Chaos Magick Interview with Peter J Carroll
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- In this episode, we are honoured to host Peter J. Carroll, a pioneering figure in Chaos Magick. From the evolution of Chaos Magick to its relationship with technology and empirical science, this interview covers it all.
Peter J. Carroll is a key figure in the development of Chaos Magick, and he has authored several books that have become foundational texts in the field. Here is a list of some of his notable works:
1. "Liber Null & Psychonaut" (1987) -
amzn.to/3LYrvb9
2. "Liber Kaos" (1992) -
amzn.to/3PVXyK2
3. "PsyberMagick: Advanced Ideas in Chaos Magick" (1995) -
amzn.to/3S0QBKe
4. "The Apophenion: A Chaos Magick Paradigm" (2008) -
amzn.to/3QiJR9g
5. "The Octavo: A Sorcerer-Scientist's Grimoire" (2010) -
amzn.to/45xpwRV
6. "EPOCH: The Esotericon & Portals of Chaos" (2014) -
amzn.to/3S5ZouB
Peter J. Carroll's official website is Specularium
(www.specularium.org/), where you can find more information
about his works, theories, and other contributions to the field of Chaos
Magick and esoteric studies.
Please note that the years mentioned are for the original publications.
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REFERENCES
Luhrmann, Tanya M. "Persuasions of the Witch's Craft: Ritual Magic in
Contemporary England." Harvard University Press, 1989.
Kripal, Jeffrey J. "Authors of the Impossible: The Paranormal and the
Sacred." University of Chicago Press, 2010.
Hess, David J. "Science Studies and Activism: Possibilities and Problems
for Reconstructivist Agendas." Social Studies of Science, 2007.
Walach, Harald. "Placebo Studies and Ritual Theory: A Comparative
Analysis of Navajo, Acupuncture and Biomedical Healing." Philosophical
Transactions of the Royal Society B, 2011.
Ladyman, James; Ross, Don; et al. "Every Thing Must Go: Metaphysics
Naturalized." Oxford University Press, 2007.
Hanegraaff, Wouter J. "Esotericism and the Academy: Rejected Knowledge
in Western Culture." Cambridge University Press, 2012.
Asprem, Egil. "The Problem of Disenchantment: Scientific Naturalism and
Esoteric Discourse, 1900-1939." Brill, 2014.
Pasi, Marco. "Aleister Crowley and the Temptation of Politics."
Routledge, 2014.
Partridge, Christopher. "The Re-Enchantment of the West: Alternative
Spiritualities, Sacralization, Popular Culture, and Occulture." T&T
Clark International, 2005.
Owen, Alex. "The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture
of the Modern." University of Chicago Press, 2004.
00:00:00 Introduction A new type of interview
00:00:40 Support Angela’s Symposium
00:01:58 How the interview with Peter Carroll came about
00:04:35 Q1 Popularity of Chaos Magick
00:07:18 Commentary Popularity of Chaos Magick
00:12:17 Q2 Altered states of consciousness - gnosis
00:14:49 Commentary Altered states of consciousness - gnosis
00:17:51 Q3 Technology, AI and the future of Chaos Magic
00:21:13 Commentary Technology, AI and the future of Chaos Magi
00:24:56 Q4 Motivation for founding of IOT and its current relevance
00:28:56 Commentary Motivation for founding of IOT
00:32:30 Q5 Hypersphere Cosmology theory
00:36:22 Commentary Hypersphere Cosmology theory
00:39:33 Q5 The interconnectedness of everything - Liber Null
00:40:25 Commentary The interconnectedness of everything - Liber Null
00:42:53 Q6 How Cyberspace Shaped Chaos Magick
00:44:34 Commentary How Cyberspace Shaped Chaos Magick
00:48:05 Q7 Diverse opposition to Chaos Magick
00:49:36 Commentary Diverse Opposition to Chaos Magick
00:52:56 Q8 Reconciling Chaos Magick Ethos to culturally specific traditions
00:54:55 Commentary Reconciling Chaos Magick
00:57:24 Q9 Occult bookshops and community building pre-internet00:59:42 Commentary Occult bookshops and community building
01:02:32 Q10 Will science ever validate magick
01:03:34 Q11 Physics and metaphysics
01:04:39 Q12 Quantum uncertainty01:06:32 Commentary Science, physics & metaphysics, & quantum uncertainty
01:09:56 Q13 Equations for Magick
01:14:00 Q14 Receptivity of the scientific community to Magick
01:16:09 Commentary Equations for Magick & receptivity of the scientific community
01:19:03 Questions from the livestream chat
01:20:04 Why are there 8 points on the Star of Chaos?
01:23:47 Dr Puca’s final thoughts
01:27:25 How important are emotions in Chaos Magick?
01:29:09 The role of Carlos Castaneda in Chaos Magick
01:30:56 Evidence of Magick without the scientific rigour
01:35:09 Support Angela’s Symposium - Zábava
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There is a lot of interference with this post (algorithm) 🙄
For some reason they did not like my comment regarding 27 period time base or 8/9ths time. If your making calculations regarding time, do Ching the silly earth time helps enormously 🙏🌻🐝❤️😊
Gosh Peter, never read your books but I love the name 'chaos magick', I THOUGHT it meant the practice of intentionally sowing confusion and chaos into a situation and in the aftermath knowingly taking control of the reigns of your ship I just sabotaged.
I would rather imagine you as Terry Pratchett and after you're dead I'm going to convince the world that 'Peter Carroll' was actually Terry Pratchett using the most brilliant marketing sorcery to convince people to read the Discworld series ( here I was a Ringworld fanatic when I was a kid not knowing there was a PARODY OF IT! )
-- Moriarty
You Dr Sledge and a handful of others have been vital to my studies.
thank you so much 🙏
If it’s not intrusive: who are those others ? Thank you in advance:)
@@saulemaroussault6343 I *highly* recommend Max Derrat (especially on the subjects of both Alchemy and Jungian psychology). Also, a few more solid YT channels you might find interesting to explore: Eternalized, Like Stories of Old, THIRDEYEDROPS, Galahad Eridanus, Aubrey Marcus, Master Key Society (loads of fascinating, well-read audiobooks), plus just about anything featuring Duncan Trussell, Alan Moore, or Neil Gaiman (ideally via past live interviews).
Best of luck. 👌
@@saulemaroussault6343See you in History/Mythology, Foolish Fish, Let's talk religion, Altrusian Grace Media, Legends of History, Mythology Explained, Frieya Norling and the Magician and the Fool.
That ought to keep you busy for a while.
Ever worked with an etity commonly known as: Bune/Bime/Benzaiten/Saraswati-Devi?
Ask me anything. I owe it to, Her Majesty, Duchess Bune, for what's happened to me. Let me know if you wanna know more! ❤
@@numinous2506 ooooh some of those channels are new to me ! Thank you 🌱 And, no, I don’t really practice magick, even if I’m interested in it. (I have friends who do)
Historical moment. Thank you very much, Doc.
Glad you enjoyed it
Your commentary is so professional and valuable. Thank you for everything you do--New religious movements and magickal traditions are so often misunderstood or understudied. I personally do not belong to a magickal tradition specifically (and I have my issues with some of them), but I always enjoy learning more. Speaking as a Tibetan Buddhist, it seems like Carroll drew a lot of material from Buddhist concepts and modern science in order to overlay it on western ritual magick.
People have also pointed out similarities between Crowley's ideas and Tibetan Buddhism, to the point where some of his modern-day followers have suggested that Thelema could be viewed as an attempt to create a sort of Vajrayana for Westerners.
I love your treatment of this interview Dr. Puca. ❤
😃 Woao, I'm speechless! Thank you for sharing this unvaluable interview, Dr. Puca! I wish you success in all your projects! See you next time! 😃
Thanks a million!
Just to add to your comment about the "Star of Chaos", the symbol was originally created by the fantasy writer Michael Moorcock. It's a sort of stylized compass with arrows (one for each cardinal direction, plus four more between them) pointing in every direction to symbolize every possible outcome or course of action. As far as I know, Moorcock had no particular reason for giving the symbol eight arrows beyond the aesthetic. This doesn't invalidate Carroll's interpretation, obviously, just some additional context.
This was an incredible vidoe!!! Thank you Angela🖤
That's excellent work, Dr Puca, thank you so much! Also, many thanks to Peter J Carroll for his stimulating and inspiring answers.
Our pleasure!
📑The curated transcript for this interview is now available to all Symposiasts at www.innersymposium.study/?p=4949 📜
This was SO great! I really appreciate it.
Doing a great job Angela. Keep it up
This was a very interesting interview. I thought that the format which you presented it was also very stimulating.
Thankyou.Very thought provoking.
Angela these vids are the best! Thanks again. The scholarly ness is great bc it’s coming from a pro not just some wacko.Cheers Angela!
Glad you enjoy it!
Another absolutely outstanding treat! And yes don't sweat the slides, the lecture was stellar, doc!
Glad you like them!
Outstanding presentation...! Well done.
Many thanks!
I read a book or two of his but I liked Phil Hine’s Condensed Chaos, Andrieh Vitimus’ Hands-On Chaos Magic, and Alan Chapman’s Advanced Magick For Beginners better
OK. That's freakin awesome. Peter was my induction to "lhp" like 25 years ago. It's amazing to see him still around and rocking. Mad respect, love and blessings ❤
Thank you for providing this to us and you just gained a sub ✌️
Informative as always.
Thanks again!
47:57 we always hear about shorter attention spans yet we live through the golden age of long form content ! 10 years ago the idea of a 1h30 video about chaos magick getting 20K views was unheard of and yet here we are. I think a good rule of thumb with the evolution of internet (and technology in general) is that once you identify a pattern, it is already obsolescent and you should rather look for the next swing of the pendulum.
This was excellent, thank you! It's been about 20yrs since I picked up a copy of "Liber Null and Psychonaut" as a young man; I read it in an afternoon and wasn't mature enough to absorb it entirely, as one would expect. I'm glad to see Mr Carroll is still active and delving further. Your explanations make it very digestible!
A very interesting interview...not only in the content, but also in the format! An interview in which the interviewee is not present is a novelty, at least for me, so well done for being on the forefront of such cutting edge techniques of knowledge acquisition, engagement, and proliferation! ;)
Also, thanks very much for your answer nearly at the end on your views on "Truth" as a metaphysical concept, and the pursuits of science and the methods of academia at producing verifiable factual evidence, as opposed to what happens in magic and religion and other such realms of experience. I agree with what you expressed fully, and thus am glad to hear you say it, because I have had the same approach for the entirety of my teaching and academic career, and always thought that was just "good methodology," but apparently it's a lot more rare than I had hoped such things might be. I could say much more, but we'll save that for another time! ;)
This is great, thanks for the extraordinary effort!!!! I hope we see more of Peter Carroll in the future, I really like his approach on the current magickal events.
I hope so too!
I've read four of his books. I've found his writings and those of Gordon White to be particularly helpful.
wow! This is like actually sooo cool!!! More authors like this please!!!😀
Incredible work. Thank you 💚💚💚
Thank you too!
I'm working with AI and already seeing parallels with Egregores Servitors Golems and Tulpas. Especially with Tulpas. Most of my research into AI has been on autonomy and agency, but I also plan to build a system that can consume an archive of esoteric text and answer from that knowledge. I also believe that we will be able to further ground AI in the physical realm by giving them embodiment by providing them access to their own operating system. However, that could be 1 to 3 years away.
OMG thank you for this. If there was a purpose to CZcams. This video is it.
Technology has shaped humankind more than humankind has shaped technology. Humans are not the only creatures to make and use tools, but we have been molded by technology much more than the competition. The fire of Hephaestus is a force of nature -- it is the same fire as that of Heraclitus and Zarathustra -- it is the logos that moves the cosmos.
interesting point
Reminds me of how Technology is personified as a godlike entity in the show American Gods (which is based on Niel Gaiman’s graphic novels)
The way gods are portrayed there is very reminiscent of the concept of Egregores
@@BigBlizzFan the egregoric quality of the gods in that series is intentional. However, the god of technology is Prometheus-Lucifer imo.
I Love you Angela, keep doing your work as it will inspire a lot of people. You're doing Great!!!
Thank you so much!
Didn't know he was still around
I like Crowley's take: "Remember that magick includes all acts soever." For me magick and science are synonymous. The ancient alchemist were the first of arrayed scientists.
You handled this very well Angela.
Although I am sadly underwhelmed by his theories.
If he wants to make magic into physics then it’d interesting to see him in a three way debate with the likes of Eric Weinstein or say Joseph P Farrell 🤔Not sure how he’d hold up though.
I bristle at the idea of magic being put through the mangle of hard science tbh but that’s just me.
Thank you for such a great chunk of hard work yet again…you do Dr Hanegraaff proud and are a real credit to the Amsterdam University 🙏💖🙏
anything valuable that chaos magic says is all cribbed from austin osman spare's writing, the rest is worthless new age spiritualist fluff. i can't take this man seriously after reading the end of liber null - a reincarnation rite which involves a dying man impregnating a young woman and then ritualistically killing himself a few months into the pregnancy? it's such a joke.
This was highly appreciated and I ❤ your work/research X 🔥🔥👌🏻🔥🔥
I appreciate that
This should be interesting… thanks Doc
I see you have created your slides in layers. Place your writing in the top layer and make sure that the layer with your writing isn't transparent so that the writing is clearly shown in black and white!
By the way, this a great video - lots for me to think about!
Good questions
The concept of ai servitors is funny. I’m an engineer as a profession and I’ve been studying the occult all my life. I guess I have created servitors that do some crazy real life $h!t. Haha. Right now I’m working on the creation of an app which I guess would be another type of servitors. 😂. Thanks for the interview Ms Puca. ❤
It's Doctor! 😉
@@drangelapuca sorry. Dr Puca. My wife has a PharmD. My sis has a Juris Doctorate. My pickleball buddy is a MD anesthesiologists. I never called them Dr.
I know you meant well @@jbaquinones
Yea.. basically a servitor is a mental app, making one of code is an interesting idea.
The Carroll's sure have a way of taking people down the rabbit hole.
I think i remember him coming up with an actual equation for how imagick works. brilliant !
Yes I talk about that in the Livestream interview with him
Chaos magick always has an air of adolescense. Without exception, every Chaos magick practitioner I have ever met has been in their 30's but still stuck at 16. The way they dress, the way they talk, their ideas andthe things they do for recreaction...all suggest man-children.
High school was a wonderful time for many after all, judging is easy, but everyone seeks solace somewhere no matter who it is.
If being adult is just swallowing everything the majority of people shove down your throat then I rather stay a child, thank you very much.
@@lainhikaru5657 I mean, many of the principles of chaos magick work...really damn well in some cases. But the theory and theologies that underpin the beliefs of many practitioners are...silly.
@@perydwyn Ahh...I agree with that, I think I see where you're coming from.
You mean stuff like making a Harry Potter altar or something of the sorts for example?
Yeah, it can be silly, or as some people like to say, cringe(I hate that word) but depending on the point of view is not much more silly than mainstream religion.
From an atheist point of view for example, both the mainstream religious and the occultists, witches and chaos magicians are all larping really hard.
I actually come from a very skeptic background.
But I think chaos magic is efficient and very real not because of the manifestation of a mystical being or because the sigils create some sort of wonderful energy.
But because through chaos magic you can induce your brain to do what you want, so lets say, gnosis is no more than a very powerful focus exercise, the ritual, no matter how silly they may be are just tools to reinforce intention.
And when you gain confidence through such intention you'll be able to take physical action to change tge world around you.
And also you can do it for fun.
I just felt a bit personally attacked because I guess I fit the stereotype too much of someone who peaked in high school.
I was beautiful, popular, had everything I want, had a lot of fun and was aways doped out of my mind, and then came adulthood crashing me like a plane accident, work, an incurable disease, abusive relationships and so on.
And being a skeptic in everything didn't gave me any help, I actually envied the religious, being able to blame everything on stuff like demons and bad energy and having hope that at least when they die they'll get a new chance by reincarnation or eternal happiness in a paradise of their choosing.
I had nothing of that to believe, and honestly I still don't.
But if I can balance out my woes by using chaos magic to gaslight myself into a more positive mindset to at least endure this all a little better I will.
That's one of the reasons I also study hypnosis, hypno therapy, fervor phenomenon and other forms of self-induced hallucination.
I try to avoid drugs cuz I already have a bit of a problem with it.
I just won't swallow that the world is what it is and that's the end of it.
If I can't change anything about the external world in an impactful manner I can at least try changing the internal one.
Also in defense of those who looks silly in their pratices I will quote the wiccans.
"If you do no harm do as ye will."
Or something similar, I dob't wuite remember it fully.
Better than for example those people who play with rattle snakes in a church and that is considered a legit religious pratice.
No, u
thank you.
You're welcome
you are pure genius
Chaos Magic without the use of incantations and trappings, should be possible in theory, to employ the will only requires then a Strong and Powerful Self. To get that strong and powerful self, means that the old self needs to die and then to be reborn. Deconstruction and Construction of the new man. Perhaps this is what Spiritual Practices were all about, such as certain aspects of Christianity. So we must borrow the self of Jesus who was a Chaos Magician. If we believe it, it will happen. So the way to master chaos magic is to walk the Right Hand Path first until we connect with the source of Chaos, and then the Left Hand Path to harness it without detrimental consequences. That is my path now.
Nobody ever mentions punk. But Chaos magic is Magic’s equivalent of punk in music. In sentiments as well as parallel timeline.
I've subscribed to your channel about 4 times now. CZcams keeps unsubbing me.
Pete Caroll has no idea about what is going on with the IOT at the moment and should not be talking about it - he’s been out for many years now and the IOT itself it’s operating very well without him
It's been appropriated fair and square so a co founder has no right to talk about it?
Then should the IOT have no right to speak of Liber Null? If you put in an application for the IOT they ask if you read liber null. They don't mention any other book on their application
There is a small error that would be easy to correct. The symbol for Chaos that is presented on the shot used as the title for this video should be rotated c. 20° to the left or right. As it is it's too precisely aligned to be fitting.
Gnosis (γνώσις) - knowledge, as opposed to faith (πίστις). Can think of it as any method for reification of a belief adopted for a specific purpose.
I hate that I missed the livestream.
You can watch the video 😊
I'd rather chat in live stream nowIm watching this much later oh it is Monday here
🙏🌻🐝❤️👉🈲
A face to face interview would have been much more valuable.
No prepared answers
Raw questions
In Real time
Aniway, I appreciate the valuable information you collected
Octarine... a man of refined taste
💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜
What if the understanding of time reveals that motion and change is an illusion and that everything is always the same? (Nothing gained and nothing lost.)
See this is why I'm never disruptive you know who I am
Pu Tin is your BEST Student
works!
in Brazil, magicians from chaos has a habit of posting to a server. candles, incense, offerings such as; food, drinks as well as in Goetic rituals with daemons for example. Do you think this is valid, since you are not dealing with spirits? Thank you, and forgive my English
💜
Rigid traditions like High Magic have the ultimate goal of spiritual awakening of their practitioners. I don't recall Chaos magic having such lofty goals. Hence that may be the limitation or the eclectic approach.
There many problems with it. OSman Spare is fine but chaos magic if you are not careful will turn you into a deformed narcissist with psychic powers.
The thought of an AI using Chaos Magic of its design is terrifying...
You mentioned how religions and religious concepts like deity, demons, etc. are constantly being negotiated and change overtime. Those concepts exist in a subjective reality like you said. So how exactly does that subjective reality become objective again? Like how would conjuring a demon for example be possible then if the concept of a demon is infinitely nuanced?
Subjective experience
@@FirstMatterCreative regardless lol. It still applies to my question
Probably no man/woman could ever know "objective reality" 🙂It's probably all "subjective" and we all decide what to believe.
@@alkemystica that's exactly right! Totally agree
@@christopherp.8868 I am not sure if objective reality exists tbh. I know we all hold up an objective reality through social agreement but there isn't as far as I know a way to prove it all is or isn't all in one mind.
è possibile avere la versione scritta dell intervista ? grazie
sara' disponibile su Patreon tra qualche giorno per gli Initiate+ 🙂
Wyle I can b the doctrine y whould I be just a doc? Self-realization is extrodinery profound experience
I thought the eight pointed star was all the ordinal directions at once, hence chaos.
That's how it started with Michael Moorcock I think. The 8 arrows and colours scheme should never have become a dogma, it's a curiosity as a set of 4 dualities to consider; love / war , sex / death , wealth / living by your wits , and ego / octarine. It's clumsiness as dualistic concepts probably made it suitable for blind dogma that rejects reasoning.
1:25:15 You see this across the topic of the "paranormal" in my experience. James Randi has dismissed people like Radin as basically irrelevant to the topic of psychics because nobody thinks of a "psychic" as someone who's able to marginally shift probabilities in ways that are only apparent across large sample sizes. People think being a "psychic" means being able to predict the future or find hidden things with such accuracy that you're able to charge money for the service. In other words, a lot of people define these things in extreme terms because that's what they care about, because that's where you're the most likely to find abusers and scammers. Similarly, people who claim to have psychic abilities almost never mean it in the modest, Radinian sense, so defending the existence of psychic abilities using Radin's work probably strikes a lot of skeptics as a motte and bailey tactic.
Hoodoo and Catholic don't go together unless your from new Orleans. It's mostly African protestant folk magic with indigenous herbs.
Mind giving me more info? What is this all about? Can these practices be trusted? Do you get bad on Gods side if you utilize these practices or is that a lie of the elite for control? It’s really hard to tell at this point in time
Professor Puca and Pope Pete. Could it get any better?
ChatGPT did a good job in commenting xD ;)
Oh wait forgot to ask for the Silly-Bliss. Wait.. what we reading ?
🙂
Might want to try Bobby Hammett who talks about the origins of chaos magic. Melon
Ray Sherwin has a lot to say about it, he seems to have been the one who coined the term 'chaos magic' in published writing, his former staff say he doesn't abuse power or behave like a tyrant.
Attention span...indeed esteemed Doctor the current generation to my perception is very low on representatives of a true humanity. I watched the internet go from 1992 BBS where we just chatted a little bit and then organized parties and face to face meetings more than anything, then it's email lists in the early 2000's and then it's Livejournal and then it's FB and the gate is open to so many so-called 'platforms' that one cannot track it all with human intellect. Ai excels at some things, but is a flaming idiot in most things humans can track. I never made a Twitter, and even FB seemed a dumb down from LJ. MySpace was never tolerable to me, so blinky and ugly. Divide and conquer is among us, this internet unleashed upon us by the tech lords.
I had the book Liber Null and Psychonaut in my early years of Magick in the 90's. Must have been after 96 or into 97 that I encountered Peter Caroll, actually in the midst of my experience with an OTO group in Portland, Oregon. In that early phase of my life with those folk there was a more do it yourself aspect of practice, and then round turn of century the organization went more into trying to be an equal player with the established religions of the Age of Pisces which fractured the community and ultimately shoved me out of the Thelemic puddle to seek my next lessons elsewhere. Good to reconnect with these ideas further on after losing track of this stuff. To me do it yourself is the new ethic of the Age of Aquarius where we no longer swim with the school of fish led by the sharks. The core of Aquarius gets sidetracked by social movements but the core is that each individual of an Aquarian group cannot be a mindless thrall, but must be a Leo of an individualized (hello Uncle Jung!) human collaborating with an Aquarian group as a distinct ally to the cause and not just an unconscious mobster fish swimming with the vast majority.
Non practitioners have nothing but opinions. F them. It's naught but bloviation and hot air when there's no experience or experiment behind vapid comments.
You HAVE to mention he who should not be named specifically when CZcams, even with it's highest parental settings, was letting my son see/send me racist and sexist jokes yet I can't send him links to science videos from people like Kyle Hill about nuclear power.
Twitter or whatever was doing nasty stuff before, don't blame him, they are ALL censoring legitimate things in one way or another.
Otherwise, loved the interview. It kind of feels like "work with what you can" (no offense to Peter also, one must have their reasons)
I liked the books. Gave me a frame to see things .. but when it became dogmatic with the colors and all of that.. and when i did something they told me That is not Chaos Magick.. i was like um.. I thought magick was about creativity and change.. you know the universe speaking through you. NOT you. BUT YOÒ. 😅
Did you get accused of magitis (grandiose ego mania) for failing to admire and obey? It's like watching scientology enforcers these days.
Quantum mechanics "indeterminate states"
"quantum uncertainty"
Have a cookie :)
This could be made with a voice synthesizer...
lol postmodern esoterica .
This is pure Evil
Twitter under musk is better, wtf?
Cosa non si mette in piedi per chiavarsi qualche gallina esaltata, venite in Vaticano abbiamo luoghi adatti per autentiche esperienze d'elevazione.