Righting a Cinematic Wrong: The Batman Saga That Should Have Been
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- What if Tim Burton stayed on and directed not one but two trilogies for the Caped Crusader?
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As much as I enjoyed Jim Carrey as the Riddler, casting Robin Williams to play a darker version of the character would’ve been great to see. Also, having Patrick Stewart as Mr. Freeze would have been amazing too! I too have a hard time picturing Billy Dee’s Harvey going Two-Face, so recasting things to have Walken in that roll is a good call too. Love this What-If scenario!
I recently read the Batman 89 comic that acts as a sequel with Billy Dee as Two-Face. I didn't like it. Even in comic form I couldn't buy him as Two-Face. You see an image from that comic in the video, and he still has his mustache, it's just bleached white on one side, which makes it almost impossible to tell it's there. It's silly. Burned up Walken I can buy. He's better at playing darker characters.
Well, The Riddler in the Burton Batman world would be Johnny Depp. Besides, it was Joel Schumacher who wanted Robin Williams for The Riddler. Lee and Janet Scott Batchler wrote The Riddler with Robin Williams in mind. Due to a salary dispute, the role went to Jim Carrey.
@@ManicExpression1980 and Max Shreck was never Harvey Dent. Daniel Waters debunked the rumor.
Who would be poison ivy
@@iloveprettyairsignwomen5971 i would keep Uma Thurman. She's a great actress, it was just the script and direction that sucked.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about what further Burton Batman movies would look like, great stuff! It would've been really cool if in Triumphant, there's a scene where Batman is under the influence of Scarecrow's fear toxin and Nicholson's Joker makes a brief appearance (as a hallucination of course) to have a little 'dark night of the soul' type conversation, when Batman is at a low point. Joker shows up to taunt him, question if Bruce is actually doing any good, etc., the usual stuff. He was this Batman's first villain AND the guy that killed his parents, so to get a minor appearance from him before the end would've been cool.
Absoloutely. A scene with all the villains from all the movies would be great too. Maybe a trial scene in Arkham like in Batman TAS.
It's actually titled Batman Unchained. And Schumacher's choice for Scarecrow was Nicholas Cage.
@@ManicExpression1980 that was an idea from Mark Protosevich. And it was actually titled Batman Unchained.
My Casting
Who Stays
-Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne/Batman
-Jack Nicholson - Jack Napier/The Joker
-Kim Basinger - Vicki Vale
-Billy Dee Williams - Harvey Dent/Two-Face
-Michael Gough - Alfred Pennyworth
-Pat Hingle - Commissioner James Gordon
-Danny DeVito - The Penguin
-Michelle Pfeiffer - Selina Ky;e/Catwoman
-Chris O'Donnell - Dick Grayson/Robin
My casting of the other villains
-Robin Williams - Edward Nygma/The Riddler
-Johnny Depp - Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow
-Patrick Stewart - Victor Fries/Mr. Freeze
-Nicole Kidman or Geena Davis -Palema Isley/Poison Ivy
-Mike Myers - Jervis Tech/Mad Hatter
-Kevin Nash - Bane
-Madonna or Helena Bonham Carter - Harley Quinn
-Christopher Lee or Christopher Plummer - Ra's Al Ghul
-Catherine Zeta Jones - Talia Al Ghul
Other characters
-Rene Russo - Chase Meridan
-Wynonna Ryder - Barbara Gordon/Batgirl
Very good ideas for Talia Al Ghul, Poison Ivy, and Scarecrow!
Actually, it was Joel Schumacher who wanted Michael Keaton to come back as Batman, Rene Russo as Dr. Chase Meridian, and Robin Williams as The Riddler, since he already had Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face. Keaton, Russo, and Williams didn't end up appearing in Batman Forever, and Val Kilmer stepped into the role of Batman, Nicole Kidman as Chase Meridian, and Jim Carrey as The Riddler.
@@ManicExpressionvideo have you heard of the movie Species?
Love all those except the Freeze one.
I almost 200% agree with your choices that this would have made a superb series of Batman films!
...
But I'm still totally against Uma Therman as Pouson Ivy, and I think you need a new Raz AL Ghoul...Liam needs to stay in the Nolan universe, if he bled over it'd be disorienting.
Really great retelling!
It's hard to get on board with Uma as Poison Ivy, given how horrendous she was in Batman and Robin, but she's a really good actress. I think she would have made a decent Ivy with a better script and direction. As for Liam Neeson, you gotta remember that in my fantasy timeline the Nolan movies never would have happened. No need to reboot a saga if it's successful, and my Batman Triumphant likely would have come out around 2005, when Batman Begins came out.
I'm against Thurman as Poison Ivy, too. But I like Batman & Robin just the way it is (except for George Clooney as Batman, like Michael Keaton, was hard to watch as Batman). And Liam Neeson, I like him as Ras's just the way it is as well.
@@ManicExpressionvideo like I said, it was actually titled Batman Unchained.
Christopher Lee as Burton's Ra's Al Ghul would be sick
My personal casting choices for the Tim Burton saga Batman franchise (the villains I should say), so we already got Jack Nicholson as Joker (Batman 1989), and Danny DeVito as Penguin (Batman Returns)…so how about:
-Robin Williams or Johnny Depp as Riddler
-Billy Dee Williams as Two-Face
-Patrick Stewart as Mr. Freeze
-Uma Thurman as Poison Ivy
-Sylvester Stallone or Kevin Nash as Bane
-Brad Dourif, Jeff Goldblum, Nicolas Cage, or Steve Buscemi as Scarecrow
-Rowan Atkinson or Mike Myers as Mad Hatter
-Christopher Lee as Ra’s Al Ghul
Oh man, Christopher Lee and Johnny Depp are great choices!
@@ManicExpression1980 Ikr I mean think about it, JD was already becoming Burton’s main collaborator at that point, and since he has that charismatic quirkiness vibe about him, and the Riddler is quirky. Now don’t get me wrong, RW is perfect for the role as well, he has such that mischievous sense for a charismatic villain. So either way, it would work for one of those two, as I at least personally think.
And as I say how perfect CL would be for Ra’s Al Ghul, is well let’s just say that he’s played so many leaders, and tyrants in film like for example: Count Dooku (SW prequel trilogy), as well as Lord Saruman (LOTR trilogy). I even see his performance as the burgomaster in Sleepy Hollow, it just makes him perfect for the titular role.
Tim Burton never approach Robin Williams for The Riddler. It was Joel Schumacher who wanted Robin Williams for The Riddler, and he would be the same over the top/flamboyant Riddler as was in the final film played by Jim Carrey. Due to a salary dispute, the role went to Carrey.
@@ManicExpression1980 they are.
@@michaelvasques4695 according to an interview with The Batchlers on Superhero Stuff You Should Know, it was Warner Bros and Joel Schumacher who wanted Robin Williams for The Riddler, and he would be the same over the top/flamboyant Riddler as was in the final film. Due to a salary dispute, the role went to Jim Carrey.
Not bad. I'm making my own Tim Burton Batman fanfic series. The first one I wrote and uploaded in 2019 had Chip Shreck and Professor Pyg as the main villains who don't team up. I know Pyg didn't exist back them but I thought it would be cool to include him and the Dollotrons in the Burtonverse. I also Introduced Barbara Gordon and Harvey Bullock way before the 89 comic series and brought back Michelle Pfeifer's Catwoman
My second and ongoing fanfic had The Mad Hatter ( Martin Short) and Two Face ( Billy Dee) as the main villains including Hugo Strange ( Christopher Lee) in a recurring role as Jervis's psychiatrist while still obsessed with Batman sowing the seeds for Strange to be the main villain in the third fanfic/fifth movie. Also Introducing Robin in this story I'm doing
It's fun to think about what might have been :)
No matter how much some of us may have enjoyed Batman Forevor,I still would have loved for Tim Burton to finish his trilogy first and wrap up his veshion of the character....Or have Batman Forevor be darker like it was in the original cut and still have Michael Keaton ar Batman
I was 15 when Batman Forever came out, and I loved it then, but as the years went by it lost its magic. I yearned for a true continuation from Batman Returns.
Actually, Burton had one meeting with Warner Bros and they let him stay on as producer. And Burton requested his friend Schumacher to direct Batman Forever.
@@ManicExpression1980 there is. And it's the Batman 89 comic. And I'm going to get it. Back in 2020, I had the Batman DarKnight script by Lee Shapiro and Stephen Wise, and it's a continuation of Batman & Robin.
Wow, that would have been one of the best superhero sagas to date. Get this man to a warner brothers lot now!! I wish the true fans had more say in the movies. It's like the people writing the superhero movies are just in it for money and have no creative abilities.
In the old days studios thought the fans were idiots, and now they think fans are all toxic. The studios have never had any respect for us. Batman and Robin is the ultimate expression of that, since it was clearly just a commercial for toys with a bunch of big actors shoved into it, none of whom were right for their parts. But whatever! Fans are stupid, they'll eat it up!
Actually, Burton is done with Batman after Batman Forever (directed by Burton's friend Schumacher).
@@ManicExpressionvideo say what you like, but I like Batman & Robin. It is about reckon with loss.
For Returns: Joker's death has shaken up organized crime in Gotham. Penguin has carved himself a niche in the chaos--have him as more akin to Arkhamverse than Burton.
If Keaton were ever to drop out in your franchise, then Adrian Pasdar should get the cowl.
@@nicholastosoni707 he only pass it to Kilmer. Not Pasdar.
Man your DVD collection adds a bunch to your authority on the matter.
1700+ and counting!
I think a potential option for Dick Grayson/Robin in the Burton universe could have been Mike Vitar. He played Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in The Sandlot.
I could see that.
@@ManicExpressionvideo You watching Channel Awesome’s Fanscription that’s been doing these What ifs?
@@ackbarfan5556 i have and I think Mike Vitar would’ve been a great Dick Grayson/Robin. Plus, I hope Fanscription makes part 3 of Tim Burton’s Batman and Robin.
No. The Burtonverse Robin would be Kiefer Sutherland, because Tim saw his performance in Stand By Me.
@@ManicExpressionvideo well, I'm not.
I enjoyed your elevator pitch universe so much I subscribed. Soon as you said Christopher Walken- Harvey Dent and Robin Williams - Edward Nigma
Glad you enjoyed it. There's another one coming next week!
It was Joel Schumacher who wanted Robin Williams to play The Riddler, according to The Batchlers.
@@ManicExpressionvideo you wish.
It Sucks That the Tim Burton Movies did not Continue but The Flash is Coming out and The Flash will Run to the Michael Keaton Batman Universe Earth 89 maybe Hopefully we will get a Little bit on what Keatons Batman has Been Up to Since 92 Batman Returns.
Assuming The Flash comes out and isn't canceled like Batgirl.
I like this version better than what we ended up getting, especially the cast. However, I prefer Harley Quinn to be one of the antagonists for Batman Unchained over The Mad Hatter.
Lol, I just looked up what Christopher Walken was doing in 88’ and 89’, and he should’ve definitely been in Batman. He was being wasted in things like Puss in Boots (1988) and Communion (1989). Just being wasted in these forgettable productions. Batman 89 was still early Burton, the studio had more control, so I can see how he wouldn’t have a lot of control over casting.
Walken was definitly in a slump at the time that Batman could have shaken him out of.
If Burton cast Walken in the Batman role back then, then WB would fired him and gave it to Ridley Scott.
@@ManicExpression1980 liked him in The Dead Zone and Excess Baggage. Besides, Warner Bros would've Patrick Swayze as Batman in the first one, but no, because they made a mistake of having Michael Keaton in the role.
Ray Liotta would have made a great Harvey Dent/Two-Face than Tommy Lee Jones
I think scarecrow under Tim burton would be awesome to see,he would've made him a scary character,like imagine the effects of the fear gas under burton's direction. ,I think either julian richings or Jeff goldblum would be a great scarecrow and also mike myers as mad hatter would be hilarious but fun.also patrick stewart would be an awesome mr freeze.
Agreed, Tim Burton would have killed it with Scarecrow. It's a damn shame we never got that.
I would picture both Johnny Depp and Nicolas Cage as The Scarecrow, because both Tim and Joel had worked with theme before.
@@ManicExpressionvideo because Tim Burton pass on the torch to his friend Joel Schumacher to continue with the franchise, according to Ben Wan (The man who knows too much about Batman).
Arnold Schwarzenegger as bane would have been amazing
It makes more sense than Mr. Freeze. ...Why isn't he called Dr. Freeze? 🤔
He would create one liners as Bane.
@@BrandonNielsen87 He's got accent and the psychically of bane and his one liners would be just as iconic as Tom Hardy's bane.
I actually think the late Pee Wee Herman would've been great as Mad Hatter.
Peter Weller as Mr Freeze and Robert England as Scarecrow.
I agree with you 100%, I think they should have kept Burton for all of them
If nothing else the tone would have stayed consistent.
They can't, because Tim Burton handed the franchise to his friend Joel Schumacher and Christopher Nolan.
@@ManicExpression1980 because nobody will never listen to the internet and listen to Superhero Stuff You Should Know.
I just realized Jeff Goldblum would have made an Amazing Norman Osborne/Green goblin 🤪
Yeah, I can see that.
If they let him.
@@ManicExpression1980 definitely.
I also always thought that the Circus Gang should have been Joker goons and Joker idolizers, similar to the Jokerz from Batman Beyond. They could have continued on as goons for Two-Face and others, explaining where these goons came from.
YES! I remember, when I was a kid, being completely confused as to why clowns were still a problem in Gotham yet there was no mention of the Joker.
Wasn't that cannon? I remember hearing it somewhere.
I like it. But also, Joker doesn't die. Have him be in Arkham and Crane's collegue, Harleen Qunizel, be corrupted by him and be a bigger bad than Mad Hatter. I don't think Hatter would have worked as the main bad guy in an installment. Keep Myers in there, but 2nd fiddle to a resurgent Joker.
Also, have Crane be a product of Joker's influence. Maybe even have his serum turn out to be a derivitive of Smile-X.
If we were making the series today I would 100% agree with you, but back in the 80s they didn't plan that far ahead and they always killed the bad guy at the end, so I can't imagine Batman 89 not ending with Joker's death. However, I like the idea of the Smile-X gas being used in Crane's fear toxin.
Also, new idea for Mad Hatter - Tim Curry.
@@ManicExpressionvideo well I think of Steve Buscemi or Martin Short as the Mad Hatter and while Andy Serkis for the Nolanverse hatter
Your ideas are better than what was made (until Batman Begins)
What the Batman 89 franchise needed was me in it.
As who? I'm curious 😁
As Robin?
@@ManicExpression1980 I always had my eye on commissioner Gordon. Sure I was four at the time but I think I could’ve pulled it off.
you got some very solid ideas
hmm maybe i could use you for a project i been working on that is if you want to
I would love to hear more.
@@ManicExpressionvideo well basically im crafting an idea to where what if The 89 Batman film was the true start to a DC Cinematic Universe
Interested in another Righting Cinematic Wrongs experiment? Check out my video on The Expendables trilogy we should have gotten! czcams.com/video/TggBbJjW2tI/video.html
Would have be very interesting
The only good thing to come out of Batman and Robin is the memes and the reaction videos. It's like Phantom Menace - I wish it had been a better movie, but if it had been we never would have gotten the Red Letter Media review.
Uma Thurman's taller than Michael Keaton
She is?
@@evanzaremba4722 Keaton's 5ft10 uma Thurman's 5ft11
I don't think Jeff Goldblum would make a good psychiatrist. Maybe it's just Jurassic Park talking, but he seems far too soft-spoken and (whatever word is just short of "winey", if that makes any sense.) to fit the role.
He's famous, I would think, for his "life finds a way" line, but the rest of his speech sounds almost like "Mommy, why aren't they listening to me?" Except for his time in JP1 after he gets injured. But before that and afterward in the sequels, his way of talking makes him the weakest character, I think.
If you're going for Jurassic Park characters, I'd go with Richard Attenborough (John Hammond). He has a much more Grandfatherly/friendly uncle persona and would be much more believable in the role.
I could see Attenborough as a killer Hugo Strange, but I still like Goldblum for Crane. Think less of his character from Jurassic Park and more from The Fly.
Actually, Schumacher's choice for The Scarecrow was Nicolas Cage, who starred in his film 8mm.
@@ManicExpression1980 like I said, Schumacher's choice for The Scarecrow was Nicolas Cage.
Goldblum would also have been a good Riddler, keep in mind, Williams, while a perfect choice held a grudge against WB for using him as bait to play the Joker to lure Nicholson into the role in 1989. Johnny Depp would have been good as either Riddler or Scarecrow
eh no Picard as Mr freeze why not have Michael Ansara the voice of freeze in the animated series to play freeze in live action, he still could've easily pulled it off at his age in the mid to late 90s!
That would be an awesome saga but the only person i would change is christopher walken harvey dent to someone like john hamm
Jon Hamm wasn't really a name back then, but Johnny Depp would be my second choice.
You sir... Are a genius!
I'm glad we agree 😁
Well I always felt that Batman and Penguin should have been like Eliot Ness and Al Capone from the Untouchables and Scrooge McDuck and Flimheart Glumgold from Ducktales, I think that Killer Croc should have been in Batman Returns as he was a circus freak and lives in the sewers, Robin Williams would have been perfect for Riddler as his performance in one hour photo and Patrick Stewart as Mr Freeze too, I never thought of Mike Myers as the Mad Hatter.
Well I did heard about the sequel trilogy to the Sam Raimi Spider-Man and imagine if Tim Burton made a Spider-Man
Um sequel trilogy to Sam Raimi's Spider-Man? Could you kindly explain?
I agree with your choices
Awesome, glad you enjoyed the video.
I can see Robin doing it, this was a role he was supposed to get but he was screwed over.
What I've heard is that he was offered the role of the Joker under false pretenses, just to get Jack Nicholson to sign up. Then they offered him Riddler but screwed him over when Jim Carrey suddenly blew up. He then refused to work with Warner Bros. again for many years.
I didn’t like the Christopher walked as Harvey dent overall really well done
Who would you cast?
@@ManicExpressionvideo
I would just keep billy dee williams
I liked everything but the inclusion of Ra's A Ghul. Dr. Crane could easily be the mastermind without shoehorning in Ra's.
I agree, and actually it might have made for good symmetry: Only one villain (Joker) in the first movie and one in the last. I just like Ra's and I enjoyed Liam Neeson's portrayal of him.
@@ManicExpression1980 Neeson was a great Ra's.
One of the positive about Batman forever is Batman never took a punch from a villain on batman forever he took 1 kick and 1 bullet cut by two face 1997 Batman Batman never really took a punch or a kick from any villain unless it was Mr freeze
Right. In the first Batman, he punched Joker twice.
@@evanzaremba4722 I'm alright with Jack Nicolson as joker
@@iloveprettyairsignwomen5971 me too.
Jim Carrey as the riddler, two face and Batman and Robin is too much bad
Nope. It's good, because it was my all-time favorite. Because Batman Forever had a better tone than Batman Returns. Things I like about Batman Forever is Val Kilmer as Batman, Jim Carrey and Tommy Lee Jones following the footsteps of Jack Nicholson, Tim Burton passing on the torch to his friend Joel Schumacher, the visuals, everything.
Good mate, I like.
Glad you like it
@@ManicExpressionvideo I did man, so many good movies there. A lot of fans etc know what people would like to see. Good video.
You didn’t mention if you would keep Alicia Silverstone as Batgirl/ Barbara Gordon or if you would’ve recast the role.
It's a tough call, because I don't know who else could have played her. I don't really remember all that many young actresses from around that time. Alicia Silverstone is a fine actress, I think she would have been a good Batgirl with a better script to work with.
@@ManicExpressionvideo I would suggest Winonna Ryder for the role
Given the popularity of Deep Fake technology, I can see a video genius putting out these movies in a "fan version" opus. I'd buy them (if it was legal).
Have you seen the fanscription video *What if Tim Burton Directed Batman Forever?* It has robin williams as riddler
i would have loved this saga, i think you could have squeezed Harley Quinn into it, though and maybe the joker but thats just me. Still this is a good take
Well, Joker was in 89 Batman, and like I said I wouldn't have really changed much in that one. Harley Quinn was supposed to be in Joel Schumacher's Batman 5. I think they were talking to Madonna and Courtney Love about playing her.
@@ManicExpression1980 oh yeah? Well i meant joker could come back for revenge because it would be a comic book movie
1000th sub
You're awesome!
I will forever die on this hill, but Batman and Robin didn't destroy the superhero genre. Considering that Blade came out the next year, and that ushered in a new wave of comic book movies where people realized that superheroes can be taken seriously (which led to X-Men and Spider-Man getting greenlit), B&R didn't do anything. More accurately, B&R *temporarily* destroyed the Batman franchise, yes, but thanks to B&R being terrible, it stopped any shit sequels getting made AND we got Batman Begins and the Nolan trilogy. So, ironically, B&R did more right than wrong because it showed what not to do.
You have a point, although I've never considered Blade to be the official kick off of the Marvel age of superhero blockbusters. It's a great movie, don't get me wrong, but most people didn't even know Blade was a comic book character when they saw the movie. For me it's X-Men that was the beginning of that trend, and then especially Spider-Man where we started getting the deluge of comic book movies.
I like the cast for Robin. Blade should’ve been the face of Marvel, imo. I became a huge fan after Blade came out.
Batman 4 Christian Bela! ...sim
Já batman 3 !!! Michael Keaton com mulher gato está DC comics em face two
Batman and Robin is awful, but it wasn't even the worst DC movie of 1997 that was Steel.
& Honestly it didn't destroy Superhero Movies given Blade came out in 1998 and X-Men in 2000.
I can honestly say I've never seen Steel and have never been tempted to, so you're probably right there.
Batman Forever didn't start out as a Tim Burton project. It was always Joel Schumacher's baby. And Max Shreck was never Harvey Dent.
I believe I heard that there was either a draft of the script or just maybe an early outline where Max Shreck was Harvey Dent, and Tim Burton did have some talks with Warner Bros. about him directing Batman 3, but Warner Bros. felt burned by the reception to Batman Returns and decided to go in a different direction.
@@ManicExpressionvideo well, Daniel Waters debunked the rumor about Max Shreck being Harvey Dent. And Superhero Stuff You Should Know debunked a Burton Batman 3 rumor. That's why I listen to an interview with Lee and Janet Scott Batchler that Tim Burton's only involvement with Batman Forever is to hire his friend Joel Schumacher as director, and helping out hiring The Batchlers to write the script. You better check out that interview.
What the movies did wrong, The Animated Series did right
100% correct. The only character I felt TAS did dirty was Riddler. Bruce Timm and the other people behind the scenes didn't like the character and didn't know what to do with him. That always bummed me out, as Riddler is probably my favorite Batman villain.
@@ManicExpressionvideo And how about Bane? That character only appeared in a single episode and then never came back (at least, in that first DCAU saga).
Ok marvel takin a year u up
U need to derrickt dc movies
I couldn't do a worse job if I tried.
Michael Keaton was terrible as Bruce Wayne. Should have cast somebody else.
It's hard for me to watch Michael Keaton as Batman/Bruce Wayne, and the same with George Clooney, but they're great actors, but not as Batman, but my favorite Batman is Val Kilmer.