Savea or PSDT? Do you HAVE to win a RWC to be a great? | The Rugby Pod
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- čas přidán 30. 05. 2024
- Jim is in Japan and he's been interviewing some Rugby Superstars from the Springboks and the All Blacks 👉 Go to drinkag1.com/therugbypod to get started on your first purchase and receive a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3+K2 and 5 travel packs.
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We chat with Dan Biggar to find out all the behind the scenes intel from Jim's interviews with Pieter Steph Du Toit, Ardie Savea & Damian De Allende and ask the question:
'IF YOU HAVEN'T WON A RUGBY WORLD CUP, CAN YOU BE CONSIDERED A GREAT?' 🤔🏆 Let us know what you think in the comments.
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0:00 Meaning of being a Springbok
3:45 drinkag1.com/therugbypod
4:48 Primal Ardie
7:00 Friction in the Boks
9:25 Rugby Means More...
12:20 Is Ardie Savea a Rugby Great? - Sport
Jim is one of the few European pundits who give the boks the credit they deserve. Also Tim from Eggchassers
You must be south african
100% agree.... Jim and Tim give great views. Ironically, the English podcasts that I listen to all seem to be positive about the Boks. The Irish however seem to hate us but you can't blame them because they thought they scored Rassie and then he came back to SA, lol.
How does credit from others benefit us?
Fair comment - I'm Irish, but would agree there.
100%. Good guys.
I mean, I'm South African, but goodness anyone saying Savea isn't great is out of their mind. He's insanely good
Yup 👍🏼
I agree he's extremely talented also for someone his size to have that much dog in him is mind boggling 😂
Bok fan here. Ardie doesn’t need to win a WC to be regarded as one of the greats. Most South Africans would agree with this. In fact as much as I love Siya, Ardie is a better player.
Ardie isn't better in all aspects, though. PSDT defense can't be faulted. Ardie is a ball carrier and breakdown specialist. Different roles, both top of their game in each.
Jonah Lumo also never won a world cup and nobody doubt that he was a great if not the greatest.
@@wlk2408I'm a Kiwi who doesn't rate Jonah the GOAT. Beleive it or not.
@@greenplasticgunArdie is a better alround player. The best 8 in history.
@@JaemanEdwards Who will you rate as the GOAT?
As a South African bok fan, I have zero problems with Ardie Savea being named workd player of the year!
Bok fan here, but it is impossible not to like Savea. He’s a great player and role model.
Dan Bigger is a one of the games big names, outstanding, intelligent and humble. And Jim your channel is balanced and very thought provoking ... thank you
Dan is a great ambassador for Welsh and world rugby.
I could listen to these guys talk rugby for hours. Such flipping great insight.
My blood is 100% Green and Gold, BUT, Ardie is a legend, he will go down in history as being a great flank and a even better person. He doesn't need RWC validation. PSDT is also great, quiet, a grafter of note.
Savea is a Legend in his own right. Superb player
Really interesting, thanks, this thing about the Boks playing for that extra reason. As a Kiwi who grew up when the Boks were actually ahead of us in win-loss, I always had this feeling their motivation was something beyond what anyone else had and because of that, we had to lift our game, thus our motivation was high, let's be at our best to beat the Boks. Good work Jim bringing this dynamic more understanding.
Nothing better in all sport than Springboks v All Blacks.Loads of respect for AB’s🇿🇦
For the ABs it is almost a search of perfection, which means respecting all opponents enough to always bring your best, whereas the Springboks can play a magnificent game against the ABs one game just to fall flat the next week against another like the Wallabies. The Boks certainly rate the Wallabies and other teams but it seems for them the ultimate challenge beside the World Cup, is fronting up and besting the ABs.
@@coatknightwhen Rassie said the Boks are the only thing that works in South Africa, he nailed it. The rest of the world might not understand this but we in SA are seeing how our infrastructure crumbles by the day, our sporting structures, economy and before Rassie took over, our rugby structures as well. We had black administrators forced on us by the ANC government which would watch soccer on the tv while the Boks played a test.
It took serious losses and the watching public baulking before there was a weakening from our inept government and recalled their cadrss from the game.
We had and still have so much to deal with that it is a miracle that our society is still functioning.
All this I say in order to emphasize that our rugby development is still in its infancy on franchise level seeing our players leave as soon as they can to play overseas and we find it difficult to build like Leinster would. Yes, the AB's remain our best rival but with the likes of Tony Brown coaching the Boks, for about the first time since going proffesional, the Boks can start focussing on backline play and development, something sorely lacking but Rassie had to concentrate on what part of our strenghts were, now the other parts can be developed. Then we will be able to play the lesser teams and beat them more often than not.
@@cobusbrits2Just as well black players were forced on the Boks. It helped them win the last two world cups. All white teams can't win a world cup. Haven't you noticed ? That's the key, not Rassie. You got the huge strength of the stoic Afrikaans species combined with the flair and speed of the Native Africans and Coloureds. The ultimate mix. Like the powerful Polynesians and the tough farming stock Pakeha.
@@JaemanEdwards I don't think he has an issue with black players but the way they were forced to promote some when they weren't ready and to the detriment of those who should be there on merit or who really wanted to be there. SA is finally to a point where a lot of bkack talent comes through the age groups but many people still don't realize that most Springboks come from a select few schools.
Jonah Lomu didn't win a world cup. In fact he never scored a try against South Africa but he was a rugby great if not the greatest.
Dan is excellent at this; asks great questions and comments very well. He also shows respect where due.
Jim South Afrika love you and your rugby stories
09:25 Did I just become a Dan Biggar fan? I think I just became a Biggar Dan Fan :O
😂
He didn't have many that big girls blouse
Always thought Jim was a good guy. Honest, good communicator, genuine. As an Englishman I've always had an (unfounded) opinion on Biggs. Since joining this you get to form an opinion based on reality rather than patriotism. What a great guy. Intelligent, clear, honest. Love the interactions between you two. Goodey and Jim is a different dynamic which is also A1, but love listening to you two talk it out. I could literally (and do) listen for hours.
Jim what you are doing is so great for growing the game.Really getting to know the players creates heroes and legends.I for one don’t read newspapers anymore and have to rely on rugby pods like yours to get more information.Eternally grateful for most rugby pods.
I just adore this show, I learn so much, such great insight to other rugby nations and players. As a Kiwi I just needed to say that despite the heartbreak of losing the world cup, I could not be more proud of our All Blacks. I believe in our team and support them through all the adversity. Ardie deserves every accolade, he is a warrior and loved in NZ win or lose ❤
One of moments of the World Cup is Dan Biggar admonishing his players for "fucking around" . Showed his temperament as an uncompromising player. Big respect.
Although the sissy soccer dive during SA Lions tour was a revelation too.
Biggar cost Wales big time at the Japan RWC. Couldnt tackle to save himself, which is why I never respected him as a player. Bloody good kicker though.
As a saffa and a proud one I love Peter Steph what a phenomenal player he is and we have a whole lot to choose from with such deep stories etc but my two favorite players are Savea and Kwagga. Ardie plays with such high intensity and heart and he be a rock. Kwagga to me is the best 6 in the world and so underrated. I’d love to see him start matches.
Interesting discussion and it's great hearing the behind the scene back stories and super pride of SA (especially as a South African). 2 points I would like to weigh in on,
* Dan encountered SA in the semi finals with Wales in 2019 and lost in a grinding game that could have gone either way.
* To be remembered as a great, I don't think winning a world cup should define a players stature because it's a team sport with 15 players.
But then everybody will be remembered as great
@@KiloPage777 I think his point is that a World Cup reflects the team as a whole while an individual can shine at any time.
@@coatknight thanks for clarifying 👍😅
MORE DAN BIGGAR. Love this show. Love Jim. I’m a NZer and knew nothing about the NH teams before I started listening to this.
I could really listen to Dan Biggar all day… that Welsh accent is awesome man 😂
I find it crazy how casually the GOAT term is thrown around nowadays. Every new flavour of the month seems to get GOAT status now. Dan Biggar suggesting Dupont is potentially the best to play the game is wild? Winning a World Cup is a consideration must. The biggest players are measured by their performances in the biggest games. The greats are force multipliers and find a way to get it done. How could you not take in the degree of the stakes? DuPont has never won a test match in New Zealand or South Africa. He just recently blew it in a home World Cup. I know a greats longevity can be boring but sustained success is a hallmark of greatness. Savea is measured against past All Blacks. Dan Carter has won everything for well over a decade and been the main reason for it. He has World Cups, Tri Nations/Rugby Championships, Lions Series, Grand Slam Tours, Super Rugby Trophies, French Top 14 titles, 3 time world player of the year and 2 time nominee, the most points ever in test matches, only 12 losses in a 112 test career...The list goes on. Getting to number 1 in such a violent sport is extremely tough, staying there for well over a decade when everyone and their mother is game planning and gunning for you is practically unprecedented. We can appreciate good players without the need to bloviate unnecessarily. Savea and DuPont are very good, not great. That is not an insult to them. But calling them great is doing a disservice to the actual all time greats. DuPont hasn't done anything outside Europe really. For Savea, being an All Black, he is going to be compared to other modern All Black greats. He is good but he is no Dan Carter, Richie McCaw, Kieran Reid and Sam Whitelock etc. Rant over.
Great inside,love the game of rugby,dont take sides,great interviewer.
As Saffas its rare that we hear such positive comments about our team. I guess it has something to do with some of our toxic arragant fans who most Saffa fans hate too. Anyways, we appreciate the love from your channel big Jim.
As a Kiwi I'm always knocking the Tin Arseboks
And all South African fans are angels and respectful? Lmao
Jim you are an absolute legend. As a South African I love hearing how you see the game and appreciate different styles. World Rugby need to do more collabs with you if they want to grow the game and keep people interested
This was great! Dan Biggar is class. Very insightful!
One more thing to add to what you guys are saying about wanting it more is the universe definitely chooses winners above winners and Rassie falls into that category… so did the late Kitch Kristie….😊
Most Saffas know Ardie is a beast, rather than not choose him we'd rather have him with PSDT!
Love Dan Biggar. Always brought a warriors’s attitude when facing the Boks in South Africa!
Great content thanks 😊
The Parisse example is a really good one. But if we are being really honest, we are going to keep growing the amount of players who are considered 'Great' until the word becomes watered down to the point it no longer means anything. Winning a World Cup does add to that magic of a player and a tangible trophy you won that puts you as an outlier of the outliers.
Correct - most of the pundits/commentators are under the impression the game started maybe in the last 30 years, or even after that. In the forties and fifties Hansie Brewis was the greatest fly half, in the sixties there was Barry John, then came Phil Bennet, in the eighties Naas Botha, and later Fox, Lynach, Wilkinson, Carter, and Pollard and now Sexton...are these other greats accomplishments now diminished because the played in other eras? All these players have individually shone and has either a Grand Slam(from the Southern Hemisphere over the home nations and France), a Lions tour win or one or 2 RWC gold medals! Yet Sexton is in the "conversation" of being the GOAT - he has only a Six Nations Grand Slam which does not mean a lot outside Europe, just like the Championship means little north of the equator.
Which European Country played and won tests against thethe three Southern Hemisphere giants on the same tour, or in the same season away from home? I don't think it ever happened,(LIONS series wins are excluded) yet Halls of Fame are littered with so-called "greats" from Europe, even if they failed on Lions series tours...
@@battievandermerwe9121 they are all great within their brackets. Lions greats.. Scotland greats... Irish greats etc... but all in all the one thing that brings all of them together is a world cup. So it is the world cup that etches your name truly into history without an Astrix next to your announcement of 'Great." I have seen players like Finn Russel being seen as a 'Great' which as a Scot I find hilarious. You need to win the tying factor... That's the world cup. Period.
How many World Cups have Jonah Lomu or Christian Cullen??@callumallison1662
Jonah Lomu was not a great player because he never won a world cup
Savea doesn’t need a World Cup. A great of the game for sure. Great leader as well.
Who’s to say? What one can say is that it helps quite a bit!
Top show, loved the discussion
Fantastic content. Of course we love our PSDT, he is truly one of the greatest rugby players ever, but, Ardie is an insanely talented player and I for one was truly happy for him to receive the award. The thing with us Bokke fans, most of us really love and respect the AB's and they would be the team we cheer for when our Bokke aren't playing.
You don’t have to win a world cup to be considered the greatest, although it definitely counts as a huge jewel in the crown. But putting on a man of the match performance in two finals is the stuff of legends. It’s the kind of thing we’ll be telling our grandchildren along with Deon Fourie’s story, despite their incredulity at how unbelievable that is.
In my opinion PSdT is the greatest player we’ve ever produced.
Duane Vermeulen was the Man of the Match in the 2019 final with PSdT in 2023 - so there goes Savea's and Brooke's or any other number 8"s claim as being the G.O.A.T in the RWC Era in terms of accolades - Bronze medal in 2015, Gold in 2019 including MoM in the final and Gold again in 2023. The closest is Kieran Read in terms of medals but no MoM performance. The same record in terms of medals applies to PSdT, BUT he delivered a Man of the Tournament/player of the year performance in 2019 as well, as MoM in the 2023 final, so where does he rate in terms of the "great" flankers where McCaw, Jones, Collins or Burger are often cited. Kholisi has a better medals record in RWC as well - the same as both PSdT and Vermeulen - there are NO backrow players from the Six nations that come close, yet they are all over the place and discussions when it comes to international Hall of Fame inclusions.
Just think Both of you are probably up there with the best in your positions!
Great interview
My sister met Dan and Zammit and the lads in Cape Town when they were all going out after the game! Cool people :)
Savea is world class! Nuff said….
If Kolisi was judged purely on his playing ability he wouldn't be that great. Put 2 world cup captaincies in there and he's elevated. True.
But that is what makes rugby great, some players are physical freaks of nature, some have BMT in spades, some are a mix and then some just exude a love for the game and those around them.
Yeah the same goes about captains like Warbuton and Martin Johnson
Those guys are more than players in that they are leader of men who are vital
Ardie is one of the greatest players from NZ ever! He is, and should be in the conversation!
Hell! If we put Ronaldo, and Messi in the same conversation then obviously Ardie is in the same conversation as a guy like PSdT and Duane. How can you not!?
The answer is no, of course not. I'm a Bok fan and Savea is definitely an all time great! Even Lomu never won a World Cup.
If you had to pick an Earth rugby side to play against the visiting aliens, both Ardie and Pieter-Steph would be in your loose trio. They are both greats.
I'll take one of each, thanks
Big Jim is a legend
Both are great.. so we're splitting hairs here.. wat is greater? Winning 2 worldcups is greater
Don't think you need to have won a world cup to be one of the greats, but it should definitely have an influence.
And if he's won two WCs in a row and best player of the year?
@@user-ug3ef6rq9o is there a specific player you’re referring to?
Dan Biggar was pure class in an underwhelming Welsh team, he just needed a real pack of forwards to get the best out of him, Biggar would have been a great fit as Bok flyhalf
The Japan option is a great mix of a good financial opportunity without the pressure to constantly be result focussed. They can develop their game with the pressure slightly off without making financial sacrifices.
Wrt the greatness, you can be a great player without winning a world cup; but if you want to be considered a great team you need to win a world cup 😅
Think I'd rather play with my local club. For me, there's nothing better.
Connection.
They will never feel that, with plastic clubs.
SA here. High school coach (very successful) told me that his best teams over the many years were the teams with some friction between players. Conversation after a practice with a fight between 2 guys both 1st team.
i've always liked Biggar. And Savea is awesome, i am happy with him getting the accolades.
Watching the game again Telea was a conlmplete menace too. Deserves a lot of credit against a solid Bok defence
Both are great players, regardless of trophies.
I bet Jim is coming down to Cape Town for Springboks clash later in the year.😄
Yes
It absolutely matters and people who say otherwise are just coping
Where can one watch that PSDT interview?
it will be on rugby pass but it's not come out yet
Often the ”why” is the difference.
If you have a why the result is all that counts.
Ardie Savea is a freggin beast a truck with lightning speed. Scary bugger
The emotional motivation is huge for the Boks which is why tournament rugby is great for us but we can't always be that emotionally driven and that's why the more professional motivated teams are more consistent.
Hi Jim- preferably Both!😂
YES!!! UNFORTUNATELY YOU HAVE TO!!!!
🏆🏆🏆🏆💪💪💪💪🇿🇦🇿🇦🇿🇦🇿🇦
Winning a World Cup is about how great the team is. Those great teams still have great players, and usually a few more greats than a team that didn't win the World Cup. Often pre-world-cup-average players become regarded as greats after they win a world cup.
Bottom line is being great comes down to the individual performance rather than team performance. Sergio Parisse for example.
Also worth pointing out, you can be a great but if you don't mix well with others in your team you can actually get in the way.
To me the following are great players that never won a world cup: Sergio Parisse, Castro Giovanni, Alun Wyn Jones, Adam Jones, Shane Williams, Felipe Contepomi, BOD, ROG, Christian Cullen, Thierry Dusautoir, Zinzan Brooke, Paul O'Connel, Peter Stringer, Carlos Spencer, Matt Gieteau, David Pocock, Christophe Dominici, Doug Howlett.....the list goes on and honestly as i sit here and type them out i realise its impossible.
I tried to stay away from current greats because they still technically have a chance. Also, I am a South African so i thought i would spare the non-saffas from another Bok fan rambling about how great all the Springboks have been (Naas Botha lol).
Dan is a 'Great' player too.
You don't need to be win a world cup to be a rugby great. There's no such thing is best player in a team sport. There's no objective measurement for best player in a team sport. 🇿🇦
Pieter-Steph Savea
Ardie du Toit
dont need a world cup to be a great player since rugby is a team sport. like dupont for instance, probably the best scrumhalf of all times, maybe joost van der westhuizen is better. but he is still tops.
Du Pont seems to be a mix of Joost and Fourie.
Where is Goode?
I listen to Jim more than my mother, father and whole extended family 😂
😂
I agree for ne the greatest GOAT flyhald of all time and am a rabid springbok supporter was not a springbok not an all black not a welshman an irish or English or frenchman or Australian.
He was HUGO PORTA a hall of famer he is but he played in the era when argentina was not a really top team just to imagine if he was behindva BOK forward pack or ALL BLACK or LIONS pack JUST IMAGINE to what heights and trophies he'd have won but nonetheless he is still a hall of famer one of the GREATS.
I'd have Beauden Barrett or Ritchie Mounga. They play like Hugo wished he could.
You don't have to win a RWC to be a great, but you do have to win if you want to be remembered.
Not true. Jonah Lomu never won a RWC but is still the biggest name in rugby.
Ardie is one of the best. World Cup or not. Even as a Boks fan I am a huge Ardie fan.
Where are the interviews
You can put all the best players in the world in one team and they still might not win a world cup together. To win a world cup is not about any individual but the whole team. Therefore I don't think you can rate a player as one of the greats whether he won a world cup or not. Now rating a team as one of the greatest teams yes as that you can base of winning a world cup.
The new Zealand teams who won back to back world cups are Legends just like the Boks you win world cups in any sport you considered a legend that's how it is
Ardie is great and truly one of the greats. Du Pont, well how much is hype. WC in France, France going to win and all of that. Great scrumhalfs, well how about Will Jordan and our own Fourie Du Preez. Jip always also remember those who came before. Du Pont, well I am sceptical.
This would be the hardest decision to make in world rugby. They both elite players, you can’t find any better than them.
Bok fan, but trying to choosing seems wrong. I've always loved the way PSDT plays, but then I look at Savea clips, then back to PSDT... Yup, false choice they're both A+
Brian O’Driscoll is a classic example of a great not winning a World Cup. I keep imagining him in the current Irish setup.
Exactly.
Very simple answer to this question:
Rugby is a team discipline, not an individual team. TEAMS win Rugby World Cups, not individual players. So there you go.
Nah. Your answer is not simple. It doesn’t answer the question at all. Is Ardie Savea a rugby great? That’s the question. If someone is not fortunate enough to be surrounded by players who help you in a team sport to win a world cup it shouldn’t stop you being from being considered a rugby great if you actually deserve that accolade.
All the greatest soccer players of the world are all World Cup winners too. There is a certain humbleness about them….. Pele, Ranoldo, Roberto Carlos Rivoldo, Maradona, Messi, Romario , Ronaldhino, ….Just a couple that really stood out for me over the years.
For player they don't necessarily have to win the world cup to be called the best, but for a Team I would say yes, they have to win the world cup to be called the best, undisputedly.
PSTD all the way!
Best player....agreed.....however its a team sport.
They were all in Japan before the RWC! PSdT, Faf, DDA, Franco, Marx...
I feel like ardie should have got world player a long time ago and this one was well overdue
You dont have to win the rwc to be a great player however when you win 2 rugby world cups in a row and were player of the tournament for 1 and a top 5 player for the other nobody can ever deny that you are a great
Biggar has never come across as a good guy. However, listening to him speak in this Pod a few times now, he comes across as a great guy. Would have been nice if all teams could do a "Chasing the Sun" type of documentary focussing on the players, their lives and so on. I'll bet many of the guys we see, like OF, might actually be nice guys.😂 🇿🇦
I think Savea is constantly better, but I also think PSDT was better in World Cup final.
2 excellent players, but why choose?
The world cup does not reward the individual, it rewards the team as the team rewards its country.
And what More does Eben have TTO DO????!!!!
I think of you have too much ego conflict within a team...any sports team , no matter how much they say they pull together in training its impossible not to be a negative ...Thats exactly why Rassie selects as much on personality as he does on ability..No place for egos ..I know this because he said it.
All I can say Africa makes you a bit harder have to be strong to make it here
IMO the All Blacks would have been the RWC champions for sure if Savea was the captain the whole world cup.
Sorry to say but Pierre Spies was by far the best number 8 before he had health issues
Ardie Savea is clearly a machine compared to him, how is this even a debate?
Jim makes a boring game like rugby union spectacular.
colin slade has won two world cups, brian o'driscoll zero. world cups are epic and immensely important, but they are not everything.
Beauty of SA team haven't needed stars....greater than sum of parts. I wonder if we had superstars like Duponts and Ardies whether we would still win world cups. Superstars almost inhibit winning culture sometimes. Brad Pitt moneyball😅
Marx, Malherbe, Ox, Eben, RG, PSDT - these are superstars, each in the discussion for greatest ever in their position.
Which is why we won b2b coz 1-10 determines who wins, 11-15 the margin