Yes, you'll flood once in a while, but this is a stats game at heart, so use the stats to your advantage.
Holy cow I never noticed how brutal the art is for Fell Stinger lol That's awesome! \m/
On mass enchantment removal there are a couple mass enchantment destruction spells that can very easily be made one sided, calming verse and cleansing meditation. If you have no untapped lands Calming Verse will not hit your enchantments. If you have threshold Cleansing Meditation will return any of your enchantments that it destroys to the battlefield.
Essence Filter might be worth a look as you can either destroy all enchantments OR destroy all non-white enchantments.
If you're not planning on running much in the way of enchantments Tranquil Grove is a very good way to make sure no one else's enchantments can stick. Destroy all other enchantments. It reads 1GG:Destroy all other enchantments.
I love this show!
My rule is wait until you see at least two removal spells before you deploy your strong threats.
I love EDHREC
I love Fell Stinger. Can't overlook that deathtouch!
Possible Challenge the Stats: Eldrazi Monument in Magda, Brazen Outlaw. Not even on her EDHREC page; instant speed, tutorable protection and an alternate wincon.
Taking notes of all the dad jokes. It's hilarious
I actually had a challenge the stats card, in my deck. I am going to pick up a second CTS card tonight.
I'm so excited.
With regards to Matt’s Mirri deck and running Ohran Frostfang: add in Saryth, the Viper’s Fang! Tapped creatures you control have deathtouch and untapped creatures you control get hexproof. Protection in multiple ways!
Fell stinger is in my power 9 Meren deck. I was shocked to learn at how few decks it's in
Another thing for sakashima's will that they didn't point out: if you target wilhelm, you get a LOT of decayed zombies. 4 tokens = 20 triggers, and this increases exponentially. Such a good pick from Joey this week.
I tune in solely for Matt's reaction after Dana's jokes.
Joey's reactions to the dad jokes are one of my favorite things about this channel.
Spreading Plague in an Eldrazi decks is a super removal spell
Tragic Arrogance is the best overall board wipe in white imo.
Very disappointed on the missed opportunity to mention liquimetal torque and liquimetal coating etc... To remove troublesome permanents that colours normally can't deal with.
Using preators grasp in my mono black deck, on my opponents deck, find an enchantment removal spell, and remove their stuff, with their own card
1:22 The right response would've been "I know, it's the so-called pi rate." You're welcome.
Wave of Vitriol is my favorite artifact/enchantment wrath
Joey have you tried running endurance as graveyard hate but to also save your own graveyard? It slow your graveyard engine down but save your yard and later when your ready to pop off again remove the grave yard hate
As far as Board Wipes go, while Hour of Revelation has a sticky casting cost (WWW), I am a fan of Hour of Revelation...especially in one's opening hand. Let everyone else go off to the races w/ mana rocks & such & then blow everything up turn 3 or 4. Hallowed Burial runs a close second.
I think with each challenge, you have to say which card needs to come out. There are sooo many magic cards these days, what do you cut!
No Masked Vandal in your green anti-artifact examples? Card's pretty strong.
Those PI jokes are top notch, great episode :D
Going from Facebook to Meta. I died. Please never stop being punny
During the discussion of fogs in Joey's Virtus and Gorm deck, I had to go look at his decklist to compare with my own. I was pretty surprised to see he doesn't run Terrifying Presence - it's been a phenomenal card for me that can be used to protect myself or my commander. If they manage to block Virtus, it keeps Virtus alive while removing their blocker. If they swing at me, it keeps me from taking damage and possibly allows me to remove an attacker.
I dont mind exile spells but I like spells that make target creatures useless and stay on the battlefield so they use their own spells on their own creatures if they need them … sooner or later exile ain’t goin to matter
Did you hear about the player that got Lignify?
Seeing Not of this World...Looking at my Moraug deck...*sigh*...*shrug*...guess I gotta buy that...
Dana stepping up for Matt. Get well soon!!
One of the questions I am asked most frequently is: "why on earth do you run Despotic Scepter? That's a terrible card!"
The only answer I have is that Homeward Path is $12.
There are certain strategies that do not have many ways to work around. "I take your stuff" is the number one strategy against which there is very little you can do. You'll waste your resources just trying to get back the resources you already own, but are taken by the Thief. If someone's entire deck is built around that strategy, you are hosed. I really wish Wizards would print more cards to deal with that.
There is also very little you can do against bounce. If you run into a bounce deck, the only way to interact with it is a counterspell of some kind, and by then it's often too late.
So yeah, planning ahead...if Commander had wish boards / side boards or something like that, it would go a long way towards being able to prepare against weird niche strategies like those. Otherwise the only safe defense is to roll your eyes at the player who runs those things, and hope that the rest of the folks at the table have also caught on.
Nice
I honestly think that the classic board wipes are bad these days. The extra mana is nearly ALWAYS worth making it lopsided in your favor.
Joey you should prepare for the graveyard hate using cards that nullify those effects.
the one thing that all decks need to plan for is creatures. This is a major need and should occupy 10-15 slots minimum. next is artifacts followed closely by enchantments 6-10 slots. grave hate is the most overlooked and if everyone packed 3-5 slots towards this goal grave strats would fade in general. as far as making a deck solid, at least in my meta, is to make your deck less wrath prone which I see as the biggest mistake newbs make
Man, that Kraum, Kediss deck is the least hipster/unique deck I've ever seen from Dana. I had no idea he was willing to go so bog standard at times. Neat!
Two black removal spells that should have been mentioned -tragic slip and walk the plank
When I read the title, more than deckbuilding I thought it would be about how to think your plays and setup your answers in advance
Running more non-basics does not make your manabase "greedy".
That bobble on Matt's camera kind of gets me. There since at least one episode 😱
ponjify
Couldn't disagree more with Dana's first argument, running removal spells that fit your deck idea is always the first choice for me. E.g. an for an enchantress deck I'd rather play all enchantment based removal than even a singular swords or path.
The command zone covered this point i'm about to make, but I think spot removal is garbage now. There's so many bomb threats that need to go in so many games that sweepers feel more than just mandatory.