Does beer have terroir?
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- čas přidán 24. 04. 2024
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This week we're taking on the philosophical question of whether beer can have terroir, and if so can we work out where a beer is from by tasting it? The most important question we ask though, is does that matter?
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Brad comparing hops to frozen peas is one of my top Bradisms I've heard in a while.
"Terroir Of The Mind" is the title of my next prog album.
Cheers Brad 😆
Brad was very close to a brilliant Oktoberfest slogan at the start: if it’s not from the wells, you’re not serving hell(e)s!
The word 'quelles' in German means 'sources of water' or 'springs' as well as rhyming with 'helles' so I'm sure you could do something with that.
The first thing I thought when I saw this is I agree 99.99% of the time but one of the exceptions is the truly elite estate style brewery that flies under the radar here outside of DC - Wheatland Springs Farm & Brewery. They put a heavy emphasis on local/fresh grains and when possible also source yeast from the property and hops from farms nearby. It does make for a very unique take on styles that I have not had elsewhere. It is an extremely unique business model in the US that in their attempts to find others doing similar stuff they have yet to find anyone. When you guys make it over to the States again, it is worth a detour.
In many ways the globalisation of the core craft styles is great - it’s excellent having UK based breweries make NEIPAs - but it starts to mean a bit less if every brewery is making the same thing. I’m not convinced about terroir, but a beer or brewery having a local/regional specificity/relevance is interesting and makes it stand out from the crowd
Exceptionally interesting and educational. The comparison of hops with grapes was fascinating. This is the best beer channel bar none.
Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed it!
Interesting topic.
A similar discussion is also going on with whisky.
Certain aspects of terroir can be used for beer and whisky, but the definition of terroir is so intimately linked to wine that it cannot be perfectly used for anything else (and that's OK).
Certain aspects of terroir just can't be replicated at all with beer/whisky, some aspects just disappear during the process of making those specific beverages.
If there is terroir in beer, it's probably more linked to how the water is in a specific area and what varieties of yeasts, grains and hops exist in that same area. That then leads to specific styles/types of beers that appear in specific areas (+ local history, innovations, relations with other areas, local lifestyles and drinking habits, etc.). That's why historically, British, Flemish, Bavarian and Central European beers are all relatively different (in taste and in how they are made). That being said, a lot of breweries and distilleries import most of their ingredients from abroad (as mentioned in the video : Belgian breweries do need to import fruit for their lambics, but at the same time Lambics are also intimately linked to a specific region).
Some people really want to make terroir part of beer/whisky, probably to add legitimacy and positivity to the drink they're making; it works to some extent but it's still not like what you get with wine. It just seems like marketing rather than true terroir (and some people kind of need to calm down with terroir, they just seem a bit desperate... maybe have a drink and enjoy it 😉).
I live in Burgundy so I'm surrounded by vineyards and terroir.
I love wine, beer and whisky for different reasons, there's no need to do everything exactly like wine.
As long as the beverage is well made, with quality ingredients, by people who aren't total arseholes, than that's good enough for me; if, added to all that, there is also a sense of place and history/tradition, or creativity, than it's even better.
I'm thumbs upped on this as I think you nail it. I'm considering logging off and coming back in a second account to thumbs it up again as I think this is a very worthwhile comment. Comments like this one is one of the reasons I hang out in this channel. Great content once again Brad and Jonny and, as ever, the comments really add value. One of only two Patreons I support and I have never doubted that I am contributing to something worthwhile.
The same question is asked about Japanese sake and the answer is basically 'no' because 3 of the 4 ingredients; rice, yeast and koji are easily transported. Water can make a difference. What we see with Japanese sake is that there are regional styles driven by food traditions and the input of a handful of brewer's guilds that produce the master brewers.
Paraphrasing. "It's the people, not the place, that make terroir" Philosophy as fuck. Best Brad musing ever ;-)
Certainly seems to be so in beer - too much human intervention!
Super interesting video, great job both!
great discussion!
Such a fascinating video! It is absolutely amazing how much information you managed to pack in a short video. The emphasis on the importance of water and how it built beer styles before we learned how to adjust the chemistry of water. It's something I've been reading into recently. Shoehorning in how hops and cannabis are related. I am sure a lot of people knew this already, but the subtle way it was mentioned was great.
Nicely done chaps.
I used to live close to the Hofbräuhaus in Newport KY, and the Hefeweizen fresh out of the tap was amazing.
fab & interesting video as always -thanks ps my tour list of breweries keeps growing every time i watch your videos !!
Another great video as usual, wanna try the Allagash couple actually!
The guys from Treehouse just released a video focusing on hops and terroir.
I believe the question is not whether there is terroir in beer but whether certain elements - such as hops - can carry their terroir. The answer is probably yes if - and only if - you focus on those elements. For example, having an IPA brewed exclusively with a batch of hops and compare it with a similar beer using a different batch of hops.
Also, some hops are richer in oils than others so it will play a huge difference. Thank you for starting the conversation.
It's certainly true that in hoppier styles, and indeed single hop beers, that terroir is much easier to find, taste and discuss. But so few beers are actually made that way.... though so few wines are single vineyard these days too so the same applies
The macro brewed (under license) stuff from Burton is usually vastly different from the originals brewed overseas in their native countries, which I assume is down to the water.
That would be the gypsum (calcium sulphate). There's a term in brewing called "burtonisation" which is adding gypsum to the water to create that "snap" of aroma.
I re-worded my original comment, as as well as the eggy smells with things like Marstons, I find the overseas stuff they brew under license is also inferior to the original
Terroir is a nice but somewhat romanticized concept. Even somebody who's job it is to identify wine by taste won't be able to reliably identify the place a wine comes from. You might be able to identify the climate but the rest is mostly based on what certain places are known for which is often based on historical, cultural and economical factors. You won't really be able to taste the soil a vine has been growing on even if people insist they can.
Cool to see my local ish Allagash on such a big scale.
I have a strong attachment to them. They make some of the most delicious beer I’ve ever had.
I think you guys should have added a southern hemisphere beer to this, and in particular a Tasmanian beer... its such a unique and protected ecosystem, that the malt tastes genuinely different. I have an amazing honey braggot from there, made with local honey and aged on local whisky barrels.
Maybe you could do a second episode that includes beers from different regions/continents/climates.
I run a craft beer store in Portland, Maine a few miles from Allagash. They have pioneered the localized ingredient trend for brewers AND restaurants in Maine. What is now called farm to table has been greatly influenced here at least by Allagash's "farm to bottle" philosophy and deeds.
realizing how spoiled I was drinking Allagash in 1999 in Portland, ME.
Yes. My beer comes from my basement.
I really hope you cannot taste that...
I've tried Mikkleller terroir series a few years ago. The things even looked different, let alone the taste.
Beer terroir is when I buy my sixer from the gas station across the street from my normal gas station
Allagash in the UK.
I live about a 4hr drive from Allagash (in a different country) and yet can't get it here!
Probably before modern "craft" breweries you could, to a certain extent, talk about terroir, since each nation had mostly its traditional beer styles using local water, barley and hops. I know that ingredients were imported even back then, but the idea was still to make beer according to the brewing tradition of that place.
Today it would be very interesting if a skilled brewery were to make two beers using the same hop type but grown in different places: that would give a good idea of the impact of terroir in hops, as it's probably the ingredient most affected by the growing conditions
Regional variation was niche long before craft beer - we have imported/exported ingredients, totally controlled water and been dominated by macropilsner for the best part of a century now (outside the UK and Belgium). It started with the German diaspora of the mid 1800s.
There are few breweries doing the experiment toy describe, we need to find some cans/bottles and do a video!
It's all about those artisanal wells 🍻
as well as those artesian wells
Just wondering, do you record these in the morning before the brewery or bar you're at has opened? It's always a rough day for me if I have a little beer before noon.
Haha it depends, but generally we film after lunch and before the pubs get busy.
A good middle-ground comparison for the hop/grape debate would be apples, not all orchards have a cidery and not all ciderys have an orchard.
True! Though I think very few vineyards actually make wine from grapes grown themselves in reality - been digging into this ever since we made the video!
Disappointed you couldn’t taste the dangly pretzels from the Hofbräu
If you don't have any wells
You're not drinking any hells
For great wild ales try jolly pumpkin
i feel like beer would have had more terroir pre globalism and stuff, local grains, local water, local hops, local yeast. but when you're matching your water to the profile of czechia, using a german yeast, grains grown to emulate something specific, a mix of hops...etc
water profile must make a big impact there
“cultural” part of terroir is in fact one of five components of terroir. people, traditions, styles are major part of terroir in wine, besides, soil, climate and the rest. fascinating video
I'm a Hofbraue fan, for sure.
Interesting point on water and how we can modify it, Thames Water in South West London have so much chlorine added to it its not worth brewing with ,I dont even drink it..... I would say very difficult to tell were a beer is from....as we use the basic 4 ingredients.. Grain ,Hops , Water , Yeast , I think if you have been to the brewers homes and tried their beers you do get a sense of connection leaning towards Terroir ... great video as usual
I;m increasingly coming to the view that there is/was terroir but we water it down/intervene as brewers.
yes agree I grow my own hops but water from bottles from wales .....
You can taste British beer so clear when you drink a international beer brewed in Burton on trent and it tastes like water farts.
You could test the theory of the wild yeast terroir in lambic by taking a sample of same recipe brews from multiple breweries but fermenting them in stainless steel or a non reactive vessel for a year instead of oak. Could be an interesting video experiment to test your hypothesis.
I believe a few studies have been done into this - will try to dig them out
Interestingly, hops grown around Manchester have a bit of a almond/marzipan thing going on. No idea why. But it seems to happen to many different varieties.
Coming from the place where hundreds died after being poisoned with arsenic in their beer (which smells of almonds) I'd be a little concerned! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1900_English_beer_poisoning
@@TheCraftBeerChannel I did not know that! This is from my experience with the Manchester Hop Project, and my own hops. Hopefully no tainted sugar there 😅
What about the hops that are technically the same hop, but smell/taste different depending on where they're grown?
Absolutely an indication of terroir but still so hard to define when mixed with other ingredients, processes etc
If wine has terroir, beer certainly has too, both come from plants grown in a certain area. Whether anyone can taste and pinpoint the terroir from a certain beer is a whole different story. The use of multiple ingredients, which you talk about, are making that complicated, but, in my opinion, the determination of terroir in beer is extremely underdeveloped compared to wine. Nobody is really talking about it in beer, but everybody is talking about it in wine. Single Malt, Single Hop beers would be extremely suited for these experiments, but everyone is changing the hop, not changing the place of origin of the hop...
A great video to discuss with my wine loving friends! Thanks!
A great idea! Perhaps we need to homebrew some SMASH recipes with tweaks to compare.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Homebrew, tasting and technical beerwaffling in one video? Excellent!
“Asgard is not a place, it’s a people”. Same goes for beer terroir!
I think the story behind the beer matters much more than terroir. When was it first brewed? 200 years ago? Wow! How did they invent this? Cool story! Where do they source their ingredients? Amazing! That is something I don't associate with wine. I feel like wine is about the place and beer is about the history.
It is a very interesting thought. I think a lot of wines do have fascinating stories, but beer styles definitely make telling them easier
I think you hit the nail on the head. Beer can have cultural terroir, not agricultural.
Great video guys.
Last year an Australian brewery did a series of experimental beers playing with the hops. Keep everything else the same but have the hops from different regions/countries. So one release they did was sourcing Citra from three different locations in the US. Another they did was sourcing Cascade from three different countries (US, UK, New Zealand). They also did a late pick and early pick experiment with Nelson Sauvin.
I can attest that the terroir of the hops (and the pick time for that matter) does make a noticeable difference to flavour. Of course, that being said, to be able to pick the terroir of the hops, everything else has to remain the same. Which is never going to happen, but it was an interesting experiment.
This year it looks like that brewery is doing experiments with yeast.
A very cool idea! WHich brewery was it?
I believe it was probably Hargreaves Hill. I know Range brewing also did the late/early nelson beer. I live in Aus but travel to NZ often with work. I've often thought that when I'm in Nelson or Wellington that the breweries are definitely using the NZ hops predominantly. This lends itself to a general terroir in that you consistently get that diesel note from a wide range of beers. I mentioned it before in a homebrew group but felt like a massive wanker for doing so 😂 Love the channel, keep it up. Please do some features on Boundary or Whiplash please 🙏
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Hawkers Beer from Victoria here in Australia. Had a great discussion with the brewer about it last year at a beer festival.
The ones with yeast this year were also really interesting.
From my point It is better to compare absolutely identical beers of the same styles and constituents with differences only in the origin of hops or malt. If we are talking about terroir.
Would be a fun test! Maybe we'll do a second episode....
I think in the strictest sense of the word Terroir, as far as wine goes, that Allagash sour is probably the closest to it. I think to have the true sense of terroir in beer, you would have to grow the malt, grow the hops, local water, local wild yeast, and made all on the same property (and any fruit in it).
Be kind of like Jeremy Clarkson has a brewery on his property and everything used in the brewery is grown on the land. Obviously not any (that I know of) that do that in the beer world.
I guess not in the wine world either as they probably aren't using local wild yeast in the wine.
There are a few breweries that do this, or at least come close - most of which work in the wild ale category. More common is breweries that attempt this and release specific beers that are made from ingredients they grew because doing it at scale is tough!
I very much doubt Jeremy is doing this though - he bought shares in brewery a few miles from his home (Cotswold Brewing Co), and doesn't grow any hops. I'd also suspect only a small percentage of his beer is made with his grain.
Beer may not have a Terroir, but its taste is influenced by where you are, who you are with, and how you are drinking it. It has a taste of occasion or circumstance.
P.S. I’m going to California next week - pints of Pliny on draft!!
Absolutely! Might do a video on that too one day - how our taste is changed by where/how we drink it. Enjoy Pliny!
I was trying to think of a way to test this terroir idea, maybe involving mixing several beers from a region. But that seemed like not a great idea.
Or is it? In the spirit world, whisky/whiskey at least, blending is an integral part of creating the product. It might be interesting to explore the idea of blending beers. Maybe the conclusion is it is crap. But I'd watch it.😂
I think if you blended you'd water down the idea even further! Perhaps a blind taste test where I try to guess the region - or at least the region of the ingredients and/or brewery might establish what's possible.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel but would you be determining Geographic Region or would it actually be Geographic Style.
It's more about culture of origin than terroir
I agree
Wine doesn't even have a terroir. It's marketing nonsense.