Well you cant say just "cleaning" I used a wet wipe or water on a Qtip to clean cards all the time. It's amazing how much dirt and gunk comes off cards. I think cleaning is okay but using harsh chemicals to remove scratches is not okay.
I defined "cleaning" at the beginning of the video based on how it's currently being used. I agree with you though, and think I mentioned that in the video . . . using a fingernail to remove a speck of dirt on the surface (or a Qtip) is fine, in my opinion. As long as the card isn't physically or chemically altered. Most "cleaning" advocates are actually removing surface gloss and/or adding filler to surface imperfections.
I personally would never want to purchase a card that has been trimmed, inked, polished, or had any type of chemical applied to it. If I was sold a card that had been altered in any of these ways and that information was not disclosed, I would be very upset. Great video, Sir!
Agreed, the unfortunate thing is that it's difficult to identify. Grading companies are just starting to invest in technology and procedures to identify it.
Agree on most of the comparisons but definitely not on regrading. Grading companies get grades wrong all the time, and there’s nothing wrong with trying for a better grade.
I’m not opposed to regrading entirely, just when a card is resubmitted over and over again. They are some high profile cards that were sent in a dozen or more times hoping to sneak through. Mistakes happen, but there is a point where the intention shifts from correcting a mistake to hoping to capitalize on one.
yea i can understand trimming, inking, or even polishing being a problem, but I personally don't see anything wrong with like applying a LITERAL cleaning spray to a card to remove grimey surface dinge or the previous owners greasy fingerprints.
I guess that would depend on the chemicals. As I mentioned in the video, using a fingernail or moist Q-tip to gently remove a speck of dirt from the surface without altering/treating the actual surface is different than the soaking and polishing addressed in this video.
i agree. the only people i've ever met who want to alter their cards are sellers. I have never met a collector who actually wants an altered card in their personal collection.
I encourage you to try out Kurt's product to form a better opinion of it if you haven't already. Some of the stuff said like it "filling in scratches" is just inaccurate. I've tried it out myself and found it unable to remove scratches on Holos. The products are pretty poor at getting rid of damage but pretty good at getting rid of stuff that was added to the card that shouldn't be there.
It's refreshing to find someone reasonable here. From my experience it removes small surface scratches by helping to condition the plastic coating on the card. It doesn't "fill in" scratches and it certainly doesn't remove deeper scratches. The polish/spray is applied to the card for less than 30 seconds before wiping it off. I would be genuinely shocked if there are any long term effects or if a grading company is ever able to detect it. We should be encouraging products like these to be well tested and researched, not trying to shame people for creating it.
If a grading company can’t tell, I don’t have an issue with it. The art world doesn’t have the same dilemma when pieces are cleaned or even restored. Sure the value may increase, but the card is preserved in a better condition. However, that’s where my ethical line gets drawn. Trimming is very unethical and inking is almost just as bad.
Card care is prohibited by grading card companies as its considered altering. This isn't controversial, its 100% accurate. They are disguising surface scratches (aka damage) on the card. To such a degree they are following or tricking the grading companies. If the grading company finds this out, the cert will be deactivated. Some area of blame here on the grading companies for not being able to detect this. Though we should still be protected by their guarantee. None-the-less the policy is clear, and submiting cards after doing this is a form of deceit with an intent for financial fraud. For example if you were to take a Base Set First Edition Charizard and disguise & hide the surface scratches to have that card pass as a PSA 10 and receive payment based off a PSA 10.. but then if the card is submitted to a company with higher quality scans like TAG and its determined to be "Authentically Altered" as opposed to a 10. The card goes from being worth 100k + to far far less. Its high end fraud, no different than making fake heirlooms or historical pieces or relics.
So let me ask because I’m back and forth on this… if you have a binder dent but can remove it by pressing the card to the point where you can’t tell it ever existed, is that really a bad thing? Polishing I get but to be fair there is no evidence it “damages cards”. A lot of people like to say it does because they think it’s altering. If it makes your card look nicer I’m not sure I mind so much. You may even have a polished card and not realize. If grading companies can’t see a difference then maybe it’s not worth being too concerned.
I realize the first example is a hypothetical, but I don’t think a binder dent could be truly pressed out (at least not “dents” I’ve seen). Holo cards tend to curve over time if not stored properly, so that example makes more sense to me. The card curvature doesn’t bend, dent, or crease the card, so I wouldn’t consider that damage or altering if one were to flatten them with a top loader or a heavy book. As for polishing, I think it’s reasonable to assume it does “damage” cards. Polish acts as an abrasive, smoothing/sanding a surface and filling the micro-scratches. Personally, I’d call that damage. Moreover, since their is no way to attain evidence on its long-term effects , I’d prefer to err on the side of not using chemicals on cards. Again, just my opinion. I don’t expect everyone to agree me.
My question still is, how is this altering? Is it altering when someone cleans and preserves a painting? How is it deceptive? From a technical standpoint, isn't EVERYTHING that happens to a card after it comes out of a pack "altering?" (Eg. Creases, scratches, etc).
A painting is usually a one of a kind piece, not a mass-produced collectible. Even then, restoration of old paintings is intended to be as minimally invasive as possible to preserve the piece. The process is also carried out and documented by experts, so everyone knows what restorations were completed and the credentials of the individual/organization involved. This isn’t the case with card cleaning. Individuals aren’t preserving a one of a kind piece or disclosing their alterations. They are done in secret, by novices, with unvetted chemicals/substances, with the intention on concealing damage to sell for more money. The two aren’t comparable in my opinion.
To your second question I would highlight the distinction in this manner. Non-factory wear (scratches, creases, etc.) is “damage”. The concealment of damage through physical or chemical means is “altering”. Usually, only the latter is intentional, though I guess people could damage a card on purpose.
I agree. The long-term effects of using chemicals for card altering remain uncertain, and the producers of these chemicals often lack rigorous testing. Additionally, there's a lack of demonstrated experience in ensuring material/chemical compatibility. Instead, some claim their products are made with 'natural' ingredients, but as we've seen with substances like arsenic, 'natural' doesn't always equate to safety. It's frustrating as a collector to have to navigate these concerns, making purchasing cards more challenging.
"Natural Ingredients" is another logical fallacy (glittering generalities). Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's not corrosive, poisonous, or harmful in some way. It sounds good in marketing though!
I think the best point being made is the one concerning unknown lasting effects of the cleaning chemicals. I do agree that if a seller cleans a card using chemicals, they should definitely disclose that as a Buyer Beware courtesy. After that, though, eh... I think if you were rough with your cards when you were twelve, but now as an adult you know how to reverse that damage, more power to you...! Man, if I knew how to clean my cards, not even any ones that I'd sell, in a way that wouldn't risk damaging them, I definitely would to get them back to their original luster again...!
I want to add some nuance to your definition of physical change: It does not remove or undo something about the original card that changed. ie: damage, but not dirt (dirt was not part of the original card). I gotta agree with you and others: We're not talking about a piece of history, which only exists for efforts to preserve it, or a tool utilized like a jacket or car (non-collectible). I personally have restored a card or two by myself, but I plan never to sell them. I blacken the edges of my mtg land collection, and have cleared scratches from my binder cards (maybe). (which doesn't work so well in my experience.) BUT I AM DECEIVING myself, aren't I? I can't claim it's a NM card. I'm not in the habit of lying to myself, but it does allow the card to look better in a collection, while I'm also diminishing the value.
I agree with a lot of your points, however I disagree with resubmitting the same card. The 3rd party appraiser is given the same card with the same set of circumstance to grade the card as is. The fact their opinion is different ( from another in their org) or changes is not the same as ommiting information. the humans appraising can make mistakes both up and down the grade. If the card was not in a condition to get the higher grade then the onus is on the grader to not give it. This approach substantiate their "qualified opinion" on grades rather than taking it away. And I believe this is the better approach. otherwise we go into spiral where 3rd party grading has no merit.
This type of alteration of cards isn't really a new phenomenon. They used to call it card doctoring years ago. Certain individuals in the past were caught altering expensive vintage sports cards, sending the altered cards into PSA and then selling them. The individuals along with PSA were investigated by the FBI for fraud. One individual was charged for fraud and PSA was found to be uninvolved with the incident from memory.
I think that was a good trimming scandal . . . most people agree that card trimming is deceptive, but using chemicals and polish seems to be much more widely accepted by a segment of the hobby.
@@pokemon_classics It was more than trimming that was going on with sports cards back then. Much like today PSA and the other grading companies couldn't detect the chemicals the card doctors were using. Yep I am against the use of polish, chemicals or any type of alterations with Pokemon cards. For cleaning all you need is a tiny dab of water on a cotton tip or on a micro fiber cloth. I have done this to remove black spot from purchased cards and finger prints off of purchased cards in the past. I usually disclose to potential buyers if I have cleaned cards with some water if I ever decide to sell any cards I have cleaned. Most of the cards I have cleaned have stayed in the personal collection though as I rarely ever sell cards I have bought.
I use a cotton swab & filtered water in a bottle cap & a microfiber cloth to clean. I do not alter the card. I do not resell. I just clean what I collect. Great video and knowledge for new collectors
Hmm, this is an interesting subject and I have to say I personally see no difference between card ‘cleaning’ to comic book cleaning/ pressing. When we grade, be it a comic book or trading card, we want to present that card / comic in its absolute best form. Now of course trimming / dyeing etc. is all a big no no and clearly deceptive, but cleaning with non-chemical (I say non chemical as all of the cleaning products I have seen thus far have been of natural origin) surely have the card presentation at its core, not profit etc. Now on the other hand professionals have been cleaning and pressing comic books for years, whereas (in my experience at least) card ‘cleaning’ seems to be a relatively new concept. I guess ultimately it’s all down to personal preference but I don’t think we should tar and feather card cleaners just yet.
I think people mostly feel a sense of jeliousy or unfairness. That graders can make money easier getting 10s on cards that wouldnt have originally been 10s, and that makes them madder than the actual "im concerned about the longevity" statments. Im pretty certain shoe polish is harmless, but even if you end up with a faded card with a hole burnt in the middle, 20 years from now, that responsibility will be on PSA. They refund any damaged cards or mistakes that happen that tend to be on their end and slipped through. Not to mention the buyer would have years to sell it before any noticible damage took over. Im pretty sure the sports card world has been doing this for decades and ive never seen an old cert psa slab from the 90s where the card just turned to goo or whatever🤷♂️
Big words you are missing in your statement are 'Alteration' and 'Deception' and if you cannot grasp the meaning of those terms you will never understand. Just imagine you had the money to invest on a 1st edition base zard that you then find out was previously a PSA 8 cracked and resubmitted and became a PSA 10 because someone managed to disguise the scratches on the holo and a mark on the back of the card. Would you personally be happy with that purchase and say yes this is worth what I paid even with that knowledge? Then if want to contest with PSA you have to prove that to be the case to even have a shot at any possibility of a refund and you may find in 15-20 years PSA have gone out of business 🤷 then what? All whilst the rest of the Pokémon community would shun that card as altered. I would bet my life that none of these guys that polish cards would ever buy a PSA 10 with the knowledge it was polished.
@@ladsndadsgaming4605 if i bought a card that was graded, i would be buying it for the opinion of the 3rd party grading and authetication. If PSA encases it as a psa 10, it IS now a PSA 10. Polish, or no polish. PSA decided to say it is an authentic, unaltered, gem mint card. That is its new form, according to the 3rd party, reguardless of its past life and the market will value it as such. If it was a 200k card, yeah i guess i would be bothered if there was a hidden scratch, but that happens reguardless. Its still a PSA 10 and if you wont value it as such, someone else will.
@@Reds-Card-Case did you read anything I wrote? Or anything that has been spoken on the subject in this video or any genuine collector because it does not seem to compute in your mind. You do seem like you almost understand but you don't want to. The card is altered. Your buying the grade until people find out the card was altered and then the grade is literally worthless. It is why PSA are deactivating certs on cards. Yes they have to carry the bag if it is discovered but the fact is, your doing exactly what is talked about here. Your trying to legitimise alteration because PSA didn't spot it. But if they find out they will deactivate the cert and that 10 becomes worthless in its current form. I don't understand why that is hard for people to understand. It is actually explained very very well in this video if you listen to it. And as I stated that guarantee is only whilst PSA is even in business. And then a bigger better company in 15-20 years time can detect these alterations? The deception is passing that to the buyer without disclosure and no genuine collector will touch these if it is disclosed
@@ladsndadsgaming4605 so lets think here for a minute. You buy a slab on auction. Its got a light scratch on the back. Thats PSA's fault for missing the scratch, or they decided to pass it anyways. How would you even go about asserting it was polished to begin with? Even if you have a gut feeling for some unprovable reason, PSA disagrees with you, and its there opion you paid for and was sold. And theres no chain of custody to prove that any ebay seller graded the card themselfs, or polished the card themselfs. If the only evidence that polishing produces, is a card that looks better, then its virtually unprovable. And what your refering to is a risk that is accepted by all consumers when they participate in a certain brand. What if PSA goes out of buisness and their slabs peel apart? What if you buy a washing machine and they go bankrupt and cant honor their warrenty? These things arn't real arguments for or against polishing, its a generalized risk assosiated with participating in any one product or brand. Would it be better if none of this ever existed and this never became a topic? Maybe. You can go way back on E4 and years ago on forums where people have tried everything imaginable to remove scratches or make things shinier, including salami, toothpaste, vaseline, ect. Its wild, but its just the nature of the way things have always worked around here when moneys involved. My suggestion? Only buy and grade modern cards and you wont have to worry so much.
@@Reds-Card-Case your are quite literally the point of the entire video. It's not a washing machine it is a collectable. And the fact the community as a majority would consider a card altered (even yourself, you would value a card a lower value if it was altered) if it has had a foreign substance added to it is exactly the point. It is altered. It is deception when not disclosed. It is a banned practice at the any and all of the professional graders. It is still authentic. It has a lower value if known to be altered. Just because they cannot detect it now does not mean they will not be able to at a later date. I have argued that the substances used might actually be somewhat similar to what the cards are protected with at the factory and maybe the reason it's so hard to detect. A lot of things are protected with high grade food wax which I suppose this Kurt's card care actually is. The point is nobody knows and it should be disclosed. If not it's deception simple as that. It is done to make money and unwilling victims of that are left holding the bag because it not worth what they paid for it. It is not a washing machine and it not a car.
you are absolutely right. this is a dishonest practice and directly comparable to trimming, inking, and fakes. anybody who thinks otherwise is lying to you or themselves. also, all you people with the collectible cars vs collectible cards argument get out of here. they are not comparable. full stop.
I agree with you that from an integrity standpoint, disclosure is key. However, the card cleaning and polish are utilizing the outer sealant on the card as a backstop. The fear, as best stated by opossum bud, is what the polish will do to the card in 10 years! Regarding card resubmission, I disagree. If I send a card to Beckett and their hyperfocus on centering gives a perfect card a 9, I’m not doing anything unethical to send it to PSA/CGC. Nor do I see an issue with resubmission of a card. I have seen pack fresh vintage cards get a 7/8. When resubmitted a grader that wasn’t asleep gave it the 10 it deserved.
To clarify, I’m not talking about submitting to another grading company or resubmitted a card that is believed to be misgraded. I’m talking about a card that’s resubmitted a dozen or more times hoping that damage gets overlooked eventually. This has happened with some high profile cards . . . Probably not common or worthwhile for non-grail cards.
Any type of card cleaning is not allowed this goes against PSA polices. This card cleaning kit does not show the ingredients on the bottle & showed not be allowed to be for sale. I've seen on Twitter pictures of before & after card got cleaned the defects do come back. Kurt is banned from PSA & his cards got deactivated. 👍
But art and antiques are also restored all the time. Many big works of art get completely taken apart and are put on new canvases and so on. It’s a common practice, also among collectibles. So your car argument, while different as you say, does also exist within the collectible world.
Also you shouldn’t show the picture of that fresco as the problem there was, that the person hired for the job actual couldn’t paint and was just not able to recreate what she was there for.
Ya, that picture wasn’t supposed to be there. I originally had it on the project timeline for a different point that I cut for time and didn’t realize it was still there. I made a point about artwork using restoration as a sort of last resort to preserve one of a kind pieces. Even then though, the materials used and the skill set required are crucial and often require extensive expertise and training. I don’t think restoration of a one of kind painting by a licensed professional is the same as a casual collector polishing mass produced cards to sell for more money.
Regrading isn’t inherently wrong as graders do make mistakes many times and remember grading really is just speculation on the grader’s part regarding the condition of the card. There are so many factors that can affect the grade of a card, the grader may be having a bad day or just tired or just don’t even care anymore
So the owner shouldnt improve their cards by cleaning them but the grading companies can use state of the art equipment to grade cards to a standard they couldn’t say 24 years ago. It’s very interesting that you yourself have shown us how low some card populations are low but I suspect they would be even lower if those cards were resubmitted and subjected to modern forensic grading techniques. Art is often restored why is this different?
To your first point, most grading companies aren't using state of the art of the equipment for grading (just human labor); however, even if they were, that point is irrelevant . . . using technology to inspect a card's condition is different than using technology to alter a card's condition. Also, the growth of the population reports on most low population cards has been fairly consistent over the last decade. In fact, many low population cards have grown much more in the last few years; however, there has also been much greater volume sent for grading.
To your second point, a painting is usually a one of a kind piece, not a mass-produced collectible. Even then, restoration of old paintings is intended to be as minimally invasive as possible to preserve the piece. The process is also carried out and documented by experts, so everyone knows what restorations were completed and the credentials of the individual/organization involved. This isn’t the case with card cleaning. Individuals aren’t preserving a one of a kind piece or disclosing their alterations. They are done in secret, by novices, with unvetted chemicals/substances, with the intention on concealing damage to sell for more money. The two aren’t comparable in my opinion.
@@pokemon_classics surely wiping a fingerprint from a card is minimally invasive considering that is known to be something that can result in a lower grade.
@@gerarddowd318 Wiping a fingerprint away doesn't require chemicals or polish, which is the whole point of this video and the definition of "card cleaning" currently being used by its proponents. Using chemical cleaners and polish, which sand and fill surface inconsistencies on a micro-scale physically alters the card and risks potential long-term effects. It seems disingenuous to compare that to wiping a fingerprint off a card . . . it strikes me as a attempt to justify something much more deceptive and controversial.
I wouldn’t call cleaning a card deceptive. We’ve all tried that. Using oils and brushes and things these professional cleaners use is a bit dodgy but grading should pick up chemicals used on cards
100% agree that the purpose behind this is generally deceptive for profit. I would not want a restored card, especially were it not to be disclosed to me before buying the card.
This seems like a waste of time to talk about. In a sense, they are restoring a collectible item. Every hobby had a restoration side of it. Shoes, cars, firearms, etc. Ps, I never have restored a card, but I also don’t see the harm in it
So if I have a collectable classic car, and I polish the original paint , it is now altered and damaged? Doesn’t make sense. Not manipulation to polish a collectible car or card.
@@Candyman2020_ We can all polish a piece of s*** but if the s*** is Art and in it's natural form and all its beauty then why touch it? The One thing humans will never get.
Logical fallacy: false analogy. Car polish is a mildly abrasive chemical formula that removes a thin layer of a car's clear coat to smooth out scratches and imperfections. Question: Does a car or a Pokemon card have a thicker clear coat? Which one is specifically engineered to withstand the harsh extremities of outdoor weather and washing? Finally, does a car derive its entire value from it's surface gloss/condition (like a card) or is that a small sub-component of what makes a car collectible?
How you could defend card altering, and compare it to something that's completely not comparable to it to try to prove a point, makes absolutely no sense. Cards that have scratches/damage is why the better condition cards have a premium value. No one really knew these cards would be worth what they are today. Were you in favor of altering when these cards had little value?
@@pokemon_classics card polish is the same as car polish as you first state. You could easily argue that trading cards are made with a durable coating since they are meant to be played with. You know the cards are decently durable. Of course, both items derive value from their original material being in clean new looking condition. A card’s entire value is not in condition, rarity, scarcity, signatures, playability , and more. Everything that you are arguing is subjective. You have to acknowledge that some people feel the surface of a collectible card is exactly the same as the surface of a collectible car. You can’t just yell logical fallacy if you disagree with someone’s view on that.
There's an understanding when purchasing a car that people will take care of that paint and polishing is a common practice in the car industry. That same understanding doesn't apply to cards. My lcs doesnt supply card polishing kits as its not a common or ethical practice in this industry. Just like cleaning and polishing an old rare coin causes it to lose value same applies here.
Because in 4/5 years you could look at the graded 9 card you bought that was cleaned and the scratches and stains have reappeared and now it looks like a 6. Or even possibly worse, the cleaning solution has bleached or damaged the card in some other way. I guess if you are a flipper/seller you won’t care but if you are a collector it would suck.
I own no polished cards but to play devils advocate what if in 6 years the card still looks the same? I have cards that look like 6’s because psa changed grading standards too. I don’t think polishing is as magical as people make it seem honestly. Pretty sure it can’t undo a scratch, just remove dirt like a spit shine.
It depends on how deep the scratch is. Polish is an abrasive that sands, smooths, and fills on a really small scale. It’s possible to get some scratches filled, while others are deeper and too far into the card’s surface layer to address.
@@pokemon_classics I'm not sure there is abrasiveness to this polish as such. I have asked and asked and nobody seems to be able to answer. But I assume it's a wax. A high grade food wax that Kurt mixes himself without any added perfumes or chemical additive. Possibly why he claims he is applying for a patent. Because he believes it is unique but I would highly doubt it is. It fills in scratches on the protective layer of the card and then dries clear. I actually would assume in that regard that it would not damage the card in any way even over time. And my assumption would be that it is a very similar substance to that used to coat the card at the factory and is why it is so hard to detect under minimal microscope. Does not detract from the alteration side of the argument. I have not tested it plainly because I refuse to put money in Kurt's pocket but I I would be interested if anyone knows or has tested that theory. The spray is likely some form of alcohol spray and would evaporate almost instantly and shouldn't damage the card long term but again as Kurt won't disclose it nobody knows. People have been using windex for years to clean cards.
Well you cant say just "cleaning" I used a wet wipe or water on a Qtip to clean cards all the time. It's amazing how much dirt and gunk comes off cards. I think cleaning is okay but using harsh chemicals to remove scratches is not okay.
I defined "cleaning" at the beginning of the video based on how it's currently being used. I agree with you though, and think I mentioned that in the video . . . using a fingernail to remove a speck of dirt on the surface (or a Qtip) is fine, in my opinion. As long as the card isn't physically or chemically altered. Most "cleaning" advocates are actually removing surface gloss and/or adding filler to surface imperfections.
I personally would never want to purchase a card that has been trimmed, inked, polished, or had any type of chemical applied to it. If I was sold a card that had been altered in any of these ways and that information was not disclosed, I would be very upset.
Great video, Sir!
Agreed, the unfortunate thing is that it's difficult to identify. Grading companies are just starting to invest in technology and procedures to identify it.
Agree on most of the comparisons but definitely not on regrading. Grading companies get grades wrong all the time, and there’s nothing wrong with trying for a better grade.
I’m not opposed to regrading entirely, just when a card is resubmitted over and over again. They are some high profile cards that were sent in a dozen or more times hoping to sneak through. Mistakes happen, but there is a point where the intention shifts from correcting a mistake to hoping to capitalize on one.
yea i can understand trimming, inking, or even polishing being a problem, but I personally don't see anything wrong with like applying a LITERAL cleaning spray to a card to remove grimey surface dinge or the previous owners greasy fingerprints.
I guess that would depend on the chemicals. As I mentioned in the video, using a fingernail or moist Q-tip to gently remove a speck of dirt from the surface without altering/treating the actual surface is different than the soaking and polishing addressed in this video.
i agree. the only people i've ever met who want to alter their cards are sellers. I have never met a collector who actually wants an altered card in their personal collection.
Clearly you are anti-social or a loner and should get out more. 😂😂😂
I encourage you to try out Kurt's product to form a better opinion of it if you haven't already. Some of the stuff said like it "filling in scratches" is just inaccurate. I've tried it out myself and found it unable to remove scratches on Holos. The products are pretty poor at getting rid of damage but pretty good at getting rid of stuff that was added to the card that shouldn't be there.
It's refreshing to find someone reasonable here. From my experience it removes small surface scratches by helping to condition the plastic coating on the card. It doesn't "fill in" scratches and it certainly doesn't remove deeper scratches. The polish/spray is applied to the card for less than 30 seconds before wiping it off. I would be genuinely shocked if there are any long term effects or if a grading company is ever able to detect it. We should be encouraging products like these to be well tested and researched, not trying to shame people for creating it.
If a grading company can’t tell, I don’t have an issue with it. The art world doesn’t have the same dilemma when pieces are cleaned or even restored. Sure the value may increase, but the card is preserved in a better condition.
However, that’s where my ethical line gets drawn. Trimming is very unethical and inking is almost just as bad.
Card care is prohibited by grading card companies as its considered altering.
This isn't controversial, its 100% accurate.
They are disguising surface scratches (aka damage) on the card. To such a degree they are following or tricking the grading companies.
If the grading company finds this out, the cert will be deactivated.
Some area of blame here on the grading companies for not being able to detect this. Though we should still be protected by their guarantee.
None-the-less the policy is clear, and submiting cards after doing this is a form of deceit with an intent for financial fraud.
For example if you were to take a Base Set First Edition Charizard and disguise & hide the surface scratches to have that card pass as a PSA 10 and receive payment based off a PSA 10.. but then if the card is submitted to a company with higher quality scans like TAG and its determined to be "Authentically Altered" as opposed to a 10. The card goes from being worth 100k + to far far less.
Its high end fraud, no different than making fake heirlooms or historical pieces or relics.
So let me ask because I’m back and forth on this… if you have a binder dent but can remove it by pressing the card to the point where you can’t tell it ever existed, is that really a bad thing?
Polishing I get but to be fair there is no evidence it “damages cards”. A lot of people like to say it does because they think it’s altering. If it makes your card look nicer I’m not sure I mind so much. You may even have a polished card and not realize. If grading companies can’t see a difference then maybe it’s not worth being too concerned.
I realize the first example is a hypothetical, but I don’t think a binder dent could be truly pressed out (at least not “dents” I’ve seen). Holo cards tend to curve over time if not stored properly, so that example makes more sense to me. The card curvature doesn’t bend, dent, or crease the card, so I wouldn’t consider that damage or altering if one were to flatten them with a top loader or a heavy book. As for polishing, I think it’s reasonable to assume it does “damage” cards. Polish acts as an abrasive, smoothing/sanding a surface and filling the micro-scratches. Personally, I’d call that damage. Moreover, since their is no way to attain evidence on its long-term effects , I’d prefer to err on the side of not using chemicals on cards. Again, just my opinion. I don’t expect everyone to agree me.
My question still is, how is this altering? Is it altering when someone cleans and preserves a painting? How is it deceptive? From a technical standpoint, isn't EVERYTHING that happens to a card after it comes out of a pack "altering?" (Eg. Creases, scratches, etc).
A painting is usually a one of a kind piece, not a mass-produced collectible. Even then, restoration of old paintings is intended to be as minimally invasive as possible to preserve the piece. The process is also carried out and documented by experts, so everyone knows what restorations were completed and the credentials of the individual/organization involved. This isn’t the case with card cleaning. Individuals aren’t preserving a one of a kind piece or disclosing their alterations. They are done in secret, by novices, with unvetted chemicals/substances, with the intention on concealing damage to sell for more money. The two aren’t comparable in my opinion.
To your second question I would highlight the distinction in this manner. Non-factory wear (scratches, creases, etc.) is “damage”. The concealment of damage through physical or chemical means is “altering”. Usually, only the latter is intentional, though I guess people could damage a card on purpose.
I agree. The long-term effects of using chemicals for card altering remain uncertain, and the producers of these chemicals often lack rigorous testing. Additionally, there's a lack of demonstrated experience in ensuring material/chemical compatibility. Instead, some claim their products are made with 'natural' ingredients, but as we've seen with substances like arsenic, 'natural' doesn't always equate to safety. It's frustrating as a collector to have to navigate these concerns, making purchasing cards more challenging.
"Natural Ingredients" is another logical fallacy (glittering generalities). Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's not corrosive, poisonous, or harmful in some way. It sounds good in marketing though!
This is the key for me. I would be petrified that 10 years later the card will be damaged.
Question is can psa detect a restored card with that kit ?
I think the best point being made is the one concerning unknown lasting effects of the cleaning chemicals. I do agree that if a seller cleans a card using chemicals, they should definitely disclose that as a Buyer Beware courtesy.
After that, though, eh... I think if you were rough with your cards when you were twelve, but now as an adult you know how to reverse that damage, more power to you...!
Man, if I knew how to clean my cards, not even any ones that I'd sell, in a way that wouldn't risk damaging them, I definitely would to get them back to their original luster again...!
Hello could you pleas help identify whether my sylveon GX is a Misprint or not @Pokemon Classics
I want to add some nuance to your definition of physical change: It does not remove or undo something about the original card that changed. ie: damage, but not dirt (dirt was not part of the original card).
I gotta agree with you and others: We're not talking about a piece of history, which only exists for efforts to preserve it, or a tool utilized like a jacket or car (non-collectible). I personally have restored a card or two by myself, but I plan never to sell them. I blacken the edges of my mtg land collection, and have cleared scratches from my binder cards (maybe). (which doesn't work so well in my experience.)
BUT I AM DECEIVING myself, aren't I? I can't claim it's a NM card. I'm not in the habit of lying to myself, but it does allow the card to look better in a collection, while I'm also diminishing the value.
I agree with a lot of your points, however I disagree with resubmitting the same card.
The 3rd party appraiser is given the same card with the same set of circumstance to grade the card as is. The fact their opinion is different ( from another in their org) or changes is not the same as ommiting information.
the humans appraising can make mistakes both up and down the grade.
If the card was not in a condition to get the higher grade then the onus is on the grader to not give it. This approach substantiate their "qualified opinion" on grades rather than taking it away. And I believe this is the better approach. otherwise we go into spiral where 3rd party grading has no merit.
This type of alteration of cards isn't really a new phenomenon. They used to call it card doctoring years ago. Certain individuals in the past were caught altering expensive vintage sports cards, sending the altered cards into PSA and then selling them. The individuals along with PSA were investigated by the FBI for fraud. One individual was charged for fraud and PSA was found to be uninvolved with the incident from memory.
I think that was a good trimming scandal . . . most people agree that card trimming is deceptive, but using chemicals and polish seems to be much more widely accepted by a segment of the hobby.
@@pokemon_classics It was more than trimming that was going on with sports cards back then. Much like today PSA and the other grading companies couldn't detect the chemicals the card doctors were using.
Yep I am against the use of polish, chemicals or any type of alterations with Pokemon cards.
For cleaning all you need is a tiny dab of water on a cotton tip or on a micro fiber cloth. I have done this to remove black spot from purchased cards and finger prints off of purchased cards in the past. I usually disclose to potential buyers if I have cleaned cards with some water if I ever decide to sell any cards I have cleaned. Most of the cards I have cleaned have stayed in the personal collection though as I rarely ever sell cards I have bought.
I use a cotton swab & filtered water in a bottle cap & a microfiber cloth to clean. I do not alter the card. I do not resell. I just clean what I collect. Great video and knowledge for new collectors
Hmm, this is an interesting subject and I have to say I personally see no difference between card ‘cleaning’ to comic book cleaning/ pressing.
When we grade, be it a comic book or trading card, we want to present that card / comic in its absolute best form. Now of course trimming / dyeing etc. is all a big no no and clearly deceptive, but cleaning with non-chemical (I say non chemical as all of the cleaning products I have seen thus far have been of natural origin) surely have the card presentation at its core, not profit etc.
Now on the other hand professionals have been cleaning and pressing comic books for years, whereas (in my experience at least) card ‘cleaning’ seems to be a relatively new concept.
I guess ultimately it’s all down to personal preference but I don’t think we should tar and feather card cleaners just yet.
I think people mostly feel a sense of jeliousy or unfairness. That graders can make money easier getting 10s on cards that wouldnt have originally been 10s, and that makes them madder than the actual "im concerned about the longevity" statments. Im pretty certain shoe polish is harmless, but even if you end up with a faded card with a hole burnt in the middle, 20 years from now, that responsibility will be on PSA. They refund any damaged cards or mistakes that happen that tend to be on their end and slipped through. Not to mention the buyer would have years to sell it before any noticible damage took over. Im pretty sure the sports card world has been doing this for decades and ive never seen an old cert psa slab from the 90s where the card just turned to goo or whatever🤷♂️
Big words you are missing in your statement are 'Alteration' and 'Deception' and if you cannot grasp the meaning of those terms you will never understand.
Just imagine you had the money to invest on a 1st edition base zard that you then find out was previously a PSA 8 cracked and resubmitted and became a PSA 10 because someone managed to disguise the scratches on the holo and a mark on the back of the card. Would you personally be happy with that purchase and say yes this is worth what I paid even with that knowledge?
Then if want to contest with PSA you have to prove that to be the case to even have a shot at any possibility of a refund and you may find in 15-20 years PSA have gone out of business 🤷 then what? All whilst the rest of the Pokémon community would shun that card as altered.
I would bet my life that none of these guys that polish cards would ever buy a PSA 10 with the knowledge it was polished.
@@ladsndadsgaming4605 if i bought a card that was graded, i would be buying it for the opinion of the 3rd party grading and authetication. If PSA encases it as a psa 10, it IS now a PSA 10. Polish, or no polish. PSA decided to say it is an authentic, unaltered, gem mint card. That is its new form, according to the 3rd party, reguardless of its past life and the market will value it as such. If it was a 200k card, yeah i guess i would be bothered if there was a hidden scratch, but that happens reguardless. Its still a PSA 10 and if you wont value it as such, someone else will.
@@Reds-Card-Case did you read anything I wrote? Or anything that has been spoken on the subject in this video or any genuine collector because it does not seem to compute in your mind.
You do seem like you almost understand but you don't want to.
The card is altered. Your buying the grade until people find out the card was altered and then the grade is literally worthless. It is why PSA are deactivating certs on cards. Yes they have to carry the bag if it is discovered but the fact is, your doing exactly what is talked about here. Your trying to legitimise alteration because PSA didn't spot it. But if they find out they will deactivate the cert and that 10 becomes worthless in its current form.
I don't understand why that is hard for people to understand. It is actually explained very very well in this video if you listen to it.
And as I stated that guarantee is only whilst PSA is even in business. And then a bigger better company in 15-20 years time can detect these alterations?
The deception is passing that to the buyer without disclosure and no genuine collector will touch these if it is disclosed
@@ladsndadsgaming4605 so lets think here for a minute. You buy a slab on auction. Its got a light scratch on the back. Thats PSA's fault for missing the scratch, or they decided to pass it anyways. How would you even go about asserting it was polished to begin with? Even if you have a gut feeling for some unprovable reason, PSA disagrees with you, and its there opion you paid for and was sold. And theres no chain of custody to prove that any ebay seller graded the card themselfs, or polished the card themselfs. If the only evidence that polishing produces, is a card that looks better, then its virtually unprovable. And what your refering to is a risk that is accepted by all consumers when they participate in a certain brand. What if PSA goes out of buisness and their slabs peel apart? What if you buy a washing machine and they go bankrupt and cant honor their warrenty? These things arn't real arguments for or against polishing, its a generalized risk assosiated with participating in any one product or brand. Would it be better if none of this ever existed and this never became a topic? Maybe. You can go way back on E4 and years ago on forums where people have tried everything imaginable to remove scratches or make things shinier, including salami, toothpaste, vaseline, ect. Its wild, but its just the nature of the way things have always worked around here when moneys involved. My suggestion? Only buy and grade modern cards and you wont have to worry so much.
@@Reds-Card-Case your are quite literally the point of the entire video.
It's not a washing machine it is a collectable. And the fact the community as a majority would consider a card altered (even yourself, you would value a card a lower value if it was altered) if it has had a foreign substance added to it is exactly the point.
It is altered. It is deception when not disclosed. It is a banned practice at the any and all of the professional graders. It is still authentic. It has a lower value if known to be altered. Just because they cannot detect it now does not mean they will not be able to at a later date.
I have argued that the substances used might actually be somewhat similar to what the cards are protected with at the factory and maybe the reason it's so hard to detect. A lot of things are protected with high grade food wax which I suppose this Kurt's card care actually is.
The point is nobody knows and it should be disclosed. If not it's deception simple as that. It is done to make money and unwilling victims of that are left holding the bag because it not worth what they paid for it.
It is not a washing machine and it not a car.
you are absolutely right. this is a dishonest practice and directly comparable to trimming, inking, and fakes. anybody who thinks otherwise is lying to you or themselves. also, all you people with the collectible cars vs collectible cards argument get out of here. they are not comparable. full stop.
I agree with you that from an integrity standpoint, disclosure is key. However, the card cleaning and polish are utilizing the outer sealant on the card as a backstop. The fear, as best stated by opossum bud, is what the polish will do to the card in 10 years!
Regarding card resubmission, I disagree. If I send a card to Beckett and their hyperfocus on centering gives a perfect card a 9, I’m not doing anything unethical to send it to PSA/CGC. Nor do I see an issue with resubmission of a card. I have seen pack fresh vintage cards get a 7/8. When resubmitted a grader that wasn’t asleep gave it the 10 it deserved.
To clarify, I’m not talking about submitting to another grading company or resubmitted a card that is believed to be misgraded. I’m talking about a card that’s resubmitted a dozen or more times hoping that damage gets overlooked eventually. This has happened with some high profile cards . . . Probably not common or worthwhile for non-grail cards.
@@pokemon_classics Understood. Important topic to talk about. Thanks for the great video!
Any type of card cleaning is not allowed this goes against PSA polices. This card cleaning kit does not show the ingredients on the bottle & showed not be allowed to be for sale. I've seen on Twitter pictures of before & after card got cleaned the defects do come back. Kurt is banned from PSA & his cards got deactivated. 👍
But art and antiques are also restored all the time. Many big works of art get completely taken apart and are put on new canvases and so on. It’s a common practice, also among collectibles. So your car argument, while different as you say, does also exist within the collectible world.
Also you shouldn’t show the picture of that fresco as the problem there was, that the person hired for the job actual couldn’t paint and was just not able to recreate what she was there for.
Ya, that picture wasn’t supposed to be there. I originally had it on the project timeline for a different point that I cut for time and didn’t realize it was still there. I made a point about artwork using restoration as a sort of last resort to preserve one of a kind pieces. Even then though, the materials used and the skill set required are crucial and often require extensive expertise and training. I don’t think restoration of a one of kind painting by a licensed professional is the same as a casual collector polishing mass produced cards to sell for more money.
Regrading isn’t inherently wrong as graders do make mistakes many times and remember grading really is just speculation on the grader’s part regarding the condition of the card. There are so many factors that can affect the grade of a card, the grader may be having a bad day or just tired or just don’t even care anymore
So the owner shouldnt improve their cards by cleaning them but the grading companies can use state of the art equipment to grade cards to a standard they couldn’t say 24 years ago.
It’s very interesting that you yourself have shown us how low some card populations are low but I suspect they would be even lower if those cards were resubmitted and subjected to modern forensic grading techniques. Art is often restored why is this different?
To your first point, most grading companies aren't using state of the art of the equipment for grading (just human labor); however, even if they were, that point is irrelevant . . . using technology to inspect a card's condition is different than using technology to alter a card's condition. Also, the growth of the population reports on most low population cards has been fairly consistent over the last decade. In fact, many low population cards have grown much more in the last few years; however, there has also been much greater volume sent for grading.
To your second point, a painting is usually a one of a kind piece, not a mass-produced collectible. Even then, restoration of old paintings is intended to be as minimally invasive as possible to preserve the piece. The process is also carried out and documented by experts, so everyone knows what restorations were completed and the credentials of the individual/organization involved. This isn’t the case with card cleaning. Individuals aren’t preserving a one of a kind piece or disclosing their alterations. They are done in secret, by novices, with unvetted chemicals/substances, with the intention on concealing damage to sell for more money. The two aren’t comparable in my opinion.
@@pokemon_classics surely wiping a fingerprint from a card is minimally invasive considering that is known to be something that can result in a lower grade.
@@gerarddowd318 Wiping a fingerprint away doesn't require chemicals or polish, which is the whole point of this video and the definition of "card cleaning" currently being used by its proponents. Using chemical cleaners and polish, which sand and fill surface inconsistencies on a micro-scale physically alters the card and risks potential long-term effects. It seems disingenuous to compare that to wiping a fingerprint off a card . . . it strikes me as a attempt to justify something much more deceptive and controversial.
I wouldn’t call cleaning a card deceptive. We’ve all tried that. Using oils and brushes and things these professional cleaners use is a bit dodgy but grading should pick up chemicals used on cards
100% agree that the purpose behind this is generally deceptive for profit. I would not want a restored card, especially were it not to be disclosed to me before buying the card.
I thought PSA, at least, was starting to catch cards that have been altered and not grading them now?
That is correct, they are in the early phases of technology to help identify chemical residues.
This seems like a waste of time to talk about. In a sense, they are restoring a collectible item. Every hobby had a restoration side of it. Shoes, cars, firearms, etc.
Ps, I never have restored a card, but I also don’t see the harm in it
I just spit on my cards rub it in with my shirt, put the card in my back pocket and I'm good to go! Some things work and some don't lol.
Is the spit-shine one that works or one that doesn't? Maybe chew some mint gum first . . . mint condition. ;)
grading companies have been slacking on this for so long
I just use hot breath and a microfiber cloth to clean any fingerprints or dirt
Very well said and laid out!
Still doesn't compute to the people that don't want to listen just read the comments 🤦
Anyone who uses chemicals to clean a card before selling it is a grub.
Card cleaning is manipulation. No matter what!
So if I have a collectable classic car, and I polish the original paint , it is now altered and damaged? Doesn’t make sense. Not manipulation to polish a collectible car or card.
@@Candyman2020_ We can all polish a piece of s*** but if the s*** is Art and in it's natural form and all its beauty then why touch it? The One thing humans will never get.
thats messed up
I love your channel 🎉❤
Thank you so much! I enjoy making videos and having discussions like this with everyone.
never heard of this before kind of concerning
So if I have a collectable classic car, and I polish the original paint , it is now altered and damaged? Doesn’t make sense.
Logical fallacy: false analogy. Car polish is a mildly abrasive chemical formula that removes a thin layer of a car's clear coat to smooth out scratches and imperfections. Question: Does a car or a Pokemon card have a thicker clear coat? Which one is specifically engineered to withstand the harsh extremities of outdoor weather and washing? Finally, does a car derive its entire value from it's surface gloss/condition (like a card) or is that a small sub-component of what makes a car collectible?
How you could defend card altering, and compare it to something that's completely not comparable to it to try to prove a point, makes absolutely no sense. Cards that have scratches/damage is why the better condition cards have a premium value. No one really knew these cards would be worth what they are today. Were you in favor of altering when these cards had little value?
@@pokemon_classics card polish is the same as car polish as you first state.
You could easily argue that trading cards are made with a durable coating since they are meant to be played with. You know the cards are decently durable.
Of course, both items derive value from their original material being in clean new looking condition.
A card’s entire value is not in condition, rarity, scarcity, signatures, playability , and more. Everything that you are arguing is subjective. You have to acknowledge that some people feel the surface of a collectible card is exactly the same as the surface of a collectible car. You can’t just yell logical fallacy if you disagree with someone’s view on that.
There's an understanding when purchasing a car that people will take care of that paint and polishing is a common practice in the car industry. That same understanding doesn't apply to cards. My lcs doesnt supply card polishing kits as its not a common or ethical practice in this industry. Just like cleaning and polishing an old rare coin causes it to lose value same applies here.
@@Candyman2020_ and sure you can't spell card without car, but they will never be synonyms. There is no carfax for cards.
Homeboy videos are like Ted talks with little research
Found the guy putting Kurt’s juice on his cards.
Lol
Yall a bunch of puzzes. This makes the card better how is it bad
Because in 4/5 years you could look at the graded 9 card you bought that was cleaned and the scratches and stains have reappeared and now it looks like a 6. Or even possibly worse, the cleaning solution has bleached or damaged the card in some other way. I guess if you are a flipper/seller you won’t care but if you are a collector it would suck.
I own no polished cards but to play devils advocate what if in 6 years the card still looks the same? I have cards that look like 6’s because psa changed grading standards too. I don’t think polishing is as magical as people make it seem honestly. Pretty sure it can’t undo a scratch, just remove dirt like a spit shine.
It depends on how deep the scratch is. Polish is an abrasive that sands, smooths, and fills on a really small scale. It’s possible to get some scratches filled, while others are deeper and too far into the card’s surface layer to address.
@@pokemon_classics I'm not sure there is abrasiveness to this polish as such. I have asked and asked and nobody seems to be able to answer. But I assume it's a wax. A high grade food wax that Kurt mixes himself without any added perfumes or chemical additive. Possibly why he claims he is applying for a patent. Because he believes it is unique but I would highly doubt it is. It fills in scratches on the protective layer of the card and then dries clear. I actually would assume in that regard that it would not damage the card in any way even over time. And my assumption would be that it is a very similar substance to that used to coat the card at the factory and is why it is so hard to detect under minimal microscope. Does not detract from the alteration side of the argument.
I have not tested it plainly because I refuse to put money in Kurt's pocket but I I would be interested if anyone knows or has tested that theory. The spray is likely some form of alcohol spray and would evaporate almost instantly and shouldn't damage the card long term but again as Kurt won't disclose it nobody knows. People have been using windex for years to clean cards.