Turbo Failure analysed
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- čas přidán 14. 03. 2021
- We received a failed CHRA aswell as an additional compressor wheel from a client who wanted us to provide an indication into the failure mechanism. This is not a simple failure, and involves alot more than a simple "one of the 4 big killers of turbochargers" I hope you enjoy this - lets interact in the comments section below --
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
Chris you are truly the professor of turbos, love your vids mate.
Thank you Floyd! I appreciate your compliment !
Brilliant deductive work, Chris. Kudos to you and your team.
P.S. Compliments too to the camera person for zooming in and out at the appropriate moments. The production quality of the channel has really grown in leaps and bounds!
Thanks Eric - much appreciated sir. We are of the opinion, "the customer / subscriber asked for it - so be it. :-)
Excellent explanation. I like technical, the more the better, it forces me to delve deeper and learn more. Thank you for sharing!
That was awesome!! Most enjoyable, as it kept me on the edge of my seat. Great story telling, my friend. Yes, I learned something - LOL
Thank you for the compliment - glad you learned something :-)
I had an om605 engine with a bent blade just like this and heavy erosion on the leading edge, interesting analysis
Hey Chris, love the video. From the information you have given, and from from what I can see. I am thinking it is from the PCV system. The newer low tension compression rings on the piston rings causing lots of blow by. The carbon builds up in the hoses and gets broken off hitting the blade. The only reason I am saying that is I work on Turbine fan blades are not that dirty. However they have erosion.
Correct sir - however this specific engine does have carbon build up which flows through the breather.
That is one amazing explanation. That clearly gives a perfect reason why mine failed.
Wow that's very interesting. At first when you were discussing the CNC process I thought perhaps two cuts of the point mill had fallen along the same line creating extra thin areas in the blade. The erosion makes so much sense though. Also interesting to think about how the very small channels created by the milling will create air channels and therefore areas of more and less erosion. I wonder if a different milling pattern alone could make a large difference. Great video!
A Radius is the best shape to machine anything with, as it negates the possibility of a surface fracture form starting. The point milling is not used for air flow as much as material fatigue/fracture purposes.
Thats where my thought process was going
@@antonymintram8790 It's all really cool analysis!
Very good explenation
Thank you
Very Practical Analysis.Thanks Chris!!
Glad you enjoyed.
Really good video. Thanks for the info!
Pleasure - glad you enjoyed this.
Great explanation. Thanks Chris
Thanks Pal - glad you enjoyed.
Excellent
This is way above my pay grade, but I believe you! Lol!
Hi thx for a wonderful analysis. Iv a massive radial play just three working days after fitting new core. So much so that oil is leaking through the exhaust side and its burning the oil. Please advise
This could be a number of things - we would need to disassemble the turbo and inspect it to ascertain the cause of failure.
excellent presentation. When you started calculating tip speeds, I though it might lead to trans sonic shock waves due to overspeeding. ie constantly cycling above and below mach 1, with corrections for air density and humidity. ie maybe a low working altitude with high humidity (deep mining application). Your explanation is far less esoteric. did a catch can solve the issues?
Thanks for the feedback
Seen it on older PSA engines, also used in Fords. OEM's turn a blind eye though...
I hear you - Ford have the same approach on one of the models here - we did the evaluation for Garrett directly.
Looks like a good catch can would help a lot with this sort of problem.
One question. How thick is the blade originally?
Watching this video and seeing the speed of the outer parts of the blades has made me wonder how many compressor and turbine wheels exceed Mach 1. The engineers must have had their jobs cut out looking at the effects on the airflow with sonic shock waves being formed.
The speeds that these rotate at are alot faster than you might expect. Some OEM turbochargers tip speeds exceed 1700KM/h
I had a turbo fail. The shaft broke right before the exhaust wheel. It appears to have had plenty of oil for lubrication. No signs of heat damage. So trying to figure reasons for this to even happen. This is a garett turbo
Are you able to shoot across some pictures of the disassembled turbo ?? If so send to info@turbodirect.co.za
due to speed and hardness of the metal it would take impact at a relatively high speed strange its only one blade no glancing signs or recoshae after straightening boat props you have to be particularly careful how you reverse the damage that thin of metal cant take much stress .
Would a catch can between the turbo and valve cover keep some of PCV Shmoo/ airborne carbon off the wheel to prevent the next failure?
Customer states multiple repeated same mode failures. A) how many? B) how long did it take to accumulate sufficient erosion to allow bending/failure?
( (b) will show just how sensitive the wheels are. I'm assumeing they(3 or more)were rather short lived.)
Orange peel on back side is a mid range indicator of repeated over-speed,on its well on its way to failure.
Is there any way other than the spec gage(from borg or gerrett) , orange peel, or gross failure to tell if a unit is experiencing over-speed? Eg stress marks/striations, color gradiants at or around the typical brake piont?
No need - this is outside of the design parameters of the turbocharger. A breathing engine is doing so for a reason - find that and fix it, problem solved - dont forget the turbo though.
These vehicles have very high mileage on them, and more than likely missed schedules and/or prolonged maintenance negligence that caused engine problems - knock on effect. Total numbers we have seen are in the 10's currently, but expecting alot more to be honest.
Orange peel is what you see when a wheel is over-sped - it shows the analyst what the cause or contribution to the cause of failure was - unfortunately this is after the failure occurs.
Overspeed has no real symptoms during operation, however it causes gradual and consistent damage until failure - once the effects have started, they are not reversible. Extreme boost levels, poor tuning, "hybrid" upgrades with incorrect wheel choice ... some of many contributing factors.
Once the failure occurs, we are able to use the striations to determine the initiation point of the surface fracture, and (believe it or not) the total cycle revolutions until material failure.
@@TurboDirectSA I have seen someone report a turbo over speed error message on a 2020 golf r... :)
@@Archiemosses We see this daily - it doesnt bend blades though.
If the blade is 0.3mm after erosion, what thickness did it start at? Nice video 👍
Hi Chris, thanks for the great info, what would you say can possibly cause, turbine leading edges breaking off? , but not all just one sometimes and there’s no signs of heat corrosion on the edges??? It’s on the BMW N54 with the twin turbo’s and it’s the rear turbo every time having this issue
Regards
Hi Eric, thanks for the comment, please confirm which blades you are referring to? Inducer or exducer blades? The most common blade "breakage" is usually the exducer blade which relates to a few things, and is most commonly associated with HCF high cycle fatigue, which is usually induced through over speeding, or poor material quality or casting process (poor material grain structure - usually large grains and/or porosity)
@@TurboDirectSA it’s on the exducer on the turbine, I suspect the rear turbo’s outlet piping leading to the Intercooler is to small for the higher flow that is trying to pass through, thus putting more heat and strain on the turbine side, thanks so much for your insight, I’m going to open up the rear outlet to a bigger size piping going to the Intercooler, and try to increase Intercooler efficiency
@@ericvermeulen9853 Send me a picture of the break itself, high res zoomed in, and a few other pictures, ill confirm if its a thermal load related failure - which i doubt.
@@TurboDirectSA email address ? Or whatsapp?🙏🏻
@@ericvermeulen9853 info@turbodirect.co.za
I've a 3 year old car and it's been diagnosed as to much end float, splines have to much movement, does this mean it's on its way out? Please advise me what to do
What end float measurement is recorded, and how was it measured? Is there oil leakage? Heavy oil consumption? Smoke out the rear of the exhaust? Any audible sounds (whinning or screaming)? Loss of power?
@@TurboDirectSAthanks for getting back to me, the garage has told me the bearings have gone, it's a 21 plate, he doesn't know why, the turbo makes a clicking noise on idle
@@annbrown1558 send an email to info@turbodirect.co.za and the techies there will assist you
I don't understand where the carbon is coming from. Is it carbon particles? I know some vehicles use a charcoal filter for the intake. Is it shedding dust from the charcoal vibrating against itself? Are they driving in a smoky area? PCV issues? Diesel exhaust rebreathing?
Carbon forms inside any and all engines, more so with Diesel engines as a result of the combustion process. Im not sure where the carbon originates from, but the carbon is confirmed as the material found on the compressor wheel blades. We have purchased on of these vehicles as a development vehicle and will be investigating this in the coming months.
What causes the fins from the turbine shaft to look corroded? Or pitted
The surface of the blades would never become pitted (small hole indentations) from normal use. Something that can cause this is impact damage sustained on the surface of the blade, but this is not very likely, as the primary point of contact is the leading edge of the inducer blades if something should enter through the intake tract of the turbine housing. This would normally damage the blades.
The presence of carbon build up is common, which does sometimes give the appearance of pitting. If you can shoot an email to info@turbodirect.co.za ill be happy to ask Chris and the team to look at it and give you feeedback.
it was very good video i liked alot but i hv question?
i got a second hand volkswagen vento 1.6L manual diesel engine and drove it near about on 160 km/hr and suddenly the core of the turbo broke down so can uh help out that should change the core of the turbo or should change the turbo.
reply urjent please
Abhinav the answer to your question depends largely on how badly damaged the turbocharger is internally. If the end housings and/or VNT assembly is damaged inside, then its a new turbo. If the internal structure of the housings and VNT assembly (if its a VNT turbo) is in tact and not damaged, then the CHRA replacement is possible no problem.
@@TurboDirectSA only core id broken everything else is fine
@@TurboDirectSA if we chnge the core after that can drive like before we drove like on 130km/hr or on more speed
@@abyvlogz First thing first - you need to find the cause of the failure and correct that - before you repair and reinstall the turbo again, otherwise you'll feed the engine another turbo. You should be able to drive the car however you want, 10kmh - 300km/h if it will get there. If the turbo setup is functioning correctly you can drive it however you feel.
Does a finest (less microns) air filter should be used to fix this issue ?
No - this will starve the setup of air, and at the same time cause a thrust failure - ill explain this in a video in the future.
Use the OEM filter, and do regular maintenance - this failure is an odd one and not often you will see this type of failure - remember also we live in Africa - things are abused here unlike other EU and US and AUS countries.
About how much less does this happen with a cast wheel? And what do South Africans call the calipers?
A Cast wheel will not last half the life of a billet counterpart. The "caliper" is called by its name as the "Vernier" :-)
Hi Chris, would a turbocharger be damaged if mounted at 30 degrees to the horizontal line?
Tia.
Both axial and radial directions are horizontal - which are you referring to? Do you mean the angle of the bearing housing pointing forward or rearward? Or are you referring to the compressor housing facing upward or downwards?
Yes, due to puddling of oil from being unable to drain correctly.
This do not exceed goes for front to back , left to right, and bearing housing clocking.
@@daviddroescher not necessarily -- it depends on the V angle of the engine when/if used on a Vee engine, aswell as what application (rock crawler, hill climb etc)
@@TurboDirectSA the compressor facing upwards, sorry
@@cetGT3 Buddy depending on the turbo, some you MIGHT get away with it, if its mounted to a VEE engine, but most of the time you will find oil leakage past the split seal ring/s. Some of the new turbos use twin rings, and others use single - ill be making a video on the internal structure of the bearing housing on the Garrett turbochargers coming soon, so you will understand this a bit more.
Is it possible to re balance a billet compressor wheel after it got chipped by a stone? Turbo is whining the turbo is not even 6 months old
Yes ofcourse it is - this is done separately before being re-installed onto the CHRA and then rebalanced on the VSR at high speed as an assembled CHRA again.
How on EARTH did he sleuth that one out?
SVP pouvé vous la draduire en francé
so what brand air filter caused the failure??? cant say??
This video is educational on the different and sometimes complex failure mechanisms. No air filter was pin pointed as the cause of the failure - watch the video, the details are in the video as to the contributing factors and failure mechanisms relating to the erosion of the compressor wheel blades.
Hi, my hilux started to whistle loud just at 4500kms off the showroom. Is it because of a leak or turbo failure. It increases with engine rpm.
Have you done software?
@@TurboDirectSA STOCK :(
@@stevyop99 Its under warranty, have you taken it back to Toyota?
@@TurboDirectSA Yes, I had to fight with them for over an year because no code was given from the scanner. Luckily they offered a new turbo. But I'm worried without finding the cause it might happened again right ? I took this to 3 normal mechanics who said ;
1.Bearings damaged
2.Intercooler boost leak
3.Hose damage
Btw I head that high pitch noise in every updated 1gd engine Fortuners.But not hiluxes. (This is a prefacelift 2020 yom 2.8 hilux auto 4x4) Its interesting and sad at the same time.
@@stevyop99 I drive a hilux GD6 s.8 daily at the moment as the shop development vehicle - if you referring to the high pitch sound when tapping off the throttle, ignore this, this is the gas path directed by the VNT assembly as the internal guide ring moves the vanes to the open position. If its a high pitch "siren" when under load or full throttle, this is a different story altogether.
There is a very simple and effective way to test for a boost leak when the engine is off, allowing you to find the exact place of the leak if it exists. Whoever told you bearing wear, doesnt know much about turbochargers - ignore that comment. contact us info@turbodirect.co.za and we can arrange for you to bring the vehicle in and we will do a pressure test and confirm whether there is in fact a leak or not.
basically by withholding information on the manufacturer of the cause of failure of the turbo, you are protecting the manufacturer and not the public
This video is educational, the manufacturer, brand, model, part# has nothing to do with the failure mechanism which is the primary and only reason this clip was produced.
Pointing fingers is not the MO of the video - understanding a somewhat complicated failure is.
Carbon eh?
PCV recirc on some VW product?
They use a charcoal filter between the intake tract -- no danger in this case.
@@TurboDirectSA Learn something new every day!