Huntington's LA: The History of Pacific Electric
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- This video describes the rise and fall of Pacific Electric, Los Angeles' famous former streetcar system that shaped the city's present built environment.
00:00-01:05 Introduction
01:06-11:06 The Rise and Fall of Pacific Electric
11:07-14:17 Present Impacts and Conclusion
Source links:
www.straightdope.com/columns/read/551/did-general-motors-destroy-the-la-mass-transit-system/
doi.org/10.1177/004208169102700104
la.curbed.com/2015/7/30/9935072/red-car-air-line-expo-line-history
www.railswest.com/histpe.html
www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2014/09/23/long-dead-streetcars-still-shape-l-a-neighborhoods/chronicles/who-we-were/
www.jstor.org/stable/41171454?seq=1page_scan_tab_contents
#LosAngeles #transit #streetcar #PacificElectric - Věda a technologie
It is really fascinating how the old routes shape geography today. The modern highways in Southern and Central Europe are following the ancient Roman roads from 2000 years ago. And Los Angeles today is still shaped by the streetcar lines from 100 years ago.
Even more interesting, many of the major streets in Southern California follow the exact routes of old cattle dirt trails from the early to mid 1800s. Sunset Boulevard, La Tijera, Highway 101 through the Cahuenga Pass, Whittier Boulevard, Valley Boulevard, Foothill Boulevard, Sepulveda Bl., San Fernando Rd., Mission Rd., Slauson Ave., Firestone Bl., Los Coyotes, Rosemead Bl. These are all old cattle trails, among others. Colonizers liked to trace out straight north-south or east-west grid pattern roads. These diagonal masterpieces were made to drive cattle to the railheads of ranch headquarters.
I rode the PE from Pasadena to downtown Los Angeles daily for 5 years and looked forward to the daily ride. The 6th St depot was crowded too. Great memories.
Great history lesson. I still see remnants of the old PE system in the San Gabriel valley area. Been living in SoCal for almost 60 years. I see the trolly and light rail systems recreating history once again. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent video! I was born in 1957 and clearly remember riding curbliner trolleys with my grandmother in Des Moines Iowa. Currently, here in Omaha, Nebraska, they're making a comeback and plan to have operational streetcars by 2025.
Great video!
Los Angeles is a perfect example of what happens when you abandon urban planning and public-private workmanship for several decades. You end up with a city in grid lock and blight.
Great video. Imagine if Los Angeles was known for its rail network instead of its freeways.
imagine if US would be known for its public transportation, instead of cars and 2x16 lanes freeways...
Or murder rates ..
@@matejancsek For many years, the cultural bias of the US has been one in which a single family home in the suburbs, and the nicest car (or other motor vehicle) one can afford has been the American Dream. Those who live in apartments and ride public transit are considered to be second-class citizens.
I'm a train and I approve this video!!!
This is a lesson in why infrastructure is not a profit center. Running is as one will always end up in failure. Why should the PE run at a profit while roads and freeways do not? Taxpayers pay more in road maintenance than rail.
A very good short documentary! Thank you.
Great video! I bought into the Who Framed Roger Rabbit theory of LA streetcar decline for a long time but I’ve realized that it was more complicated than that. You make a good point with the streetcars shaping the geography and population density of present-day LA. CityNerd on YT has a great video about the same topic. In fact, basically any U.S. city that developed pre-WW2 and had a streetcar system shares the same interesting phenomenon. I hope we can revive rapid transit in a lot of these corridors and even create new ones with modern rapid transit.
If anything, this is proof of what consolidated planning, development, and operations can do if done well. Build a city around a train, and the city will live around the train.
Any US streetcar line post war: * is unprofitable *
GM: Hippidy Hoppidy, your lines are now my property
Car centricism is just about to be pushed into the dustbin of history. Good riddance. Streetcars will return to America . Dont worry. Goodbye jams, road rage, car payments, expensive fuel, insurance , drive through . The car has destroyed small business in America. Its reign will end soon.
What a great video. Really shows the value of a properly built system and the impacts decades later. The most impactful part of this video is at the end, where the density of residential is directly correlated with the rail line. The Europeans did the same and are reaping the benefits today.
I could be wrong, but I think that the PCC street car at 2:45 is from the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) rather than anything in Los Angeles. I can't read the logo, but it looks like the TTC logo and the car is painted in a scheme that is identical to the one the TTC used in the 50s and 60s. The TTC streetcar system, by the way, was never dismantled and runs to this day with modern equipment.
It is indeed a TTC car, not a PE car. Amusingly this one in the photo is a PCC they bought used from Kansas City when they were dismantling their streetcar network in the 50s
My mother was born in 1926 in Los Angeles and used to talk about the red street cars… now I understand what she was talking about! She absolutely loved riding on them!
Thanks for the through discussion of Pacific Electric. Yes, photos and film footage isn't all of PE, but your coverage of the subject is excellent. I grew up in L.A. and remember riding on PE, LARY and their successors as a child. As a young adult I didn't want to spend the rest of my life stuck in brown air behind the wheel of a car and have never for a minute regretted moving to San Francisco. It ain't cheap, but the skies are mostly blue and getting around on transit mostly works.
The point of the Pacific Electric was to add to the value of his real estate and utility holdings. The railroad was never a sustainable business in itself.
Absolutely!
That's not necessarily true. A lot of the 'losses' were from the bonded debt payments from when Southern Pacific bought P.E. in 1911. The actual 'operating' losses, (wages, electric propulsion power, routine maintenance, etc.), were much lower, or in many years, actually profitable. Another thing is that these debt payments were actually going to Southern Pacific itself, as they held much of the debt themselves...they said "S.P.'s Pacific Electric subsidiary was 'losing' money...by paying interest payments to Southern Pacific.
@@user-hx2wx7mk8n I was including the corporate rape of PE by the Southern Pacific, which mimicked what they did with many of their acquisitions, and is a foundation for what corporations do today when acquiring companies they wish to exploit.. My time frame started after 1911. Still, you have a point - there were years when the system turned an operating profit.
Had it survived to now it would have been absorbed into Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority with some of the lines modernized to run on Interstate median therefore making those lines an exact copy of the Green line which actually runs on 105 Century fwy & Gold Line 210 Foothill freeway. Therefore use the same trains as those lines including the Blue Line.
I wonder if it would have looked like the South Shore Line out of Chicago.
As a ex metro employee I can tell you that whoever brings back these wonderful street cars it would put them out of business and help relieve stress on the traffic we have during rush hour
If you look at the picture 100 years ago downtown Los Angeles was a wonderful place
I've been a CDL driver for 30 years all over the USA just about every little town has a name after them
How about a big nice sign of
LOS ANGELES
And history of this city
A good spot would be olvera st
Don't forget it was established
1912
God bless.
Qué hermosa Compañía era, debieran haber conservado todo ,hoy sería una extraordinaria atracción turística todo mundo querría viajar en esos tranvías ,gracias.
Nice video and history. Just a few comments. First, Pacific Electric (PE) was an interurban railroad, not a street railway. Although the PE Red Cars did go down some of LA's streets, most were on private right of way. Second, Huntington did own a street railway called the Los Angeles Railway (LARY). Many of the streetcars you show in the video were part of that system. Last, Metropolitan Coach Lines was never owned by GM, although it's owner was a former executive of National City Lines, so he must have had connections! Otherwise, thanks for an informative video!
Absolutely. Also, Huntington Beach was created by Henry to sell land. My one quibble is that while all of this is true the main reason for the lines initially was to sell real estate. Some of the original investors were named Van Nuys and Lankershim because they were farmers who became much wealthier by selling their land. Sherman Way just below I 405 is a perfect example- the street is so wide because the trains ran down the center and where the apartments stand now was all grand houses to entice prospective buyers. Col. Sherman was an investor too.
Fascinating! Thank you for your thorough research.
Excellent documentary. I rode the new line to Santa Monica many times back in 2015/6.
I remember going on the Red Car from Pasadena to downtown Los Angeles and watching the wonderful Christmas window display at May Company.
Thanks for that ending! The whole time the old maps were up I was like “it’s the same as today!” The “local” lines were turned into above-ground light rail and the further lines match the Amtrak maps (i.e. riverside/ oc/ etc). Anyone know the history of that side of it?
It is a shame how the amazing public transit network with these really cool streetcars were all taken out. LA needs to bring these back instead of building ugly freeways that do nothing good
I wouldn't say "building ugly freeways"--I don't think Calif. is building any new ones, and we do have rail lines under construction.
The freeways 'do' plenty...they sell cars, sell oil and gasoline, sell car insurance policies, lucrative auto finance payments, etc., etc...(Ahhh...NOW you can understand why So. Cal.'s politicians liked getting rid of L.A.'s rail network...not to mention the massive freeway construction contracts).
Nice job on this report 👍
Great documentary!!! My Parents bought a home in Pasadena, from the original owners, along Villa Street in '71. The owner would tell my Dad stories of how the 'Train' would run on Villa Street, which was actually the Red Car. Where's a good place to source such images and map of that route? My Mom still resides at the Home, which is east of Allen/Villa Street.
The Los Angeles Metro Blue Line from Los Angeles CA to Long Beach CA.is a revival of Pacific ELECTRIC and the Gold Line to Pasadena from Los Angeles is also another revival of Pacific ELECTRIC and that line is bring expanded further to Montclair.
Can you talk about the modern la metro and the influence of the streetcar that still exists today in more detail? Please!
I'd love to! Maybe in a future video. It really is fascinating how the modern system we're creating now is basically an inferior replica to the system that existed 100 years ago, says a lot about how times have changed
@@jotoga Inferior in scope but I wouldn’t say inferior in terms of system quality. Those streetcar lines would have been pathetically slow today (even compared to the lrt lines with no transit signal priority) and boarding in the middle of the street would be less than ideal. It is, however, ironic to see those old lines being practically rebuilt without much upgrade as compared to their former selves.
I think LA should build heavy rail (undersgound or elevated) and have it mostly serve the urban core instead of trying to connect the whole metropolitan area.
@@AlexCab_49 I think any successful transit system for LA would need to be a regional one. There are certainly very dense parts of the urban core, but because there are so many different job centers spread across the region a network of regional transit lines would be necessary. However, I definitely agree that heavy rail would be a much better solution than the slow light rail LA is getting
@@AlexCab_49 There is no one urban core. That's the problem. It's a metropolitan area of loosely connected cores. It's like 20 small cities right next to each other. Downtown, Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Santa Monica, Glendale, Pasadena, Long Beach, many others.
great video
youtube needs more videos like this
Great video
Kudos to jotoga for this informative clip!
Excellent!!
Thanks for this 👍🏼
The train at 7:54 is a Southern Pacific commute train somewhere between San Francisco and San Jose. Not sure why it's in this video.
the decline of the Pacific Electric actually began as early as 1920, as private car ownership, with relatively open roads at the time, brought incredible freedom of travel and movement
I bought LA Noire just to see the Pacific Electric street cars.
I love reading about Angel's Flight and hearing stories from the old-timers about the Red Car. Please let's not forget that that system was put in place by real estate developers to make bunches of money selling land for development, and boy did it ever work! The Pacific Electric effectively died once it was sold to the Southern Pacific in 1910. Oh, it stayed in service for some time, but that was the beginning of the end. Millions of people moved to Southern California to work in the defense industry before and during World War II. Interestingly, that's what kept the system alive for a period of time. This was a system designed for single street cars which during the 1940s incorporated up to seven cars connected, still at very low speed. After the war, highway systems cut through the rights of way, killing many lines, and bus service slashed the ridership in the system. So the last viable lines went from downtown L.A. to the South Bay. The last line was closed in 1961. I remember going to downtown L.A. with my dad during the early 1980s, and at the time, you could still see the P.E. tracks running down Alameda St., but no overhead electrical lines and obviously no cars running. Just my dad telling stories about when he was an appliance service tech and the old-timers telling him they used to ride the red car with their toolboxes in hand to their service calls.
All Huntington cared about was money. He even married his aunt (not a blood relation) Arabella so they could keep all that lovely money in the family.
Oh definitely! And imo that's the problem with trusting a public good like transportation in the hands of private stakeholders like Huntington. Don't get me wrong, PE was great while it lasted and literally shaped the city, but once the money dried up, the streetcars were doomed.
Yes the street cars of that time did what it was supposed to do how ever the cares and other thing screwed this and potties for freeway and the tier com. Now it's time to bring back the system that was
Hello from Kansas 🇺🇸
12:37 Where was this photo taken? It’s fascinating. Trains right on the beach... wow. Was this the HB-Balboa line?
interesting video.
I am seeing lots of pics of Los Angeles Railway in there.
You should do one for San Jose although smaller has a similar history.
A lot of the footage is either LARR (the yellow cars) or RTD (post LARR, cars painted green). This footage is an entirely different system and not a part of Pacific Electric (red cars).
It was Los Angeles Railway (LA Railway) that had the yellow cars. The LA Railway was also not standard gauge as Pacific Electric was. LA Railway was 3' 6" gauge. Standard gauge P.E. was 4' 8.5".
The biggest problem in Los Angeles, postwar, appears to have been the reported requirement for all businesses to have a minimum number of on-site vehicle parks. I have read that this has changed BUT suspect that any reductions in parking requirements have been minimal. The best solution is to remove such nonsensical requirements and leave the market to decide.
Large open-air car parks (especially the free mall car parks) are often a waste of space and tend to be most utilised (just like free on street weekend parking) by people who spend very small amounts of money in the retail shops, as opposed to cafes and bars which are essentially the (useful) parasites of central business districts.
Car park buildings are an earthquake design nightmare and may cause many more paint/panel repairs than other car parks. Businesses will create or lease the vehicle parks that they need, without silly municipal regulations.
My mom and dad remembered the Pacific Electric and it being ripped out on Long Beach Blvd. Then they remembered the Blue Line being put back in - and I always thought my parents were a bit naive. The public should have just thrown some public money at the private system to make it work.
The yellow cars in the video were a separate company known as the the Los Angeles Railway (LARY) and were not Pacific Electric--although they were originally owned by Huntington.
And actually, LARY was much more 'profitable' than P.E.'s operations were for many years.
Thanks to Disneyland for showing this great trams
kind of befitting, sliding in some scene from Rotton-Ø
The green cars you show weren't part of Pacific electric they were the 3'6" gauge LARY street cars .
Exactly. One long scene also shows a trolley bus in the same livery as the PCC streetcars that feature. PE were the "red cars".
Crazy how it was a private company. Couldn’t image that today.
There were a lot of cities back in the day that had these. Why they got rid of them is beyond me! Now look at the traffic problems and I’ll be they wish they had these trolly cars back.
It was mostly due to the irony of them thinking that cars and buses were the future of transport. I guess it is but now we know that our modern cities can't thrive on just cars.
The problem with streetcars was the added expense of track and overhead. Also, they had to share the road of autos.
The original street car lines were originally privately owned to make a profit. The shift to private automobiles doomed the streetcars. Buses were deemed as a cheaper alternative with the advantage of curbside service.
Public transportation today is now government owned / operated as public service that is subsidized by taxes.
In the case of Los Angeles, the area is very spread out which puts public transportation at a disadvantage. Modern light rail is a good solution and bus lines make good feeder lines for rail transport.
An interesting factoid: Richard Nixon's father worked for Pacific Electric, and Nixon liked public mass rail transit. That's why during his administration he took HUD money away from housing projects and used it toward BART, MARTA, and DCMETRO
It would have been better for him if he drove a streetcar.
Interesting. I had no idea.
Bring those back
Bruh, that streetcar in the thumbnail looks like heavy rail subway car. Btw what is the Toronto streetcar @2:45 doing in this video when this video centers around California Streetcars?
That is a good catch. On the Toronto streetcar.
As for the size. That is complicated by today's standards. Some of the system was 100% streetcar. That is to say small rail vehicles running in mixed traffic. Some of it was like light rail. That is to say 3-4 car trains that can run in streets but spend most of their time on separate right of ways. Lastly, some of it looks like a mainline railroad with passenger trains mixed with freight trains.
The thumbnail may have come from the Long Beach Line which absolutely had freight operations. One of the things I find interesting is that Pacific Electric had high floors but low platforms. The cars only had doors on each end. By today's standards that would have been much much too slow to load.
I would guess that the producer of the video used stock footage from various locations, possibly not realizing that the transit enthusiasts would catch any out of place cars or trains.
Very informative and sad because it seems PE build the modern Los Angeles metro area instead of the car like in other sun belt cities...which means we have it easuer to make LA less car dependant
Great film, but I don't think they ever had a branch lined up Pittsburgh. Ha ha
Really informative video! Also one of the only ones on the topic that doesn't mention "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
WFRR is a great film
"Who Framed Roger Rabbit" is fiction! Cloverleaf Industries is a figment of a screenwriter's imagination.
AND... When they decided to bring light rail Back ??? The first one built was the Long Beach Blue Line ... ON its original right of way...
I saw a documentary about this starring Bob Hoskins. It wasn’t as informative as this one though.
If you're referring to "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"--that's a work of FICTION, and should not be used as a reference when studying Los Angeles area transit history.
@@DNRY122 You're right. The documentary series about the railway network on the Island of Sodor that aired on PBS in the 80's and 90's was MUCH better researched.
@@SuperTrainStationH Ah yes, the adventures of Thomas the Tank Engine. I haven't done it lately, but in years gone by, I've been one of the volunteers when Thomas visits our Railway Museum in Perris CA. My usual assignment has been to be Sir Topham Hatt's assistant, supervising the photo line for young friends of Thomas to visit with the overseer of the railway.
Public transportation will never work unless it is CLEAN AND SAFE. Look at NY city or San Francisco for example. It must be family and kid friendly-----CLEAN AND SAFE. Great watch.....
I ride SF Muni a lot and it is cleaner and has far better drivers than most cars.
MUNI has made improvements for safety, cleanness and being on time. Now let clean up the entire city and make it safe again. San Francisco is one of the jewels of the west and deserves better.@@stevenedwards3754
There's no need to "puff up" PE by citing "miles of track" rather than route miles. It's like giving freeway mileage by "miles of lane."
In Marin County the railroad offered twice to the voters to buy it as a transit project but the county had just financed the Golden Gate Bridge and would never fix their mess.
12:46 LAMTA and LACMTA are not the same authority
hindsight, of course, is 20/20
If we knew then, what we know now.
Today, government owned trains have right of way over everything and everybody. Most intersections of the blue line in dtla have red light cameras. The video showed a car right behind a pe streetcar in the same lane. Government gives buses and trains protected lanes and routes.
The movie named Who framed Roger Rabbit got me excited about the trolleys and especially those trams of the late Pacific Electric Railway (although in real life they weren’t exactly like that in the movie because they were more like train than buses like that though some probably ran that way in the middle of the highway) and maybe just that as those kids and Eddie sat on the wide rear bumper of that tram.
I would like to tell you, especially as a Finnish representative, that if I were a multi-billionaire with huge assets like Elon Musk, for example, I would travel to Los Angeles with the person in charge of these deceased companies and buy the traffic and copyrights of Pacific Electric Railway to I could rebuild, repair and thus reopen it, thus bringing back the former "best public transport in the world" back to Los Angeles and bringing it to my home country of Finland, to further improve our public transport even though it is actually the best in the world at the moment, education, health and equality in addition.
And I'll set it up so that the trams will be exactly the same as in this movie: similar in shape, size and design, albeit a bit more modern, with wide front and rear bumpers so that kids and adults like the kids and Eddie in that movie can themselves pick up and sit there. on top of them and travel, travel on trolleys in this way for free, and they drive on the rails embedded in the middle of the highway as seen in the film, although the trams also have to be built back, you can buy a ticket on the spot from the ticket seller like Eddie did ( pay for it either in cash or by card and I promise the price is nickel) or some kind of Pacific Electric app created for checking schedules and buying a ticket with a smartphone and terminal stations like in a movie, i.e. includes a waiting room and a bar, restaurant, though I'm going to set them up e so that children may also visit them, where snacks, coca-cola and other soft drinks and other delicacies are sold to children and teenagers where restaurant food and beer are sold to adults.
And I would invest both millions and billions of dollars and euros in the company's cash and cash equivalents on both the American and Finnish sides so that it would not have to be sold in cash to any company for financial difficulties, at least not immediately or at all if the money is kept as emergency and spent reasonably not almost any of them actually go away.
And before my death or possible resignation, I would make sure that the company is never, for whatever reason, or no matter how good the offers made by other companies, sold to any other company or entity so as not to be abused or liquidated again for one reason or another. don't get to repeat yourself.
That if I got the Pavific Electric Railway, even after it was liquidated, I would bring it to life, bring it back to the world map and inspired by the film alone :)
Why do you use photos from Sandusky, Ohio? There are tons of PE photos.
I remember the streetcars but I was pretty young then. I recall seeing them on Pacific Avenue in Huntington Park and how the overhead contact on the wire would spark from time to time. I recall being afraid of them because of that. My mother wouldn't us them. She said they were good until the traffic on the metro streets got busier and you'd have to stand out in the street to get on and off of them which was dangerous. Also I recall the wire grid in metro areas was very unsightly. I suppose using them to travel to outlying areas was better but has to have been inconvenient since you'd still need transportation from the station. If I remember right most people weren't too sad to see them go.
I rode those cars as a kid just for fun no to get lost .by myself .
Have trolleybuses exist in Los Angeles ?
Back in 1948, two of the LA Railway streetcar lines were converted to trolley bus lines by LA Transit Lines; they were abandoned at the same time the last five streetcar lines were closed.
@@DNRY122
Thanks. Sorry for " existe " instead of " existed " ! From Ardèche, France south-east, along Rhône Valley.
I play kooky rideing the red cars .
Between the options of driving and taking the Metro in LA, I much prefer driving. The last time I took the metro, I was sitting behind a homeless woman wielding a hammer who was threatening a homeless man that kept taunting her. My car is a more comfortable place to be.
It's a shame that the creator of this video placed unnecessary text boxes over much of the classic video shots.
Too bad LA didn't keep the PE LINES ACTIVE
24383
SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT IS SO GOOD ABOUT BUSES ??
THE Silence a lack of an answer is
is how they doop you onto a Stinky, Smelly, overcrowded ghetto machine.. City man Circa every day
Actually it's.. Cost.
Busses are actually designed to be a supplement to trains .. And as a Lower cost alternative for Lower density/capacity areas.
What happened was.. A LARGE ASS corruption scheme..That basically put the train out of Business. So the bus cold replace it.. No joke big oil and rubber Won that round.
Please don't picture equipment newer than the period you are discussing.
Sounds great until you omit the “RTD” (Rapid Transit District) 30year history..MTA takes over RTD in the mid to late 80’s you can not glaze over this elephant in L.A. sir
Fair enough! To be honest I don't know that much about RTD. The focus of this video was on the legacy of the streetcars, and to the best of my knowledge, RTD didn't operate any! That being said though, it would be interesting to see if the former streetcar routes had any effect on RTD route planning
@@jotoga yea its that period between 60-90’s “pre MTA era” of mass transportation in the greater Los Angeles region which is pretty big in metropolis proportions, just thought id add to it, nice bit of history thought yes thank you
@@jotoga SCRTD had an interesting role in all this.
The last of the former LA Railway lines ran until March 31st, 1963 (Some sources say real early April 1st)
SCRTD came into existence on November 5, 1964. So what happened in that year and a half? The narrow gauge streetcars could not be easily sold. And by the end of '63 it was already known that MTA was going to be replaced. So what happened with the streetcar system? The power to the wires was turned off, some of the tracks had been paved over. But the decision as to what to do with the system was not for MTA to do.
When SCRTD starts operations, they are the ones who made the decision to get rid of everything.
@@WeBoogie28 In the 1960s when I was a boy, the news media talked about the freeways of California were the best way to travel. Also at the same time the last electric bus lines in Los Angeles ended. The newspapers ant the TV networks also talked about smog alerts. I remember thinking , if they were so afraid of diesel smoke and gasoline fumes, why did Los Angeles get rid if all electric public transit? In that era the big thing was to have all big cities in America to have freeways like California. It was also the time Johnny Carson made fun of the smog and freeways of Los Angeles on the Tonight Show. I remember him making those jokes watching late night TV in NYC Mad Men era.
@@luislaplume8261 greedy rubber company execs grab at an opportunity to demonize the cleaner more efficient cable car industry
No streetcar or Matt Transit line was ever profitable after the introduction of the cheap American Automobile. Let's not forget during this time period American made cars for cheap you had good union wages and gasoline was cheap now gasoline is expensive the car is made in Korea and cost more than your house and we all work for minimum wage or just above that in real dollars so the prosperity that created the car buying public is not there anymore.
Interesting exciting Decadent Sad...
Los Angeles was offered the same opportunities several times and all offers were defeated at voter polls. OH WELL.
THE BUS IS A TOTAL FAILURE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Capitalist state/state capitalist.
The car killed the red car. period.
Great video