John the Baptist and Jesus in Light of the Dead Sea Scrolls
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- The Near East School of Theology
invites you to a Public Lecture
“John the Baptist and Jesus in Light of the Dead Sea Scrolls”
by
Katell Berthelot
Professor, Centre national de la recherche scientifique (CNRS)
Maison Méditerranéenne des Sciences de l'Homme, Aix-Marseille University
Very interesting. I have not heard anyone else point out these notable differences between NT Christ and the sect at Dead Sea. Merci.
I really like the way she speaks English, she is cute and has a gentle spirit. Interesting!!!!
This was fabulous. I do want to point out that the Mandaeans who hold John the Baptist as their most exalted prophet do indeed practice repeated baptism for ritual purity. They also conflate sin with ritual impurity.
True, plus that our history indicates that there was an exodus from Judea around 70 BC after the destruction of the Temple.
A good camera and sound tech is a must
The community at Qumran was occupied by the exiled priesthood of Aaron and not the Essenes. The rightful priests were exiled by the Hasmoneans/Pharisees after the Maccabean take over of the Temple. The Pharisees were Farsi priests. The Essenes were living in the hills above En Gedi 35 miles south of where the dead sea scrolls were found. The Pharisees desired to wipe out any memory of the community where John was preaching and so took actions to conflate them with the Essenes. Josephus was a Pharisee.
Jesus said the "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."
The rich keep contesting the will.
Well ststed!
Hi to All! I found this lecture very interesting, with the dating of the scrolls. The Prophet Daniel was given 'Times' of Events that would take place in the future, the Decree of Cyrus and the return to build Jerusalem to the Birth of the Messiah at an earlier date than the Church says due to a mistranslation, and his death and resurrection, and the Destruction of the Temple that took away the Daily Sacrifice. The Essenes link with John the Baptist is more probable with Daniels 'Times' placing John the Baptist around their time.
Well done.
The presenter made a convincing case that the teachings of Christ stood in opposition to the Essenes or to cultural attitudes (not Hebrew Scripture) when he preached to Love your enemies.
One cannot achieve more “inclusiveness” than to love your enemies.
Jesus was ahead of his time (and ours).
Nearly everything supposedly said by Jesus is plagiarized. Hillel among them, which is where the love your enemy concept arises.
The teachings of the New Testament (NT) version of the Christ stood in opposition to the Essenes. The historical Jesus however was not like he was portrayed later in the NT. He was a member of an offshoot sect of the Essenes. He opposed Rome. The NT had to cover that up and make him pro-Roman. The NT was written later. The scrolls tell us the original story.
At that time, Jesus and Christians were a sect within Judaism. This was an Apocaliptic sect of less than 20 persons that managed to survive and conquer the Roman Empire. Other sects, as the Essenes did not survive.
Yes, a Jewish sect but the early church didn't want to be part of the Jewish religion so they made their own.
Xtinaity conquered the roman empire? More like the roman empire conquered xtianity, subverting it from a violent independence political movement (obvious from the charge for his execution above his cross) to a submissive one that caters to the interests of empire, all along borrowing pagan imagery and practices, such as the canabalistic god eating of the last supper/holy communion.
Fascinating lecture….please improve the microphone so we can hear better.
Excellent lecture!! It appears that the Essene community has many parallels to the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation.
You are absolutely correct hopefully not for the wrong reasons. I believe that the book of revelation should be called the book of Jewish imaginations . Connected to all that Christ denied and perfected.
Good grief! Is your AV person asleep! The ringing out of the speakers are horrible
My question to you would be where you see Jesus teaching these people if they were in such errors unless they were already there with John
Simple logically exciting.
Very interesting lecture
If you say he was teaching against those in the desert whenever he said you have heard it said hate your enemies, then why would you try to claim that they were not present listening to that sermon
"We do not have any allusion, explicit allusion, to the Essenes in the New Testament" at 9:42. Wrong. They are mentioned in the advice which Jesus allegedly gave to the rich man in Matthew 19:21. If you want to be "perfect" it says, give everything you own to "the poor". The Dead Sea Scroll (DSS) sect called themselves by many names, including "the perfect of the way", "the poor", "zealous"/"zealots". The Hebrew collective plural word for "poor" (ebionim) was a common name for offshoot groups from this sect. This sect did accept the property of fully initiated members. They kept all property as a common sectarian possession. All the NT references to "the poor" are references to this sect. All NT references to "zealots", especially as associated with Jesus' own disciples, are references to this sect. The mention of "cannaim" is also a mention of this sect (it means "zealous"). Also to be noted is the absence of condemnation for this sect. Each of the other sects "Sadducees" and "Pharisees" got strongly critiqued as whitewashed sepulchers and hypocrites. What criticism is there about Essenes? Crickets. Jesus' advice to roaming disciples was to rely on the Essene sectarian hospitality as they traveled. Josephus tells us the Essenes had an offshoot group led by Judah the Galilean. These were known as "keepers of the covenant" (nazorim ha brit) and that name came down to us as the Nazorene sect. Jesus was said to be "the Nazorene". Please do NOT tell me this sect is left unmentioned in the NT.
That all of the Qumran texts are religious texts and none are secular, is evidence of the sectarian nature of this group. If this was the trove of many sects, then we should not normally expect such exclusion of secular material. Not only is the material religious, it is the same religion. We do see small shifts in sectarian rules over time and we do have early Essene and later Essene (Nazorene) material and we also have neutral religious texts (Old Testament books) that were a large component of the genizah cave (Cave 4). The secrecy that was maintained about these caves strongly suggest that the secret locations were known to few and they kept quiet. This fact makes participation from multiple sects far less likely. The uniform nature of scroll theology provides conclusive evidence of their sectarian affiliation.
Her elucidation of 4Q246 is significant. She compares it to the NT enunciation (Luke 1:35) and to Daniel 7. What I found of great interest was that the three elements ("son of God", "son of the Most High", eternal rule, and one could add a fourth element - all nations make peace) are not found all together in one place in any other Jewish literature. This is just like the term "holy spirit" that is found throughout the scrolls (hundreds of times), yet is not found anywhere in the OT and rarely (less than a half dozen times) in all of Jewish literature. Again, this rare term fits the Jesus group from the NT clues. One could also note the unusual communal living arrangements and the use of rank as similar indicators. These were unknown in other Jewish groups and standard for both the DSS sectarians and Jesus' disciples. They seem to be the same group. Use of baptism, belief in angels, and belief in resurrection all help identify this sect.
She cites 2 Samuel 7 as evidence that the Davidic king was called "son of God" to deflect Lukan dependence on 4Q246. She could also have cited Psalm 2 and Psalm 72. Yes the Davidic king had that title. This does not undo the stunning observation that these elements are mentioned together in only these three texts and never in any other Jewish literature from antiquity.
As far as polemics against the Essenes go, they are the whole point of the NT. We must expect that the AUTHORS of the NT should include these polemics. We must not make the mistake of attributing these polemics to the historical Jesus. Once we can ID the DSS sect as Jesus' historical sect, then we must go to the primary sources of the sect itself (the DSS) to find out what their messianic contender was really all about. Where the NT differs from the image we get from the scrolls is where we have caught the NT writers in their subterfuge.
The DSS tell us the history. The NT has distorted the history and it has made up a "Jesus" that the historical Jesus would have slain. The Romans had a motive to rewrite the story. It was the most devout Jews who were the most difficult for Rome to control. They kept objecting to Roman "images" because they were an offense against the rules of Torah. The NT Jesus was written as a character who would trample Jewish Torah by his actions and he would severely chastise those Jews who honored Torah. NT Jesus preaches a Pauline gospel. None of that is historical. But the clues remain that link us to Qumran where the historical Jesus seems to have actually resided. The unique teacher from Qumran may or may not have been named Jesus but he lay at the foundation of the Jesus story that was constructed later by NT authors and editors. The NT is a systematic rewrite of the story of the unique teacher from Qumran. It systematically seeks to pacify a radical and rebellious sect of Jews - the very sect that started the war with Rome. After the Roman victory, Rome needed to squash the Jewish hopes that were stirred by messianic prophecy. The NT provided the pro-Roman messiah needed for the job. They used the Roman version of the word messiah - he was Christ.
Berthelot uses John 8 (the woman caught in adultery story) to show how Jesus had a divergent view from the DSS sect. She failed to distinguish between the mythical NT Jesus and the historical Jesus in any way. Worse still, she UNCRITICALLY takes the NT claims as legitimate. She seems blissfully unaware that the story in John 8 does not exist in ANY early NT manuscript! It was added centuries later when it was placed in John 8, sometimes in John 21, or in Luke 21, in different copies of the NT. No competent scholar of NT Greek mss. would admit the passage as genuine. In any event. there are lots of examples that would make her case for her. NT Jesus IS different from the teachers at Qumran. Where he differs is where the NT writers changed him. There are many links that tie the historical Jesus to Qumran. Use the DSS to know him better. The NT intentionally distorted the real picture.
My conclusion: Renaud was far closer to the truth about the historical Jesus than Berthelot. Berthelot uses NT quotes to say Renaud's view of the historical Jesus was wrong. How does it prove him wrong to show that the mythical NT view does not match the historical Jesus? Of course they do not match! Myth is not history. Berthelot fails to address the historical Jesus at all. She needs to read the work of Robert H. Eisenman.
I agree that Eisenman's research would broaden her understanding. He helped make the scrolls available to the public. You are right on about the Romans. Titus Flavius and the historian Josephus, later known as Flavius Josephus, used typology to reconstruct the stories of the NT to suit Rome and as you stated, a peaceful messiah. Love your enemy? How is a messiah to conquer an occupied Rome with that approach? Rome did not permit free speech nor did they allow writings of any kind without their authority and besides, who could afford too in such times? I walked away from religion because no one knows the truth. Even the book says, "let no man teach you". Maybe that's the best advise yet. Rome still rules today with HQ located in Vatican City. It's Caesars' Messiah and with that you should watch Jospeh Atwill's take on it.
Lol what a fuckin nerd
FYI... interesting fact. The Dead Sea Scrolls were found at the same time as the Zionists were hosting an "Exodus" to Israel for the rewrite of the history AGAIN. They practiced this same exact thing in 1881 when "created text" was found and the "Christian" version became the "Greek" text of the German. By 1963, JFK banned the original Christian text and then he was assassinated 330 years to the day that the Jesuits set sail to create the new world. It was Nancy Pelosi's father that sent the "SECT" on the Exodus in 1947. She is the Speaker of the House of Rockefeller, who has been building hospitals in Jerusalem and buying land in Israel since 1917. Teaching wrongs were considered EVIL until they taught that the "Evil" would save you from the Sin that you create yourself. Thanks for the historical review of things. *The "poor" sect of Knights Templar were granted "Religious Freedom" to live above the Law of the Land in America in 1826, cause a war on the land in 1861 and Onward Christian Soldiers was written in 1865 after they killed Americans and took over the Nation.
Interesting as the name for Mandaeans, in Mandaean scripts is Naṣuraiia or Nasoraeans/Nasaraeans, meaning guardians or possessors of secret rites and knowledge.
@@sadsam99 The Aramaic verb "natsor" means "to keep" or "to guard". The collective plural for "keepers" or "guardians" is "natsorim". The Mandaean and Aramaic words are cognates of each other.
And she is Smart :-)
John the Baptist must have been a little slow. He baptized Jesus with the whole scene about not being worthy and Jesus baptizing with the holy spirit and the voice of God telling Jesus that you are my son etc. And then later seems to have no clue as who this Jesus fellow is and then asks one of his guys to check it out because why, John had more important things to do than talk to God's son. Jesus keeps having this problem that his followers don't have a clue about who he is while demons and strangers recognize him the second they meet him.
There’s no account of Jesus in the scrolls.
This is not a scholarly reaponse
Jesus was kin to Zadok as were the Essenes and they wrote thet the Master of the congregation would bless the Prince of the Covenant
They were to remain hidden until it was time for the Light to Shine in Jerusalem
John prepared the Way for Messiah but Qumran prepared the Way for Yohanan
Keep in mind this is a transition, not a complete Covenant
They wrote that they would remain in the desert till Messiah
They stopped living at Qumran when Jesus came and followed Him
Ever thought it was a bit weird that Jesus never goes and teaches to these people, or that John was sent to the wilderness to live "by himself" as a kid?
He wasnt sent to live by himself no
This is the place they crossed Jordan in the old Covenant
This is where Jesus was baptized
Beth-Bara is where it was
Jesus said pray for your enemies.
Fix the audio. It's horrible. She's micd up and you are just running the room audio from the crap mic on the camera? A single splitter could solve that problem. This lecture is amazing and you guys do her like this? Disgraceful.
Censoרed? Runs without sound in Israel.
To assume that there is no correlation between these two simply because they still had things that they didn't understand that was for the kingdom quite yet is in irrelevant position seeing as how they were looking for a teacher to teach them all things meaning they were not going to be perfect according to the Covenant without us which is exactly what Hebrews echoes how about the people living in the halls of the earth which is conveniently avoided
The Abrahamic religions are the greatest tragedy ever to befall mankind.
oh really? What exactly have they done that harms mankind
Children of the Panther
The LORD declares to you that He Himself will establish a house for you. 12And when your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13He will build a house for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14I will be his Father, and he will be My son.b When he does wrong, I will discipline him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.
15But My loving devotion will never be removed from him as I removed it from Saul, whom I moved out of your way. 16Your house and kingdom will endure forever before Me,c and your throne will be established forever.”
The presenter of this video is full of folly. 2 Samuel 7 chapter 11-16, TMH gave Nathan a vision concerning HIS son, Israel Not JC
@NEAR TERM EXTINCTION - HUMAN I bet u got ur 2nd jab and boosters shots...and you got the nerve to mention the word, "Sheep"
Yes, and most Jews are not Israel but Esau!
Jesus is not in the dead sea scrolls!!
the dead sea scrolls are fake
@@gustavmahler1466 I agree and there is very little the same with the buybull. It's strange they even bring up the dead sea scrolls and have never read them! Goes to show most people in this world are borderline schizophrenics and easy to fool no evidence needed!
The only pertinent question is why would anyone give. damn about this nonsense.
She obviously hasn't read the bible.
Jesus is the one to trust. He trust in us to be like him
Don't believe this.
The God Culture actually PROVES this out completely. Go watch the videos in The Original Cannon Series. Watch everything they have all series. It will blow ur mind
It's all nonsense.
the audio on this is atrocious!!!
Because God willed it so.