Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures - Lesson 2: Basic Transitions
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- Making a scene smooth and believable is the first step in editing, and room tone is your primary tool. However, there's more than smoothness to finding the truth in a scene. One must consider story and characters in order to build a proper scene. This is discussed in great detail in Chapter 11 of the book "Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures - A Guide to the Invisible Art - 2nd Edition" by John Purcell - Focal Press
I like this a lot, because it's not a neat and tidy demo with an obvious problem and obvious solution. Several things were tried and discarded, similar to what I've done in my own edits. It's gratifying to know that this type of informed trial and error is normal, even for masters of the craft.
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for the questions.
1) Group vs. Consolidate (sort of a vanilla vs. chocolate” question). An edit group is a tiny “session” that sits within a Pro Tools session. It contains all of the edit information of the clips from which it is made. When you group these regions, you allow it to function like a file (that is, you can fade over it, which it the most common reason to make one) without committing to a file. Up side: At any point down the line it can be ungrouped so that you can fix it. Down side: a) it’s not a soundfile, so you can’t search for it, and b) if you want to convert your session to another DAW, most conversion programs won’t accept a PT session that contains edit groups.
Bottom line: I use groups for “casual” tone, like when I grab some nearby RT and make a quickie tone bridge. I use consolidate when I bother to create quality RT by cutting and fading and sweating. This way I have that specific RT as a file, so it's easy to find. But that’s just me.
2) Room tone with dial or on separate track? Ask the mixer. Barring that, if it works, why split it? If you need a second track to “make it work,” then why use it?
Good luck,
John
"I don't like the off-camera panting, it's not that kind of movie". LOL :)
Great tutorial.
Thanks Jose!!...a great insight into room tones, and how to work with them
Hi John. Thanks for watching. Thanks for your comment. Cheers.
Thank you so much for those tutorials! You are a really great presenter and teacher.
Thank you for this video! I learned so much in 16 minutes :)
Thanks for making this. It was my first edit and i was guessing what to do, you confirmed i was doing the right thing and i learnt a bit as well, thanks again.
Don H Thanks Don H,All credits goes to John Purcell.
Thanks to him and you.
thanks for bringing it down ! this is so helpful!!!
Hi Maximilian: Thanks for the comment. I'm happy it helped you.
I am learning so much by watching this. Thanks
Hey, great to hear this is useful. Good luck with your editing!
GREAT video!
boatblocker Thanks, boatblocker. It's still fun to get nice feedback.
Great insights.
Well, I'd say goto the dailies for fill first. And check your fades. Also extending the A side works well more often then spending this amount of time on the B side.
I know this is old and things have changed.
Your technique is one of many good ways to go. It's question of time, budget, format, mix style, etc. If it sounds good, it's good.
Fantastic tutorials!!!! Thnx man!
Great lesson thanks for creating this video.
+Trete Lo Thanks for watching.
Thanks so much for this, was a great help
Hi Roy. I'm happy to learn that it was useful. Thanks for the comment.
Wow great stuff! Not only did I learn new stuff but I'm seeing that some of my tactics are "normal" or at least common :p Just getting into doing sound in Logic Pro instead of all of it in the video editor so this is real helpful, even though this is Pro Tools most of the DAW's look and work the same.
+nateo200 Thanks. Glad to hear that it was helpful.
Which keycap or command did you use for the cross fades?
Hello.....and thank you for the great lessons. As a new sound editor, I really appreciate these. I do have a newbee question if I may. I'm currently editing several scenes from a local film recorded last week. Problem is....these scenes were recorded using wireless lavs for whatever reason. The lavs were not at the same volume, therefore the track volumes don't match. If I raise the two lover volumes to the loudest one, the vocals match pretty well, but the room tone does not. How would you handle this scenario? Could I maybe remove all roomtone from all 3 tracks, and then add a common RT under these tracks? That could be tough as I don't have that much RT on these tracks. Really struggling with this and help you can offer some advise. Thanks.
Hi Richard,
You probably have access to more room tone than you think. Somehow, you need to make/find good RT for all three shots, and probably for each microphone used, at least a couple of seconds long. Remember, each shot has its own tone, so you must make separate tones for each of them.
A common way to find enough RT is to put the ENTIRE take from the original recording-or all takes from the same shot (camera angle, not actor) one after another-on a DAW channel and remove all the words, rustles, noises, breaths, etc., and make a little bit of “pure RT.” From this create a sound file and name it something like “Scene 32, Shot D RT, boom.” Do this for each shot. Then you can attach bits and pieces of these RT clips to their appropriate shots. This will give you a tool for bridging the transitions. Remember, make the transitions just as long as is needed to smooth out the edit: No longer, as this will increase noise.
If Plan A fails, there is a Plan B. Find lots of GOOD RT for the loud shot. Use that tone to fill the places where the loud shot is NOT playing in the timeline. It ain’t great, but it may do. Do not simply lay down a track of loud shot RT for the whole scene, since that will just make everything louder and not solve the problem.
If you still can’t find any RT, then your idea of stripping the RT for all shots and creating a “vanilla” RT track between the bursts of dialogue is worth trying, as unconventional as it is. It may not work, but “In love and war…”
Don’t create RT by using a shot section of “silence” and looping it one and over. It will sound like a weird machine.
Normally don’t start by using heroic noise reduction. It’s asking too much of a processor, and you will pay in the form of inhuman artifacts. You may need some noise reduction later, but only once you’ve smoothed the scene with good RT editing.
I know this sounds self promotional, but this is covered exhaustedly in my book, “Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures.”
Good luck.
What bit depth and sample rate do you usually choose to edit sound for movies, please? Great tutorial by the way! It was very interesting to see you work and hear what works and what could work better! *thumbs up*
Normally, and unless something weird happened, you'll use the sample rate/bit depth on the recordings. That SR will stick with the film forever, probably. Usually it's going to be 48 kHz at 24 bit, but it can be different ans still be OK. One likes to think that SOMEONE planned the shoot and the postproduction, so the whole process makes sense. However, if it turns out that it was recorded at a rate that doesn't make sense, you will have to resample something. This is where the meeting with the mixer, sound designer, etc. is vital. Good luck and thanks for watching the video.
Isn't the sound recorder supposed to record about a minute of room tone on set for each scene? I thought that was the way to handle room tone vs. the way you were copying room tone from other regions. Can you clarify?
+Playbacc Films Yes, it's great to get RT from the location mixer--RT that you can use as fill for the scene. But, but there are a number of things that can go sour:
(1) No tone was recorded. I rarely get tone from the set. Either there was no time to do it, or the crew/director was unsympathetic, or other reasons.
(2) The RT is no good. Usually noise issues from the set. Or by the time the mixer could get to record it, so much has changed.Any number of things can make it unacceptable.
(3) Th RT does’t match: Let’s say you have a 4-shot scene, each with its own RT sound (if the RT always matched we’d not have jobs). Which shot will the RT match? Usually the last shot of the day, or whenever it was possible to record. Or do you get a "vanilla" RT that matches everything, and therefore matches nothing? Either way, it is usually compromise. Sometimes OK, other times not OK.
Getting location-recorded RT you can use is wonderful. It saves time and is more organic than something you cook up. Location mixers want to give you RT that works for you; otherwise, why go to the trouble? But there are so many ways this can go wrong that you need to be able to get by without it. I hope this helps.
Great video
Jimmie Iversen Thanks.... I hope it helps.
Whats the shortcut for deleting the beginning and end of a clip at the same time? Basically deleting the stuff on a clip that is not selected
Its Command+T
Its name is "Trim Region to Selection"
does anyone know the keyboard shortcuts he's using at:
1:36 - when he's applying a fade in one move (cmd + F brings up the preference pane)
and
7:03 - he places the cursor at on a region and makes a fade appear (hitting "d" or "g" will only give me straight fades)
You can set it to either equal power- the fade he`s currently using or to equal gain- straight fade in the fades dialogue box.
Hello, great video thanks!!!
2 questions, when you group 2 cuts is that a consolidate?
Is using an atmosphere track or room tone track, do you cut the dialog hard?
Hey bro!
Noup, when you consolidate a track, it's a destructive process, what my friend here is doing is whats called a Group Region, you can google it up to know how it works :).
what happens if the mixer needs to change the volume of one track, it will affect the headroom volume too ?
Very good tuto by the way :)
Hi Baptiste. I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you're asking if changing the volume of one track will affect the overall headroom, well, yes. But I suspect that your question is more complex than that, so please give me more details. Thanks.
Thanks for the tips man!
I'm new to this and I'm wondering why you wouldn't just cut all the room tone before and after the dialogue and create another track with a more consistent room tone that isn't part of the dialogue recording.
It's a logical solution but it usually doesn't solve the problem. The "islands" of dialogue that you left contain their own background noise. When you add a track full of RT, you are just doubling up on the noise where your dialogue bursts happen. Under rare circumstances this trick will work, but usually you move from one problem to another: you exchange noisy for noisy and bumpy. I suggest you watch my video on noise reduction, where it's better explained. czcams.com/video/iZFZTChXAvo/video.html
Ahhhh suppose that makes sense. Cheers John.
Check out the noise reduction video. It's long, but it addresses some of your issues.
So helpful, thanks!! Quick question - would you use clip gain vs volume automation these days? Or is volume automation better?
Hi Sylvie. Clip again and volume automation: one is not “better” than the other. Clip gain adjusts the input level of the plugin processors, while volume animation affects the output. Why should a dialogue editor care?
1) A dynamics processors really cares about how hot its input signal is. Since clip gain controls the what’s hitting the inserts rack, it provides a reliable and steady input level. So, if you, or the mixer, are using things like compressors, gates, de-essers, you will probably want to use gain automation.
2) You want to deliver the mixer a dialogue edit that’s built mostly of clip gain leveling she/he won’t inherit crazy fader moves. Delivering a cut that contains your editorial volume vision with a relatively level fader position will make for an easier, and hence a better mix. Only clip gain adjustments will do this.
These are two different beasts: one does not replace the other. Good luck.
John Purcell makes sense. Thank you!
This software name pls
Great video. But you can save a lot of time if you use iZotope RX 4.
NOT true my friend. we dont want to save time and loose on quality...
This software name tell bro
HI. The DAW is Pro Tools. Waves plugins.
What's the hot key for the fades?
+Timmy Fasano Hi Timmy.
It is the "f" o Command + "f"
Hi José, can you help me?
I've search some film open session's for training dialogue edit and process skills.
Do you know any place where I can find some stuff like that?
Thanks
Do you mean a ProTools session with imagen and production sound of a film?
If your answer is "Yes!" I would say that it is difficult. In my case, I only work in film and TV episodes that have rights which owners (the producers) will not approve that their material be sent to any person. I guess that all dialogue editors would say the very same.
So, how to train?
My bet would be film students. I mean, they need to do some exercises. To do short films to practice. Well, If I would be you, I would knock the door of films students, films schools, etc.
If I'm right that will be a win/win situation: They solve the sound post tasks (with you) and you get experience from material from the real life.
Thanks José, that is exactly what I want. But, there just a few guys making short film here for me collect more material(PT Session; OMF and Movie) to work and train. Really glad for the answer.
Hi Kalleb. I have something that may help. This is the demo section of the website for the second edition of my book. It's the very material that is used on this series of tutorials, along with some videos from the first edition. cw.routledge.com/textbooks/9780415828178/demo.asp
The password is "success." There's an OMF, picture, and more. Plus, on the first page there's an instruction sheet. Just follow the video. I hope this helps.
Man, that's helps a lot. Thank you, John.
Did you normalize the dialog?
Hi Captain Kev. No, the dialogue doesn’t get normalized. Unlike music, where you really want to get your money’s worth from every bit, movie sound needs lots of headroom. You know that in the digital universe, the relation between dBFS and the rest of the world involves good intentions, assumptions, and voodoo, but if you’re not using a DB meter, then about -10 dBFS for dialogue peaks ought to keep you out of trouble.
Thank god for clip gain
Yes, it's one of those things to remember on Thanksgiving. Thanks for the note.
Have you ever heard of a gate?
Hi Daltira. Thanks for bringing that up. In a sense, all non-harmonic noise attenuation devices operate like noise gates, just in a more sophisticated manner. A simple gate will rapidly attenuate a signal that crosses a certain threshold and then release rather slowly. Even a sophisticated broadband NR device works like a gate (well, sort of), but in very tiny frequency bands with greater accuracy. But no matter how you choose to process your tracks-gate, expander, broadband noise attenuator, etc.-the tracks have to be organized and edited properly; otherwise you run the risk of over-cooking the whole scene. There's nothing inherently wrong with gates, when used judiciously, as long as the tracks are properly prepared. Thanks.
What do you mean when you say that you run the rusk of overcooking the scene? Do you mean clipping or pushing the signal too hard into the red?
No, it's not about level. When you use a noise attenuation processor too aggressively, you can easily create artifacts, which can sound a bit like a cell phone on a bad day.
Well yeah just like using anything. Even analog. Just because you are using it doesn't mean that you are going to get artefacts. Using a gate in your scenario would be much better than trying to transition background noise and you wouldn't need to use it that much so where you would get artefacts.
By all means, if you want to use a gate, then use a gate. This video is about organizing tracks, not about how to mix them. You’ll mix using whatever tools you have, based on your preferred way of working.
Good Luck