Episode #22 The Programming Podcast (Part 1): Why HARDER does NOT = BETTER!
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- čas přidán 26. 03. 2018
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Whew, had to fix some audio (it's not perfect, but we're woking on it) and re upload it, but here it is! Hope you like it!
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Barbell Medicine Do you see involving chains and bands in the future??
Sometimes I find this all very confusing... :( I myself made my best gains (talking about purely muscle mass, NOT absolute strength in the powerlifting movements) training just 1-2 times a week (HIT style/approach), performing a single all-out set in the 60-90 second range (TUL/TUT) and 10 rep range. 5-7 exercises (rotated them in an out, regularly). Again, I definitely got stronger, but not as strong as when I did SL5x5 or SS, etc. But muscle mass gains were much more significant than on other approaches. That said, DOMS was a real problem and recovery took 3-5 days. After a workout, I was completely spent and sometimes was barely able to drive home. However, strength still went up (slowly), though. Same applies for my training partners (and anecdotally all the people online who also follow a HIT style approach to training). This seems to fly in the face of what is being said here, to some extent (although I know they are primarily focussing on powerlifting and related performance metrics). Very confusing...
You might be one of those outliers that get better results on a HIT style of training. Or, it could be that the hypertrophy programs you ran before the HIT one, simply weren't good (for you, at the moment). Plus, I think you compared the hypertrophy results you got from strength programs to a hypertrophy one (this being the HIT one), which isn't very fair for the former.
@@carnivorehitman were you following any particular program? I had some good results with DC training
As a math grad, I like how you clearly define everything at a stripped down level before you delve into something. Refreshing change from typical youtube fitness channels which is extremely hand-wavey and vague.
David Van Legendary
Well most yt dudes arent scientists even if they always pretend to be - I guess if you are a pure math student its even more extreme but even in biotech it becomes secound nature in convo
Thanks!
Lol you mean ABZZZZ
Yeah they are SUPER specific when they speak about anything. For a lot of people, it's frustrating because they want a "best" answer, but "correct" answers are usually pretty fuckin nuanced. Even Aristotle ALWAYS defined his terms before he used them.
I love them for the same reason. Strongerbyscience also share this trait.
As someone who spends 2+ hour a day in the truck, I listen to MANY podcasts. This is by far my favorite.
Does the letters JRE ring a bell to you?
"it's a red pill - blue pill thing, except this red pill is actually wrong" I'm dead hahahah
You two are truly gentlemen for sharing your knowledge with the world. Thank you for taking the time to put this together.
Gentlemen, this is your best podcast yet. Amazing explanations with good examples and analogies. I've learned so much new that I had no idea about prevoisly. It's not necessarily intuitive for an inexperienced lifter that "you need more stress" does NOT equal "it needs to feel harder" - this greatly helps me end my LP with a clear conscience and switch to a more sustainable long-term approach.
47:25. " What did you do in the intervening 12 weeks?" Ow... my pride....
This is the most informative podcast channel I've ever come across. Love it
One of my favorite podcasts. Thank you.
A podcast on load selecting tips for the longevity and efficacy of accumulating necessary volume as Dr. Baraki mentioned near the end of the video would be awesome. Unless you guys already had this information out there somewhere, then ignore this. I'm new to this community and still very overwhelmed by the quality and quantity of useful information that you guys are putting out. Thank you for your work!
"baraki eye scale" omg LOL
Jordan hit the bulls eye on the wearable tech
Great episode. I’ve had success adding a few reps every time I have to “re-set” running LP so I’m slowly accumulating work capacity over time. For example, my work sets for squat are 5,5,5,4. Great content guys!
So many comments about how informative the video is which I completely agree with but the editing and audio is incredible. So many people have the other podcaster on their screen as opposed to recording both people at the same time. Much higher quality. Good job guys
Great content and entertaining presentation. Listening to smart people talk intelligently about topics they are both knowledgeable and passionate about is a pleasure. You guys are fantastic.
Thanks for this J & A. Such a interesting topic that is top shelf info for those of us thirsty for the well shot of knowledge on strength.
I'm picturing Austin taking a bunch of pre-workout before his shift and just getting CRAZY hyped at all his patients, making the sound and face from that one clip of him squatting. You know the one. Probably while actually squatting his heaviest patient of the day.
Great information! Thanks for this. Very much looking forward to the next installments. And I hope you are writing a book...
Very informative.
Thank you!
PS great vid as an s&C coach I couldn't agree more on your thoughts of volume increase rather than intensity once a certain intensity training base is reached. Then every now and then swap back to intensity cycle to resensitise the stimulus
Excellen content, guys, thank you
Great podcast! Looking forward to future content.
My fav podcast yet. on ya's
Another great episode!
Are ALL of those your shoes, Jordan?!?
100% agree with the length of a taper, a lot of people taper for too long.
Interesting to hear about fatigue and the different aspects.
Baraki mix grips the same side as me. Life: complete!
Great stuff!!!
Interesting subject guys keep them coming! Also could you make your program slightly more smart phone friendly? I have your press program and can't use it on my phone but I downloaded on the computer and it works there. I just like having the program on me in the gym.
I can’t remember if this was mentioned or not and I know I’m little late here ( 2 years) but I think it’s important to mention that if HRV does have any validity and reliability in fatigue measures, it’s probably a better indication that you should’ve have a reduction in training stress long before you see the variability in RHR, not that you see the change then react. Basically when you see the change on RHR it’s too late
The next time I watch this video, it won't stress me as much.
In case anyone was wondering, this dude's name means 'Fig Tree'. I like it.
That was really nuanced
Geez how is this not the most highly subscribed fitness channel on CZcams??? More glute kickbacks maybe? Keep up the great work fellas
THIS (love u guyzZz)
Good stuff
The information here is good and all but what I'm most intrigued and curious about is...how many pair of shoes does Jordan have??? Look at that shoe rack!!!
Has the UpToDate article been released yet? Thinking about getting a short-term subscription so I can read it. Very interested in the volume threshold for the mentioned health issues. Also, excited to hear part 2.
Should be published sometime this summer.
You guys are the Kant and Hegel of fitness
So who's Marx? Rip?
The real question is why can you do something that's very hard and not progress? If you've adapted to the stress, why doesn't what you're doing just become easy? Why does it continue to feel subjectively difficult? That's what confuses people, if it felt easy, they'd change intuitively.
If you're actually stadily getting stronger, what you did in the past (3 months ago for example) IS easier for current you by definition. However, if what you're doing RIGHT NOW was easier than what you did in the past, it wouldn't constitute "stress" to temporarily decrease your performance for you to subsequently recover and adapt.
Example: Your 1@8 from 3 months ago is 300 lbs. Your current 1@8 is 350 lbs. So, a single at 300 lbs is by definition easier for you right now than it was in the past. But 350 lbs right now is as difficult as 300 lbs was in the past. Very important to pay attention to what exactly you're comparing.
Could anyone ELI5? What's the correct approach after a Novice Linear Progression?
Fuck and I thought I was below average ending my LP at squats 355...talk about noceboing myself Austin is a beast
Very good video
a separate thought: you sell higher volume as primary driver of useful stress for intermediate lifters. I agree it is easier to scale than weight. At the same time you say that too many reps at the same stress level will cause adaptation and de-sensitization. Should I read that as variability is build into RPE + assistance exercises. That is, you will change weight for RPE8 quicker than you will get desensitized? plus, of course, lift variants help stay "fresh" and sensitive to the stress
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me.
I love the information you guys put out.
Just bought the hypertrophy template from your website. Great template and love the features like the built in calculator.
Ok, so here is my however...I want to know more about what you guys know and think. Clarifying that there are other methods or opinions is fine but too much time spent on it. There is a lot of different problems and programs out there. Got it. Here is what B.B. MED thinks and why!! Ok sorry but I do you love your knowledge just want to hear more of it. Thanks
David Henry hi David I just also bought the hypertrophy template and I use it on my phone with the excel app. This program is somewhat confusing to me for whatever reason. Could you possibly explain the day 1 week 1 to me? And is this just a 3 day per week program? Thanks.
kyle Keech you still need help?
@@kylekeech1336 sorry I missed this reply - I know it is a long time - but anyway Like Matt M says if you still have a question let me know - sorry again
Since the elderly are more anabolic resistant do you recommend even bothering with the SSLP for that population? Aren't they likely to stall out way more early than say a 22 year old?
Would a better approach in that cohort be to go for more volume right out of the gate, with less intensity?
Hopefully I am making sense here.
I'm a bit late to this, but the elderly can undergo a linear progression just the same as a young person. The difference is that the elderly linear progression is done every week rather than every session, and the elderly would be doing sets of 3 instead of 5. Additionally the elderly would use smaller jumps (1-3 lbs in some cases).
I started getting lost when there was talking of testing for adaptation. What does RP8 mean?
RPE is rate of perceived exertion. A RPE of 8 means you could do 2 more but not 3 more it's essentially how difficult was it from 1-10
Hey lads what's the progress with the up to date stuff? I'm in my final year at pt school and would be a great resource to link my educators and lecturers to who don't really get what proper resistance training is and how it works
Should be coming out this summer.
Okay, so I only caught bits and pieces. Im supposed to inject my grampas slin in another room and then carb load infront of my friends 4 gainzzz? Do I inject 5 units, 3 units then 1 unit or just 5s?
A pictorial representation would really help :)
Great video
Right fuck you
Great episode, very informative. Would you guys, please, talk about streching, for recovery or otherwise? Does it do any harm? For instance,. if I were a martial artist, and needed to be able to do high kick, would the "splits" be detrimental to my strength GAINZzzz(RX)? Would it help? Unconclusive?
André Graça Is suggest practicing High kicks. Slowly increasing height over time will be more direct (specific) and beneficial to increasing the height kicked.
@Alex Minor, I appreciate your input, however, your suggestion doesn't hit the target. I am more interested in the general interaction between strength focused resistance training and "stretching", e.g. flexibility training (really, training, with an increase in range of motion as a goal). What I mean is, I am not trying to kick higher, I want to know how does training one thing affect the other thing. Thanks a bunch, though! :)
Feigenbaum, how many shoes do you own?
I love these videos but can't help but get depressed since being told by my Gastroenterolist and rheumatologist I will never gain any more muscle and especially since they upped my dosage of laxatives and its just fucked me up.
Do carbohydrates help or inhibit recovery? People told me that carbohydrates increase inflammation and therefore, a low carb diet gives you the benefits of a better recovery. Is that correct by any means?
Depends on context. For decreasing acute fatigue they might be useful and for calorie intake overall, they probably help more than an isocaloric dose of fat (protein being held constant). Carbs don't increase inflammation.
HRV for strength training, fascinating. I thought to do it properly requires Fourier transforms that require a lot of processing power...more than a portable device would allow
plenty of cheap low power devices exist that can perform an FFT, either on FPGA or a peripheral on a microcontroller. STM32F series can be had for $1, and if they can handle radar processing (they do) I think they can handle heart rate :P
Technology these days...!
Would you put athletes in the "old people" category needing more sets at a lower intensity? Generally?
Great 🖒
Much nuance
the BES is probably the most accurate haha
can you use heart rate (in % of mean rest) as proxy to RPE?
Eh, it can be used in conjunction with it (RPE) and pace in endurance work.
Thank you guys for giving away this knowledge for free. Nothing against Jordan, but maybe let Austin talk a little more? He manages to bring things to the point. I myself struggle with this and it’s enjoyable to see how easy it is for some people like him.
We let Austin talk as much as he wants to. It was frowned upon when we put a gun to his head and told him to talk more, but we could try again.
love you guys :)
On foam rolling, even though i am not selling it, if you go just read abstracts, it seems that it works www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=foam+rolling Interestingly(tm), in one work 2x increase in amount of rolling didn't increase effects, so maybe rolling is OK but very low magnitude effect. But then I am not sure what's the difference between foam-rolling and warm-ups/downs
It does not do anything objective in a reliable manner. Foam rolling continues to be bogus.
What's the best course of action (diet and programming) for introducing post menopausal women to strength training? Thanks in advance for any responses.
David Hyam Same as anyone else
Austin Baraki thank you.
When are we going to get a "nuanced" t shirt
We already had a limited run. :-) They sold out fast!
Leah Lutz what? man i missed out lol.
I missed that, too. Would love a "What are you gonna do, not train?" shirt.
I've heard you say a couple times you don't recommend the Texas Method but I'd really like to know why (in broad strokes) exactly?
startingstrength.com/article/into-the-great-wide-open-the-texas-method-and-5-3-1
Nice one
Preferred this intro music. Great podcast, more of this, less Q&A
Dude is Jordan really in his closet in Austin is really in the hallway in some tenement building LOL?!
What about the stress an ice bath creates and you’re body’s ability to overcome that stress? Wouldn’t that infer a stress (different to training but potentially neurological stress) that you’re body has overcome and developed a larger work capacity to stress due to the adaptation? Just curious because I love the ice bath.
Sure, you get better at tolerating the ice bath by being exposed to it- but it doesn't do anything from a performance standpoint.
Now that I know how Jordan spends his vacations, I wanna hang out with these guys even more
As a 60 year old novice lifter, I bailed on the SSLP since I didn't want to trash my joints on high intensity sets and my form was deteriorating. So I switched to 3 sets of 10 and I increment 2.5 lb when I hit 30 reps cumulative. Is this a reasonable amount of volume to drive progress? I train each compound lift twice a week and probably drive each set to RPE 8 or 9.
Jamie Moore have you read the barbell prescription?
Yes, cover to cover. There is a lot of valuable info in it but it is the epitome of what is discussed at the end of this podcast as far as programming. Scaling back volume and maxing intensity for older lifters which I find both from a logical and physical experience standpoint not suitable for me. I tried it for two months and found pushing the limits on loading was killing my form and I was essentially lifting at RPE 10 on the last set.
Ah I see, as you could probably guess I haven't read it but have just heard good things about it. Sorry it couldn't help.
Yes, I was referring to Sullivan's and Bakers book, not BB Medicine.
This is amazing! Keep up the great work! Btw “bone on bone grinder” sounds really NSFW.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
In the podcast, you state that there is literature/data which demonstrates a clear volume threshold for many of the health benefits associated with exercise or resistance training. I know that one threshold that gets promoted a lot is the recommendation to get 150 minute/week of moderate exercise or 75 minutes/week vigorous exercise. Are there similar guidelines specifically aimed at resistance training? I don't think I have ever seen anything like that. Do you have some references handy?
My own experience with post LP programming is that keeping the intensity high while curtailing volume didn't gain me much, and typically ended with injuries. So I am sympathetic to the idea of using more volume at a somewhat lower intensity. But I am very confused about how, exactly, to turn this into a viable program. I've downloaded The Bridge and looked through it. My initial impression is that you use a lot of exercise variation, and the variations seemed aimed at improved power lifting or strength lifting performance. As someone who is old (65), dealing with some chronic injuries that limit exercise selection, and mostly interested in general fitness and health, I wonder if you will eventually put out anything that would help someone like me develop programming that uses volume and intensity more sensibly? Or do I just have to pay someone for programming?
Figueiredo et al. Sports Medicine 2018 March
Figueiredo VC, de Salles BF, Trajano GS. Volume for Muscle Hypertrophy and Health Outcomes: The Most Effective Variable in Resistance Training. Sports Med. 2018 Mar;48(3):499-505. doi: 10.1007/s40279-017-0793-0. PubMed PMID: 29022275.
glad this is up
Thank you!
Hey Dr. Feigenbaum,
Do you think there is an average amount of time training where 3x/week is no longer sufficient? Perhaps, though, is the answer more nuanced than that and goes on a case-by-case basis? If this is something you've already answered, I'll find it and read the response there. Thank you!
Even more so, your question was a nuanced caveat, does that make sense?
well to put it simple : per session volume just has to decrease when per week Frequency increases to stay overall (in a week) within an amound of total weekly volume/stress that can be recovered (not to mention time of elevated MPS etc)
Its not like you hit advanced phase and HAVE to train 4x a week
I was just asking if the data suggests some type of ballpark for if such a time frame exists, not like an arbitrary amount of time!
Austin Brunette
Oh sorry then I misread your question - but there is at least some data on pubmed just search for 'resistence training/frequency' and it should pop up, schoenfeld did some I think
Its a shit study design tho as always
I probably wouldn't agree that per session volume HAS to decrease when frequency goes up, as total stress needs to increase and decreasing one variable that imparts stress (fq or vol in this case) requires a substantial increase in the other variable. I would also reject the "intermediate' and "advanced" training designations and a training resistant person would likely have to train >3x/wk.
Great videos guys can u do a video can u guys do a template for advance lifters who sqaut over 500 deadlift over 600 and bench 350 please ?
Guessing we won't see any wearable tech sponsors lol
Dr. Feigenbaum says vegan in the video, but what he means to say is "vaygaaan."
Lmao
Jordan, where's that long-sleeve from?
Garrett Steinbrink idk about his but I got a couple like that from Target
+Garrett Steinbrink Really, nigga? lol
This episode sponsored by Downey spray!
11:42 Bettier 🤣
I need that on a shirt.
Since I 'finished' LP at what I think was a reasonable point, I like to think of LP as much of 'finding out how strong you are by default' along with building a little bit of extra strength along the journey. Not sure there's any actual truth in it, but I think it might slightly tie in with what you guys were saying about individuals being able to handle different ceilings of training stress from LP alone. Thanks for the great content.
Awesome episode. I stuck with SSLP longer than I should have but have had much better results on Juggernaut since switching over. It sounds like Juggernaut meets your training principles much better than SS or TM?
I don't think JTS has a novice plan and we don't like TM so...maybe?
Thanks! Yeah. I definitely believe it was good to do the SSLP before starting a periodized program, but I also believe I stuck with SSLP too long. Grinding through heavy fives for so long gave me a nasty tendinitis in my left quad, an aching SI joint, and the last straw was an acute rib injury.
Switching to JTS and going through a wave of low intensity and very high volume cleared all those injuries right up. And by the final wave my maxes had all increased substantially. I’m now finishing my second run through JTS and the progress and overall health are phenomenal.
The lesson for me was that true beginners should definitely start with the LP but not hang onto it any longer than necessary.
So many shoes
These guys don't suck
Hi I got your email for stalled upper body lifts on the novice progression and just wanted to confirm the routine.
Workout A
Squats per SSLP
Bench x 1 @ +5% from last 5 x 3 sets on LP, then take 15% off the bar for 5 reps x 5 sets
Deadlift per SSLP
Press x 8 reps x 4 sets @ -12% from previous press 5 x 3 sets on LP
Workout B
Squats per SSLP
Press 1 @ +5% from last 5 x 3 sets, then take 15% off the bar for 4 reps x 6 sets
Power Cleans or Rows per SSLP
Close grip bench x 8 reps x 4 sets @ -15% from previous bench press 5 x 3 sets on LP
Am I going to do a single with 5% more weight than my last 3 sets of 5 reps then do 5x5 with 15% less weight than the top set for that day for the first pressing movement?
hyuwot m8 yep
Ok thanks. You said when SSLP stops working for the squat and deadlift that you should switch to The Bridge. Since you guys are not a fan of "running it out" do you mean when squatting 3x5 3x per week and deadlifting 1x5 3x per week stops working? Doing the standard thing of having a light day for squats and reducing deadlift frequency to 2x per week would reduce the work capacity of the lifter.
you should not be deadlifting 3x a week after the first two weeks of training. read the book.
I'm asking about when they consider the reduction in DL frequency to be inappropriate. Is it when you go from 3x per week to every other workout? Is it from when you go from every other workout to once per week? If a lifter is going to continue making progress on the DL doing it 3x per week why would you reduce their frequency just because they have been doing it for 2 weeks?
hyuwot m8 you don't reduce the frequency if you are making progress. Again, read the book - it explains this in there
Can you explain once more why more weight on the bar does not qualify as a novel stressor? You talked about it but I did not quite understand.
I think it's because the body gets less sensitive to increased weight over time (increased load becomes less novel with each exposure), so deloading is used to re-sensitise the body to that specific stimulus, for a few weeks. So it's not that it isn't a novel stressor, rather it gets progressively less novel, so your programming should account for this, for example by using deloading at intervals appropriate to your particular sensitivity to the "increasing load stimulus" (young meat-eating males on a calorie surplus with good sleep hygiene, for example, won't have to deload as often as old vegan ladies, I THINK; or perhaps I'm mixing things up. Hopefully someone confirms or denies this).
reignator It is a stressor in the sense of accumulating stress in a series of workouts; however, utilizing the weight on the bar as the main indication that you are getting stronger is not optimal for several reasons, most of which are explained in detail in the podcast. One of my favorite reasons is that rep maxes tend to impart more stress than is worth the time it takes to fully recover from. For example, it is more productive in the long run to perform 5x5 at RPE 8 than to hit 1x5 at RPE 10. This is true, because if it wasn't, then we would just all be hitting 1RM every training session to get stronger. This was mentioned in the podcast about recovery at 59:45 Hope this helps!
what about periodizing intensity and volume
vteam02 What about it? Be specific.
Sorry for the late reply. This video mainly talked about stress, like how novice LP will eventually not be enough stress. I had asked because periodization was not explicitly mentioned in the video. As you know there are many periodization strategies. Since Part 2 isn't out yet I guess it might talked about there and I asked too soon, but it would be nice to hear what you guys think is good periodization strategy,
14:29 I think this is true if you follow the program properly. But YNDTP(eating and sleeping) is the main reason I think most people stall on LP.
Well If you are on caloric surplus excessively, any average program could generate positive outcome due to its volume. That's not the point.
If you have a job, YNDTP
Alex Minor if a program requires you to eat 6000 calories. Its not a good program.
How can you make sure you don't have sleep apnoea? If you have it aren't you just kinda fucked? Is there even any treatment??
What does LP mean?
Linear progression
I thought this was about computer programming?! I was wondering why those programmers looked like they might lift a little.
A little, haha. They squat over 500. Just shows you that strength doesn't correlate 1:1 with size
AB "I haven't failed a rep, in training, in probably 3+ years of training" Anyone else catch that?
Yes at the very end. Once you adopt RPE based training and solid programming, failure isn't even a thing anymore.
@@brois841 shouldnt you be pushing your limits? I dont understand why not failing would be good. Is it just injury prevention?
@@jackedkangaroo1948 no, it's just that when you push too hard, near your max (RPE 10), you have to wait longer to recover (your strength curve goes down temporarily). Since ideally you want to train as often as possible, you want to stay in a range of weights that's challenging, builds muscle and strength, while also allowing you to recover and repeat (or increase) the effort for your next training day.
4 mins in still not sure if theyre talking about programming or bodybuilding
!!!
How to recover better... "You could take ALL the drugs" hahaha
All of them!
Can you overtrain in the hospital? I mean, by carrying sick people from one bed to another or measuring blood pressure all day? Or do you outsource this to nurses and the doctor just looks at MRIs? :D
Sales tool, Like gains RX then ?
Mark Filby not really, as there are actually useful things in Peri Rx
things not found in whole food diets ? what makes you not a snake oil salesman in comparison to any other online ? It even says on the label not evaluated by FDA, where is the stuff made and whats the Markup ? do people make less gains if they don't use this product ?
Correct- things not found in whole food diets in consumable quantities like creatine, beta alanine, betaine, HMB, etc. The FDA does not evaluate any supplement's claims, but the industry is regulated by them. The "stuff" is made in Atlanta and the markup is about 1/2 of the industry standard. Will you make less gainzZz if you don't use the product? I think there is reasonable evidence for the included supplements to suggest that you'd do better if you were to supplement with the ingredients at the specified doses. Since I'm not selling anything fraudulently- quite the opposite, in fact- I am not a snake oil salesman (sales person?). In any event, I hope this moment of Internet clarity is helpful to you.
Barbell Medicine some might say the whole supplement industry is scam, if you where to get even a 2% gain in any aspect of your training would it be worth the asking price ? I suppose the made in America tag is somewhat better than China, is there not a large amount of creatine within red meats ? Also with Some of ingredients you listed, I assume there non essential given that would make me deficient if I where not to buy in ?
Saying "hopefully you'll see a small benefit" in the advertisement is a funny way of selling snake oil.
Austin’s camera has some resolution. #sosharp #digitalnuance
Man I was hoping for an idea for what to do when I finish my LP. Thought I was in luck until they used an old vegan female as a second example.
Jordan has more shoes than a woman. 😂