How to fix the thin piano sounds in the Yamaha MODX and Montage
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- čas přidán 4. 01. 2020
- People love the sounds in the amazing Yamaha MODX and Montage keyboards - except for the pianos, which are almost universally hated as sounding thin, and tend to get buried in the mix.
But...there is a simple reason why, and an even simpler way to fix it. In this video, I show the one-minute fix that changes your MODX/Montage piano from thin and lifeless to brash and in your face! - Hudba
Note that in many cases you are better off increasing the 'Velocity Depth' instead of (or more so then) the 'Velocity Offset', because it will maintain some dynamics and allow you to play softer notes, yet still be able to cut through on medium to harder notes. With increasing the 'Velocity Offset', it will cut through, but if you try to play something softer/dynamic/with feel, it just sounds like you are hitting the keys really hard no matter how softly you touch them. For example, if there is a signature piano part that needs to stand out during the intro & chorus of a song, but then you want to blend the piano in a bit more during the verses by playing a bit softer, it may cut through too much during the verses if you increase the 'Velocity Offset'. There are definitely certain scenarios though, where 'Velocity Offset' does have some usefulness, maybe even for live pianos in certain songs...just be aware of when to use it vs using 'Velocity Depth'. In some cases using both in varying degrees might be best, depending on the song and your playing style. It's great that both types of velocity adjustments are available, as you can then figure out what the best fit is & adjust it for a particular song.
Good observation I was thinking about that.
How do you get to it, my manual is in Spanish can't read it
@@blakeh6250 touch the voice in the performance then hit EDIT in the sidebar
Well so I though too. But then one day I played a piano sound “CFX Concert” were tones from it keeped dropping out. So no sound all the time with the sound “CFX Concert”.
And the volume of the pianos really are low too.
Try it yourself.
You’ll be surpriced that the man in the video and I are right.
I have a Yamaha Montage myself.
So I know what I’m talking about.
@@blakeh6250 !!!Those drop outs really ought not to be necessary!!! 👇😖👎
I've had the MODX8 for almost three years and you just taught me how to make the piano sound like I've been wanting it to sound. Thank you!
I watched this video a year ago and really helped on my Montage-centered gigs. I had the synth for some time already, but had not done any editing to its sounds. And, yes, pianos were weak. This changed my playing life and also opened my mind about editing sounds, which now I do quite a lot. So, BIG THANKS!!!
As a late comer musician (began at 50, now I am 55), this kind of information from the pros is INVALUABLE to get me fastly on track. I am playing with a pop/rock band for a year and it has been possible thanks to videos like this one. Thanks Scott 🙏
I agree. CZcams sent me this video. I'm so glad the algorithm worked for me this time. This video really helped me overcome my fear of editing sounds.
Great tip! Another option that works fine for my playing style is to simply go into "Utility" and change the global "Velocity Curve" to "Soft". Make sure to test with a piano sound while you change between the different curves to find the one that suits your playing style the best. Done in a few seconds and worth checking before editing each patch. :)
I used this for years and found it super helpful, but I will note: I eventually started using some software (VST) piano plugins that had sounded amazing in the audio demos, but when I started playing them myself I found they sounded fairly flat. I realized I'd been used to that playing-with-the-full-band super-fast-velocity-curve style, and was pretty much only playing hard, without taking advantages with the variations in tone color that taking a more delicate approach to velocity would give me. When I brought this knowledge back to my keyboards, I realized that I was limiting my playing by doing this. If you're not able to put compression at the end of the signal chain, this may sometimes be the only way to stand out in a mix with a live band, but while I found it super helpful for years, it's worth revisiting down the line, to see if you can get more tone colors out of your piano sound.
Great one
@@FGCLovesYoubro my vst is clipping when I use certain sounds IPad MKSENSATION extreme from gospel musicians...can you help me out ...any ideas ???
I combine 2 pianos together to add depth
Rock Grand and Aggressive Grand for example
I also will drop the pitch an octave on one to get the lower full sound
It’s effective for cutting thru a mix in a live band situation
It’s all in the experimenting and combining different patches then tweaking them for your preference
Now we know! I've had my MODX7 for over a year now. 30 to 40 gigs and LOVE it ... BUT ... those pesky pianos just didn't sound as good as the very impressive piano demos. I'm definitely not a techie/programmer-type so this is very helpful. Thank you! I'll give it a try.
They're not weak, they're flat. They're perfect in a band and a studio mix.
The problem is the feeling of lack of body when we are playing.
You hit the nail on the head there! When I first bought my Montage, It was depressing the heck out of me with my own lame performance in comparison to the LOUD and crisp Audit Demo songs.
However, there are other velocity settings in the entire box, that one parameter you found there, will help - but there's so many places you can affect by the velocity settings.
Thanks - between this and Tony Winston's video on smoothing out the response curve, you've added a lot of value to this product.
This makes my day. I had a MOX8 a few years ago and after it fell apart (lol) I got a Roland FA08 and couldn’t believe how the piano stood out. For example I do “Movin’ Out” by Billy Joel and before the chorus there is a line on piano that starts on A below middle C up past the octave and resolves on Bb above middle C. It stood out from the rest of the band beautifully on the FA08 and not the MOX8. I replaced the FA08 because I didn’t like the way it was setup or the other sounds, but now with the MODX I’m back in the old boat with pianos that just don’t stick out.
So I appreciate this advice! I’m sick of buyer’s regret
MODX Acoustic Piano DA is amazing, much better than the other Pianos. Now I know why and how to fix it. Thank You. EXCELLENT VIDEO !!
Thanks for confirming what I did the other evening ( more by guesswork)to improve the sound of some of the pianos that stopped me having to bash the keys😊
That System 8 looks very jealous. "Look at me and all the lights I have!"
more like bored =p
So distracting. I wouldn’t want a keyboard which started doing that.
System 8 is an awsome synth!
@@stephaneenglish4661 You can disable that
A big BRAVO for your video. I was blown by auditioning and then scratching my head playing it myself.
Incredible! I just got a MODX , Love All sounds, but pianos...
And your video came as a bless!
Thank you very much 👏👏
You save my song😊 ! I spent too much time strugling to find the right piano sound for my song.Thank you👏👍
Thanks. I've just purchased a MODX 8. The one thing I was expecting from Yamaha, with its deep piano traditions behind it, was strong piano. I agree, they seemed a little weak. The Bosondorfer download is a little better, but now I've watched this I will be right on to it. Great video
THIS IS BRILLIANT. Thank you so much, as you solve the EXACT problem that I was experiencing.
I just picked up my MODX Jan 31 and was puzzled until I saw your video. TY, TY, TY.
Very interesting observation. One of the first things that I noticed when I bought my montage was what I felt was a very low output level on many of the patches.
Thank you
Good work! I had the same problem, I traded in my MOFX6 on a MODX7 and found I had to hit the keys harder for both my new patches and the ones from the MOXF. The MODX7 seems to be set up for players who prefer a heavier action. I just changed the global setting for key response to Light instead of Medium and that worked for me. When using layered sounds, I vary the depth and offset of different layers to make some sounds pop out while others lay back depending on velocity. Nice vid.
I think a better fix would be to lower the Velocity Step between the softer Part 1 and the bolder Part 2. You then retain the ability to play softer notes while engaging the bolder notes with less key velocity.
Big thanks for this tip! I'm still navigating my way through the ModX and every little bit helps!
Hey Scott!! It's me again...Just bought the Modx 7+ 4 days ago...and Voila!! It's a beast alright. Tried out the piano sounds; agree that they sound weak compared to the other instruments. What I did though was to layer it with another piano, eg Bosendorfer Imperial & adjusted the intensity to enhance the 'body'. But after adjusting the velocity offset, the overall piano sounded much much better. Thanks for the tip man!!
Hi: I bought one too but I’m having trouble getting a 2.5 firmware version any idea how to do it ?
@pluviosealphe2427 Hi FunGuy. Not sure if you bought the Modx or Modx+ model. If Modx+, the firmware should already be updated in the hardware. Version 2.5 is intended for the older ModX series...
Hey bro how in the world do I turn off the sustain on the bass patches like electric bass or finger bass . The sustain is killing me.. I play bass and keys at the same time, split
The reason Montage is better sounding then the MODX is not the velocity but different parametres set in oscillators for the same samples.I figured this out when i was having MOX8 which was sounding weak in comparison with Motif XS.So i compared the values of the oscillators in programs and guess what?They were different.So,if you want to have same sound ,is actually easy, but time consuming process.You have to take XS and just edit the values of oscillators on MOX so they are the same as the ones on MotifXS.Same goes for MotifXF and MOXF.The same for Montage and MODX.Yamaha deliberately made cheaper synths sound weaker,but they didn't do it with cheaper electronics, but with software differences.When you figure this out, you can easily take the cheaper Yamaha synth for live gigs and it will sound the same as their flag ship model.The only really bad thing in cheaper models of yamaha is their keyboard.It's awfull.But still they are so much lighter, that if you earn the money by playing gigs, it's still no brainer.:)
they have different dacs also.
llollapovrzan the issue here is not between synths, its between the Audition sounds and playing the same sounds from the keyboard.
What if you do not have a montage or motif to compare to? I would take the time, but have no reference. Do you know of a place to track down that information?
@@matthewallen1715 I was surprised also.First when i bought modx was because i wanted lighter keyboard.In store i was playing motif xs8 and modx8 and i heard the difference.I asked why is the difference in sound because it was declared that they use the same sample base for keyboards,They said Ah,but you know the DA converters are not hte same.It's not truth.They use the same shit DA converters of 5 dollars a piece in both keyboards.So i went to my friend who had XS keyboard and i checked the programs.The programs and parameters there were different.So i set the parameters of my modx on xs parameters and they were sounding identical.So much of honest marketing.But they made mistake.Every owner of cheaper version of yamaha keyboards can have instrument sounding the same.Just set parametres the same.Copy it from a friend.There is no info about it on the net,because it is not something yamaha would endorse.
@@davebassP5 I was surprised also.First when i bought modx was because i wanted lighter keyboard.In store i was playing motif xs8 and modx8 and i heard the difference.I asked why is the difference in sound because it was declared that they use the same sample base for keyboards,They said Ah,but you know the DA converters are not hte same.It's not truth.They use the same shit DA converters of 5 dollars a piece in both keyboards.So i went to my friend who had XS keyboard and i checked the programs.The programs and parameters there were different.So i set the parameters of my modx on xs parameters and they were sounding identical.So much of honest marketing.But they made mistake.Every owner of cheaper version of yamaha keyboards can have instrument sounding the same.Just set parametres the same.Copy it from a friend.There is no info about it on the net,because it is not something yamaha would endorse.
Thank you so much! I just bought a used MODX. I was immediately struck by the thin piano sound. I thought it was just me.
Finally I found the video and someone who know what I’m going through with my piano
thank you so much you have no idea how helpful this is. i actually felt like I was gas lighting myself for the longest time just thinking that this is what a piano is supposed to sound like.
Good video thank you for sharing. People have to realize that you need to make some adjustments to ANY brand of quality keyboard you buy. I own several Yamaha keys, Nord Electro, Korg and Roland. I always take time the first week or two that I own them to make these types of tweaks and save my favorites. I have a Montage and the factory priest for velocity is a 1 to 1 ratio. You really need to tweak this and you can do it globally (check owners manual). You can set it exactly to your style of play.
Merci beaucoup pour cette vidéo. J'avais ce problème dans mon Modx et c'est réglé grâce à vous!
My preferred approach to handle this on my MODX8 is to go into the utility menu and set the velocity curve to "Soft." This applies the correct velocity for my playing style across all performances.Wide will have a similar behavior except it de-emphasizes the velocity on the lower notes.
Only pianos are weak, doing this change affect all other sounds
Yeah, that does the trick. I needed "wide" on MX88, though.
Wow! Thanks so much Scott. Just got the modx8 and had same issue…and u solved it!!! Tks
WOW...thanks so much. I will be using this method on this and some other Montage patches. Great info!
That was actually very helpful! While there are many nice piano performances, most are thin like you described. I was really disappointed with the Grand Concert piano as it was not very "grand". I'll take a look and see if I can improve the one's I use with your idea. Thanks for posting it!
Very Nice and thank you for sharing how to improve the piano sounds
Good video! Love that library also...😉
nice demonstration man. Thank you
worked out for me. thank you very much for this advice. i didnt know how to figure it out.
Thanks for the tip. Your solution works on my Korg Kross as well! Much nicer now...👍
Great Vid Steve Thanks I recently bought a Modx6
thank u so much for sharing this knowledge. for new user it is so use full.
Thanks, was wondering why my piano wasn't cutting through live..great job..
Great tip. Keep in mind also that playing style has a lot to do with it. As musicians it's exciting to watch demo videos for all the different plug-in's you can get these days.. and while the sounds are cool when you download them, somehow they don't sound quite as rich or expressive as the demo video guy's playing makes them sound. It's when you start dissecting HOW the guy is playing that you discover things like, ok.. he's using a jazz chord right there.. Or things like purposely not resolving chords in a short phrase to build up musical tension. We hear all of that in plug-in demo videos and never really process the fact that, our playing is probably QUITE different than those guys. They aren't using too many basic triads. So always remember that it isn't always the board. A champion motocross racer can probably outride any teenager on an old beat-up dirtbike, even if the kid was riding the pro's bike. =)
Good point, I noticed his playing and thought what about the sensitivity? dynamics? I just bought the MODX 6 for my studio. I'm a drummer learning keyboard world. I almost bought the NORD Stage 3 until I heard this on line, went to Guitar Center and was impressed with the sounds for half the price of the NORD with the MODX having the big touch screen was a big plus. I'm still learning how to, layer, split and tweak keyboard. Thanks for your comment regarding the "player" no disrespect for this guy but good point.
interesting!!
I would've said the same lol.
It's like a silly final story from a long past dj's lost hope.
Thanks for that info it was so important to me!
Excellent video bro ...thanks much !!!
A thousand likes for this video! Thank you!
Great! Needed this!
You could change the velocity curve under utility from normal to wide to achieve similar results.
Or, if you're lazy as me, go to utility and select a light velocity curve for the whole keyboard. I have my Modx for less than a day, and the first thing I noticed was that the pianos wasn't loud enough on my 80ohms beyerdynamic 770. Thank you for the video.
Very nice. I just tried with the imperial bosendorfer. Will have to try with some quiet pieces to see if it is not too bright.
Thanks for the video... very useful and helpful :)
That’s really helpful! Thank you!
After days on this problem I have found another solution : Put a Compressor and Control the Compressor Send level with an assignable Knob (or the modulation Knob). With this customized preset You can adjust the low velocity level to your convenience when playing.
Nice video, super informative! Was wondering why some of the sounds were weak...
so helpful thank you
Can't speak to live use, but for studio recordings the pianos are absolutely fine. I don't think they sound too thin at all. I use a MODX8 (also a XF6) and I have set my vel. curve to soft, but other than that no EQing or effects tweaking is needed. I play the Bösendorfer, CFX concert and the old XS Full Concert Grand.
thank you.. im like dude these pianos are killin!!!
For myself, I experimented and found moving the offset from 64 to between 70 and 74 was perfect for my playing style.
I added this new "brighter" performance to my favourites. Now when I go back and compare, the pianos DO seem a bit muted to me, or slightly "understated", unless I really push them.
I am much happier at "72".
Thx for the tip.
Thanks! What a difference. I slowed down the Leslie speed on some organ sounds. Big improvement!
E
That's exactly what I'm trying to do, and my MODX7 doesn't seem to respond to the rotary speed parameters. How did you accomplish this (what parameters did you change, and to what settings). The manuals are very unclear. Thank you!
Hi Charles, I think the rotary was too fast. When editing, I went to Effect/Ins A/and set the horns fast to 5.38 Hz. I like that speed. I have a screen shot of it but can't get it in this reply. Post your email address and I can send you the screen shot.
I changed the part name, too.
@@mitchellgolomb1594Hey hope u still available 😅 would like that screenshot if possible
I have a MODX8 arriving tomorrow. When you first played the piano my heart sank because my MOXF8 has great pianos, and that sounded terrible.
Glad it's fixable.
A lot of the sounds are quieter on the MODX/Montage, as they are designed to be layered. If you have all the sounds putting out maximum levels and velocities by default, you'll get a distorted mess when you start layering. But when you have something like pianos where you aren't layering in that way, it makes sense to offset the velocity (and gain, if desired) to make the sound punch through.
Don't despair, the pianos sound FANTASTIC on this synth!
@@ScottsSynthStuff Nice thing is, I'll keep my MOXF8 until I'm comfortable with the MOD. So I'll be able to A/B them. The MOXF default concert grand is my go-to patch for church gigs.
Thank you very much. That was crystal clear....wondering if you can make a video on how to create a whole song using the MODX's sequencer on the new updated 2.0 software version...many thanks
Hey awesome video! Been really thinking about getting this. Thanks for the vid, this'll help me out a bit in the deciding game.
Parents just ordered the synth I will update when it gets here.
MODX Just arrived and Wow man it sounds amazing. This really helped me thanks Scott you're the man!
Thanks Scott
Thank you for the lesson!! ;)
I fixed it, bought a nord electro. The two keyboards together is awesome :D
I've had a nord electro 3 for years and it is still my go to keyboard live. The modx is for synths and brass etc.
@@wavester46 absolutely! You cannot layer 8 sounds on the nord keyboards.
Amazing.
Thank you!
Uh, never figured that this was a problem at all. Perhaps because mine came with a Bösendorfer Imperial sample pack, which is awesome sounding.
I have both MODX and just got a system 8 I found some good preset pianos but very tutorial
The demo sounds in your face cause the keys are being smashed as hard as possible. Though now what you've done is make it sound like you're smashing the keys no matter how you play. Dynamics are now lost. No more expression other than expressing hard hit keys. Unless that's what you want of course. Why not just layer the piano's? Keep 1 dry and the other with reverb where you can adjust the amount you want or even introduce a different piano as another layer. You'll be surprised at what you can achieve doing this. The piano sounds on the modx/montage don't need fixing as they are engineered/programmed for expression amongst other reasons. Depending on the environment (studio or live) if one feels it's not cutting through the mix, just layer the sounds and even add a little subtle mid range if you like. Though I still give your vid a thumbs up cause of your enthusiasm! Keep it up!
You're right, and on a weighted keyboard (particularly the Montage 8's weighted keyboard) it works very well. On synth action keybeds, and in particular the non-weighted MODX keybed, you really have to smash the keys hard in order to trigger the higher velocity samples. That's why adjusting the velocity offset helps.
Layering the sounds or adding reverb will not have the same effect, as you're still just triggering more layers of the same lower-velocity samples. To get the brighter, higher velocity samples, you either have to mash the keys harder, or adjust the velocity offset.
Thank you very much. It has been very usefull for me. Excuse for my bad english. Kind regards
Hi Scott, I love the video and I will try your suggestions. You have more velocity but the sound isn’t that warm. Do you know what button or knob can make the pianos more warm and rounded?
❤❤awesome!!!! Thank you!!!
Very useful man
Gave you a sub just for the great info!!!
Thanks man.
Thanks, appreciate it!
Thanks for sharing
I have to say I like the Motif engine better. Good video
Very usefull video
Thank you! I haven't played live with this synth yet, but I know this tip and the comments others left is going to help me a lot because I play in a group.
Thanks
I actually used to do something similar in my Nord Stage 1!
Thank you
Stay blessed 🙌
Great trick. How would anyone even know how to do this. Thanks for the info.
Adjust the EQ as well - great video BTW ...
Any recommendation regarding to EQ settings? Thanks!
They are perfectly EQ to cut through in the mix in a loud church that's why it's such a popular sound . I take other boards and EQ them so the pianos sit in the mix correctly. A very popular gospel trick is to remove reverb and have zero decay. It sounds weird by itself but that fast playing in the mix there's nothing to compare it sounds amazing with the right style
Thanks for the tip. When playing in a band, the piano sound doesn't cut through the guitar and bass. Hopefully now it will.
Great sir
Nice one. Thanks :)
From my experience the piano patches work fine if you have the 88 weighted key version of MODX. The problem is that piano voice naturally has a very high dynamics range, and the semi weighted keys just cannot handle that much dynamics. By adjusting the midi velocity you can certainly make it easier to hit high velocity on these semi weighted keys, but at the same time you are also making it harder to control the dynamics precisely. Unfortunately this is an inherent problem for any semi weighted keys playing the piano voice, not just for the MODX.
I have a MODX 88 but the piano sounds not as expected!
Definitely it’s very different than preview sounds. But it not only piano sounds! Also guitars and other acoustic instruments!
With MODX8, I can't play the same notes in a row fast without loosing volume of the second note and the next. I think it has something to do with sluggishness of the keybed, not the technique. I've tried to increase the velocity offset to 75-85 but it looses some dynamics.
Can you make a demo on this Modx ? (with the sounds you edited)
I never have liked thin and wishy washy...thank you sir!
Btw, the velocity curve issue isn't unique to the MODX. My old Kawai MP6 had a standard velocity setting which didn't allowed me to hit the highest velocities values (even with maximum force), my new Roland RD 2000 is even worse. I would really like to know why these manufacturers set the velocity curves up by default like that - doesn't make any sense, except to prevent people from purchasing their keyboards.
i adjust in modx8 for the piano, the sound over bright and no dynamic layer
Omg you are the best ! I've always struggled with the piano sounds not cutting through the mix.
hi, great video! some preset MODX sounds have echo, but it doesn't have to do with reverb, VarSend or RevSend sometimes (like with Hypnotic AF1&2), I tried. Do you know how to get rid of the echo in those cases and get a clean sound?
You can go into each part of the performance, edit the part, click on Effect, and make sure both insert A and B are turned off.
There is also the master reverb and variation. Click on the name in the performance, then click Edit, then Effect. You'll see the variation and reverb settings that affect ALL parts, and in Hypnotic AF1&2 you'll find a tempo cross delay in there that is causing the echo you hear.
I think this issue honestly boils down to the astonishingly flimsy keybed on the smaller MODX's. I have to wonder if this comes up as much on the Montage/MODX 8
I suspect the light touch on the MODX6/MODX7 keybed does it, and that for the piano sounds, the velocities are tuned more for the weighted keybeds of the MODX8/Montage 8.
Wow big difference in sound with those velocity tweaks. How is the key bed action for playing piano on this? I don't have the room for the 88 note action model and already have a Kawai ES8 dp. I am even considering the smaller 61 key MODX6 model due to it's compact size, with the octave buttons onboard I could probably still manage piano playing on the 61 key version.
If you're used to a weighted piano-style keybed, the synth action will take some getting used to, particularly in adjusting your playing to get the various dynamics you want.
Hi there I am new to keyboards. Trying to set my modx 8 to my laptop. What the best cable to use. Also I am using Nanohost to run a pluggin for the vst vox continental used by The Doors and can not get the sound of the vox continental coming out threw my keyboard. Can you help please. Ty.