On test: best copper bullets for deer
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2020
- Firearms expert Andrew Venables has a guilty secret (innocent secret?). He prefers copper bullets to lead bullets. In this film, he puts copper bullets through their paces on a range, showing how they win on both accuracy and fillability.
Thanks to Tim Pilbeam for letting us use his range.
For more from Andrew, including his blog, visit the WMS Firearms Training website www.WMSFirearmsTraining.com
Have a look at these films with Andrew:
Lead-free ammo and clean kills • Copper bullets and cle...
Lead-free ammo and meat damage • Copper bullets and mea...
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I've been handloading the 150gr TSX for 4 years now for use in my 30-06. I am just under 3000fps at the muzzle and 0.5" 4 shot group at 100 yds. I have yet to recover a bullet whether it's been neck shots, 1/4 away heart and lung on deer and double lung deer at 440yds. They work great because they retain weight creating a deeper wound channel.
I have shot multiple cow elk at 400 to 435 yds with a .270win 130gr gmx and ttsx bullets. Both do the job very good. I wood use either up to 500yds any day.
Been shootn Barnes solid copper for 30yrs. Longer bullets of the same weight.
Hello I switched to copper 10 years ago having found lead flecks in undamaged meat. I did do experiments with copper and lead and chose the Barnes X at the time now the TTSX. More expensive compared to lead but more effective in knock down and penetration. One point I will make and I use my 30 years experience on animals for this. You are wrong to generalise in saying the lead bullet kills by fragmentation. Lead Bullets for deer are designed to expand, increase in surface area and retain their weight. It kills by dumping the energy into the animal causing damage. Fragmentation of lead bullets is an unavoidable side effect. However some lead bullets are designed for fragmentation. These are designed for pest control for fox and rabbit. Copper bullets for deer don't fragment but expand the surface area. It reacts quicker and does not lose any weight and provides an exit hole. Yes, it is a fact you have to use more speed on the bullet to get it to work and load it further from the lands to get great accuracy. BUT if you drive them too fast, the petals may brake off. The expansion effect is reduce and the hydraulic damage to meat will be excessive. I achieve quick clean kills with a 30 caliber bullet at 2800 for red, fallow, roe and muntjac. Quick kills without wasting 3-4 pounds of meat turned to jelly. I have to use a heavier bullet to do this. I would love to use 110 grain bullets and have the great accuracy but not at the cost of wasted meat. This is my experience with copper on animals and not just water. I use 30 caliber with 168 grain bullets to avoid excessive meat damage caused by smaller calibers and or faster bullets. This comes from my own experience of using .243 both lead and copper and butchering my own carcasses. If I kill an animal as part of a cull, I want to maximise its value as food. On a recent visit to my game dealer just before lockdown, I was thanked by the butcher for always providing clean chest shot carcasses. I do head shoot animals when it is appropriate but even chest shot muntjac are worth butchering. One observation from the early testing I did is that sometimes the exit wound will block with lung or other material blocking the exit wound and reducing the blood trail. On the plus side the copper bullets tend to knock the animal down much quicker. I do find the tip occasionally in the animal but no lead!!!
The change or preparedness for change is the way forward and your video is a great start. Your video will help change attitudes so we are prepared for the lead ban. Please don't confuse this comment with pure killing power. There has been many debates about small caliber high speed being effective killers and they are, so is a 50 caliber. All will kill cleanly even the smaller calibers, with good shot placement, but what do you get to eat? Perhaps the DSC2 should contain a section called "you killed it now you prepare it as food". Feel free to draw your own conclusions but always respect your quarry and don't waste its life.
I live, hunt, and hand load in Alaska. I have been hunting exclusively with monoliths for ~15 years. For 130 gr in .270 Win I like Barnes TTSX with 4350 or RL22 for Sitka Blacktail Deer, Dall Sheep, Black Bear and Caribou. For 180gr I like both Barnes TTSX and Nozler E-Tip with 4831 for big bull moose and grizzly bears. I can hand load TTSX for $30 per box of 50 bullets which is much less expensive than premium factory ammunition. I like monliths like TTSX and E-Tips because big exit holes are the norm and penetration is excellent as well as accuracy. Exit hole is especially important with bears, and penetration is important with big bull moose and bears.
Agree absolut. I use CNC turned cooper und brass bullets with drivebands for 12 years now, i love them. i trust them. i have shot aprox. 700 animals during this time! Flat shooting, great penetration, excellent killing.......
Hi I'm just getting into reloading with my cousins help. I'm looking to try 120 TTSX for my 7mm-08 for whitetail in the Northeast.
My shots are usually less then 100 yards but can be taken out to 300. I see that you are using 4350 or RL22. He was suggesting using Varget powder. This is all new to me and I was wondering if you thought the powder will be a good choice for my set up or if I should try one of the ones that you use? Ty
Here in the USA, most whitetail deer hunters .243 win with a 100 grain bullet .270 win w/130 gr .308 -150 gr 30.06 @ 300 win mag 150 gr. We do use sort tipped and ballistic tipped bullets for the most part. Here in Pennsylvania, for decades the most common cartridges as the 30-30 with rem core-lock 150 grain bullets but Federal Hi-shock are just as good and more accurate honestly. Good informative video and a copper bullet alternative.👍
Thanks. / Charlie
Let's start with this heathhalfhill6867 comment that shows whoever they are they are an East coast hunter when having a very unrealistic hunting ideas about all of the United States and the many types of hunting and how the US is so different from coast to coast and from mid-west.
Talk 100 east coast hunters together then 99 of those East coast hunters believe all of the United States is flat land as an Ohio bean field you can see to the horizon and everyone hunts from deer stand plywood huts on 20 high stilts with a BBQ hanging from the window and 2 24 cold packs of beer and an old comfy recliner chair in the deer hut to relax - drink beer and eat BBQ ribs then wait for a white tail deer to wander by the deer hut.
The east coast hunter will claim his favorite East coast deer cartridge is the only one used in all of the US and is so ignorant they haven't any clue accuracy is not made by a single brand of ammo or bullets.
Another ignorance of 98% of American hunters are influenced by garbage advertising about ammo and bullets and believe in every liar garbage from Bar room drunks that lead core bullets are superior to copper expanding bullets because of the fad lie told is copper expanding bullets are only FMJ bullets or copper bullets only expand after a velocity of 3000 FPS.
The American hunters' ideas on guns & ammo and hunting are a mass of ignorance and stories told for generations from bar room drunks to ignorance from ammo & bullet manufactures advertisement propaganda just to sell their goods to anyone to believe the garbage.
One good example of ammo & bullet propaganda came from Hornaday when making the 6.5 Creedmoor was pushed as a do all long range kills all cartridge then comes all the hunters with stories of wounded Elk and deer and many game never found shot by a 6.5 Creedmoor.
Most all US hunters use some kind of cheap lead and copper jacket bullet that the manufacture has marketed a target bullet as a hunting bullet this is where serious problem starts when these bullets are use on game then blow-up wounding game and the animal's meat 3/4 of it is thrown away from bullet blood shot damages.
I grew up in the US Pacific NW where there are massive canyons and mountains and thick rain forest, we hunt Roosevelt Elk the ghost of the forest many of us refer to these Elk and we have Black tail deer on the west side of the Cascade mountains and mule deer on eastern side of the state where there can be Hugh valleys or pines tree forest and flat sage brush lands a real combo of land to hunt.
The use of large magnums is quit the common over 308 and 30-06 based cartridges.
The stupid 6.5 Creedmoor fad is a ragging, and the cartridge is widely wrongfully used on to far of shots and to large of game and made worst shooting lead core bullets!
I am now 63 years old then have been guiding hunts from the pacific NW to Alaska since 1978.
I am a custom rifle builder and reloader of standard cartridges and reloader of wildcat cartridges.
On hunts my clients are required to use Barns ammo with the TSX or LRX ammo and I exclusively for game hunts only shoot Barns TSX bullets for faster kills and zero waste of meat.
@@Lure-Benson Wow! I didn't know how special I am. I hunt on the east coast, I live in the mountains of North Carolina. I don't drink, and I save the ribs for the table. I reload . I just loaded some Barnes ammo with my grandson for him to take his first deer .I understand ballistics and different hunting scenarios, as well as tailoring hunting techniques to different situations and topography. I understand what works in the east may not work in the west. I also am a pretty tolerant person and I believe in free choice and not telling people what has worked for them in their situation is wrong. It just doesn't offend me enough to go off on a rant that seriously sounds like a pro wrestler insulting the locals for a reaction. Not that pro wrestling or rants bother me either, I am just glad I learned how unique I am today. Thanks for that.
Lapua Naturalis 231 grains has gone with me to Namibia 6 times. Fantastic performance in a 338 RUM
energy equals the mass x the velocity squared divided by 2. In other words, if you double the weight(mass), you double the energy. But if you double the velocity you quadruple the energy. (goes up by 4 times). So relatively small increases in velocity give large increases in energy. Copper bullets need to be pushed fast to get good expansion.
Well thank you soooo much! Been looking for a proper fieldtesting video on the Barnes 130grs. in .308 for quite some time now! Over in Germany we got pretty much the same discussion on lead-free bullets for Deer and medium sized boar, due to the ban in almost all federal states... Keep up the good work!
130 grain TTSX .308 dia.
IMR8208xbr under max
Lapua brass
Large rifle primer
3,100+ FPS
1/2 MOA
Great video, very informative. Great to know there's equal results if not better from copper bullets, cheers from ireland (.308)
129gr Barnes LRX @3050 FPS out of my .270 Win has proven to be very deadly for Rocky Mountain Elk! Great video.
TTSX is a fantastic projectile!
One question though, are those "NGO's" connected to the United Nations?...
Great show again must try some of the lead free bullets for my self 👍
Hydraulic shock and hydrostatic shock are totally two different things and should never be mixed.
The problem with lead ban is not hunting in usual ranges. It's the ideology behind it and practicing cost at the range that got me on the walls.
I agree with you,and the lead ban was political,other states have rejected the false info and kept lead bullets.
This video, definitely, helped me make up my mind on the debate on lead vs lead free ammunition. Thanks from California, a lead free shooting state.
Yes, both Barnes bulletsand Cali are shite
Well done video and demonstration, Sir. I hunt Whitetail deer in wide open farm and ranch land in Northeastern Oklahoma, USA with a Ruger rifle in 6.5mm Creedmoor. I plan to switch to Winchester's 125 grain Copper Impact bullet next year. In the meantime, I will use up my stock of lead bullets on the coyotes.
Do you think the 125g on 6.5 creed is good for deer? I’m planning on doing the same
Leave to you British fellers to show how this sort of sports program should be done. I must confess that I was fairly ignorant about the variety of game there. I am in Montana and have used 180gr TTX, 300WBY on some hefty Mule deer, dead right there, but never recovered a bullet. The majority of these were much shorter range than I had anticipated, one at less than 80 meters, but the shock of the Barnes bullet at WBY velocity, took them out immediately.
Just want to say. This effort has class. Not one stab at being hip and I like it. Subscibed.
Do you believe that the bible is true? If so then you are going to Hell because thou shall not kill. The bible does not state what living thing is not included. The only thing that keeps you at an higher advantage is the ..firearm. So if you call yourself a sportsman then drop your rifle or any advantage weapon and try and defeat the animal you chose to kill! I think you are too much of a fake man to do that. And if you are a godly man you are for sure a phony little non compassionate living human.
My experience here in the US is that monolithic HP projectiles expand larger and penetrate deeper than the standard cup and core bullets. On our deer, if a bullet fragments, it can be less likely to make humane kill.
Great and informative info. Thanks you.
I like the lighter for caliber concept. I prefer the 150 grain 308 however. Velocity isn’t too far off at the muzzle from the 130s, and it passes the 130 back at around 400 yards. But I do hunt elk in addition to deer and pronghorn, so I like the added foot pounds the 150s carry past the muzzle over the 130s.
That classic Seamaster 300 is still a cool watch!
Yes I found it very interesting also, well done team, 👍.
I think where copper or monolithic bullets shine is with speed calibers. Bullets that start out at 2900 ft per second or higher end up being above 1800 ft per second at effective hunting ranges. If you happen to hit bone on a less than perfect angle like quartering away, the copper bullet will hold together and keep on driving through.
@Rom vin
makerbullets.com/proddetail.php?prod=358200LVR
I use Maker Ammo 200gr lever bullets. They're made specifically for the .35 Remington's lower velocity.
No, the cooper and brass bullets work fine with every calibre. My leadfree 9,3x62 reaches 970 M/sec = 3182,41 ft/sec.
Ok, they expand nicely at close range. How do they work at maximum range where velocity has fallen off to about 1800 fps? Lighter faster means to me they crap out fast when velociry starts to fall off. I'd love to see some slow velocity tests with these bullets. Thanks for the vid.
At a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps, the 130 gr TTSX is above the 1800fps threshold beyond 500 yards (2066 fps)
@@RetrieverTrainingAlone but realize the threshold is the minimum amount of expansion.. the bullet doesn't expand to full diameter unless you're at least at 2500fps or higher upon impact.
The TTSX has become the only projectile that i now use in my 6mm Rem, 257 Roberts and 6.5 x 55. All one shot kills except one terrible shot from me.
Couldn't agree more sir!
Sounds great, but I haven't seen good, reliable expansion out of any of the monolithic bullets below 2200 feet/second. That's a 240-250 yard shot out of my 308. On the Canadian prairies, 300+ yard shots are common. I hope Canada doesn't ban lead before the manufactures come up with proper mono bullets, that can really perform at 1600-1800 ft./second.
They're coming out with bullets that open slower. Barnes has their LRX and such
@@fordrac1ng81 Better and better products always seem to find their way to the marketplace, so I'm optimistic. That said, I don't think we're there yet. The LRX is a great bullet at 2000-2500 fps, but when used as I described above, I still find it's performance to be barely passable. Look at a .30 cal LRX that has only hit soft tissue at 1800 fps and you'll understand what I mean. Cheers.
Yuk Tuk. Try a 110 gr non-tipped Barnes TSX at 3400+ fps (look on Barnes' site for load data) for the .308. 2177 fps @350 yds (1158 fpe still). Zero @250 for an easy PBR. Shoots like a laser, hits like a baseball bat. Go to 130 gr for cow elk+heavy western bucks, feral swine , 150 gr for just elk and feral swine. The 110 gr > 150 gr for just deer hunting/opening, effect, DRT, etc.
@@nwmacguy Thank you for the info, but I don't reload. These bullets may shoot well and are worth a serious try in my rifle, but experience has shown me that heavy for caliber bullets shoot best in my 308. So far, the "best" cartridge has been 178 grain Hornady ELD-X. They always shoot sub-moa for me and I recently shot a 10 round group at 200 meters, that printed slightly less than 1.8 inches. I value accuracy as much as I value expansion and penetration. The 110 gr non-tipped Barnes TSX may actually expand well, but I would find it very difficult to rely on those if they are not as accurate as the ELD-X. I guess I'll know better once I've tried them. Cheers!
If you need long range monolith you could use an LRX or hand load Hammer bullets. Or you could hand load your .308 with Varget and a load below max would start at 3000 fps, resulting in a 130 gr TTSX at 2060 fps at 500 yards.
I found this very interesting and interested to find out more about this.
Been shooting Barnes bullets since about 1995. They work great and you don't have lead in your meat.
Yes, you are 100% correct? Lighter faster copper is the way to go. I just bought some Remington 22 3 swine Smasher, Remington was using the TSX bullet Reloaded. Very excited I gave up on lead long time ago. Even in my 9mmm. I don't care about hollow points anymore.
The .243 looked overexpanded by the high velocity. For deer in the states I would prefer a 6.5x55 with a 110-120 gr bullet at about 2900-3000 fps, nothing fancy the old veteran Swede is a no muss, no fuss work horse. I love the older 6.5 mm cartridges.
GMX bullet is the best, second is barnes e-tip and third is TTSX
What brands of copper bullets have U tested ? Do any of them take less velocity to open ?
I have been using Barnes TTSX bullets for years. They are great performers on game.
What caliber, game, and distance if you don’t mind me asking? I’m thinking of using either the 168 TTSX or LRX 175 gr in a 30-06 for deer and elk out to 400 yards.
Nah, they are not... They pencilled the jugs just like they do the deer
Sorry that you only used Barnes bullets when so many others are available
Nice.
I hv used barns bullets and they are not very consistent and don't group well.
Maybe they hv improved. Might try them out again if we ever get amo on are shelfs again in America. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
What kind of cheek riser do you have on this rifle?
Nice testing ! Which bullet is that at 6:11 min ? Thanks and keep it up !
I’m a professional stalker on west coast of Scotland. Been using 168gr hornady for 20 yrs shooting several thousand deer. The switch to copper has been awful for me so far, or rather awful for deer. Able to achieve good accuracy with loads but my experience is that theses bullets are not killing beasts quickly. They don’t seem able to depart energy into the beast the way lead does. I’ve just purchased some ecx heads to try, hopefully they will be an improvement on what I’ve tried so far.
My fathers dog got hurt when he shot a moose with TSX. I think it was the 150, one of the petals broke off and hit the dog in the forehead. We didnt think it was nothing, it got a bit of a bump on the forehead.. one year later, a piece of copper came out - one of the petals of the tsx.
the dog was close to the moose when he shot (as is usual), the angel was well over 60 degrees, so there was minimal risk for the dog but the fragment must have gone really wide. Lucky dog, no permanent problems after it healed up.
Sounds like bad luck
Great video Andrew.
Also in Switzerland it is planned to use non lead ammo. In some areas in Germany they already had to move to lead free ammo. How about the Hornady GMX, they are also some kind of similar to Barnes copper bullets as well? Did you test them? Is the performance similar to Barnes?
I have seen some x-rays on deer with lead bullets and lead free bullets used for hunting - I was surprised how many little lead parts are in the body allover around the bullet path went through the body.
regards from Switzerland
GMX work in a similar way to the Barnes bullets, in our experience.
Andrew Venables, try out CNC turned bullets with drivebands.....
What's interesting about lead is the pure metal pass right through with little to no harm but lead oxide will is toxic at very low levels because the body can absorb it easily
I have used Hornady 308 lead free and they were fine but didn't seem to have the stopping power of the equivalent lead bullet. Now, having learned from Andrew, I will go for lighter and faster and see how they go. This also explains why Norma do not do a 100gr 243 but only an 80gr. I will have a go with them, too, once the lead jobs I have are used up.
Thanks to Andrew for this. It would be interesting to see a comparison of the various commonly available manufacturer's rounds.
Thanks Colin. / Charlie
Yeah, if you want the same stopping power from nonlead bullets, you have to break bone...like the shoulder
Unfortunately, hornady no longer makes the gmx bullet, which I did love, but their new cx bullet looks like an improvement over the gmx
@@jacobmullins3644 I thought the GMX were the best of the unleaded that i tried. Unbelievably accurate. It will be interesting to see and hear how the CX goes. Presumably, it has better expansion properties than previous incarnations.
I prefer lighter flatter trajectory cartridges because the hydrostatic shock seems to put them down instantly vs weight. I’m coming from shooting 300win mag which is very great but a lot of recoil to a 6.5x300 Weatherby. They both are instant kills but one has significantly less kick.
Lighter and flatter...??? what distance??? If you're shots are never farther than a couple hundred yards/meters I would agree. Also, I would rather not throw away all that hydrostatically damaged tissue. Recoil is certainly felt more at the range than on the hunt. When the shot opportunity comes during the hunt, recoil is a moot factor.
@@grunner30 I grew up in the Pacific NW with all elders had been hunt -a -hall -licks.
My father was addicted to Roosevelt Elk hunting as a drug addict needs his drug fix.
Before all the elders passed away, we had a well-organized hunter bunch of family - we had vehicle drivers that dripped off hunters to walks the canyons then picked at the bottom by the vehicle drivers.
We had CBs in the Trucks and handheld radios for hunter on foot so at all times we had communications with everyone for who was where and who need a pick and where to be picked up.
Trucks with drivers after a drip off of family hunters the trucks would go to a mountain top to watch family on the decent down the mountain and have radioed communications to all family members on foot.
We hunted the North Oregon coast for Roosevelt Elk & Black tailer deer and by 1978 I started guiding hunts that turned me to Alaska to offer hunts.
I have seen all bullets used and all the damage bad bullets can cause with wasted up to 3/4 the animal's meat goes to the coyotes.
Number one meat wasting bullets are always lead core / copper jacket bullets are number one for zero wasted meat is Barn TSX bullets - I can't say anything about all the other brands of copper bullets when I don't use them, but I suspect same results as a Barns TSX bullet.
If recoil is an issue put a muzzle break on the rifles and buy an electric earmuff that cut off a rifle shot but amplify forest sound like the brand, I use is Impact sport I can hear critters a long way off in the forest I can't hear normally.
I am shooting 7 mm Rem mag - 300 Wby mag - an AR 10 I built in 375-300 WSM with all of these make zero meat loss by shooting Barns TSX bullets, every part of game meat comes home.
Very interesting, but the .243 wouldn’t be deer legal in Scotland as it’s not 100gn ? So unless they change the deer act you won’t be able to use it ? At that velocity the 80gn Barnes would be 1800 odd foot pounds.
How is copper fouling?
Interesting video!
What type of training ammo do you use? As the ttsx is pure copper most cheap rounds will might have an impact on accuracy, right? Thats why I am currently using the GMX combined with cheap fmj (s&b) bullets.
greetings from germany
Thanks
Game meat taken with lead rounds is of absolutely no consequence health wise.
That copper petal is big enough to notice and spit out if you get it in your meat, unlike led particles.
Huh? I don’t think eating lead particles is good for your health 😂
@@devinb3397 That's what I'm saying.
@@darkiee69 my bad I thought you were implying copper was bad because you’d notice it
@@devinb3397 Quite the opposite, that's what makes it good. And that is a lot less toxic compared to lead.
What is the meat damage with those velocities?
How much bloodshot meat that is unusable?
Fillability?
One problem with the .243 - does the deer act not still require a minimum bulletweight of 100 Grains? It certainly does in Sotland so that is not a deer legal load.
In England it looks like the bullet weight element has been removed? But it must achieve 1700ft/lbs, which for an 85 grain bullet requires a mimimum velocity of 3005 fps - (3100 for 80g) otherwise it is not a legal load for deer. Most riles should get to this easily though. The round may work brilliantly and the legislation might need updating, but it's not legal for Scotland for Sika, Red or Fallow.
By they way I completely agree the best way to go with these bullets is lighter for calibre and fast. Ross Seyfried highlighted this over 30 years ago when they first came out.
50gr for Roe in Scotland. I think there will be a lot of used 243 rifles coming onto the market soon!
@@JamesTheForester Yes Roe is different in Scotland as you can use .22 centrefires there and have been able to for a long time. I'm not anti light for calibre bullets or 22 centrefires for Roe, just wouldn't want people thinking they were legal when they may not be.
So all these pretty much are solid copper hollow points?
My personal experience is that in .308 all TTSX bullets would expand fantastic in tests. No matter if 130, 150 or 168 grain. And very good precision.
But I will not use them again on deer. I have lost two deer this year. Nearly no or even no blood trail at all. No matter where I hit them. For me a poor hunting bullet.
The 165 grain GMX in .308 at even less than 800m/s muzzle velocity performs much better. A lot of blood on the ground to track the game. If necessary. For me the number one lead free bullet.
Nevertheless, a piece of choclate or salad may contain more lead than meat from a deer shot with a lead bullet.
The discussion about lead in meat is nonsense. Copper bullets penetrating into the ground are no better than solid lead in the ground. The problem is not solid lead. Somehow, the legislating force of the EU seems unbeatable, no matter if their goals make sense or not...
Same here in the Union of Soviet Socialist California. Since we are stuck with nonlead bullets, you may want to try fragmenting copper bullets like Cutting Edge Raptors/Maximus, Hammer Hunter, Lehigh Control Chaos...for they have similar terminal performance to that of copper-lead. Actually, the base of these bullets may penetrate even more deeply than many copper-lead bullets. My personal experience has been using the Cutting Edge Raptors in my 30-06, after I got tired of having to track deer with the Barnes TTSX. Granted, I have only shot two deer with the Raptors...but both have dropped almost immediately with barely a step taken. Both animals had nasty internal damage...not the nickel/dime-sized hole through the lungs like from the TTSX.
Good luck and less tracking, Sir👍🏼
@@hikenmikes8262 20 million animals every year because of lead poisoning in the united states, 3,000 tons of lead are dumped in to the environment every year simply from hunting. That's not counting shooting ranges which is 80,000 tons and 4,000 tons from fishing activities.
There's no logically possible position for you to say you care about hunting but don't care about lead impacting the environment. You won't have anything to hunt if you ignore it.
@@shinrapresident7010had you actually read my response you would see that I advocated using certain brand of copper fragment bullets that work just as well as copper-lead bullets. With that said, California is a socialist/communist overreach shithole state, using exaggerated lead fact to push their lead bullet ban….and your lead facts are exaggerated and overreaching, as well.
I don’t want anyone telling me what bullet I can and can’t use, but I typically do go for solids as they are crazy accurate, hard hitting and retain so much weight as well as not ruining any meat. They really are an amazing option and not a compromise. Only downside is how long they have to be to get the extra weight so the bc suffers and to shoot the heavies you’ll need a really fast twist and probably single feed do to the length of the bullets if you want to leave room for powder in your case. I love my bonded lead bullets, but something like a Barnes lrx or hammer hunter bullets are a great choice that is super effective on game and super accurate.
If velocity is the name of the game with copper, how does it perform at extended hunting ranges? Say 200 to 300 metres when the bullet has shed a reasonable amount of energy?
Crap, deer run every single time 50-150 meter with lung shots. I have never had on dead on the spot with copper
@@drgdfhfdhfd498 just try Barnes' TTSX. Most of my wildboar and deer do drop on spot. I have been using the bullet for the last 3yrs, and no problems. Occasionally I used non-lead Lapua, RWS and S&B but nothing of that was so accurate with my .308 rifles.
@@drgdfhfdhfd498 and perhaps more importantly: try lighter faster bullets so they can expand quicker
@@MrPysiaki are these animals that drop on the spot striking bone...or are they behind the shoulder double lung shot?
@@hikenmikes8262 well, boars are aimed mainly between the head and shoulder (some times shoulder), while roe and fallow deer behind shoulder. Roe drops like a log, but 308w is a bit of the overkill for its size. I'm very happy with the bullet and have absolutely no reasons to think of changing it. Works excellent, accurate, does not pollute meat not environment. The only downside is price, but it is worth paying for.
Barnes tipped TSX bullets are the best.
I like copper but despise barns bullets accuracy performance. the last box was so bad I won't even bother to load them even my six year old son figured out why I wouldn't load them after I told him to look them over and tell me why. he said dad they look crooked. did you shoot these already one time. and I just had to tell him no son this is how barns bullets come fresh off the cabelas shelf. and its a shame I paid so much for scrap metal
"Scotland is going to insist on Lead-free for Deer cullin" ...... "My fav .243" 80-grain Bullet " .............. 100grain is the min legal weight for large deer in Scotland and 50 fro small deer so .243 is possibly made obsolete in Scotland for large deer. I'm looking for a lead-free for my 6.5 but with a 16.5" barrel high velocity isn't easy and High velocity usually make a large amount of damage can write off most of both shoulders if hit which is an important consideration unless just killing (just seen your other vid on meat damage so Will have to try it and see if I can get the velocity up to expand them )
One thing I wonder is that if lead bullets are banned (and I think some dealers now won't accept deer shot with lead) how will that affect a lot of people who shoot a. 243, getting a 100gn bullet in copper is going to be no easy feat.....
Or other smaller calibres for that matter.....
How does the difference in ammunition (copper) and bullet weight affect zero?
You should definitely re-zero. / Charlie
Ttsx is deadly
100 grn ttsx 3800 FPS. .257 cal .257 stw.
That’s the right way chaps! Very good. Everyone else it seems shoots the jugs at 15 yards. Well done.🇨🇦🤠
If your rifle bullet is spinning at 25 thousand to 30 thousand RPM, then your bullet is spinning too slow to stabilize. Perhaps you meant to say the bullet is spinning at 250 thousand to 300 thousand RPM.
Your demonstration rifle bullet with a MV of 3050 fps would have a spin of 219,600 (two hundred nineteen thousand six hundred) RPM, assuming a one in ten inch twist barrel.
The thousand years of lead bullets and now its a problem. Its just a way to restrict ammo. Maybe for duck in high volume areas it might cause a problem for something maybe.
Thousands of years of smoking and now it's a problem.
On to step two...Andrew has a good bit of experience...but what kind of results happens at 200m 300m 500m... or will all Non-Lead ammo be limited to short range? Thanks again Charlie, David. I appreciate your insight.
Lead free bullets have lower weight for the size, so worse BC - they loose velocity faster. But most are rated for expansion to 2000fps, thats often 200-300 meters. If you are going to shoot live animals at those ranges, you better use a high BC hunting lead bullet.
but there are pre-fragmented designs aswell, they are almost like varmint bullets at closer ranges but should work fine up to 500m
I'm sorry I have to partially disagree with Hendrik. Firstly most commen copper bullets are rated to expand up to 1800fps with proper expansion happening up to 2000fps. So expansion will take place up to 300m with most commen hunting cartridges. Secondly the high weight retention of copper bullets mean you get amazing penetration even at lower velocities.
Here comes where I partially have to agree: I'm not a huge fan of going super light with bullets. You can step one weight class down (eg 165 in stead of 180 for 30 cal), but going to super light messes to much with your BC.
Now for OP's question: I shoot 165gr Frontier Utimate Hunters (basically a South-African made TTSX) at about 2650fps out of my 308 Win and the farthest two shots I have taken on animals was 264m heart shot on an orix cow (ran 60m and dropped dead) and a 350m frontal shot on a blue wildebeest bull and he collapsed on the spot (hit the vertebra). So you definitely can shoot farther ranges with copper bullets, just make sure of your shot placement.
110gr TSX in .308 at 3400+ fps, wicked!
Barnes needs a 110gr TSX boat tail for the 6mm Creedmoor.
7mm TSX 150gr .266 SD - offered
6.5mm TSX 130gr .266 SD - offered
6mm TSX 110gr .266 SD - not offered
I believe sectional density is more important than ballistic coefficient and an SD above .250 is very good. Most hunting shots are close enough that BC plays no appreciable role, but SD is necessary for proper penetration.
👍
Do they ruin the barrel quicker? Shooting into water gallons is one thing, but will it bring down a white tail or deer just as quickly?
A water barrel is no substitute for a whitetail - but we wanted a way of comparing bullets' performance. / Charlie
@@fieldsportstv I feel like most of people that comment on your channel have no idea about hunting at all. 🇺🇲
Do I like the idea of no lead in my venison? Heck yeah! Are the solid copper bullets great for breaking bones and deep penetration? Heck yeah! Do they kill just as quickly as the copper-lead bullets when double-lunging, behind the shoulder shots on thin-skinned game? Nope, they do not...and you generally have to track your game further when you don’t strike bone.
I think your interpretation of "25-30 thousand rpm" is poorly considered. The more relevant fact is that the bullet is going into the game at one turn per 8 inches (or whatever the twist rate of the barrel is) -- which will mean that it won't really rotate that much. Indeed, this is seen when shooting into gel -- rotation rate might be a bit quicker than twist rate (because it comes to an eventual stop), but not much. The bullet rotation is not a significant part of wounding (and this is the finding of bullet manufacturers, as well).
Hornady gmx.
"Water is not compressible" Why am I wasting money on expensive brake fluid? In 1996 I blow a 300 grain, Barnes X bullet, from a 378 Wbm through 3 cape buffalos. The PH told, no you will not shoot through a buffalo bull. They drop yards from each other. That load gave a lot of copper in the barrel. I guess the new bullets are better.
Ttsx is the winner in European market.
The 80gr .243 bullets are illegal for Red, Sika and Fallow in Scotland and with all the testing I have seen every calibre has to lower the bullet weight by around 20gr to get the best for that given calibre, so .243 becomes non deer legal in Scotland, the .270 which is the preferred choice of forestry deer contractors in Scotland will move from 130gr ( which is the popular weight) to 110gr, the .308 which is not so popular will go from 165gr or 150 gr to 130gr, all of this losing the traditional resons for choosing a certain calibre. What worries me, As I am a contractor, is that with this change we need to see some movement in the legislation. It is a difficult one am afraid and it will shake up the industry. ATB DT
Thanks. / Charlie
Fancy a used 243 then try Scotland in 2022 🤦🏼♂️
What about .22lr and 17hmr and air gun pellets we still need lead for those
How many rotations do you think you get in an animal mate...? Its one or two... Rpm this and that. It has no bearing on lethality. (well hardly any).. You aren't drilling the bloody things ..
So Wales is in lockdown,he travels from wales to england.
Did he stay there or travel back,then isolate for a fortnight.
Can anyone explain that logic to me please.
yeah I still prefer my hammerheads,... not gonna change.
Is the lead ban only for hunting bullets? Cant imagine you would be forced to buy copper for target shooting aswell, but again its britain lol. Also is there no fight against the ban? Here in Sweden we have several organizations fighting stupid laws like these.
Lead ban on ranges is probably not going to happen in a while, if ever. Police etc all need to be able to train with their lead rounds.
We are allready lead free on shotgun ranges, but the ammount of lead is much larger for skeet/trap then pure rifle ranges. Most lead are in the shooting walls.
Lots of shooters consider that to be phase 2. And don't think it will affect to government when they can write themselves their own exemption.
Why not use ballistic gel for the test? To the best of my knowledge deer are not made of plastic containers and water. Also what ranges have you tested this?
Deer are not made of ballistic gel either they use that media to compare bullets cause its always the same not because it acts like bones and meat
Trying the 270 TTSX this year for deer we’ll see what happens
Bust the shoulder if you don’t want to track them far
@@hikenmikes8262 I always do ruins meat but steps taken-1 might as well be a neck shot they just crumple
as far as im concerned you are at no disadvantage using a copper bullet
The disadvantage I have found is the double lung, behind the shoulder shot on thin skinned game. Game runs further and seems to die slower with strikes from nonlead bullets. That’s just been my experience.
Cost is a major factor as to why the government wants to do this because they know the average joe cannot afford bulk ammo that costs 3-5 times more than normal ammo.
All cooper bullets can never be compared to lead bullets. I have tried ttsx on both 30-06 at about 850ms and in 223 in about 930ms and the deers run like 50-150 meters every single time with lung shots. While my normal nosler bt normaly brings deer down on the spot. dont even compare
They're different beast but I suggest you try out a .270 win 130 grain ballistic tip copper bullet. Its a bit counter intuitive but his observation here is correct: with copper bullets higher FPS = better expansion which equals better quicker kills.
Yeah, too many want to believe the solid copper bullets are the quick killers like traditional copper-lead...but they just are not. However, if you break the shoulder with nonlead...it will anchor the animal much more quickly
Perfect example of why deer run off when hit with these shitty bullets. Not always, of course - because fanboys like to tell you they've NEVER had it happen..bullshit..
You got some huge misconception about the bullet rotating thing. 30000rpm may sound much but it isn´t at all. a really fast rotating bullet does one turn in 7 inches (~18cm) a .270 win is more like 1 turn every 10 inches (25cm). at the muzzle by the way. after entering and expanding it extremely slows down. you talk about this like it is some sort of meat grinder that spins through deer like a margarita blender. in fact it does 1 full rotation in an animal if at all and it would make no difference in terms of wound ballistics if it would not rotate at all.
Naturalis factory ammo for 308w is pure shit. Worst ammo i ever tried.
Shouldn't the testing be done by shooting deer, not water?
We do not live in a perfect world
That would show the shortcomings of nonlead bullets when compared to that of traditional copper-lead...especially with the behind the shoulder double lung shots
🙁🔫😼
Corona is a blessing
#Lynxlivesmatter
So we just going to supply the public with almost semi armour piecing rounds? It's a hard metal, it will go further
I'll never use solid copper bullets ever again.
Your test is worthless. You shot into water, which is not a tissue simulant. You might as well have shot a piece of wood or a steel plate, and obtained results just as worthless (but not so spectacular for the camera).
Your lack of understanding how copper bullets expand is obvious. They use hydraulic pressure not blunt trauma like lead. Mammals are 98% water on average, so water is an acceptable medium for copper testing.