Pilatus PC-12 Crash Chamberlain S.D. NTSB Preliminary Report
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- čas přidán 6. 08. 2024
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NTSB Preliminary Report:
www.ntsb.gov/news/press-relea...
PC-12 Stall Protection System:
pilatusowners.org/wp-content/u...
PC-12 Stall Video
• PC 12 Stalls
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Mark O'Conner
"One Winter's Night
• One Winter's Night - M... - Věda a technologie
Correction- Idaho Falls, not Twin Falls Idaho.
In those conditions an inexperienced pilot should not have taken off.
Park the aircraft indoors, wait for the weather to improve.
In my experience, of flying Part 135, on Challenger 604, in Russia, during winter, parked outside.
de-ice, add significant amount of speed, and a slower rotation, in icing condition.
Very good briefing, well done, interesting briefing.
Another aspect of normalcy bias compounded with denial. So many flights go without a hitch, and so will this one it is thought. Or was it a false confidence in deicing boots? Were the props booted?
Such a tragic incident, especially with children onboard. My prayers go out to the families. I'm guessing they didn't have a 12' ladder available to de-ice the horizontal stabilizer/elevator.
Jaun, thoughts on the fatal (2) crash outside of Reno back in October? Flight originated from Tahoe.
@@hzilla5550 0:50 in the video. Blades have boots. The two blades sticking up don't show damage indicating power-on contact with the ground, i.e. the tips don't appear to be damaged from a ground strike or bent forward as is usually the case with a power-on strike.
Looks like it wasn't turning when it hit.
I have personally deiced dozens of PC-12s after conditions like the ones described here. Icing, especially on the tail, can take a ridiculous amount of 180 degree Type 1 to remove, as in over 100 gallons for a medium aircraft (I've done a G550 with 19 gallons and very light frost). Icing is incredibly dangerous and not something that can be remedied without proper equipment. In my opinion, this should have been a no-fly day in *any aircraft* especially one that does not have heated surfaces for anti-ice. You simply cannot reliably manually remove ice from he air-frame, it *has* to be melted either by weather or a deicing crew before it's anywhere close to safe to fly.
100% agree!
If you would have been the pilot those people would be alive..I have known a couple of private pilots in my lifetime and they were cautious just like you..
@robert veal Agreed. Thats is why cars and trucks exist. If you have time to spare, go by air.
I would be interested know how or if they deiced the top of the horizontal stabilizer. It’s a fairly good distance above the ground.
@@raoulcruz4404 I doubt it, if there were no proper deicing facilities available.
Even such a capable aircraft has its limits. Often the the downfall of such reliable designs such as the Pilatus and the King Air series is their reliability. Pilots begin to feel invincible and become complacent about the terrible dangers of factors such as icing, density altitude, thunderstorms, fuel additive requirements (prist). We all can learn from this, not by judging the pilots involved, but realizing with the proper pressure and "get-there-itis" we all can fall into dangerous behaviors. People much smarter than me have lost their lives in aircraft.... Always remember its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground. Condolences to all.
Excellent
Well said!
Same thing I've discovered about sailors (racers and recreational).
We become complacent about the wind and water and also a bit, or more, arrogant and/or trusting about our own skills.
@@glenndower2513 Absolutely. Know many line pilots who have retired and bought boats...Then sold them after they were scared out of their minds. Sailors have all my respect.
True with every aircraft type, every car, everything we do. Complacency occurs in a safe design or a design that is more challenging.
I learned to fly in the winter. and flew a lot in the winter.......a number of times their was icy snow on the wings that wouldn't just "broom" off. For if you did try, you would damage the skin of the plane during the process. The only hangarless solution........walk away, fly another day.
I grew up and was close with this family. I still talk to their oldest daughter. This is so heartbreaking, and it was so preventable. They did not have to get home that day. Both of the oldest two daughters were pregnant when the crash happened, both lost their husbands in the crash. Stockton had just gotten married in October.
Physics is merciless..
Sorry for your loss.
My cousin’s son was one of those killed. He left behind a wife (daughter of the pilot) a child and a child on the way. She lost her husband, father, grand father and other male members of her family. I read about this crash while working down in Antarctica and didn’t learn/know it was a family member until a day or two later.
Tragic news. Condolences.
If I couldn't remove ice and snow from the aircraft within 10-15 minutes during preflight, working alone, I'd call it a day, return to lodgings and wait for better conditions. As two individuals couldn't clean it up after more than two hours of effort and they still decided fly, that was just plain nuts.
Thanks again Juan. I really appreciate your insight into these events. I appreciate your extra added insight over that of the NTSB. Being from Dallas and starting with Delta flight 191, I have read many NTSB reports both preliminary and Final. Your first-hand experience in aviation provides me, a mechanic, with extra objective in sight.
Wishing all at Blancolirio World HQ a wonderful Christmas and a happy New Year many thanks for your great videos
As a retired Controller (33 years) and a TSI trained aircraft accident investigator, you are doing God's work with these reports. Your insights will undoubtable save pilot lives (if they watch these vids)...great stuff I never miss an episode. Thanks again for the great work.. If I can ever be a resource feel free to contact me.
I've been flying my PC12 for 20 years and over 3,000 hours. This and the Idaho crash were so senseless and avoidable that it is heartbreaking to watch. Excellent reporting. I changed my personal minimums after the Montrose frost crash to no flight with ANY frost or foreign matter on the wings. None. The prospect of a tailplane stall is highly likely with a PC12 with any ice accretion. I have been in numerous situations where a lesser airplane would have crashed. You have to try really hard to wreck a PC12. It's a shame the innocent paid with their lives for one man's stupidity.
Juan, Thank you for such a detailed and most informative update. You’re by far the best on CZcams! Be safe and well.
T-tail brings in another whole aspect to de-icing as well. Especially without really big ladders/sprayers. And a heavy aircraft...
Yep, tail 14ft in the air. I'm willing to say it was not de-iced....
Corey Ballard Yes , even if the wings had been completely clear of ice , at rotation with all that weight the elevator would already have given the horizontal stabilizer a high AoA, and any remaining ice on it would be sufficient to produce a tail stall quite easily . No hope of recovery at that altitude.
Juan...I just wanted to add, thank you for these reports...you explain things in terms that are easy to understand...Merry Christmas, and I hope you can start flying again soon...
I can see manually de-icing a low wing like the PC-12, but how the hell do you de-ice a T-tail 14ft in the air? Even a 6ft ladder isn't going to get you there.
This flight was pure madness.
Sideslip Good point. I don’t think you do nor can you.
Ive been told its almost impossible to deice a plane without fluids.
C and K Early Warning Systems
Heated fluids and/or heated hanger.
@@speedlever or know the weather your potentially flying into and if its stored overnight wing covers... they are a pain in the butt im sure but may save a life...
C and K Early Warning Systems
Hard to put wing covers on a high t tail.
To say that I have been waiting for this with much anticipated interest is an understatement. I have a lot of questions and know the video coverage will hit the mark on all of them. Thank you for posting these excellent and insightful videos!
Thank you very much for your efforts!!..I for one really appreciate your dedication to flight as well as your dedication to your immediate vicinity 😊
Thank-you for another excellent video. I always come straight to your channel to get detailed information and your perspective. Happy New Year to you and your beautiful family!
thanks for another great update, no one does it better than you
Thanks for the very professional reporting on this accident Juan. I live here in Idaho falls and our local news outlets didn't give even close to half the information you gave us! They're a very good family that lost so many loved ones. This family was very charitable and gave millions of meals to suffering countries.
Thanks for the report Juan. So sad when this happens.
Another well-explained video Juan, also can't wait for your take on Atlas Air Flight 3591's preliminary report.
Tragic.
After 30 some-odd years of being a VFR private pilot, I’d say that “get home-itis” played a part in this tragic accident. I’ve felt it too. And the temptation to take off in scud-running weather has been my most arch enemy over the years. I’ve spent the night many times in an FBO’s office because of it.
This accident is so tragic. It makes me so sad. That bird you’re so familiar with and has taken you so far and had great times with can turn on you and do it’s best to kill you. It’s hard to remember it’s just a flying machine.... not your friend. And bad weather is a killer too. Even today, weather reports only tell parts of the story.
Condolences to the friends and family of this tragic accident. Rest In Peace.
I am lucky i fly for the fun of it. I dont have to be anywhere any time. I can wait. I flew a few years in wisconsin and understand deicing is necessary. Fogging windshields is a probldm too along with preheat prior to starting. Cold weather flying is no joke.
+1 if it doesnt feel right. Better to do something else.
Get there-itis has a partner called "I'm the man." Unfortunately they ride side by side in too many folks.
Thank you for the excellent explanation of the effects of a very powerful engine and the twisting forces experienced when stalling a Pilatus aircraft
Great information Juan! Any accident that takes lives is tragic! My thoughts and prayers are with the family!
Thanks for the video.
This accident was terrible. I’m from Idaho Falls and went to school with several of the passengers and know the families very well. It was huge blow to the community. My heart aches knowing what they are going through.
I’m not into airplanes, but i am very mechanically inclined since I work and build cars. This is very easy to understand even for me, who doesn’t know much about planes. Thanks again for the video!
Once again, Juan is the man to go to for factual reporting in the aviation world (and utility companies too!) :) Nice dig at the MCAS system when you were explaining the PC12 stick pusher system ;) at about 3 minutes in.
I feel so bad for the families. Going to be a tough Christmas this season. May God ease their pain.
Excellent info as usual, Juan. It sure looks to me like get-there-itis was a big factor in this one. If only we had a time machine. God rest their souls.
Excellent report Juan to a tragic accident which unfortunately looks like human error. Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to you and your family;-))
Juan
A very concise summary of the NTSB preliminary report with some appropriate but restrained expert comments. Thank you.
Hi Juan, another sobering and factual video. As an instrument pilot, I know the pressures of schedules and the desire to take-off. Unfortunately, they had no hanger space to protect the airplane and the pilot probably lacked the experience to tell him -- "do not go." Many lives were lost and a lot of pain remains for the survivors. Thanks for keeping us abreast and reminding us of safety, safety, safety. Merry Christmas, Juan, and family. - Dean from Minnesota
Keep up the great work! Watching from Alberta Canada.
I was an operator of a PC12NG when on one occasion as the aircraft rotated on take-off the stall warning system activated although no stall was imminent. A circuit was flown back to a safe landing with the stall warning/stick shaker system active throughout the flight.
It was found that a single AOA sensor (the aircraft have two - one on the outboard section of each wing) had failed prior to the flight but the stall warning only activated as the aircraft left the runway (I believe a weight on wheels switch is involved).
The distraction from the audio and shaker was such that the flight back to the runway was extremely challenging in excellent VMC conditions.
I would be very reluctant to assume anything at all about the Chamberlain flight.
Very vital/pertinent information. Is this a well known issue with the PC12. Have there been any AD's issued relating to this event?
@@markjennings2315 I'm not in a position to comment on either question. What I can say is that over a relatively short period of time we had several failures of the AOA sensor and it didn't appear to come as a surprise to the service centre. The units were swapped out each time for overhauled components through an exchange scheme. Only on one occasion did the event I described happen though. I did try to let the NTSB know yesterday but there is no online process to pass on information to the NSTB that I could see. They do give a postal address though which frankly is a pain!
No 1. Every bit of condolences to those who lost lives and family after having trusted aviation travel, particularly here. It becomes somewhat unsung that everyone trusting flight moves societal efforts forward at a risk.
No. 2. I appreciate the integration of technology and flight, but the reality is, pilots need to be given a simple 'checklist' to take over (hand fly) the plane (meaning pilots need to have understanding and experience hand flying - which you clearly had). Boeing use to appreciate that concept.
Thank you Juan for your report. This is truly a tragedy. Thoughts and prayers to all the occupants and their families.
How tragic.
Thank you for breaking this down.
Feliz Navidad y Prospero Año Nuevo para us. y su familia.
For many years we operated our company aircraft out of an airport at the foot of the San Gabriel Mountains near Los Angeles, California. Many aircraft have been lost in those very nearby mountains from a familiar human condition called "Get-Back-Fever" [which is the same effect and affect as "Get-There-Itis"]. Pilots often make the same mistake as tourists thinking that California is an "easy" sunshine state. The weather here can rival the Himalayan Mountains and the Gobi Desert.
You are right. The Sierra Nevada's are reputed to have the most changeable ski and weather conditions of any mountain range in the world.
Just looked up the airfoil the PC- 12 uses, a NASA LS (1) - 0417 MOD is used at the root, blending to a LS (1) 0313 at the tip. These airfoils are laminar flow airfoils. As I remember reading about them they have a narrow drag bucket window and highly critical to surface contamination. This translates into surface contamination on the airfoil will cause rapid degradation of lift caused by flow separation due to surface contamination.
Looks to me the flight may have been doomed before it left the ground if they didn't get all the surface contaminant off all of the wings.
I agree. I also think the tail wasn't de-iced.
Sad situation and I think you’re right, doomed before start up. I had thought that possibly some ice or a piece of ice moving might have caused controllability issues that were not present at run up. It may never be know for certain. Very tragic.
Good research Kriss!
@@blancolirio
Would taking off in a lot of snow on the runway cause additional issues?
@@blancolirio I'm designing a new off airport use aircraft, I am learning airfoil selection is very important.
I learned from a former Boeing aerodynamicist, the number one job of an aerodynamicist is to make questionable or poor airfoils airfoils have reasonable flight characteristics.
Been following for around a year or better, but have learned so much more than passing news stories from you. I know you go through a lot of paper to read through everything and THEN put together a coherent and very to the point content. Thank you! And I've been thinking for the past couple months we need a mighty luscombe air fresher to buy! It would be pretty cool to have her hanging from the rear view mirrior!
YES! An air freshener in 100LL/ straight 50W oil scent.
Yes!
Haa! good idea!
Juan, my CHRISTMAS WISH to YOU and Every Pilot Up Above is that You All Have Perfect Take-Offs, Easy Straight and Level Fights and Greased Landings during Every Flight in the NEW YEAR ! sdh in CT (BDL)
Thanks Juan for your factual, no frills update on this incident. I’m no pilot, but have ridden motorcycles for 53* years. This sounds like “gottagethome” syndrome. Very sad. My brother is a pilot with around 3k+ hours and has lost many friends due to this issue of self inflicted urgency. I see the same thing happen to riders as well. Stay safe my friend and we’re praying for your return to excellent health.
Thank You Juan vary good info Marry Christmas to you and your family hope you have a Joye's holiday this year from the Edwards family
Thanks Juan. Great reporting. Jesse at Pure Living for Live just got his pilot license in Idaho. He is very good but always worth being aware this time of year. Those poor guys trying to meet a deadline with all those kids onboard. I was thinking if they powered up the engine but since they were in takeoff mode they were already at full power. I talked to pilots that fly around Reno and they said that a flat spin is actually a potentially survivable event. I wonder if they could have eaten crow feathers and shut down the engine and induced a flat spin to reduce rate of decent some and maybe a few more people would have survived. Such a short time to decide from gunning it and trying what has to be a horrible feeling of inducing a flat spin. Great video!
Thanks as always for your efforts to keep us informed.
From reading the NTSB prelim it seems pretty clear that since the pilot and one or more passengers, spent 3 hrs clearing ice and snow from the aircraft, there was some intense pressure on to fly out of that field that day. As has been noted in the article and comments, that kind of pressure has killed a lot of people.
In Dryden, Ontario, on March 10, 1989, a Fokker F-28 twin jet transport, with 69 people aboard, took off in the snow and crashed shortly after. The aircraft sat on the ground while being refueled and accumulated between 1/8-1/4 inch of ice/snow on wings and tail surfaces while doing so. The APU unit was unusable thus one engine had to be left running while refueling. The aircraft could NOT be deiced with an engine running due to airline rules against carrying the fumes from that process into the cabin. The pilots were already late so there was pressure to fly. According to the article in Air Disasters Vol 3, by MacArthur Job, the two pilots (35,000 hrs+ between them) discussed the situation and thought the air flowing over the surfaces would blow the snow off the wings. 27 people died proving that idea was wrong.
www.amazon.com/Air-Disaster-Vol-Macarthur-Job/dp/187567134X
The airfoil shape on modern aircraft is a very sophisticated piece of engineering. The airfoil shape,on a Ford Tri-Motor of 1930 looks like something carved out of wood with a boy scout jack knife by comparison. But the shape of modern high performance airfoils is vastly different. They are designed to produce the required amount of lift, while diminishing the drag, producing more speed and better fuel economy and longer range. A very minor amount of snow and ice, can dramatically alter the air flow enough to produce disaster. It isn't the "drag" over the ice that matters anywhere near as much as how it has CHANGED the shape of the airfoil! Yet we see this same scenario over and over, remember Flight #90 crashing into the Potomac River? Ice and snow caused a dramatic loss of lift and caused engine power instruments to read incorrectly. Those pilots thought the snow was not enough to be a problem either!
I can't for the life of me understand how an experienced, instrument rated pilot, operating a truly superb all weather aircraft like this one could NOT know the damage even a small amount of snow and ice could do to the flight characteristics of that aircraft. Sadly this is not likely the last time this sort of thing will happen.
Hope & pray for not only the surviving family members solace in this tragedy...
But as well, that what you've reported about the accident may reach the ears of any other pilots facing the same possible scenario. -11b4p 82nd
Thanks for the clear normal explination. Without it I'm hoplessly lost in technical jargon. Super interesting.
Thank-you for info, been wondering! how tragic!!!
Thank you for reporting on this tragedy so professionally.
It seems most likely that the de-icing efforts were insufficiently effective, and the aircraft could only fly at all in ground effect, particularly with a pretty heavy load on board.
Still to soon to say with certainty, and there will be other potential causes to rule out, but sadly, this is an unfortunate cause in far too many incidents.
Terribly sad for the family concerned and indeed all those affected, from friends to first responders and beyond.
I have tried to remove frost and ice accumulated on an aircraft overnight and it just isn't possible without damaging the paint until such time as the metal underneath exceeds the freezing point for long enough that the ice can be slid off with your hand or a broom. I learned that the hard way.
Not to be a know it all.
It seems when complex safety override systems are in place they can means disaster if you bump into them. From private pilot training weather can be the biggest destroyer besides ego. Not saying this was a factor it can be better to be afraid, wait out the weather. When in doubt wait it out.
Like letting your children drive in imclimate weather. Black-ice on roadways happens everyday
Condolences to the families.
I have seen a few instances when a flight instructor lost his life in a situation he would not let his students fly
The bond between ice and metal is stronger than ice itself (according to one tribology book). In pure mechanical removal, ice will break close to that bond, leaving always some ice to the surface. Many non-metallic surfaces, like painted, are better, but the same phenomenon is there.
I was flown to a mine site in an Antonov An 2 biplane (upgraded to a turboprop though the return flight was in An Radial). It must be bigger than the PC12 inside. I doubt this aircraft would have stalled even with ice on its wings. The wings are fabric and I suspect resistant to ice buildup but the slats and Decelage angle between slated upper wing and lower makes it essentially installable. Slats provide high resistance against icing.
@@WilliamJones-Halibut-vq1fs no such thing as icing resistant wings, the wing of an Antonov 2a (kukuruznik) in fact ices quite easily due to the metal wire structure draining heat out of the wing... but yeah... that machine is rugged; so crashing in one, you are quite likely to survive just because the machine will absorb most of the impact with its structure.
still, icing is a huge factor in crashes, and even though the machine stalls dropping forward normally without spinning, reduced controllability and spins when turning are quite common for operators in places such as Karellia, or the white sea region (where the gulf-stream born super-cooled fog is common)
@@mikedupree832 gottagetthereitis I'm sure had a play in it
Icing is a scary thing. May those who died in this accident RIP. Thanks for the update Juan and as usual - most excellent content.
The final NTSB report finally came out on this last week. It included a video of the pilot taking off in super snowy conditions. When you have time I hope you do a follow up video even though it seems very straightforward and a lot of pilot error was involved.
Link?
Thank you Juan for the report. My thoughts go to the families.
I enjoy your reports and videos very much. Thanx
Get-there-itis is a very dangerous condition that can happen to anyone in every mode of transportation. Remember that every time you travel you are carrying “precious cargo” even if you’re going alone.
Thx I liked reading that .👍🏻🙏🏻
Excellent information and report Juan! Probably a case once again of a multitude of errors causing this crash. I bet three hours of trying to de-ice the plane didn't get all the snow and ice off, and by the time they were rolling probably collected significant ice before takeoff, storage outside in the freezing cold, almost immediate stall warning meaning not enough speed and lift, get-there-itis, and possibly overweight. But like you said, it seems like bad weather, especially cold and high humidity drop the performance and load capability of the aircraft. Very sad to hear four generations of one family died in the crash. Prayers for the affected families. Sometimes the best decision is not to tempt fate in the face of bad conditions.
Excellent reporting as usual. Thank you.
Thanks Juan! Great report! Merry Christmas to the whole family. How in the world could 3 people survive that type of crash?
Juan, an excellent explanation. Initially was struck by the fact that the Pilatus had dual inputs to activate the stick pusher, while the B737's MCAS relied on only a single source. My prior experience with the stick pusher was on the SW Metro where it was a no-go item. Both the Metro and the Pilatus have rather long fuselages with higher mounted vertical control surfaces. They both have adverse stall characteristics wherein the stick pusher was essentially a band aide to prevent entry into a potentially unrecoverable flight regime. I suspect that with the long aircraft body and a full load of passengers and gear that they were close to or possibly beyond the aft CG. This in its self could cause an instability wherein the aircraft could pogo along its pitch axis. I remember a commuter flight where the aircraft was stored in a heated hanger. The warm aircraft was pulled out and quickly loaded with passengers and baggage. However, there was still a light snow falling. This snowfall initially melted on contact with the aircraft's flight surfaces.By the time they got to the runway it had refrozen. When they got airborne the aircraft almost immediately rolled sharply to the left, as the the snow had pealed off unevenly. This was followed by a sharp roll to the right. The Pilot set the aircraft down on the runway with the gear up, but was unable to stop prior to the approach lights. 3 passengers lost their lives in the ensuing fire. There was also a DC-9 out of Denver that attempted to T/O with contaminated flight control surfaces, rolled immediately after becoming airborne and crashed back on the runway. I would normally brief, in potentially contaminating conditions, that we would do a slower than normal rotation, with a lift off at V-2 plus 20 kts. Our SOP was for a full power take off. I never truly trusted that the aircraft was totally clean after being deiced.
Man, I wish Juan was around for all of the aviation mishaps in the past with his knowledge and solid, unbiased and no grandstanding like the so called TV experts who either don't know what they are talking about, or they are afraid of the Network brass giving them the business if they do. Great work, Juan!!
Rich
Get-Home-Itis is treacherous. The PIC (or someone in the group) should've said "Nope, not today." I agree with Juan that this accident was baked in the cake the day prior. This airframe on accident day was contaminated with ice. Wingspan of 53' and the tail is 14' off the ground. Think you're going to be able to clear it on open ramp in freezing precipitation? Now add weight. Maybe not overloaded but this airplane was heavy. My rough numbers - 6200 EOW, 2000 fuel, 2000 payload against certified MTOW 10,450.
Yes, I'm thinking the horizontal stab was iced. De-icing it on the ramp would have been difficult to impossible. A heated hanger or leave it would have been my choice.
William Swenson they probably didn’t have stairs to reach the stab for deicing... I think you’re right.
@@JeffreyHexagon It is frustrating to continue to see this type of accident occurring in a time when flight training and aviation periodicals are as good as they can be when they address this problem. If you are going to heat that right seat, you need to set aside all earthly concerns and focus on aviating, navigating and communicating. If you can't fully prepare for conducting a flight which will carry passengers, don't go or hire someone competent. Again, humility when approaching things aviation, will save your life and more importantly, those of your passengers.
Sad thing? How about renting a AWD vehicle, or two, and driving home? The plane will be waiting for you.
@blancolirio
Quite a few years ago I was at a customers house who is also a private pilot. He had an FAA Icing Report/crash diagnosis of small private aircraft issues relating to ice. I’ve been reading stuff like this and understanding human factor error in many different fields for decades. Once I read this report I completely understood how desperately dire flight becomes when a plane even gets mild ice build up on the wings. The loss of lift and the disturbance of the airflow blew me away. I said at the time that every single person who flies should read this and you would understand why planes need to be deiced or just not damn flown. It talked all about the things you have mentioned Juan, how quickly icing can happen when you fly into it, so quickly even turning around 180 will not fix things. Many many times in this report it talked about the overconfidence of pilots and the lack of skill of dealing with this kind of weather related problem.
It gave many case Studies of general aviation crashes and the reasons why. And like so many incidents here that you can watch on CZcams, overconfidence and inability to realize you are in over your head are probably the most common mitigating factors.
This one is again particularly sad because there’s no reason anybody had to get on the airplane and go up in the air, nothing was that important.
Thanks again for your take on these matters and I continuously steer people here who wish to learn about flight and Northern California.
Peace
Is this what you are referring to?
www.faa.gov/documenTLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-74B.pdf
whodannywho , hello, many moons ago, my instructor &I were in a. C150, not predicted, but we were besieged by ICING, , ‘my plane’ he said, then do you realized what happened? Yes sir ,,we are several pounds heavier, well, we could NOT go lower because of terrain, going higher could be problematic , yes he said, what would you do ?first try to get out of here, but INCREASE AIRSPEED , then got home to base, ICE STILL ON THE AIRFRAME, LANDING , WHICH DREW A FEW ONLOOKERS, Cheers From NJ🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
The PC-12 is a superb all weather aircraft capable of outstanding performance, load carrying, speed and economical operation. They are a very desirable aircraft for a business to own exactly because of their capabilities.
But like all modern aircraft capable of performance like this, much of the secret to this capability is in the shape of the airfoil. Adequate lift, with good speed, long range and fuel economy are mainly because of the shape of that wing, plus outstanding power. The airfoil shape gives the required performance it was designed for when CLEAN. Any amount of snow or ice contamination can cause a tremendous change in that performance. All the wings, tail and all control surfaces must be clean for the aircraft to operate as designed. It is beyond belief that an experienced pilot would NOT know how little contamination it would take to make this aircraft incapable of flying safely.
That looks like the report I’ll have to go through it a little to see but it seems about the right size because I remember the thickness of it but anybody who flies in especially anybody who is a pilot should read this you will have a whole new respect for for this issue
@@nathanpitts1591 What you are saying would apply to any aircraft...correct, not just this model?..It is a really nice aircraft for sure..but no aircraft is going to perform as designed when you are "Fouling" it's aerodynamics. Very sad outcome..for all.
Great report Juan.
was a 'skyjumper' for about 10 years (696 jumps). always hated take-off to 1,000' mark. haven't seen too many 'perfectly good airplanes' on the flight line of most drop zones, mostly tired frankensteins or frank-en-otters. my only emergency exit was on take-off in a C-182. sitting on floor back to firewall, looked up and told the kid at the controls on the ground i smelled smoke (at 40 something i'd smelled a lot of different smoke in my time) he ignored me and went for it anyway. told him twice more and between 2 and 3 grand AGL he reaches across me pops open the door and declares there's smoke in the cockpit, we're losing altitude and you guys got to go. just barely high enough to still ride main down, strange sight looking down the line of flight as three more jump and plane descends. heard of an otter taking off with the stick still locked and barely avoided crashing.
They let something else drive their bus other than flying. There's no 'pause' button in aviation or skydiving. I passed on a lot of jumps because the weather/wind wasn't just right or didn't have the time to get everything together, suited up and still dirt dive the jump. "Better to be down here wishing you were up there, than being up there wishing you were down here." Merry Christmas to you and yours Mr. Brown.
there's a club for us that had to bail.. happened to me in 1980.. C180 blew a cylinder (after recent overall I might add) and all quite. roughtly 2000msl, 1000agl over a hill (close to the airport), so my buddy and I bailed.. He had a 5-cell, me just a PC before I bought my Comet lol
we landed in a small farm / field with sheep a running.. knocked on the door for a ride back to the airport... Fun memories :^) Pilot glided back ok.. Sheridan, OR
Nice breakdown Juan...👍🏻👍🏻
Good job, Juan. Thank you.
Really bad news so close to Christmas. But thanks again Juan. And merry christmas to you and your family
Looks like a miracle 3 could survive such a violent impact. 85ft of debris field isn’t much longer than the plane itself.
What a sad ending.
PC-12 is very popular with EMS services as well. It has largely replaced the smaller King Airs and twin Cessna's in that niche.
Thanks for this debrief.
The, "I have to be home for work tomorrow morning." I sail.. I have made that error once. I was lucky, I got a second chance. I think you are absolutely correct. Preventing ice, de-icing,, and the 3 hours attempt to clear the aircraft, coupled with 1C-1C. As always, a cogent explanation. Thank you.
With that many people, and likely a lot of gear, overloading and weight distribution is a significant factor, along with weather.
This is the state I'm from. People are acting like experts in local media stories. Glad you cleared it up from an expert.
Your depiction of the “violent stick shaker” was priceless! 😂🎸🎸
Thanks. Merry Christmas
Great report as always.
The fact that two members of the family spent three hours in those weather conditions attempting to deice speaks to an urgency to get home.
Including the pilot. Think of how exhausted he would have been once he initiated the flight and how compromised his physical skills and judgement would have been.
Amazing report as always, Juan. Thank you so much! NTSB has great preliminary list of potentially interacting contributory causes. Were there any terrain clearance issues that would have motivated command inputs other than straight ahead lowering of AOA?
Any evidence weight and balance and performance envelope calculated by PIC. Human factors too: important events scheduled? Heartbreaking, tragic. Best aviation safety reporting anywhere, Juan. Thank you.
Thanks for the update.
Juan your reports of air disasters are the only way people like myself can receive. Although you may mention a "probable" I like the fact that you never assume anything, find fault, guess etc. you just tell us what you know from reports. Coming from a very experienced pilot makes all the difference. This is another very sad occurrence & my condolences to the families.
Imagine trying to de-ice a t-tail at an uncontrolled field. Not very likely.
Also, Juan can only cover so much. A "stall departure" refers to the aircraft having the tendency to roll upon reaching aerodynamic stall. Having the pusher system is a clue that the factory test pilots shit themselves when they started stall testing way back when.
That's right Cash. A PC-12 covered in white is not going to be deiced adequately without big boy deicing equipment on hand. Not in those conditions.
Thank you Juan good job. so sorry for the widows..
So sad that they made that decision to fly in those bad conditions. Condolences to the family.
What they? There was no 'they'. There can only be one pilot in command. The boss has no say so about it, even if he or she is a pilot as well. You as the pilot have all those passengers; lives in your hands. You are God at that moment, so don't ever forget that fact. You may anger you boss(es) but you will live to fly another day, and so will they. This pilot seems to have forgotten this, if he ever knew it.
Lynn Kramer Sorry I meant the Pilot.
@@lynnkramer1211 You clearly know nothing about this incident. There was no "boss" involved here. This was a family outing and everyone was from the same family. Conrad and Bishoff is a petroleum distributor in Idaho Falls, providing local customers with gasoline, diesel and heating oil, including the US Department of Energy Idaho National Lab. The last 2 victims were buried here last week.
@@melissasueh. Sorry, but you clearly know nothing about flying.
The Pilot is by definition the boss! He is trained to and has the license to take the responsibility. I am a private pilot myself. I make it clear to every passenger (as all pilots should do), friend, family, spouse, regardless, that following my instructions is imperative. Someone who messes with that has flown with me for the last time. When I'm out of the airplane in a different surrounding, that's a complete different cup of tea. Ask my wife ;-)
Under the described conditions it was irresponsible even to consider taking into the air. See my comment above.
@@gnufz8623 I know enough about flying that you are the only kind of pilot I would ever want to fly with..you are the boss of the plane and you make the decision if the plane leaves the ground.. your buddies or relatives don't make that decision no matter how much money they have..
The reason the PC-12 has a shaker / pusher system to prevent stalling is it is NOT a forgiving airframe in a stall. Most planes stall in a “docile” manner, in that they’ll push straight over and are easy to recover. Not so the PC-12. For all it’s capabilities and flexibility, the PC-12 does not stall in this manner. It will usually roll heavily. There is footage from the plane’s test phase that shows this roll tendency. I saw it during either my initial or during one of my recurrence training sessions for the PC-12. I strongly suspect that the primary causes of this crash are insufficient clearance of the accumulated icing on the tail plus (potentially given the # of passengers) being at or slightly over takeoff weight. Both contributing to the stall.
Another example of a wealthy (or deeply in debt) pilot on what appears to be a schedule they are not willing to accept changes to and died as a result.
A good friend who is a retired AF pilot and commercial pilot (Citation) once told me "if you are flying a private airplane and the weather turns bad, you have to be willing to delay your return or take commercial airline flight to get somewhere on time" That appears to be relevant in this case.
Yeah, unlike MCAS, two separate systems must agree before the stick pusher shoves the nose down.
At least they’re fixing it but way too late. Horrible design.
MCAS has only one sensor! No crosscheck between computers!
I've left my airplane several hundred miles away because I couldn't get the wings clear without risking damage to them. Very annoying, but it was so cold there was no chance of the sun melting it.
And some day I'll get Juan to say '14 CFR part 91" as "FAR 91" was absorbed into the Code of Federal Regulations more than a decade ago! (Certification is my day job.)
Happy Hanukkah Juan
Thanks for this update
I flew in this plane a couple of times a few years ago. Very nice experience for me. Great family, a big loss.
Oh yeah, and merry Christmas sport to yourself, your family and your neighbours. It’s currently around 40C here and everything seems to be on fire.
While this was of course a TERRIBLE tragedy, I thought that your description of this accident was handled with compassion and respect.
As an aside, I really do enjoy your descriptions of different airplanes.
From a former SSgt
379th Bomb Wing (Heavy)
Strategic Air Command
USAF 1968-1972
Thanks Clem!
Brilliant explanation
thanks Juan Browne!!!
I was waiting for the words ASYMMETRICAL THRUST and also SPIRAL AIRFLOW.. Both components of a propeller... even on a Luscombe.. Thanks Juan!!
Thank you so much for a very complete, thorough and professional update on the accident. Listening to this channel has helped me to become a much more educated and informed pilot myself. I really appreciate this channel.
Thanks Steven!
Merry Christmas to you and your family....................
I understand it is hard to report on these things, but thanks for doing it. Pilots and everyone else should understand what has happened.
2 computers have to agree to activate the stick pusher huh. Maybe Boeing need to take some notes?
The Max does use multiple computers too. Unfortunately, they relied on data from non-redundant sensors for angle of attack.
*THREE HOURS* removing ice?
_NOT good...._
Interestingly, it was at Grass Valley airport where I learned my own personal lesson about de-icing in 1974. Day after Christmas, Cherokee 180 had ice and snow when we got to the ramp to go home to Marin Co. We cleaned the heck out of it, and after takeoff I went to use the elevator trim and it was frozen solid. I had to apply about 40-60 lbs of pressure till after being able to descend and warming air melted it.