Great video series with the Cleveland- such an Underrated Small block! Would love to see your thoughts on the AMC 360/401, also pretty underrated for the Malaise era Muscle 💪🏻
Thank you Richard! This gave me the courage to Port, my 351 Windsor performer intake. I’m currently over halfway through. Matching them to my 200 cc heads. With matching gaskets. I have a 2 inch spacer and I cut the divider to have an open floor in the Plenum. It’s been four afternoons of fun
You're a good man Richard.. What I've noticed in quite a few shootouts is stock Cleveland heads taking on aftermarket aluminum and still keeping up with them and in some cases beating them. true engineers back late 1969 I'd love to meet the men that engineered those heads in cleveland ohio back then, and yes I know the original canted valve design was from a 396 Chevrolet first
The hot ticket with the 4V is to fill the dead spot in the bottom of the intake port to increase velocity. No need to make it much smaller, just keep the air from slowing down as it comes through the low part of the port. A tunnel ram fixes the problem to a great extent, and unless you are trying to get everything out of 4V heads, it isn't a mandatory thing to do. Its something you can do though that works quite well. The rumor back in the 70s and 80s was that the 4V was lacking low speed torque, except the ones I was building and driving could turn a pair of sticky 10" wide tires to molten goo just whacking the throttle from idle, no need to hold the brakes, and all my engines had was a cam swap and headers. 3.00 gears made it worse. I have a 4 bolt 4V headed 72 Cleveland on a stand in my shop waiting for a 4" crank, then its going in my 67 Cougar... for science and daily driver duty. Still have something like 4 sets of 4V heads laying around from when I was messing with them in the 80s.Got big into Pontiac after a 4 year hitch in the USAF, came back to building GTOs and Firebirds in the 90s. The C is the only small block to ever impress me. I can't wait to see what a 407ci 4V runs like.
Yeah so would I,, too give them an arse kicking!! Canted valve is good, intake and exhaust runner sizes is plain too big. Valves are too big unless you want to trurn over 8000 rpm where the dodgey oiling has failed and the engine exploded. Aussie 302C heads are far better.
@@ldnwholesale8552 😂 yeah you're right they weren't the greatest Street motors but I was mainly talking about the engines on the Dino shootouts even to this day it's hard to beat those stock Cleveland heads on cfm flow
@@dennisrobinson8008 will be a while yet, have a bunch of other things to do first. Fuel project, house, shop, two Pontiac builds, putting a 5 speed in the 65 GTO.. things like that.
In the Ford engine family the Cleveland and 385 the 2V or 4V does not just represent the number of barrels the carburetor has. On the 4V the runners and valves are much bigger for more power.
My mistake on the 385 engine family. You could get a 4 barrel carburetor on a none performance big block. It was the Boss, Cobra Jet, and Super Cobra Jet that had larger valves, runners and intake to get more performance.
@@hom240 If you are the Ohio George Montgomery you've probably forgotten more than anyone in this comment section will ever know in regards to Ford engines. I will always appreciate the advice OGM gave me when I was a young kid building my '91 Fox. Saved me a lot of money by deciding up front what I wanted from the build so I wasn't just throwing parts at it. I also took inspiration from his son's Boss 429. I still have the Fox with 24k on the odo.
@@tmmurphy Not him, not related to him, never meet him. I know of him, and did however live in Ohio for a little over a year in my teen years. Been a mechanic since 1986 and worked in a machine shop for 2 years rebuilding cylinder heads in Gainesville, FL.
I know this is two years old. But you did n mention what the port match was on the Funnel Web. Was it the same size as the 4V heads? Or smaller like the port match from the dual plane?
The Cleveland needs a much bigger cam. 275+@.050 and .650+lift. Then the difference between the singleplane and the dualplane would be dramatic. Those 4V Cleveland's were way undercammed. Takes a lot of engine to utilize the Parker Funnel Web. They shine on 600+hp combos.
Richard, I love your content and the various comparisons you do. My faves are the 351C and Ford 300. One thing, you stated that 2V is 2 valve and 4V are 4 valve heads. All 351C heads are 2 valves. The "V" is venturi or barrel referring to the type of carburetor. I'm certain you already know this, just slipped your mind when recording.
the main reason to put C heads on a W block is availability. There are millions of W blocks out there, and C blocks are harder to find. If you can find a complete C in either 2V or 4V, 2 bolt or 4 bolt, then you don't need the W bottom end. The Ws aren't stronger, there are simply a lot more of them.
@@MafiaboysWorld I know, Oz got the greatest small block ever for a very long time. If it didn't cost so much to get them here I would buy some from down under. Every so often I run into a 2V, but its much easier to find Pontiac parts. I like the C and Pontiac engines because the garden variety parts can make so much power. The 2V head flows very good and they only need a 4 barrel intake, headers, and a cam. Then the 4V with those same things is a monster.
@@SealofPerfection No. Shit. Sherlock. 🤦 What the F**K has your comment got to do with my comment? 🤨 All I said was make a Clevor and how readily available Cleveland's are here in Australia. 🤷
The Performer RPM has always been a great intake for a broad power curve and not choking off in the higher rpm's. Nice to see it works beautiful on both engines.
Love seeing this but which do you think is better though the 351W or 351C I got both blocks from a buddy of mine but haven’t decided which one to use yet
Yep us Aussies do love the good old clevo,My farther has ran em since before I was born.So naturally I followed suit,We both run mild mills.Mine is a 302 with a stage 2 camtec cam,2v heads,600 square bore with a Edlebrock performer intake, extractors and a FMX box in an XE Falcon wagon.Good cruiser
Back in the 90s my 71 boss Cleveland standard bore & stroke motor with stock Boss heads and a big ass 600 +lift solid roller bump stick, with a Holley Strip Dominator intake & 850 dbl pumper made 525 HP @ 7200 rpm on Bob Pettis's dyno ! Ya-cha ! Dropped it into a 3000 lb 67 pro street Mustang coupe and a 175 shot of NOS ! The Chevy boys hated my cuts !
@@richardholdener1727 Remember the 71 Boss 351 came with pop-up forged pistons, huge ports with 2.19 intake valves. Back in the Day hot Rod Magazine published an article stating( The 351 Cleveland can produce more horsepower per cubic inch than any other American made motor) Which was one of the main contributing factors why Mr. Bob Glidden totally dominated pro stock back in the 70s&80s Before NHRA change the rules to 500 in.³. So yes just adding a big ass cam, carburetor and headers will indeed produce over 500 HP with a Boss Cleveland.
@@richardholdener1727 Actually it would seem that way but people found out these were high rpm racing heads designed in the late 60's for Fords SCCA Trans Am racing program. They really didn't do much in mild passenger car use. In fact they were to "big" for that. They really didn't show what they could do unless used on what would have been considered a pretty wild engine for street back in those days.
Another great video! Had a 351C in Falcon GT, worked well with Edelbrock Performer and 750 Holley, mild Comp cam and mostly stock internals. Made just over 500hp at crank. Very reliable, my fave motor
If your vehicle is mostly street driven, go with a Dual Plane Intake Manifold. However, if you have a dedicated race engine that lives at high rpm or a modified, big-cubic-inch engine, then a Single Plane Intake Manifold may be better. You may also want to consider a Tunnel Ram. Either way, you need to match components that work in the same rpm range. This includes Camshaft RPM Range, Cylinder Head Intake Runner Volume, Carburetor CFM Rating, Header Primary Tube Diameter, Ignition System. - Summit Racing.
Have you ever tried a offenhauser 360 manifold I got one on my Cleveland with a very mild Street cam it seems to have lots of torque and throttle response but I'm not sure if a dual plane would be better what do you think
The single plane Cleveland would be much stronger with a 104 to 106 degree LSA. Or, a smaller cam say, 230 @ .050" and a 114 degree LSA. It's not a small block chevy.
You had no centrifigual, just total timing. Ok on a race engine, not nice on a street engine. On a hotrod engine Vacc adavance is generally useless. No race engine runs under say 3500 and by that time all mechanical advance is in. And then often wobbles a bit. A street engine seldom runs over 3500 in normal driving hence needing an advance curve so it does not detonate itself top death
Fascist Pedant Funny you say that. Now actually compare the FACTORY Windsor heads vs the factory Cleveland heads. This test the Cleveland heads were factory but the Windsor were HOLLEY heads. Hell test the smaller Cleveland 2v heads so its closer and not any complaining like Chevy boys do.
The Windsor had aftermarket heads , not stock , also it had a roller cam unlike the Cleveland flat tappet cam . That's why the hp/tq are not much different , the Cleveland had a little bigger cam too .
Goes to show you how advanced 4V heads were for their day. Still made more power and had a better torque curve than a roller cammed alloy headed windsor.
Ford liked to use V, as in venturi, to differentiate between 2 barrel and 4 barrel carbs. I noticed that too. Man a 4 valve Cleveland head... crazy, but the ports would be a lot smaller.
@@chipcurrey653 that's not entirely accurate. Where you didn't see much power gain you definitely would see a tighter AFR spread across all the cylinders. And the dual plane intake preferred the open spacer and the single plane preferred the 4 hole spacer
Good test, I would like to see 351 Cleveland will a weind tunnel ram with two 450 carbs (Not vac. Carb) against torker manifold & 750 double pumper. I would like to see how much more power the tunnel ram.
I love the 351C and to a smaller extent the 400M. Don't under estimate the 2V heads for street performance. They are the perfect candidates for budget builds or add on. 4V valves with a good pocket port blend, a good torque cam, a dual plane 4 barrel setup with headers really wake these engines up. The gains vs dollars is vary hard to beat.
I believe it. I love chevy's too. Just a cam change in a lack luster 400M would seem like a rocket strapped to your behind. It is a combination of parts that add up to the whole. So let me explain in "gross" horse power why these are great engines to modify at a vary low cost. Some of these estimations are in percentages of totals. Starting with a 250hp 351 2V with a gross rating of 250hp. (net 164 to 167 net) Set of heads with 4V valves and pocket blend 30hp. A torque can with a peck rpm of 5200 or so and eliminating the 8 degrees of retard 50hp. 35hp for a 4 barrel intake. 10 percent for headers and a dual exhaust. All this takes us to 401 gross horse power. In net terms this would be about 300hp. net. I would love someone to show me any other engine that can gain 130 plus NET horse power for under a grand$.
@@bigboreracing356 My point is you paid for the performance potential up front. Most boosted vehicles cost a heck of a lot more than non boosted ones. The most ridiculous argument could go like this. I bought this car with a NOS system in it. Why heck I added a couple of gallons of race gas, changed the NOS jets, and reduced the timing I added 160hp for under $30 bucks. Shazam!!!
The OEM Aussie heads actually have the "in between" intake ports, with closed chambers. They're really called 3V heads. I have a soft spot for the Clevelands, I grew up in the 70s, and Had a 4V in a 71 Torino that was rarely beat. I chewed up lots of big block cars with just a cam, intake, headers, and a 3:70 posi rear end behind the C6. Hindsight makes me weep out loud that I sold that car when I married.
Australian Clevos had 302 2V heads starting as small as 59cc, 351 @v heads starting around 70cc, And then the door stops from the US with humungous ports! From 72-82 both heads got larger chambers, XA XB heads live really well, XC XD XE 76-82 heads are stuffed because the valves run way too hot and burrow up the ports. ADR27A killed them, the reason they were culled off. The 4.1 alloy head 6s were as fast and used a LOT less petrol. More so as an efi version But otherwise really only 2 different heads. No real change from 72-82
@@bigboreracing356 Yeah, I knew plenty of guys that did a lot of back yard gutting and frankenstein stuff too, that made their toys run good. I am one of those guys. However, I am referring to a factory equipped car, with off the shelf parts available at the time. if your guy had put a Cleveland in that Pinto, even mildly equipped such as mine was, it would have have had an even harder donkey stomp, leaving those turd windsors crying. Have a nice day.
@@ldnwholesale8552 That was what I was talking about, the Aussie 2Vs with closed chambers, that we call the 3Vs here. The US Clevelands started out with closed chambers, and had open chamber 4V heads for a couple years by the time the Cleveland was discontinued in 1974 and the modifieds were out. We never had a closed chamber 2V Cleveland head here. The closed chambers were around 63cc, while the open chambers were around 76cc. As far as valve problems, the first year Boss 302s had a bigger intake valve that would get hot and start hitting the exhaust valve, so they reduced the intake valve size slightly in 1970. That was the only two years for the Boss 302, and the rest of the Clevelands never had this problem.
Even so... I thought for sure that Cleveland would've rocked. As we know, "Cleveland Rocks". Did not rock as hard as expected. Wrong cam! Just an idea. Maybe wilder cam would have allowed the Cleveland to shine.
Jnl Jnl there is no comparison. Yes the 400m made good torque but they only had the small port Cleveland 2v smog heads and junk 2 barrel carb. Hell I think the cam for a 400 was less than 200 over all duration and like .420 lift. Richard already put a 400m with a RV cam. It did ok but Richard used Cleveland pistons and the piston depth was to low in block. Then he put Pro Comp aftermarket Aluminum heads on it with intake spacers to run a Cleveland intake and a solid roller cam. Made real good hp/tq for only 8.5-9.0 compression. here, check the build out. czcams.com/video/WV3GRirgj0c/video.html
@@richardholdener1727 are you asking if I measured the piston depth? If so, then no because you built it not me. I was telling him about your 400 build because he was asking for a comparison between the Ford 400 and a BIg Block Chevy 396-402. Factory head to factory head there is no comparison between these engines. The 400m is a small block anyways, like the Chevy 400 small block. Seeing the 400m is 1" taller than a Cleveland and talking with TMeyer and just being around Cleveland's my whole life - I know the Cleveland piston is shorter than a 400m piston. Also when watching your video and the still shot of the "C" piston in the block, it looks more like a 1/4" in the hole than .060 like you mentioned. I wish Ford didn't change the 400 bell housing and motor mounts to a big block style. If they were like a small block I would have a 444 stoker 400m kit from Tim. www.tmeyerinc.com/product/rotating-assembly-351m-400-stroker/
@@nova467spanker I have 2 400m motors, one has the Cleveland edelbrock heads on it, with a tiny cam that still sounds stock it made 440 hp 5200 and 535tq at 3500 on the dyno, with conservative timing and 87 octane, with 93 and more timing it runs way better
@@morgan2373 i assumed, was just curious. If it was dumping out that power with open chambers I can find those all over. The closed chambers are harder to find. A set of fresh open are like 400, closed are closer to 1200. May as well go aftermarket at that price, although I would prefer old iron.
Hey richard, I heard you talking about having timing locked out for this test. Say you’re running efi, with a timing curve. Do you notice a difference in power output with timing locked out as opposed to ramped in? I don’t remember seeing an a to b test like that with the same engine.
Yes!! You need a seperate switch for the ignition,, get the engine cranking and make sure there is oil pressure then turn the ignition on. Otherwise they kill starters and engine sneezes can do damage. Chev, Ford, Holden Mopar,, all the same
Really surprised on the results of the 351c-funnel web. I even expected the 351c-funnel web to not lose as much low end torque compared to the Vic Jr since it has longer runners. I also thought it would’ve shined more and earlier on the top end.
Richard! I have a 351 Cleveland, stock block, stock crank, h beam rods, flat top pistons, as cast edelbrock rpm 2v heads, unknown specs engl solid flat tappet cam, airgap intake, 750 holley, in a fox body running mid 10's on motor and 8's on a 300 shot. It would be cool to see a similar Cleveland combo with the Edelbrock heads and airgap on the dyno
On the Cleveland when using a head with ports larger than the intake could the be an issue with the air slowing down do to the sudden change in the volume of space? Or even a vorticity at the entrance to the head disturbing air flow?
@@richardholdener1727 I was referring to the single plane vs dual plane. I thought you said the intake runners of the single plane were much larger than the head. You said you were expecting more out of the single plane.
Maybe go up on the compression 1/2 point on the Windsor with the rpm? Really surprised at that flat touqe range!! Almost pull my pontoon with that thing!
Richard, I have a 71 boss 351c motor that I received from my uncle when he had a 71 mach 1. I currently have the tall deck stroker Cleveland or otherwise known as the 400 in my hot rod. I plan on rebuilding that 351c on the side. From all the work you've done with Clevelands... what's your favorite build you've done on a 351c that would make a fun street toy?
I'd like o see this comparison between 2v and 4v heads. I've always been a fan of 2v heads. 4v heads worked best by building up the intake runners to increase velocity. 4v's only seemed to be a lot of fun with 4.11 gears. Throw long tube headers and an RPM on a 2v and you have a killer for the street.
I'm really interested in seeing the torque and horsepower curve straight off idle to 4,500-5,000 RPM. Especially with the Windsor as I now have an '82 F250 with the stock 2V 351W. Planning to run a new 4V intake and headers as the exhaust is half missing. I'd like to get as much low end torque as possible since it's a truck to be used for utility; hauling and possibly towing.
The 1999 Ford Windstar with the 3.8L Essex V6 is listed by insurance companies as a "Sport Van", and I wonder what are the chances of you getting one of those engines on the dyno? Maybe test some aftermarket parts?
Hi Richard, I Like this test!! I have a 1995 F150 with a stock roller 351 or 5.8 that I would like to get at least 500 hp and torque. I am Not looking to drag race because it's a 4x4 but rather get out of its own way! how about switching to E85. what in your experience would be the best over all combination with this vehicle?
vrm & LDN Wholesale: The Lima 385 and 335/ Boss 302/351 heads were designed by Phillip A Martel, ex GM, and they werent just Porcupine 427 MarkIV Mystery motor heads but a Heron style flat valve head designed to get better horsepower with less than Tunnel Port 427 or Tunnel Port 302 flow rates. After Bill Innes let Stirret redesign the Y block into the 221-351 family and Harold Grant take 150 pounds of iron out of a 272, Harold C McDonald taked Macara, Bill Gay and others to make heads that would survive on the lightened MEL Lima and 4.38 bore CEL1 plant engine blocks. The heads were ported with 4.37 sq in of ports size in a venturi shape to make more power than the SBC and BBC. Clear and simple. The prescription for making 2V and 4V Clevelands generate seamless low end, mid range and high end power is different. The team decided to block exhaust flow and add exhaust duration and use 2 plane intakes.Always.
Yo Rich. Have you already tested carb spacers? Is a 2 inch spacer - open plenum, still useable on top of a dual plane intake? Do we just want as much air fuel mixing as possible and thus taller spacers? or should they be kept squat? Thanks for the many insights. Fabulous. Matt. 351 Cleve. 2V. Edel. Perf. Holl 600cfm. Vehicle - Land Rover. Gearbox C4 auto. Diff.. 3:1
Spacers can definitely give ya more power. Get a 1/2 inch, 1 inch, and 2 inch and test them all on your ride. A 4 hole 2 inch might work better on a dualplane.
Okay great guys. So hard I'm searching up those tests of yours. I am now considering tig welding tubes in line with the 4 barrels in a 2 inch open plenum and testing this against other designs. I have a feeling these tube runners will have some sort of improvement.
The Boss heads were made for high rpm racing. That is proven here and in fact has been known since the 70's(in some of the comments here I can see people don't get what these heads are for). Really the rpm band is 4000-8000 for these heads as there were made for SCCA Trans Am racing. In the 80's Holley made a single plane intake called the Strip Dominator. At that time there was none better in America. I tried the "mild cam,dual plane(not an RPM air gap...they didn't exist), vac secondary 750 holley with long tubes" on a M code 351C. Total miss match. Thing would rev to 6800 with an Accel duel point distributor but did not make power there(this was in 1980). Once you machined the heads for screw in studs and guide plates(if you didn't have Boss heads) and started running much "larger" solid flat or roller cams and a single plane intake with a 850 cfm double pumper(that would be either the Edelbrock Torker intake or the Holley Strip Dominator when it came out) then you could see the potential of these heads. There were no fancy HP holley carbs or hyd roller cams back then. We did are own mods to Holley carbs in those days. :)
Love dyno comparisons! Any chance you can do a 460 intake manifold comparison? RPM Performer vs Weiand Stealth vs Air Gap vs Torker2 vs Stock vs Stock CJ vs Blue Thunder. I’ve never seen a test like that. Never even saw an RPM E vs Stealth which I’ve seen lots of requests for. Please?
Hey Richard, what about using a smaller port single plane manifold on the clevo, would be a much fairer comparison, considering you used one on the dual plane test.....
I think You used the wrong single plane on your mild Cleveland I run a mild Cleveland a the Drag strip and my Engine goes faster with a Torquer than it does with a Air gap. and I only run to 6200! Your funnel web may be a good high RPM intake but it is not working for you engine!
Richard on the 351w have you ever cut the middle out to match all of the other air gap manifolds? That would be a comparison that would be really interesting. It is the only one I have seen that is not knotched.
Going back through your catalog Richard and giving you likes on any videos I forgot to hit the button on.
much appreciated
I guess I keep my Torker in the box. Thanks
Great video series with the Cleveland- such an Underrated Small block! Would love to see your thoughts on the AMC 360/401, also pretty underrated for the Malaise era Muscle 💪🏻
Very surprising results wth the cleavaland
Try out the blue thunder dual plane
Great job, always love the 351C comparisons!
Thank you Richard! This gave me the courage to Port, my 351 Windsor performer intake. I’m currently over halfway through. Matching them to my 200 cc heads. With matching gaskets. I have a 2 inch spacer and I cut the divider to have an open floor in the Plenum. It’s been four afternoons of fun
Thanks, Richard! You know I like the Ford stuff
Right on Richard,, great showdown
Suprised you havent tried a blue thunder 4v manifold dor the 351c
You're a good man Richard..
What I've noticed in quite a few shootouts is stock Cleveland heads taking on aftermarket aluminum and still keeping up with them and in some cases beating them. true engineers back late 1969 I'd love to meet the men that engineered those heads in cleveland ohio back then, and yes I know the original canted valve design was from a 396 Chevrolet first
The hot ticket with the 4V is to fill the dead spot in the bottom of the intake port to increase velocity. No need to make it much smaller, just keep the air from slowing down as it comes through the low part of the port. A tunnel ram fixes the problem to a great extent, and unless you are trying to get everything out of 4V heads, it isn't a mandatory thing to do. Its something you can do though that works quite well.
The rumor back in the 70s and 80s was that the 4V was lacking low speed torque, except the ones I was building and driving could turn a pair of sticky 10" wide tires to molten goo just whacking the throttle from idle, no need to hold the brakes, and all my engines had was a cam swap and headers. 3.00 gears made it worse.
I have a 4 bolt 4V headed 72 Cleveland on a stand in my shop waiting for a 4" crank, then its going in my 67 Cougar... for science and daily driver duty. Still have something like 4 sets of 4V heads laying around from when I was messing with them in the 80s.Got big into Pontiac after a 4 year hitch in the USAF, came back to building GTOs and Firebirds in the 90s. The C is the only small block to ever impress me. I can't wait to see what a 407ci 4V runs like.
Yeah so would I,, too give them an arse kicking!! Canted valve is good, intake and exhaust runner sizes is plain too big. Valves are too big unless you want to trurn over 8000 rpm where the dodgey oiling has failed and the engine exploded.
Aussie 302C heads are far better.
@@ldnwholesale8552 😂 yeah you're right they weren't the greatest Street motors but I was mainly talking about the engines on the Dino shootouts even to this day it's hard to beat those stock Cleveland heads on cfm flow
@@SweatyFatGuy Hows your Cleveland builds going? A good Cleveland deserves 400+ ci.
@@dennisrobinson8008 will be a while yet, have a bunch of other things to do first. Fuel project, house, shop, two Pontiac builds, putting a 5 speed in the 65 GTO.. things like that.
RICHARD HOLDENER FOR PRESIDENT
Someone else may have addressed this but, the V in 2V or 4V indicates venturi, not valve.
In the Ford engine family the Cleveland and 385 the 2V or 4V does not just represent the number of barrels the carburetor has. On the 4V the runners and valves are much bigger for more power.
@@hom240 That goes without saying.
My mistake on the 385 engine family. You could get a 4 barrel carburetor on a none performance big block. It was the Boss, Cobra Jet, and Super Cobra Jet that had larger valves, runners and intake to get more performance.
@@hom240 If you are the Ohio George Montgomery you've probably forgotten more than anyone in this comment section will ever know in regards to Ford engines. I will always appreciate the advice OGM gave me when I was a young kid building my '91 Fox. Saved me a lot of money by deciding up front what I wanted from the build so I wasn't just throwing parts at it. I also took inspiration from his son's Boss 429. I still have the Fox with 24k on the odo.
@@tmmurphy Not him, not related to him, never meet him. I know of him, and did however live in Ohio for a little over a year in my teen years. Been a mechanic since 1986 and worked in a machine shop for 2 years rebuilding cylinder heads in Gainesville, FL.
I know this is two years old. But you did n mention what the port match was on the Funnel Web. Was it the same size as the 4V heads? Or smaller like the port match from the dual plane?
Have you ever done a Cleveland comparison between open and closed chamber heads on the 2V heads ?
Would be cool to have 2V cleveland tests too, they’re more common than 4V engines.
The Cleveland needs a much bigger cam. 275+@.050 and .650+lift. Then the difference between the singleplane and the dualplane would be dramatic. Those 4V Cleveland's were way undercammed. Takes a lot of engine to utilize the Parker Funnel Web. They shine on 600+hp combos.
Very true, most of these youngsters don’t have a clue what the 351c is capable of, even without aftermarket heads,
Richard, I love your content and the various comparisons you do. My faves are the 351C and Ford 300.
One thing, you stated that 2V is 2 valve and 4V are 4 valve heads. All 351C heads are 2 valves. The "V" is venturi or barrel referring to the type of carburetor. I'm certain you already know this, just slipped your mind when recording.
Time to combine them and make a Clevor.
the main reason to put C heads on a W block is availability. There are millions of W blocks out there, and C blocks are harder to find. If you can find a complete C in either 2V or 4V, 2 bolt or 4 bolt, then you don't need the W bottom end. The Ws aren't stronger, there are simply a lot more of them.
@@SweatyFatGuy Maybe in America, in Australia it's the opposite. Cleveland's are more readily available than any Windsor. 👍
@@MafiaboysWorld I know, Oz got the greatest small block ever for a very long time. If it didn't cost so much to get them here I would buy some from down under. Every so often I run into a 2V, but its much easier to find Pontiac parts.
I like the C and Pontiac engines because the garden variety parts can make so much power. The 2V head flows very good and they only need a 4 barrel intake, headers, and a cam. Then the 4V with those same things is a monster.
@@MafiaboysWorld Yeah, but the heads are the heads. That's where the power comes from.
@@SealofPerfection No. Shit. Sherlock. 🤦
What the F**K has your comment got to do with my comment? 🤨 All I said was make a Clevor and how readily available Cleveland's are here in Australia. 🤷
The Performer RPM has always been a great intake for a broad power curve and not choking off in the higher rpm's. Nice to see it works beautiful on both engines.
Love seeing this but which do you think is better though the 351W or 351C I got both blocks from a buddy of mine but haven’t decided which one to use yet
351C heads are better
@@richardholdener1727 i think I wrote it wrong I have both blocks was wondering which block is better
I want to see numbers on 351 4V Blue Thunder intake!!
Please
Yep us Aussies do love the good old clevo,My farther has ran em since before I was born.So naturally I followed suit,We both run mild mills.Mine is a 302 with a stage 2 camtec cam,2v heads,600 square bore with a Edlebrock performer intake, extractors and a FMX box in an XE Falcon wagon.Good cruiser
Back in the 90s my 71 boss Cleveland standard bore & stroke motor with stock Boss heads and a big ass 600 +lift solid roller bump stick, with a Holley Strip Dominator intake & 850 dbl pumper made 525 HP @ 7200 rpm on Bob Pettis's dyno ! Ya-cha ! Dropped it into a 3000 lb 67 pro street Mustang coupe and a 175 shot of NOS ! The Chevy boys hated my cuts !
525 hp seems like a lot for a cam and intake upgrade
@@richardholdener1727 Remember the 71 Boss 351 came with pop-up forged pistons, huge ports with 2.19 intake valves.
Back in the Day hot Rod Magazine published an article stating( The 351 Cleveland can produce more horsepower per cubic inch than any other American made motor)
Which was one of the main contributing factors why Mr. Bob Glidden totally dominated pro stock back in the 70s&80s
Before NHRA change the rules to 500 in.³.
So yes just adding a big ass cam, carburetor and headers will indeed produce over 500 HP with a Boss Cleveland.
@@richardholdener1727 Actually it would seem that way but people found out these were high rpm racing heads designed in the late 60's for Fords SCCA Trans Am racing program. They really didn't do much in mild passenger car use. In fact they were to "big" for that. They really didn't show what they could do unless used on what would have been considered a pretty wild engine for street back in those days.
@@robertstewart3086 I total agree with this and I had that article too :)
Another great video! Had a 351C in Falcon GT, worked well with Edelbrock Performer and 750 Holley, mild Comp cam and mostly stock internals. Made just over 500hp at crank. Very reliable, my fave motor
How much nitrous ? That's 393 Chi heads and a roller cam numbers lol.
If your vehicle is mostly street driven, go with a Dual Plane Intake Manifold. However, if you have a dedicated race engine that lives at high rpm or a modified, big-cubic-inch engine, then a Single Plane Intake Manifold may be better. You may also want to consider a Tunnel Ram. Either way, you need to match components that work in the same rpm range.
This includes Camshaft RPM Range, Cylinder Head Intake Runner Volume, Carburetor CFM Rating, Header Primary Tube Diameter, Ignition System.
- Summit Racing.
4v heads are only for the dragstip
Cleveland's need more carb ...a 850 or 950 would make 20 more hp
NO
Have you ever tried a offenhauser 360 manifold I got one on my Cleveland with a very mild Street cam it seems to have lots of torque and throttle response but I'm not sure if a dual plane would be better what do you think
I HAVE NEVER SEEN A SINGLE PLANE MAKE BETTER LOW SPEED OR MID RANGE THAN A DUAL PLANE
More Cleveland videos please!
Cleveland all day every day!
The single plane Cleveland would be much stronger with a 104 to 106 degree LSA. Or, a smaller cam say, 230 @ .050" and a 114 degree LSA. It's not a small block chevy.
a cam change would change power with both intakes-it doesn't just work with 1
@@richardholdener1727 true.
More cleveland!
All the cleveland!!!!!
The cam is too mild for the single plane/Cleveland. She needs a lot more.
How about the funnel web intake with 10lbs of boost?
could someone explain to me ,no vacc advance timing?. no vacc port on my future carb. . so just go total timing out of the gate?
you have centrifugal advance still
OK on the dyno at full throttle. Will likely give poor fuel economy on the street at partial throttle.
You had no centrifigual, just total timing. Ok on a race engine, not nice on a street engine. On a hotrod engine Vacc adavance is generally useless.
No race engine runs under say 3500 and by that time all mechanical advance is in. And then often wobbles a bit. A street engine seldom runs over 3500 in normal driving hence needing an advance curve so it does not detonate itself top death
I wouldn't say the Cleveland did better than the Windsor, for a head with so much more flow.
Fascist Pedant Funny you say that. Now actually compare the FACTORY Windsor heads vs the factory Cleveland heads. This test the Cleveland heads were factory but the Windsor were HOLLEY heads. Hell test the smaller Cleveland 2v heads so its closer and not any complaining like Chevy boys do.
The Windsor had aftermarket heads , not stock , also it had a roller cam unlike the Cleveland flat tappet cam . That's why the hp/tq are not much different , the Cleveland had a little bigger cam too .
@@nova467spanker Yeah, the flow numbers he quoted stuck in my head.
Goes to show you how advanced 4V heads were for their day. Still made more power and had a better torque curve than a roller cammed alloy headed windsor.
Not enough cam & or CI to take advantage of the single plane.
Especially on that 351w.
We love all the testing and information.
Dang Richard had mod motors on the brain when he discussed the intake port size in comparison to head port size lol
yes-4v vs 4 valve
I forgive you😎
Ford liked to use V, as in venturi, to differentiate between 2 barrel and 4 barrel carbs. I noticed that too. Man a 4 valve Cleveland head... crazy, but the ports would be a lot smaller.
Most aftermarket 351c heads are referred as a 3v. Basically a 4v with a filled bottom such as a Chi 3v.
I've got a 400 that I've done and cannot wait to get it together....cam is a bit mild but I think ill be happy with it
Thanks again Richard! Would love to see how much cam & RPM it would take before the single plane came into its own.
Hey rich, you say you tested a stroked cleveland in this video and I searched your page and can't seem to find it. Do you have it published yet?
this is all cool..but i still wanna see some y block stuff...
FE , I agree.
Im an FE nut as well, and I dearly wish i wasn't half the country away from him as I would Donate one of my FEs just to see what he could do
try using a 1/2" spacer on a dual plane for more power .have you done a carb spacer shoot out on the dyno ?
Engine masters on motortrend did...they didn't do anything
@@chipcurrey653 that's not entirely accurate. Where you didn't see much power gain you definitely would see a tighter AFR spread across all the cylinders. And the dual plane intake preferred the open spacer and the single plane preferred the 4 hole spacer
Good test, I would like to see 351 Cleveland will a weind tunnel ram with two 450 carbs (Not vac. Carb) against torker manifold & 750 double pumper. I would like to see how much more power the tunnel ram.
I did that on a 383 if I remember right
@@richardholdener1727 I will have to look up the video. I have both manifolds & carbs. The tunnel ram is way better.Thanks 👍
Half the time it seems like you're better off with the dual plane, unless you're turning 8,000 rpm
I feel like putting the whisky bottle back up on the chandelier and going outside now. 👍
Thank you so much for this video rich. 🤘
Sounds like the rpm package will be great for my 94F150 flareside!
Right on
I love the 351C and to a smaller extent the 400M. Don't under estimate the 2V heads for street performance. They are the perfect candidates for budget builds or add on. 4V valves with a good pocket port blend, a good torque cam, a dual plane 4 barrel setup with headers really wake these engines up. The gains vs dollars is vary hard to beat.
I believe it. I love chevy's too. Just a cam change in a lack luster 400M would seem like a rocket strapped to your behind. It is a combination of parts that add up to the whole. So let me explain in "gross" horse power why these are great engines to modify at a vary low cost. Some of these estimations are in percentages of totals. Starting with a 250hp 351 2V with a gross rating of 250hp. (net 164 to 167 net) Set of heads with 4V valves and pocket blend 30hp. A torque can with a peck rpm of 5200 or so and eliminating the 8 degrees of retard 50hp. 35hp for a 4 barrel intake. 10 percent for headers and a dual exhaust. All this takes us to 401 gross horse power. In net terms this would be about 300hp. net. I would love someone to show me any other engine that can gain 130 plus NET horse power for under a grand$.
@@bigboreracing356 And your Cummins diesel cost how much?
@@bigboreracing356 My point is you paid for the performance potential up front. Most boosted vehicles cost a heck of a lot more than non boosted ones. The most ridiculous argument could go like this. I bought this car with a NOS system in it. Why heck I added a couple of gallons of race gas, changed the NOS jets, and reduced the timing I added 160hp for under $30 bucks. Shazam!!!
400m. People don't know what they are talking about. I wonder how much else they don't know.
The OEM Aussie heads actually have the "in between" intake ports, with closed chambers. They're really called 3V heads. I have a soft spot for the Clevelands, I grew up in the 70s, and Had a 4V in a 71 Torino that was rarely beat. I chewed up lots of big block cars with just a cam, intake, headers, and a 3:70 posi rear end behind the C6. Hindsight makes me weep out loud that I sold that car when I married.
Australian Clevos had 302 2V heads starting as small as 59cc, 351 @v heads starting around 70cc, And then the door stops from the US with humungous ports! From 72-82 both heads got larger chambers, XA XB heads live really well, XC XD XE 76-82 heads are stuffed because the valves run way too hot and burrow up the ports. ADR27A killed them, the reason they were culled off. The 4.1 alloy head 6s were as fast and used a LOT less petrol. More so as an efi version
But otherwise really only 2 different heads. No real change from 72-82
@@bigboreracing356 Yeah, I knew plenty of guys that did a lot of back yard gutting and frankenstein stuff too, that made their toys run good. I am one of those guys. However, I am referring to a factory equipped car, with off the shelf parts available at the time. if your guy had put a Cleveland in that Pinto, even mildly equipped such as mine was, it would have have had an even harder donkey stomp, leaving those turd windsors crying. Have a nice day.
@@ldnwholesale8552 That was what I was talking about, the Aussie 2Vs with closed chambers, that we call the 3Vs here. The US Clevelands started out with closed chambers, and had open chamber 4V heads for a couple years by the time the Cleveland was discontinued in 1974 and the modifieds were out. We never had a closed chamber 2V Cleveland head here. The closed chambers were around 63cc, while the open chambers were around 76cc. As far as valve problems, the first year Boss 302s had a bigger intake valve that would get hot and start hitting the exhaust valve, so they reduced the intake valve size slightly in 1970. That was the only two years for the Boss 302, and the rest of the Clevelands never had this problem.
Even so... I thought for sure that Cleveland would've rocked. As we know, "Cleveland Rocks". Did not rock as hard as expected. Wrong cam! Just an idea. Maybe wilder cam would have allowed the Cleveland to shine.
How about a canted valve work truck motor comparison. In the blue oval corner the 400m . in the bowtie corner the 396/402 big block chevy.
Jnl Jnl there is no comparison. Yes the 400m made good torque but they only had the small port Cleveland 2v smog heads and junk 2 barrel carb. Hell I think the cam for a 400 was less than 200 over all duration and like .420 lift. Richard already put a 400m with a RV cam. It did ok but Richard used Cleveland pistons and the piston depth was to low in block. Then he put Pro Comp aftermarket Aluminum heads on it with intake spacers to run a Cleveland intake and a solid roller cam. Made real good hp/tq for only 8.5-9.0 compression. here, check the build out. czcams.com/video/WV3GRirgj0c/video.html
did you measure the piston depth?
I admit to knowing sod all about 400m but if the small port m head is the same port as a small port cleveland then let the games begin.
@@richardholdener1727 are you asking if I measured the piston depth? If so, then no because you built it not me.
I was telling him about your 400 build because he was asking for a comparison between the Ford 400 and a BIg Block Chevy 396-402. Factory head to factory head there is no comparison between these engines. The 400m is a small block anyways, like the Chevy 400 small block.
Seeing the 400m is 1" taller than a Cleveland and talking with TMeyer and just being around Cleveland's my whole life - I know the Cleveland piston is shorter than a 400m piston. Also when watching your video and the still shot of the "C" piston in the block, it looks more like a 1/4" in the hole than .060 like you mentioned. I wish Ford didn't change the 400 bell housing and motor mounts to a big block style. If they were like a small block I would have a 444 stoker 400m kit from Tim.
www.tmeyerinc.com/product/rotating-assembly-351m-400-stroker/
@@nova467spanker I have 2 400m motors, one has the Cleveland edelbrock heads on it, with a tiny cam that still sounds stock it made 440 hp 5200 and 535tq at 3500 on the dyno, with conservative timing and 87 octane, with 93 and more timing it runs way better
Totaly backwards.
I'd like to see some testing with dual plane intake manifolds and maybe some simple modifications.
I would like to see a set 351 2V closed chambered aussie bolted up to the test motor....or a 400M with closed chambered aussie heads for comparison.
What's a 400m ?
@Richard Holdener, were these closed chamber 4V heads?
I saw the other videos he mentioned with that same Cleveland. Pretty sure closed chamber.
@@morgan2373 i assumed, was just curious. If it was dumping out that power with open chambers I can find those all over. The closed chambers are harder to find. A set of fresh open are like 400, closed are closer to 1200. May as well go aftermarket at that price, although I would prefer old iron.
closed
@@richardholdener1727 thanks Richard.
Richard, have you ever tested one of the small runner low rise single plane intakes, like the Weiand Xcelerator or the Edelbrock Torker(1st version)?
Richard, could a carb spacer have improved output on the single plane intakes, particularly the 351C?
Hey richard, I heard you talking about having timing locked out for this test. Say you’re running efi, with a timing curve. Do you notice a difference in power output with timing locked out as opposed to ramped in? I don’t remember seeing an a to b test like that with the same engine.
Try listening to this at half speed. Fun!
I am Very Interested in Your
Both of your HyperGate45 Waste gates
& .
Your - ford 5.0 Vortech supercharger
Price Please
Thanks George
Were do we get these Cleveland heads that have 3 valves!
Are engines with locked out distributors @ 35 degrees BTC hard to start?
sometimes
Set it up so the starter has the motor spinning before you turn on the ignition.
Depends on cam timing. If the cam is small, it can be. If the cam timing is rowdy and bleeds off compression, it'll spin easy.
dual starters on the dyno
Yes!! You need a seperate switch for the ignition,, get the engine cranking and make sure there is oil pressure then turn the ignition on. Otherwise they kill starters and engine sneezes can do damage. Chev, Ford, Holden Mopar,, all the same
Hello Friend, any chance you have any footage on the Oldsmobile 455? Or should we look forward to any? Your the best in the business sir!
No, sorry I don't have any Olds testing yet
Really surprised on the results of the 351c-funnel web. I even expected the 351c-funnel web to not lose as much low end torque compared to the Vic Jr since it has longer runners. I also thought it would’ve shined more and earlier on the top end.
Would the 400 with the 4v heads make that kind of power? I'm in the process of building a 400 ford . But I've got factory heads .
Nice video! Thanks for sharing 🤙
Richard! I have a 351 Cleveland, stock block, stock crank, h beam rods, flat top pistons, as cast edelbrock rpm 2v heads, unknown specs engl solid flat tappet cam, airgap intake, 750 holley, in a fox body running mid 10's on motor and 8's on a 300 shot. It would be cool to see a similar Cleveland combo with the Edelbrock heads and airgap on the dyno
wish i still had the 4V
Those Holley systemax heads made some power
4V Clevelands love tunnel rams.
Someone suggested using a Torker 2 intake on a BBF build with SR-71 heads. Isn’t the Torker 2 old technology?
On the Cleveland when using a head with ports larger than the intake could the be an issue with the air slowing down do to the sudden change in the volume of space? Or even a vorticity at the entrance to the head disturbing air flow?
LOOK AT THE DYNO RESULTS OF THE INTAKE SWAP-IT ADDED A LOT OF POWER
@@richardholdener1727 I was referring to the single plane vs dual plane. I thought you said the intake runners of the single plane were much larger than the head. You said you were expecting more out of the single plane.
How does the exhaust port flow on the Cleveland head, if it can be made to flow 80 percent of the intake that would be great.
Maybe go up on the compression 1/2 point on the Windsor with the rpm? Really surprised at that flat touqe range!! Almost pull my pontoon with that thing!
Richard, I have a 71 boss 351c motor that I received from my uncle when he had a 71 mach 1. I currently have the tall deck stroker Cleveland or otherwise known as the 400 in my hot rod. I plan on rebuilding that 351c on the side. From all the work you've done with Clevelands... what's your favorite build you've done on a 351c that would make a fun street toy?
Could it be valve placements and chamber shape that changes what kind of intake it likes
single plane is for higher engine speeds than dual plane on both motors
Where is your racing Nova?
I'd like o see this comparison between 2v and 4v heads. I've always been a fan of 2v heads. 4v heads worked best by building up the intake runners to increase velocity. 4v's only seemed to be a lot of fun with 4.11 gears. Throw long tube headers and an RPM on a 2v and you have a killer for the street.
4Vs make great door stops!!
I'm really interested in seeing the torque and horsepower curve straight off idle to 4,500-5,000 RPM. Especially with the Windsor as I now have an '82 F250 with the stock 2V 351W. Planning to run a new 4V intake and headers as the exhaust is half missing. I'd like to get as much low end torque as possible since it's a truck to be used for utility; hauling and possibly towing.
Hi Richard, great video. Could you possibly do this test with a Pontiac engine?
The 1999 Ford Windstar with the 3.8L Essex V6 is listed by insurance companies as a "Sport Van", and I wonder what are the chances of you getting one of those engines on the dyno? Maybe test some aftermarket parts?
Please Rich a 427 next
Hi Richard, I Like this test!! I have a 1995 F150 with a stock roller 351 or 5.8 that I would like to get at least 500 hp and torque. I am
Not looking to drag race because it's a 4x4 but rather get out of its own way! how about switching to E85. what in your experience would be the best over all combination with this vehicle?
heads, cam and intake can help, but 500 hp takes a lot of cam in a 351W
Have you tried the weiand xcellerator intake on it?
"Nathan Higgins"
Depends on engine speed. Right? Single plane for the high rpm win!
vrm & LDN Wholesale: The Lima 385 and 335/ Boss 302/351 heads were designed by Phillip A Martel, ex GM, and they werent just Porcupine 427 MarkIV Mystery motor heads but a Heron style flat valve head designed to get better horsepower with less than Tunnel Port 427 or Tunnel Port 302 flow rates. After Bill Innes let Stirret redesign the Y block into the 221-351 family and Harold Grant take 150 pounds of iron out of a 272, Harold C McDonald taked Macara, Bill Gay and others to make heads that would survive on the lightened MEL Lima and 4.38 bore CEL1 plant engine blocks. The heads were ported with 4.37 sq in of ports size in a venturi shape to make more power than the SBC and BBC. Clear and simple. The prescription for making 2V and 4V Clevelands generate seamless low end, mid range and high end power is different. The team decided to block exhaust flow and add exhaust duration and use 2 plane intakes.Always.
Yo Rich. Have you already tested carb spacers? Is a 2 inch spacer - open plenum, still useable on top of a dual plane intake? Do we just want as much air fuel mixing as possible and thus taller spacers? or should they be kept squat? Thanks for the many insights. Fabulous. Matt. 351 Cleve. 2V. Edel. Perf. Holl 600cfm. Vehicle - Land Rover. Gearbox C4 auto. Diff.. 3:1
Spacers can definitely give ya more power. Get a 1/2 inch, 1 inch, and 2 inch and test them all on your ride. A 4 hole 2 inch might work better on a dualplane.
Milled divider on the dualplane will usually pick it up too.
Yes I have run lots of spacer tests-there is no universal yes or no
Okay great guys. So hard I'm searching up those tests of yours. I am now considering tig welding tubes in line with the 4 barrels in a 2 inch open plenum and testing this against other designs. I have a feeling these tube runners will have some sort of improvement.
Just an ide.Try a Edelbrock Scoperian #2765 Ford for a 4v head.Its good for 4000 - 7500 RPM with a Holly 850 cfm carb.You will see a differance.
Did you do a 4v performer vs the air gap on the Cleveland? I would love to see the results of this.
ONLY THE AIR GAP
R.H. ……………..more torque than HP don't forget those were 17 degree heads, also standing the valves promote good torque ???????
The Boss heads were made for high rpm racing. That is proven here and in fact has been known since the 70's(in some of the comments here I can see people don't get what these heads are for). Really the rpm band is 4000-8000 for these heads as there were made for SCCA Trans Am racing. In the 80's Holley made a single plane intake called the Strip Dominator. At that time there was none better in America. I tried the "mild cam,dual plane(not an RPM air gap...they didn't exist), vac secondary 750 holley with long tubes" on a M code 351C. Total miss match. Thing would rev to 6800 with an Accel duel point distributor but did not make power there(this was in 1980).
Once you machined the heads for screw in studs and guide plates(if you didn't have Boss heads) and started running much "larger" solid flat or roller cams and a single plane intake with a 850 cfm double pumper(that would be either the Edelbrock Torker intake or the Holley Strip Dominator when it came out) then you could see the potential of these heads. There were no fancy HP holley carbs or hyd roller cams back then. We did are own mods to Holley carbs in those days. :)
please take a closer look at the actual torque data-on this Boss 351 and the Boss 302-the Boss heads worked well down low
Not to mention the Cleveland was board 30 over. The Windsor could have been board more than 50 over because the block is thicker.
What would be cool if you built one of each the same 351c 351m 351w and see which one makes the most power with the same parts
the heads are all different, and intakes, and cams
Love dyno comparisons! Any chance you can do a 460 intake manifold comparison? RPM Performer vs Weiand Stealth vs Air Gap vs Torker2 vs Stock vs Stock CJ vs Blue Thunder. I’ve never seen a test like that. Never even saw an RPM E vs Stealth which I’ve seen lots of requests for. Please?
Hey Richard, what about using a smaller port single plane manifold on the clevo, would be a much fairer comparison, considering you used one on the dual plane test.....
I think You used the wrong single plane on your mild Cleveland I run a mild Cleveland a the Drag strip and my Engine goes faster with a Torquer than it does with a Air gap. and I only run to 6200! Your funnel web may be a good high RPM intake but it is not working for you engine!
Richard on the 351w have you ever cut the middle out to match all of the other air gap manifolds? That would be a comparison that would be really interesting. It is the only one I have seen that is not knotched.
Not gm 👍