D2R Skills & Abilities - Poison Dagger (Necromancer, Poison & Bone)
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- Hello Guys and Gals Today I am going to go over the Necromancer Poison & Bone Tree, Poison Dagger
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8:50 "as you can see"
No, we can not.
hah, yes I did mess up there lol
love the floating head man. Keep it in mind for Halloween.
I think this topic hits on one of my major issues with D2/LOD/ D2R...they put so many interesting types of weapons in the game that there is never any reason to use because spells get priority and have all the versatility. I mean daggers have so few uses in comparison to other items they are rarely seen being used. Same with clubs, war staves, and most of the throwing weapons. All of melee needs an overhaul but I mean they seriously need to bring a reason to use these assets into the game. Or remove some of them from the game.
I always wanted to make a viable Spear using Amazon but it simply gets so outclassed by a ranged weapon (shouldnt even be possible).
@@Nah_Bohdi exactly. There are amazing types of spears in the game and there is a class that is essentially designed to use them and you can barely have a viable build end game. Every class has this problem and there are just a ton of items that get no use during the game.
As a kid I loved to run around poking things with poison dagger using the Jade tan Do, or Blackbog’s Sharp.
Currently one of the crappiest skills in the game. Blizzard: please do what yo did with Barbs and shift this to "Poison Blade". They could leave a minus target defense bonus for daggers, but the poison attack should be able to be applied by any bladed weapon, even throwing (Edit: missile) weapons with 1/2 damage penalty. Also, give Poison Explosion a reduced version of CE's physical explosion blast!
Poison explosion*hold my beer* 🤣
I think the whole poison tree is fixed with a fundamental change to how the poison skills do damage. Pdagger gets to some crazy DPS numbers (~64k) with the right gear but you are left poking and waiting ~17 seconds for that single debuff to expire before re-applying. The same is true for PE which can do >100k dps but once the bitrate is applied the targets become functionally immune to the skill for the 16 second duration. They "fixed" the issue somewhat with Pnova and Venom by making them deal their damage over a short window, but at that point why not keep it consistent across all skills?
If they allowed multiple sources of poison damage to roll into a single debuff (or simply stack if the code allows) you could put up multiple stacks of PD on a boss and literally melt them; resulting in a risk-reward melee boss killing playstyle. Likewise the damage cloud from PE and Pjava would be lethal to anything walking through as they would get multiple stacks and likely not make it out the other side before ticking down.
Nah definitley needs added phy damage, AR, and unblockable
@@lbonvillain-wm4ds if it was changed to a weapon-range spell cast it would use the spell hit mechanic ignoring AR and also not using weapon durability. No leech though.
@@bobnewkirk7003 "some crazy DPS numbers (~64k)" That's damage number, not Damage Per Second which is exactly the problem.
Just found out today that daggers, javlins, and katars all get increased physical damage based on your dexterity. When you play a Poison Dagger Necromancer you're more like changing into a Thief type class. It's interesting for sure
This is the skill that I believe needs the most work in D2R. As you said, the playstyle of PDagger is antagonistic to the rest of the kit. The numbers work out to be a huge risk-reward play and potential boss killer if the poison debuff was allowed to stack and wasn't intrinsically broken. In order for this skill to function as intended the entire poison system needs a rework to include the ability for poison skills to stack and or roll into a single debuff. at present only the "strongest" poison skill on the target deals damage and all other sources of poison damage are either over-written or never apply to the target; it is a strict DPS loss to run 2 poison damage dealers in a single party. Additionally poison bitrate ticks need to be able to damage during frames where the target receives damage because at present it is better to run summonless for poison dps as the summon damage negates poison damage in the same frame.
Also you can get Venom on Andi's Visage (20 charges of lvl 3). as a pretty solid helm otherwise its not a bad option.
Edit: for changes to the skill, if we keep it as it, the biggest priority is the poison damage system fix. afterwards I would suggest making the skill a Casting skill with a melee range to eliminate the AR calculation issue as well as the weapon durability issue; this would maintain the theme of the skill. if we wanted to make the skill more functional for a poison build, I would generalize to be a cast on any weapon so you could run it with a bow for a ranged offering consistent with the other Necro skill's playstyle.
"As you said, the playstyle of PDagger is antagonistic to the rest of the kit."
Like how? Necromancer is one of the safest builds out there...
You have access to bone armor which absorbs physical damage and you have skeletons who act as meatshields... You can use your PDagger fine and safe with your sekeletons since monsters will prioritize them instead of you in vast majority of fights.
"at present only the "strongest" poison skill on the target deals damage and all other sources of poison damage are either over-written or never apply to the target; i"
When it comes to skills yes... but other forms of Pdamage get written into the skills.
Pdagger works very nice with venom for example since venom boosts PDagger damage.
Pdagger is already one of the best skills in Necro arsenal besides Pnova and CE.
Having a dagger that deals crushing blow and deadly strike like Fleshripper + your amp damage can deal alot of physical damage alone then Pdagger + Venom + Open wounds deal addition over 1.5k damage per second.
So yeah with the right gear you can deal around 3k with physical alone + deadly strike makes it 6k + amp damage at low end makes it 9k + poison effect 1.5k thats 10.5k per "strike" if crushing blow gets proc thats even more.
For a Necro thats a ton of damage more then bone tree or summoning tree.
@@greatdude7279 I appreciate your articulated argument but I disagree. The primary problem with PDagger (and by extension all the Poison skills) is the way the poison bitrate is calculated. Fundamentally you only deal damage on the first strike then every subsequent strike you only apply whatever on-hit modifiers you have on your build but do not add any additional poison damage. After the first hit you become a worse Smiter that requires IAS and AR to function.
In regard to the skill being antagonistic to the rest of the kit: PDagger is the only skill in the kit that has a melee range and hit requirement, every other skill operates from the safety of range, has guaranteed hit, and plays into the classes' overall "Glass Cannon" mentality. By forcing the player into melee range you are requiring the Necro to both gear to take and make successful hits, and into a playstyle of wasting time relocating with no innate movement abilities.
Additionally all of PDagger's damage is single target so at best you are a Elite Snipe/Boss killer and then you have to rely on other skills to do any sort of AOE damage, which all would benefit more from +skills and/or FCR than the equipped CB/OW/DS/Venom. As mentioned above, if you gear to focus on poison damage you get mediocre single-application damage at the cost of multiple high-runes, or if you gear to focus on melee damage you get worse performance than basically any other class with the same level of investment.
Lastly, in order to maximize Pdagger damage you have to invest minimum 62 points in BNB, and an additional 7 in Curses for LR. that leaves you only 41 points to build out whatever defensive option you want to take, which as you mentioned above would be Skellies and Armor without the synergies. Compare that to any other build and you have more baked-in flexibility and defensive options from not having to focus on building yourself for melee.
I think you can make a serviceable build, but its more cost effective to play basically any other build in the game. There are plenty of ways to make the build actually competitive, as I highlighted in the OP, but all of them require some sort of change to the core of the skill. Allowing Bit-rate to stack and/or removing the AR requirement would actually make me consider swapping over to PDagger for bosses on my PNova Necro, which would be a huge win for the skill imo, but untill then I'm not going to build for it outside of a meme.
@@bobnewkirk7003
"The primary problem with PDagger (and by extension all the Poison skills) is the way the poison bitrate is calculated."
Yeah I know but poison still continues to do damage in between the strikes.
Besides PDagger is not only poison but also physical and it gives you ton of AR to make those hits occur.
"PDagger is the only skill in the kit that has a melee range and hit requirement"
True but as someone who mains PDagger summoner in vast majority of fights I did not get attacked since monsters have aggro on minions.
"and into a playstyle of wasting time relocating with no innate movement abilities. "
Not true... as a summoner PDagger makes your kill speed faster... and no you don't do "hit and run" you and your merc kill 3 monsters and then CE everything else.
"Lastly, in order to maximize Pdagger damage you have to invest minimum 62 points in BNB"
I only max PD and PE and it works just as fine...
"additional 7 in Curses for LR"
Nope my primary source of DMG for PDagger build is PHYSICAL the PDamage is just a nice bonus.
I don't play stereotypical PDagger build the dagger I use is Fleshripper which has nice Physical Damage + deadly strike + crushing blow and open wounds.
Open wounds + PDamage + Venom work great togheter since they all apply Dmg over second and deadly strike + amp damage also work very well togheter.
Now when it comes to invetory you can use + poison dmg charms or + physical dmg charms or + lightning charms the 1-28 small ones works best.
Skillers don't work that well since the increase in dmg you get is small and they take up 3 spaces.
Now PDagger as a single target is a non-issue since the only skill that Necro has for AOE is Poison Nova and CE... The rest of the skills suck... Teeth does low dmg, spear does low dmg.
Playstyle is simple too... you amp monsters, then you start stabbing individual monsters until they die and start CE chain.
And the kill speed is faster then that of pure summoner or bone necro.
But slower then that of PN obviously.
But yeah when it comes on PDagger focusing on poison is kinda meh but once you get good dagger and focus more on lets say per strike DMG it works way way better and poison working in between is an additional welcomed plus. For example it takes me few hits to kill Wendigos or Megademons on p8 and I also have increased attack speed. My merc has Obidience and Bramble did use Fortitude however fortitude has a nasty habit of causing shatter to monsters so no bodies.
I can easily clear boss packs on p8 very easy... there were times when I was clearing Canyon on P8 and questioned myself if I am actually playing on P8 because me and my merc just melted maggots, crushers, cats etc...What saves PDagger form me is the + AR part and the fact that necro has AMP dmg.
@@greatdude7279 sounds like a more interesting way to play a summoner for sure. If your primary focus is skellies and CE and your functioning like a second merc I could see it working out as that first kill sucks on any summoner build.
I think there was some math about Pride being a trap for Summoner builds. Infinity gives the - defense for your skellies and boosts your CE damage so its probably a better play than Pride. I think it was either a GGM or Macro Video, though its been awhile so i'm not sure.
I'll have to see how it plays, but I'd still argue your not really using the skill as intended and so it could still use the rework; might make your build an even stronger option.
Great discussion and thank you for showcasing your build. Warren is dropping a Big Post about the Poison Damage bit rate issues (like he did for the NHD stuff on Mosaic) so hopefully it gets a look for the 2.8 patch. could make conversations like this super relevant in a couple months.
@@bobnewkirk7003
Yeah that was idea behind my build being a second merc.
I tried alot of different stuff even using obedience myself, using beast etc...
but PDagger worked the best as me being the second merc.
Because one thing Necro misses is AR and dagger is the only weapon that gets AR fron Necro.
I don't use pride on Merc I use obidence... sure you can get more dmg on CE but obidience DMG + AMP just drops bodies faster so you can CE more bodies.
I mean increasing your CE by lets say 5k is not that good as getting another body that has 15k HP which can at low end translate to 8k-9k dmg.
But overall the main idea was to drop bodies faster and PDagger does that job very well. I mean literally every NEcro build is centered around CE
This skill has so much potential
As a Poison Daggermancer, I concur. I typically use the Wizardspike/Wizardstrike as my dagger for the resistances, especially since it's indestructible and has a 50% FCR.
lol that love and marriage improve actually goood
Ginger let's talk turkey dagger needs alittle help. It really sucks it has to be a dagger maby if you could add it to any blade ie swords as well. I get not adding it to a maul but I think it could help. I by no mean want to break the game but just maby having dagger and posin explosion slow targets 10 15 20% would give these skills a little more to offer. Also if explosion worked like rabies where it could spread it could be an interesting concept. I know it won't be competitive but I've always wanted to make a posin dagger Necro for dueling.
EDIT: More thoughts. There are somany good ideas in the comments already as to changes for posin.
We need stacks. I understand the game would break if you could apply 14 stacks of posin nova before the damage timer runs out so let's try to meet in the middle. Each skill would need to be looked at and given a maximum stack amout let's say 5 on posin nova with a 10% diminishing return per stack. Just some arbitrary numbers so over 2 seconds 1st stack 1000 2nd 900 3rd 810 4th 729 5th 656.
Then we have posin dagger let's add it to any piercing wepon swords pikes spears arrows. I do like the idea of giving it an "Enchant" mechanic. Just an idea of more stacks but worse demonizing returns 10 stacks 12% per due to the length of the spell.
If they tracked the debuff separately you wouldn't have that many stacks of Pnova. at 75FCR you have a 10 frame cast or 2.5 casts per second so over the 2 second duration you could only get 5 stacks before the first drops off. at 125 you bump down to 9 frames or 2.75 casts per second which is still the same number of stacks with an occasional 6th, but you do it at the cost of damage as Dweb, enigma/bramble and 3trang cant be run together with 125.
Pnova only runs ~8k dps, so 5 stacks would be ~40k dps after 2 seconds of build-up which puts it about even with geared hammer damage. That being said I agree that there would have to be balancing post-fix but it really would only be un-doing the last 15 years of "Band-aids"
I was just putting out some ideas I know necs don't have the best frames. Just a concept as a way to bring these other skills up to par.
Wonder if the PoE devs did a thorough study of this game.
They had chaos damage over time as a basic poison mechanic, and they had poison itself which can be stacked multiple times. Instead of just poke and wait.
When PoE was in beta, Diablo II was specifically referenced. Those guys played D2 for sure.
I still would kinda like to build a poison dagger necro. I have a few random rare daggers that would work really well with that
My Pdagger buid:
Skills:
Summoner:
Max Skeletons
Max Skeleton Mastery
1 Point Clay Golem
1 Point Golem Mastery
1 point Summon Res
Curses:
1 point Amp
1 point Dim
Poison and Bone:
Max PDagger
Max Corspe Explosion
Max PExplosion
4 point PNova
Gear:
Fleshripper dagger, Spirit shield, Trechery (only for Venom proc), Enigma, Goreriders, Mara's, SOJ's, Trang Oul gloves.
Invetory... either go for high poison charms or +physial dmg charms don't go for skillers.
Poison charms will increase your PDamage more then a skiller.
So you decide what will works best for you.
You can go more physical route since you have deadly strike and crushing blow on Flesh Ripper and access to AMP damage.
Or you can go the DPS route posion + venom + open wounds + posion charms etc...
My PDagger build focuses more on Physical Damage as primary and Poison as secondary.
Plague runeword would be so much more awesome if it could be made in helms.
Poison explosion needs some serious love. Fire damage and a much better radius! Thanks
We had to goad them to get anything but swords!
Definitely a skill needing to be fixed ❤would be awesome if they made a plain mastery a hybrid like venom and a barb mastery/ sorcerous combo. I imagine the day you get a poison sword or bow necromancer.
Question. I'm running poison dagger. I use lower Resist. I hit them with a "hit causes monster to flee" dagger. The terror effect overrides lower resist. Does the lower resist still apply before they flee or does the terror come in before the damage?
I'm still in nightmare and the hit chance for flee I have is not 100% so it's hard to consistently test. Until I get a good unique dagger or can make Plague, I think terror daggers are the best weapons for poison dagger but if lower resist doesn't apply when terror procs, then it's going to be the worst
Yes and no because poison ticks multiple times it's odd, it will work somewhat but not completely.
Nice, a fellow "Married...with Children" fan? :)
Love and marriage love and marriage. Go together like the horse and carriage
@@GGMentor One of the best shows of my childhood and still a show I keep coming back years later on my Plex server. Glad you like it, dude! :)
(also - superb content - you have a great voice and I sneakily PiP-watch your vids while I'm leveling my SP characters!)
Which one's actually better, Fleshripper or Blackbog's Sharp? Fleshripper has enhanced damage and a ton of other bonuses, but Blackbog's gives bonuses to your poison skills.
Imo being able to land the hit is more important than the bonus skills. The -50% targets defense here is key and makes it so you will land hits on most monsters with ease.
Out of the two Felshripper.
Ghostflame would be better or any bite line dirk that you can gamble you can even get 300%+ enhanced damage.
People forget that poison dagger gives you alot of AR and as a necro you have amp damage.
I played around with dagger/summoner build and going for physical is way better then adding + poison.
Clear speed was faster then pure summoner but slower then poison nova necro on hell p8.
I had bone bite mithril point (upgraded it from rondel) which gave me 305% enhanced damage, treachery armor, gore boots, trag gloves, + summon amulet, circlet, spirit shield. I also invested alot into dex, might merc etc... basically I was doing around 1.2k to 1,7k (with might aura) physical + poison from poison dagger and venom.
The gameplay was pretty simple you amped monsters, stab them and then CE their bodies. Basically me and my merc were primary sources of damage.
They should rework the ability, and make it an enchant poison instead allowing necros to enchant their minions and party with poison damage
He was kissed by fire
Alrighty this was the last video from this guy ill ever watch. Said noone ever: could you explain that again. It was the singing this time. Pretentious.
Blackbog's Sharp is an awesome alternative. I did the rudimentary arithmetic, and it's nice.
I totally disagree with those being the only dagger options because Blackbog I feel is one of if not the best option. If you want max block you're going with the wrong shield you want homunculus. Also It doesn't look like you have max ias. This is why Blackbog is better along with being able to facet it.
they should allow it on throwingdaggers
Hey Ginger, I see in the video you use Poison Dagger and Poison Nova together, the damage from Poison Dagger stacks with Poison Nova?
no they don't stack, The Reason why in the video I am using them together Is one is an AOE Effect and the other is single target.
What I am doing is using the Poison Nova To Dish out AOE Damage to the monsters I am not actively hitting with Poison dagger. In this way I can attain a certain level of AOE Damage despite not actually casting the spell.
@@GGMentor Nice! for the Poison Dagger what is the best strategy ? stab one monster and go to other monsters while the poison damages the first monster? or shotgun hits in the same enemy? I mean consecutive stabs increase the poison damage or reset the damage?
@@SamielAC reset the damage, but remember you can also apply other effects with poison dagger since it is melee.
Crushing blow, open wounds, deadly strike, and even chance to cast like the poison novas.
I believe if they gave it a rabies styled buff, where it spreads.. could be more viable.. imagine this combined with a summon necro.. you walk in while your army has them distracted.. stab one monster and watch the poison spread .. still not as good as CE, but could be good for phy/fire immunity’s
agree. make it always hit like smite
Wich one of the 3 classes have the highest poison damage, assassin, necromancer or amazon?
In the history of Diablo 2, did Poison Dagger ever do more damage per second than Poison Nova? I remember killing Hell Diablo with PD, but that was a long time ago, maybe even classic D2 without LoD. And I don’t remember if it was due to PD having more damage or hit and run was a necessity due to Necro being fragile. Is there a website that shows those stats of previous game versions?
Anyways, the PD should have more damage than Nova. The entire poisonous potential of the necro focused into one target. It should also get a physical component. Maybe 1% of Critical Strike per hard point into the skill and 0.5% or even 1% of Crushing Blow per hard point.
Because poison dagger can apply crushing blow, open wounds, deadly strike, and chance to cast effects, as well as combine venom into it along with poison damage charms.
Yes Poison dagger will always do more damage vs a single target than poison nova.
@@GGMentor I am not talking end game here with BIS gear and charms. I meant the pure skill damage of nova and dagger. A long time ago (pre D2R) I crunched the numbers, and even combined with venom poison dagger was inferior to poison nova in terms of DPS. And that should not be in my opinion. The poison damage from PD should be more powerful in my book, preferably with shorter duration.
what if the merc procs venom if he is wearing treachery? does it still work the same as if we proc'd if?
make this work like combination of rabies - spreads between enemies and also like smite in so far as it always hits.
So basically poison dagger still sucks, and blizzard cant balance skills to save their life after 23 years, and yet we are going to all run out and pay 60$ for D4.
first
the Fury RW needs to give +5frenz MINUS THE BARB ONLY PART. maybe add a little pois -rez and the poison dagger necro would be GG.
it would probably smoke ubers too lmao. rush in, poke them once, and super-frenzy-run away and hide in a building or whatever. rinse and repeat. it would be a total KillerBee Build. swoop in sting and bounce lol