Very cool to have a taxonomy of reed styles in mind! I cannot yet afford equipment to process tube cane, and so when I transferred schools I switched to buying the cheapest shaped cane I could find. It is discounted because the supplier gouges it a bit thinner, and their normal clientele does not find it as suitable. I noticed after transferring that over time (two years now) my backs have become stronger, and this would clearly explain why. Thanks for sharing!
Fascinating. I still have a Gordon Schoenberg oboe reed. Smooth long scrape. Disney riffs, Gillet riffs. Agility for hours, he’s right. A reed scraped by John Ellis too. Long scrape smooth tip not real heavy on the V on the tip. Since Mack many copied his windows style. It’s the gouge and quality of cane you’re right. So because of weather and the cane in the gouge I make the reed very long the first day and leave it alone. Several days in fact, I lightly Even all quadrants and I’ve never needed to make drastic windows so I think I’m old-school but I get good results for myself. Beethoven ninth it seems like you need heavy full prominent reed then at the same time all the agility and light stability to sustain all those highs C’s D’s and the high B-flat’s without any extra embouchure coaxing, the 6/8 in the 4th movement , it goes forever LOL. It’s a lot of fun with all the singers. Chops. Anyway, recording situations too, tone from response and agility if full register passages are testing your skills like Gillet, a lighter reed needed BADLY and finishing the reed slower gets you more reeds, that handle anything. Great Fireside, so to crow. I’ve been exhumed. The cane is wet.
I'm an european oboe player. Sometimes i make american style oboe reed from my old reeds (short scrape), and never had a good reed. Now i know that that's because i take too much material from back (and in use soft and thin gouge cane). Thanks
My heart needs to be much more moon shaped rather than V shaped. I add windows but lightly, much like your example of the 2. I use the RDG gouger 59 to 60 in center. I wish I could try your machine, maybe one day. The first gouger was Jeanné, which was a very nice feel, and now use it to pregouge to 70mm before the final gouge. In my experience it’s easier to get the vibration loosened faster by not contriving the V so much. And since every piece of cane can be different I always start with a smoother blend and waiting to define it the second or third day. Once I do get a reed playing beautifully it does last a long time, maybe for several rehearsals with 2 or 3 concerts. One concert hall I perform in is 1500 feet higher elevation and some reeds may feel like they haven’t been scraped yet, and light is so poor most places, I rarely need to balance heavy reeds on location, with at least several reeds broken in nicely already. Your videos are splendid, in any order. Kudos on the closeups. Thanks always.
Using a single radius gouger couldn’t one leave more cane in the spine on top of the cane while scraping to provide the needed support? Double radius gouger leaves a strip of softer cane in the middle/spine on the inside. With a single radius, leaving the harder cane on top (spine under the bark) , while scraping, could provide similar strength depending on the scrape? (provided same cane hardness) John Mack’s reed in Ledet’s book has hardly anything in the spine in the back of the reed. I never put much thought in how cane hardness/gouge could have affected the scrape of the reeds in Ledet’s book, thank you for this video.
Hello Land, it seems that the strength of the opening has more to do with the internal structure of the gouge and not so much with the the way one scrapes it. Yes, it is probably best to leave extra cane in areas where the reed would collapse and probably the reason why many European reed makers do not remove the bark in the back. This is not to say all single radius gouges are weak but generally so. The American Double radius gouge is an invention to combat the collapse of the reed when removing material from the back while maintaining the opening of the reed and the strength in the sides.
@@PierreRoyOboe I grew up with that David Ledet book and always wanted more insight on the functionality of the reeds. Really appreciate all of your great content.
I grew up playing on and making German-style reeds. HOW and WHY anyone would opt for the extraordinarily complex, complicated, fidgety style of American reed is simply beyond me.
Joe Maxwell because the reed is the instrument much in the way the buzz of the brass player is the genesis of tone, timbre, expression and articulation as well as other aspects of playing. I am simply clarifying the American style for American players. But also it is important to understand that the American style was born from the combination of the long scrape German reed and short scrape French. As for How and Why, its because generally speaking it is a blended combination of the best of both worlds. Its also not as complicated as you may have been lead to believe.
@@PierreRoyOboe Yes, you did an excellent job of clarifying the American style of reed making. I've tried the American reeds in multiple varieties and always had problems getting out low notes in particular. The sound of the American scrape is also quite different from the German/French style, see for instance Celine Moinet or Stefan Schilli in contrast to Izotov or King. For my taste, the American sound is too linear and focused, less complex. Thanks for the excellent video.
Thanks so much for this video, this makes a lot of sense. From your experience, how do certain professional gougers compare in strength? I’m initially thinking of Ross, Gilbert, Innoledy, and Graff right now.
Tyler. It really depends on how you want to make your reeds. However, I have to interject and recommend a machine that I really believe to be as good as any of the machines you mentioned if not better. My latest double radius is the finest gouger that I have ever used and I'm turning out some of my best reeds in half the time. My gouger works really well with all types of cane. It is very simple to use and you will find that your reed making will greatly improve. So I ask you to give it some serious consideration. I could go on about the other machines but I don't think the gouges they produce are as good as mine. And I have used them all.
@@PierreRoyOboe Forgive me if you mentioned this already, but I don't see the name of the gouging machine that you are currently using and recommend. I have only used an RDG.
You had posted an earlier video re the V in the tip where your focused on the importance of establishing the tip with a strong foundation (you basically scraped straight across - > clip to B -- > scrape a catch in the back - > clip to c crow - > put in v). Where does that style reed fall in the dichotomy you illustrate in this current video?
PierreRoyOboe Interesting. So presumably my setup is ok since that technique had really been working great for me. Cane is from Davjd Weber so that makes sense. However, what dimensions of gouge should I be looking for? And having made reeds with both set ups, which do you prefer?
You mentioned that the gouge/cane are what determine the reed rather than the scrape... I don’t have control over my gouge as I don’t own my gouger - how problematic could this be? I’m in rut right now, and I’m wondering if that could be caused by a less than compatible gouge....
Hello, I think it depends on the source. Some will tell you however much of it is single. It is quicker and easier to gouge en masse and there seems to be more of them. You may ask your supplier and they would probably know. Most of the European gouged cane is single. When you are purchasing from someone that uses an Innoledy machine than the assessment has more to do with the curve.
@@PierreRoyOboe Thanks very much. What I take from your response is that it will be difficult to make good reeds that have a deep window scrape unless one gouges their own cane or buys gouged cane that is known to be harder cane (smaller vascular bundles).
Hello, What are the functional differences between single and double radius gouge? I know double radius gouge is supposed to leave a spine in the cane, (and I've heard thinner sides too?)... I've only used single radius gouge cane before (on an RDG machine) and I'm wondering if it would be worth it to try double radius gouges... I'm doing OK with my current setup (10.5-11 mm cane gouged on an RDG machine, RDG-1 shape, 72mm Stevens #2 thick wall staples), but I'm still seeing if I could improve it - perhaps a double radius gouge could help? Also, in your experience, is staple brand supposed to have a significant effect on resistance? I used to use Loree AK staples tied to 73mm on RDG-1/RDG gouged 10.5-11mm cane, and it was extremely hard to get my reeds to start vibrating... Now that I've switched to using thickwall staples, it seems to be quite a bit easier, but perhaps there is another factor contributing to that... CK
Just skimming through your comments, you may want to try cane from 10-10.5mm. It might help the gouge abd give the reed a bit more life, vibrancy. I prefer a thinner walled tube myself but that could be just a personal thing. You are mostly correct about the double radius gouge. It helps with the spine and gives slightly thinner channels but I have used several Gilbert gouges and they are plenty stronge Im just not a big fan of the tone they make. The gouge for me substitutes vibration for strength. On the other hand there are single radius machinex that produce a beautiful tone but are incredibly weak. So much so that one can hear the weakness of the gouge in the playing. A really good double radius gouge like mine will give you both. I can send a cane sampler if you go to my site and purchase with paypal then you get a bunch of different canes and gouges of mine to try.
@@PierreRoyOboe I should be grateful for your expert feedback and that of your followers to the various chapters in my book 'Understanding the Oboe Reed'. I have devoted my Chapter 6A to explaining the structural requirement and strengths of the gouge (unlike Ledet, as you say), 6B to comparing each of the gougers commonly for sale, while Chapter 2A offers a straightforward analysis of the strengths and tensions that support the blades (in every style). When I have sold enough books to justify a second edition, I hope to incorporate as many corrections and recommendations as possible. A full description is at www.grahamsalter.com, and all oboists and interested musicians are invited to join and participate in our thriving new Facebook group facebook.com/groups/understandingtheoboereed/about/ . Thank you, and for your video.
Christopher. This is a good video but not complete. If your reeds are flat and sagging, thin the corners of the tip. For reeds that are on top or sharp sometimes the blend and areas behind the heart help.
It's been a while, but I didn't see this comment! It looks like for some reason, it wasn't under the previous thread, so I didn't get a notification... Thanks for the responses!
Wait! so Sprenkle/Gomberg are the New England style and Mack and Robinson are the other? IDK I think a more modern Fork would be Killmer v. Woodams v. Douvas v. Vogel v. Schuring.... There are so many lol
PierreRoyOboe it’s a good video thanks for posting! I just wanted to confirm because I got a little confused with what you were saying, is the sprenkle/Gomberg the weak gouge reed school or the strong gouge style?
Hey again, thanks for posting. The old school players generally speaking used either a lighter or weaker set up so their reed styles reflect that. Tabuteau used to gouge at around .56 to .59 in the center. I remember one of my teachers Al Genovese would talk about getting his gouge down to .57 so with that kind of setup it is impossible to take much out of the back. The notion of scraping against the gouge meaning (flatly) or as David Weber would do in his book and as I have studied with him, is a relatively modern approach but requires much strength or harder cane. Regards!
Very cool to have a taxonomy of reed styles in mind! I cannot yet afford equipment to process tube cane, and so when I transferred schools I switched to buying the cheapest shaped cane I could find. It is discounted because the supplier gouges it a bit thinner, and their normal clientele does not find it as suitable. I noticed after transferring that over time (two years now) my backs have become stronger, and this would clearly explain why. Thanks for sharing!
Fascinating. I still have a Gordon Schoenberg oboe reed. Smooth long scrape. Disney riffs, Gillet riffs. Agility for hours, he’s right. A reed scraped by John Ellis too. Long scrape smooth tip not real heavy on the V on the tip. Since Mack many copied his windows style.
It’s the gouge and quality of cane you’re right. So because of weather and the cane in the gouge I make the reed very long the first day and leave it alone. Several days in fact, I lightly Even all quadrants and I’ve never needed to make drastic windows so I think I’m old-school but I get good results for myself. Beethoven ninth it seems like you need heavy full prominent reed then at the same time all the agility and light stability to sustain all those highs C’s D’s and the high B-flat’s without any extra embouchure coaxing, the 6/8 in the 4th movement , it goes forever LOL. It’s a lot of fun with all the singers. Chops.
Anyway, recording situations too, tone from response and agility if full register passages are testing your skills like Gillet, a lighter reed needed BADLY and finishing the reed slower gets you more reeds, that handle anything.
Great Fireside, so to crow.
I’ve been exhumed. The cane is wet.
I'm an european oboe player. Sometimes i make american style oboe reed from my old reeds (short scrape), and never had a good reed. Now i know that that's because i take too much material from back (and in use soft and thin gouge cane). Thanks
My heart needs to be much more moon shaped rather than V shaped.
I add windows but lightly, much like your example of the 2. I use the RDG gouger 59 to 60 in center. I wish I could try your machine, maybe one day. The first gouger was Jeanné, which was a very nice feel, and now use it to pregouge to 70mm before the final gouge. In my experience it’s easier to get the vibration loosened faster by not contriving the V so much. And since every piece of cane can be different I always start with a smoother blend and waiting to define it the second or third day. Once I do get a reed playing beautifully it does last a long time, maybe for several rehearsals with 2 or 3 concerts. One concert hall I perform in is 1500 feet higher elevation and some reeds may feel like they haven’t been scraped yet, and light is so poor most places, I rarely need to balance heavy reeds on location, with at least several reeds broken in nicely already. Your videos are splendid, in any order. Kudos on the closeups. Thanks always.
Using a single radius gouger couldn’t one leave more cane in the spine on top of the cane while scraping to provide the needed support? Double radius gouger leaves a strip of softer cane in the middle/spine on the inside. With a single radius, leaving the harder cane on top (spine under the bark) , while scraping, could provide similar strength depending on the scrape? (provided same cane hardness)
John Mack’s reed in Ledet’s book has hardly anything in the spine in the back of the reed. I never put much thought in how cane hardness/gouge could have affected the scrape of the reeds in Ledet’s book, thank you for this video.
Hello Land, it seems that the strength of the opening has more to do with the internal structure of the gouge and not so much with the the way one scrapes it. Yes, it is probably best to leave extra cane in areas where the reed would collapse and probably the reason why many European reed makers do not remove the bark in the back. This is not to say all single radius gouges are weak but generally so. The American Double radius gouge is an invention to combat the collapse of the reed when removing material from the back while maintaining the opening of the reed and the strength in the sides.
Thank you for uploading this great video.
My Pleasure! I'm glad you find it helpful.
@@PierreRoyOboe I grew up with that David Ledet book and always wanted more insight on the functionality of the reeds. Really appreciate all of your great content.
I grew up playing on and making German-style reeds. HOW and WHY anyone would opt for the extraordinarily complex, complicated, fidgety style of American reed is simply beyond me.
Joe Maxwell because the reed is the instrument much in the way the buzz of the brass player is the genesis of tone, timbre, expression and articulation as well as other aspects of playing. I am simply clarifying the American style for American players. But also it is important to understand that the American style was born from the combination of the long scrape German reed and short scrape French. As for How and Why, its because generally speaking it is a blended combination of the best of both worlds. Its also not as complicated as you may have been lead to believe.
@@PierreRoyOboe Yes, you did an excellent job of clarifying the American style of reed making. I've tried the American reeds in multiple varieties and always had problems getting out low notes in particular. The sound of the American scrape is also quite different from the German/French style, see for instance Celine Moinet or Stefan Schilli in contrast to Izotov or King. For my taste, the American sound is too linear and focused, less complex. Thanks for the excellent video.
Thanks so much for this video, this makes a lot of sense. From your experience, how do certain professional gougers compare in strength? I’m initially thinking of Ross, Gilbert, Innoledy, and Graff right now.
Tyler. It really depends on how you want to make your reeds. However, I have to interject and recommend a machine that I really believe to be as good as any of the machines you mentioned if not better. My latest double radius is the finest gouger that I have ever used and I'm turning out some of my best reeds in half the time. My gouger works really well with all types of cane. It is very simple to use and you will find that your reed making will greatly improve. So I ask you to give it some serious consideration. I could go on about the other machines but I don't think the gouges they produce are as good as mine. And I have used them all.
@@PierreRoyOboe Forgive me if you mentioned this already, but I don't see the name of the gouging machine that you are currently using and recommend. I have only used an RDG.
You had posted an earlier video re the V in the tip where your focused on the importance of establishing the tip with a strong foundation (you basically scraped straight across - > clip to B -- > scrape a catch in the back - > clip to c crow - > put in v). Where does that style reed fall in the dichotomy you illustrate in this current video?
Ross Gombiner that works with a stronger setup
PierreRoyOboe Interesting. So presumably my setup is ok since that technique had really been working great for me. Cane is from Davjd Weber so that makes sense. However, what dimensions of gouge should I be looking for? And having made reeds with both set ups, which do you prefer?
Also, would love to see some internal blade dimensions of the two styles, esp the heart.
You mentioned that the gouge/cane are what determine the reed rather than the scrape...
I don’t have control over my gouge as I don’t own my gouger - how problematic could this be? I’m in rut right now, and I’m wondering if that could be caused by a less than compatible gouge....
Christopher Kim hello Christopher, the shape is also an important feature. Are your reeds sagging or on top?
@@PierreRoyOboe My reeds sag - I use an RDG -1 tip.
If a player buys gouged cane, how does one find out whether it is single- or double-radiased gouged?
Hello, I think it depends on the source. Some will tell you however much of it is single. It is quicker and easier to gouge en masse and there seems to be more of them. You may ask your supplier and they would probably know. Most of the European gouged cane is single. When you are purchasing from someone that uses an Innoledy machine than the assessment has more to do with the curve.
@@PierreRoyOboe Thanks very much. What I take from your response is that it will be difficult to make good reeds that have a deep window scrape unless one gouges their own cane or buys gouged cane that is known to be harder cane (smaller vascular bundles).
Hello,
What are the functional differences between single and double radius gouge? I know double radius gouge is supposed to leave a spine in the cane, (and I've heard thinner sides too?)... I've only used single radius gouge cane before (on an RDG machine) and I'm wondering if it would be worth it to try double radius gouges... I'm doing OK with my current setup (10.5-11 mm cane gouged on an RDG machine, RDG-1 shape, 72mm Stevens #2 thick wall staples), but I'm still seeing if I could improve it - perhaps a double radius gouge could help?
Also, in your experience, is staple brand supposed to have a significant effect on resistance? I used to use Loree AK staples tied to 73mm on RDG-1/RDG gouged 10.5-11mm cane, and it was extremely hard to get my reeds to start vibrating... Now that I've switched to using thickwall staples, it seems to be quite a bit easier, but perhaps there is another factor contributing to that...
CK
Just skimming through your comments, you may want to try cane from 10-10.5mm. It might help the gouge abd give the reed a bit more life, vibrancy. I prefer a thinner walled tube myself but that could be just a personal thing. You are mostly correct about the double radius gouge. It helps with the spine and gives slightly thinner channels but I have used several Gilbert gouges and they are plenty stronge Im just not a big fan of the tone they make. The gouge for me substitutes vibration for strength. On the other hand there are single radius machinex that produce a beautiful tone but are incredibly weak. So much so that one can hear the weakness of the gouge in the playing. A really good double radius gouge like mine will give you both.
I can send a cane sampler if you go to my site and purchase with paypal then you get a bunch of different canes and gouges of mine to try.
@@PierreRoyOboe I should be grateful for your expert feedback and that of your followers to the various chapters in my book 'Understanding the Oboe Reed'. I have devoted my Chapter 6A to explaining the structural requirement and strengths of the gouge (unlike Ledet, as you say), 6B to comparing each of the gougers commonly for sale, while Chapter 2A offers a straightforward analysis of the strengths and tensions that support the blades (in every style). When I have sold enough books to justify a second edition, I hope to incorporate as many corrections and recommendations as possible. A full description is at www.grahamsalter.com, and all oboists and interested musicians are invited to join and participate in our thriving new Facebook group
facebook.com/groups/understandingtheoboereed/about/ . Thank you, and for your video.
What school would Martin Schuring’s style identify with?
Hello Kaleb. I'm not sure but I think he and David Webber are good friends so I suspect it is a similar reed style.
I assume Philadelphia style since he graduated from Curtis .
His book looks like its tip first.... but I have never seen one of his IRL in person
Which type of cane do you use ?
Vlad Fedorov Hello, Ive been using Alliaud and Marion. It seems cane is very scarce right now so I tried Latium from Capital Cane and its ok.
Christopher. This is a good video but not complete. If your reeds are flat and sagging, thin the corners of the tip. For reeds that are on top or sharp sometimes the blend and areas behind the heart help.
It's been a while, but I didn't see this comment! It looks like for some reason, it wasn't under the previous thread, so I didn't get a notification... Thanks for the responses!
For europeans this tip is NOT short :)
Wait! so Sprenkle/Gomberg are the New England style and Mack and Robinson are the other? IDK I think a more modern Fork would be Killmer v. Woodams v. Douvas v. Vogel v. Schuring.... There are so many lol
True, but the point of the video is that one cannot scrape (against) a weak gouge.
PierreRoyOboe it’s a good video thanks for posting! I just wanted to confirm because I got a little confused with what you were saying, is the sprenkle/Gomberg the weak gouge reed school or the strong gouge style?
Hey again, thanks for posting. The old school players generally speaking used either a lighter or weaker set up so their reed styles reflect that. Tabuteau used to gouge at around .56 to .59 in the center. I remember one of my teachers Al Genovese would talk about getting his gouge down to .57 so with that kind of setup it is impossible to take much out of the back. The notion of scraping against the gouge meaning (flatly) or as David Weber would do in his book and as I have studied with him, is a relatively modern approach but requires much strength or harder cane. Regards!