The Venting Hive vs. Condensing Hive: Beekeeping Winter Survival Tactics
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- čas přidán 26. 10. 2023
- The SBGMI believes in promoting sound beekeeping practices. While we understand that many will choose one way over another and that there is no one-size fits all approach, we endorse the condensing hive ideal promoted by many Northern beekeepers. Peggy Desanto presents a salient comparison in this presentation and offers digestible data for the novice and academic alike. Peggy will also provide listeners with a description of her product the “Hive Hugger” an insulation system for the condensing model.
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Thank you Peggy for your research and tons of factual information!
Greetings from Lebanon 🇱🇧, a small country in the Middle East.
Here we use the European method to solve the condensation problem which is:
1-Top Insulation with 3 to 5 cm polystyrene high density
2- Airtight cover
3- screen bottom board to let humid air gets out
They have a theory that says more cold weather more you open the bottom board.
I've been using this method for 3 winters and i'm very satisfied with the results
frederick dunn has been sharing this science for a good while now,probably one of the most important things ive learned from him
I belong to Connecticut Beekeepers Association - where Bill Hesbeck has been our President and educator for a long time. His Article in Bee Journal covered this very well. However, his process to make the hive insulation was quite difficult for me anyway. Your solution does the same thing but is easier to deploy. Thanks for the long video that was jam packed with information.
This approach is certainly more accessible for those with the means to purchase the product or replicate the design! If you do one thing - at least insulate the top!
I love this. This is what I've been trying to get people to understand.
Especially the last part with honey providing thermal mass. People say it will act as ice block. But it helps to maintain a STABLE and CONSISTENT temperature.
And about the fact that sugar or fandant or sugar syrup is NOT honey.
That's one death-by-powerpoint I'd like to see spelled out in crayons for the average "expert" beekeeper that's claiming to know it all. The legit differences between honey and sugar ayrup. The metabolic process and digestive process involved in converting the 2 to energy, the pH differences, the different types of acids and chemicals in the honey that can help prevent pathogenic diseases, the fact that the sucrose has to be split via invertase enzymatic activity, how that enymatic cleaving of the sucrose molecule is very inefficient below about 75F and virtually impossible below 50F, etc.
My stance is that insulation and a lack of ventilation is what the bees want year round, based on their home selection. Insulation keep your homes temperature cool and stable in the heat, as it does keep it warm in the cold. And thermal mass is a thing. It isn't a matter of producing heat, or necessarily about storing heat. It's about temperature stability. Dandelions are one of the first forage sources, they sprout when that great thermal mass heatsink we call "earth", "ground" or "soil" reaches 50F (about 10C)... they don't germinate before then, and then get frozen and die off, because the thermal mass regulates the temperature to a very stable average. Once that average temperature is achieved, they sprout when the soil is only going to get warmer. So how does removing thermal mass affect the hives thermoregulation? Will they think it's much warmer than it should be before spring arrives? If the dandelions sprout as 50F/10C, and then bloom when it's 12C or 14C outside... would the bees be more inclined to waste less energy in search of forage if the interior temperature is more stable due to greater thermal mass helping to keep a more consistent temperature gradient?
So the lower energy consumption at 40F, I believe it was actually 42F (41.6F, close enough) from a study done that Randy Oliver hosted on his website. They broke honey weight and volume down to caloric density, converted to watts and jouls, and then calculated the energy usage per bee, using number of bees calculated by total weight of all bees divided by average bee weight... it went into some detail.lol. but yes, they found the very minimum energy consumption to be around 42F. Below that, the bees started expending more energy rapidly to try and bring the temperature back up, above that bees had more energy expenditure and honey consumption due to increased activity.
As for the CO², YES, CO² is good for bees. IIRC, they can survive up to 16% total atmospheric CO² for up to 8 or 10 days, showed no rchange in activity or behavior at 8% atmospheric CO²... both of those would be toxic, if not lethal to humans. And anything above 4% CO² was proven to reduce mite fecundity and increase mite mortality. A different study found that bees work harder to maintain CO² concentrations and hive atmospheric homeostasis at around 1.1% CO², even under various levels of forced ventilation. IIRC, under the maximum ventilation, CO² density ROSE by 500ppm and some bee mortality occured due to heat stress.
So screened bottom board... nope. Get rid of it, they dont want it, dont need it, they dont typically select environments with an open or exposed bottom, the CO² falls out... it's not needed. And if anyrhing it's increasing the mite reproduction by lowering CO² and humidity. While also letting SHB in, as most screen bottom boards I know of use 1/8" harware cloth... the hive beetles can pass through a space as small as 2.5mm, #8 (1/8") hardware cloth or screening has an opening of about 3.17mm.
Top ventilation holes are often filled by propolis by my bees; so I only open that vent in the summer when temps get above 90 degrees F.
Enjoyed your video and product introduction. I've used foamboard for years and also foamboard under the telescoping lid. While my hives do have upper entrances (1/2 inch) I also use a vavaldi board with burlap sacking in the winter months. Except for one year (mites) in 10 I've had 100% survival of my hives (29-36 in number) and those include some 5x5x5 nucs. My hives like you mentioned come out of winter with food stores to spare and looking like hives in August/September (live in York County PA). I'm also a firm believer in the cluster size mirroring the hive body size so condense down the hives to three mediums in August in preparation for winter set up. Wish you the best with your product and its success!
Great Video! I had similar ideas. I live in Canada it reaches - 40c at times but mostly - 20c to - 10c. This year I decided to experiment with reflective insulation and no top ventilation. I have an inner round feeder and load it with dry sugar to absorb a little moisture and helps the bees eat it, Above my round feeder I have just top reflective R5 insulation In the lid and reflective bubble insulation on top of top frames with one hole leading to round feeder with just the round feeder lid on and also use double deep with plenty of honey and no empty frames. I know I'm not going full boar with insulation. This year is a test for what I will do next year. I'm more than likely to follow what you are doing next year. I totally agree with your system. Thank you for your research.
Glad to see research verifying my same results - No venting with Upper insulation. The only difference is I tape any seam that is leaking air vs insulating the sides. I believe my bees are eating less when in a state of topor. Using sensors for temperature and humidity, those statistics were much less variable with my setup. Note - I don't live in the harsh environments of Canada or the northern Western states.
I love this! Great job explaining not just the how but the why. I'm glad to see decades old processes being challenged. It's so refreshing any time someone points out that bee clustering is a survival tactic, not the preferred living condition. Most animals will cluster to survive in extreme cold as a last ditch effort to survive. I've been using 6-8" of raw wool, but I have to say that the vacuum insulated panel is super simple and clean. Very appealing.
Glad you enjoyed it! What is interesting is that these concepts are older than the "venting" idea...
Thanks for a great presentation; I'm passing it on to our local beeks. I've been insulating all hives for quite a few years now and am a big believer in its benefits. I believe the top insulation is most important, sides 2nd, bottom least. For the screened bottoms I insert 1/2" foam board in the slot under the screen. For top "attics" (quilt boxes) I've used medium and deep boxes inverted with plywood to separate the insulation from the bees but am now building attics from 1x10 and insulating w/ regular fiberglass insulation. I drill a hole in that plywood the size of a jar lid so if I want to feed in Spring I can just put a jar of syrup inside the attic; I seal that hole w/ a jar lid ring with #8 hardware cloth cut to fit it. In winter I can just lift that jar lid to see the bees under it.
Insulation method are indeed tricky when it comes time to manipulate spring feeding!
Wow this is eye opening. I'm an insulating and ventilate guy. I will be changing my wintering technique to more insulation and no ventilation this winter.
You can always run some one way and some another and see how they fare? Colony size plays a role too - smaller colonies may need a entrance reduction - but larger colonies should handle wide open bottoms just fine. That is all they "vent" they need!
I am now using Hive Hugger. It's only late November but, wow, it's way better than what the old guys said about not insulating and ventilating. I'll never go back.
That is awesome to hear. We must always be re-evaluating what we are doing in light of new information less we stagnate in dogma!
incredible presentation
Interesting data. I used to wrap, and do not anymore. I switched over to the insulated inner covers from Bee Smart design and have had a 90% survival with them. I'm in NE Ohio btw.
Wrapping seems to be a preference for beekeepers, moreso than a function - based on data. But - if the wrap is insulative, it has a beneficial effect. At the very least, research shows insulation on the top is the most important! Peggy's insulated crown covers are sold separately as well I do believe!
@@sbgmimedia I'll have to check. I already have an Insulated Inner for all of my hives.
@@CastleHives should be good!
@@sbgmimedia My plan is to use a 4 inch shim with great stuff foam above. So hope to get an R value of 15 or more.
“Based on science”. Sounds good!
30:55 I believe the item listed as "Sackcloth" on the Egyptian study is most likely some type of quilt box. I say this because it looks to have the same Rvalue as foam board, and you mentioned that tarpaper has essentially no Rvalue. 🤷♂️
Played with packing my hives. Even playing with feeding syrup during the winter like rick Williams does .. yes results were nice earlier drones. Big units .. Problem was the mites really took off over winter having brood all winter your building up the mite loads . Wasn't for that id probably still be doing it.. id wait for them to go broodless then do hit of oav then pack them. I've got to many units now id need a barn just for the wraps . Looks perfect for the hobbiest should sell .. hit that bee expo get a both
It is definitely perfect for the hobbyist - We recommend at minimum everyone should insulate the top of your colony with 2" foam. 1" minimum in northern climates, but 2" is better.
I run a deep/medium set up to overwinter. Would I order a double deep and try to trim to size or a single HH pushed to the top and wrap the lower portion in another insulation?
Adopting the ZEST hives principles will do what you want to the point of being functionally free of varroa. It is a horizontal hive made out of aerated concrete blocks which gives both insulation (39 times better (R) value than a traditional thin walled vertical wood hive) and a bee pupation period that is shortened by up to 3 days, allowing the varroa less time to mature and hatch from the cells, reducing their numbers below replacement level. With top entry it is also a naturally humid hive being up to 20% more humid,...... which varroa also do not enjoy. This part is well known.
I saw where you had applied for the grant. I was going to apply for one to build bee barns. They are insulated also, and on utube but with your data I will go with a modified bee barn. I am trying different ways of controlling mites and maybe go for a grant next year. Your data is just what I felt would happen. I call people like us citizen scientist's.
Any idea when your products that show out of stock will be back in stock?
Where can be get the sensors mentioned in the video for temperature and humidity reading?
I would like to see research that confirms bees in the wild/trees do not form clusters.
It is all based on temperature of the interior of the hive. If their nest has the R value to allow for less bees to be working to heat the space there will be less clustering. I have polystyrene hives that I checked on a 32° Fahrenheit day in February, it has a plexiglass inner cover so I can see the bees without disturbing them. If there was a cluster it was down in the bottom box because there was 10 frames being covered in the top deep and they were wondering around like it was the middle of September in the 50s.
Why take insulation off? Wouldn't it help them make more honey in the warm season too? Are there studies on that?
some people don't take insulation off and have great success. Just like in the nature, in the tree. However they use different hive construction. If you keep hive hugger in summer it gets in your way at inspections and may not last long as foam boards are not as forgiving as pine boards. :)
What are the wrap dimensions?
Probably if my hive is one inch thick and it has a R value of two or three. Then I would need four times the R value on top to get 75% difference to get inside walls to condense.
Ive sent your other talk thru to my beek association they are all about ventilation and they get alittle upset when i talk about the nectar footprint of the normal thin walled hive.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you...😎
Keep fighting the good fight! I’ve been spreading the good word for five years at my local Bee club. This year most of the members no longer do upper ventilation.
Would there be any adverse effects to having an entrance reducer on a well insulated hive?
Some beekeepers reduce the entrances - if you think about a honey bee cavity in a tree - which the condensing model seeks to replicate, their entrances are small.
But in the case of a man made box, the cushion of cool air under the cluster helps them retain and control the heat above it. The wider open entrance creates that environment.
JUST DONT VENT THE TOP!!!! Venting causes them to expend more energy at a higher cost - they use less stores and have more control over the hive temperature. Venting is like a hole in your roof with your front door open - the heater will run non-stop. You will keep warm, but at a far greater cost than if you shut the door and close the hole in the roof. We can't shut the front door - as the bees need it - but you see the point!?
Opa já me escrevi 👍
I tried to follow the link to order bit there was no "note" place to put in the 11%discount code? Glenn
Send her an email beethechangemn@gmail.com
The fact that professional bee keepers move their hives into barns in winter plus in Slovenia bee hives are traditionally kept in large bee huts all year round with just the fronts exposed to the elements speaks volumes. As Randi Oliver said " Try leaving your front door and upper windows open in your house in the middle of winter and see how you feel"!
Think how small bees are, then come to your own conclusions of whether bees do better with or without insulation??? Bit of a no brainer!!!
Yep, the Russians do same thing! Here in America we have tons of $$$ and very creative in ways to spend them all. :D Jokes aside, this great product is designed to help recreational beekeepers with few hives on a small property. You would be surprised as how restrictive life in US. You simply can't do many things on your own property if it is small < 5 acres. In Russia it is not an issue. Not sure about Slovenia. Hope it helps to see the life can be different and the same "solution" may not fit all.
If in cold climate hungry bees can not move over by one frame and get access to honey. How is it possible? Bees leave a 16-degree cluster and go to the edge of the Hive at -20 degree for a drink....
This is why wintering practices in Northern Climates should include ensuring plenty of honey/stores readily accessible to the honeybees. In an insulated/condensing colony, the inside is MUCH warmer and they are capable of moving around more readily because of the retained heat.
Anyone that actually researched insulation rather than bees it’s easy to find the root cause of moisture
What is the root cause in this case? We're intrigued?
I am everytime baffled that so many people in the americas use those extra insulation techniques, here in europe it isn't a practice that is often used, not even up north in scandinavia and high up in the alps. Only form of insulation thatbisbwidely used is on top the crown board. For ventilation the bottom with varroa gass is left under the hive, no heat loss and good ventilation barely extra feed use. In fact bees that winter warmer in better insulated hives actually use more food, a good firm winter cluster barely loses heat
Here in europe we consider a hive loss of 30% very high.
Please include Ukrainian subtitles!!!!!