Woodworking glue and finish problems | Mere Minutes
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2014
- Had a couple problems with this week's patio table project. The glue left exposed lines and the finish is sticky. Let me know if you have any ideas what I did wrong, especially with the glue. That was the biggest surprise.
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Hi Steve, That milky film on your finish is common on freshly finished furniture when it is humid out. You mentioned there was dew on the table. It will go away once it is cured. Next time thin the mixture or put a drying agent in it. The "black" at the glue lines is probably a reaction of the glue with the oils in the wood. Next time try cleaning the edges with acetone before applying the glue. Incidentally I like the circular table much better. Thanx for the video and plans I'll be making my own, but with a smaller diameter.
You Sir are a pleasure to watch.
I have a really (3+yes old) bottle of TBA and that dries a really dark brown colour. It's almost like the BT for "dark wood" that they make. No idea why it does it though.
Curious! :-)
Thanks for showing the problems/mistakes. That kind of feedback sometimes that helps more then the instructions to make the projects. I also like to feel that I'm not the only one that has a problem.
Hooray for NZ Me-Mo!
I like the round table!
I really like that table!!! I'm going to have to make one (my wife told me to)
I use TB III all the time and never have noticed the brown lines like you have, or not to anywhere near that degree. All I can think is that I don't often glue end grain to end grain, and maybe the glue bleeds into the end grain and is more visible when you do that?
Sad to hear about all the troubles with the urethane and the Titebond III. Hopefully someone will have a fix for you.
Regards,
Bob
my wife definitely preferred the octagon vs. the round version...
in my experience, TBIII does dry darker than TBII and definitely plain old TB.
You're my favourite you-tuber thanks for making videos :)
I noticed the same kind of staining from using Tite bond 3 on a Redwood project as well. I've used Tite Bond 3 on other woods and never noticed that issue before, only on that Redwood project.
I've never used titebond but with the cold glues I've used the only reaction that darken the wood happens if the clamps get some glue on them. I can't see how the screws would have such a wide spread reaction to the glue up. If anything it wood be more localized to the location of the pocket holes. As for the urethane issue. I had a similar thing happen with some picket fencing I made ,I think it was because I didn't thin down the first coat. Depending on the finishing product I'm using my first coat for any exterior wood is I usually would use a 50/50 mix so that the first coat can get a good soak into the wood. But I'm guessing with the product you used there was no need for this?
Still, that table is really great. Thumbs up for that build.
Steve, i had the same problem with titebond 3, i believe it was mineral stains in my maple or the type of sandpaper i used.
Nice tomato plants, mine are not that big yet.
Mine have barely sprouted!
do americans even trim their tomato plants? steve's plants seem very wild.. if you trim them you wil get a lot more tomato's! just cut out the little sprout that grows between the main stem and the leaves of the main stem, it is really easy to do, i bet you can find video's on youtube on how to prune tomato's
staalmaffia
Steve did mention that he does or intends to.
staalmaffia This is false, cutting the suckers will not cause more production.
I'm jealous of homegrown tomatoes! Grew them growing up but now the animals always get them before the are even close to ripe.
Omg! I love your random ADD.
I liked the part outside with you sitting on the table. It´s maybe the acoustic an the light that is so much better then inside. It lets me feel like I´m sitting outside talking with a good friend. You should do more filming outside!
Hey, I find that you get that dark reaction whenever you use PVA glue with redwoods. Atb Ryan
Steve... I use a lot of water based poly, mostly Minwax, But that is a characteristic of water based, when it gets wet, it turns white. It is the same when you put on additional coats, it will turn white and when it dries, it is back to clear. Great job, love your vids.
Just got done useing polycrylic on cedar and i forgot to add a small trim to keep things from moving. Would titebond hold 2 pieces of wood thats been polycrylicd? Or 1 has and the other hasnt?
Steve, in general I like your videos. I didn't even make it 5 seconds into this one before I gave it a like. A Million Ways to Die in the West is one of my favorite comedies so opening up with that recommendation gets a like from me!
Hi Steve, do you recon you could do a hammock stand for the coming summer? I should think that could be a good challenge.
Thanks,
Chris V.
Cool cat at the end:)
I think that the pocket screws look cool
Tite bond II is water resistant, tite bond I I I is water proof when cured.
I use tite bond III all the time and have never had the dark stains that you showed. You might call the manufacturer, they have been very helpful to me.
Very interested in the results with the Spar Urathane. I am considering using it on an outside part of a door.
Thanks for all you do by sharing information and your experiences.
Great snippets - keep them coming. Always enjoy them.
Any chance you could show this failing woodworker how to build neat raised beds like you have your tomatoes in?
Rgds ..Pete
is the black corrosion from the glue reacting with the screws?
That's a pretty cool looking mug! Hey, if you need to get rid of some of those tomatoes when the time comes, you can send some out to me!! I don't know how they would take a trip out here to Virginia though..... lol
Hi Steve, here in Aus we have a glue for outdoor purpose named Aquadere good glue but I used it on some outdoor furniture and the same thing happened to me I thought It was the wood I used which was Tassie Oak then I tried it on radiate pine and the same thing happened so the conclusion I had was if I used it use it in a place not seen or use construction glue so the moral of the story is that titebond III might be simular I hope you find out more I would like to know myself
15000 views in 1 day ! awsome..
Steve
I always use Titebond 3 and have never had these issues. Not sure what caused it.
I’m having the same problem with epoxy resin left in the cracks of my redwood and sanding just rubs a dark sticky color into my redwood unfortunately and makes the pretty redwood color dark and dull. I guess I’m going to have to take a thin little chisel tool and work out the dark gooey stuff in the cracks of my redwood. I hope I will work out. 🤞
I plan to dye some walnut blocks black & or maybe stain them black (so they are for sure black). Then I plan to glue some Mother of Pearl chips to these areas that may or may not have the dye/stain. Will I have trouble with adhesion...?
I think pocket hoes can look nice when they are well spaced. Great point Steve. I do have issues sometimes with tear out on my holes but maybe it's my bit mad I need to replace it.
With your tomato plants, Pinch and remove suckers that develop in the crotch joint of two branches. They won’t bear fruit and will take energy away from the rest of the plant. But go easy on pruning the rest of the plant. You can thin out a few leaves to allow the sun to reach the ripening fruit, but it's the leaves that are photosynthesizing and creating the sugars that give flavor to your tomatoes.
Actually suckers will bear fruit. I de sucker mine to train them up a string.
I use tb 3 every day. you have to wipe any squeeze out with a wet but not dripping rag. love your vids by the way.
Steve idk if you found out about your dark lines with titebond 3 yet or not but that glue is made for dark woods such as walnut or mahogany but it also has a slightly fast dry time and strength factor to it than tight bond 2. If you already got the answer sorry. If not well now you know lol. Anyhow keep doing what you doJames
Titebond II water resistant, Titebond III water proof.
Polyurathanes (PU), especialy those not specifically formulated for outdoor use, never fully cure. This is what provides the "plastic" protection. As a result, when wet for any period of time (e.g., rain, sprinkler, etc.) the milky color of the liquid PU often returns. This is simply the uncured portion marginally liquifying. Oil based products have the same reaction if in contact with oils for any length of time. Applying multiple tinner layers 24hrs appart generallyl helps reduce the effect. Time will also lessen the effect, but there is no way to accurately predict by how much.
Cool curvy fence around the tomatos! Also, I think that black line is specific to redwood and cherry. I know cherry reacts that way and that there's one other wood that does the same; I *think* it's redwood.
Is it tannins in the wood? My understanding is that redwood contains tannins (which is the thing that discourages insects).
Steve,
Some folks equate hand cut joinery to moral superiority. I use pocket screws and all sorts of other joinery where it's appropriate to the application, material, and time I have to work on it. I've even used drywall screws in pocket holes if that is what was sitting there.
If someone shows up at my house for a barbeque, looks under my table and complains that they can see my pocket holes and why didn't I use a bow tie joint... well they just might be a weirdo. Keep on using the pocket screws.
I think the dark line comes from the reaction between the Tightbond glue and the metal screws. The Tightbond guide says don't use metal tools with any of their products. The pocket holes have the metal screws running through the glue joint and the resulting darkening came out to the exposed glue line. I imagine you got a combination of higher moisture content of the construction lumber and the metal screws that contributed to the amount of darkening you saw. Tightbond III really holds well. It's worth it for hardwood applications. Softwoods will break before the glue does so Tightbond II is ok to use for those species.
Using really dry construction lumber seems to help. Letting lumber sit on stickers with weight on top for a couple of weeks helps keep you from getting noodles and potato chips and it goes a long way to let the wood dry and become more dimensionally stable. It's not kiln good but for most of us it works well.
Mark S. could probably give a dissertation on the subject. A couple of his shows go into the chemical properties of finishes and glues. The science of it will make your head explode trying to remember all of it. I think that glues and finishes take on the the same quality of joinery for some folks. It becomes a subject of religious dogma rather than what "just works" for Mere Mortals.
If you go to the Tighbond site they have a fairly awesome PDF on their products with a very cool set of "common gluing terms". It's only two pages and worth the quick read. I have it printed and in my shop binder.
For the spar urethane 24 hours isn't really enough. Especially for multiple coats. Let one cure for the full 24 hours then put on the next. If you have time let each coat cure for 48 hours. It really does make a difference. Remember that high moisture content wood like construction lumber will affect curing time. I think the assumption is that all of the applications will be on material that has reached moisture content equilibrium.
Also, I'll put on the spar urethane for moisture protection and then a coat of UV blocking urethane for sunlight protection on anything that goes outside. I'll lightly sand and refinish with the UV coating once a year. If you are in a damp climate then you might also take the UV coating down to the spar varnish/urethane layer and add a new coat of that as well.
The white marks are similar to the ones you see on a coffee table when you put a cup of coffee on it and the cup sweats or a drink with condensation on it. You get those white rings and blotches. Once the coating fully cures you won't see that as much if at all.
Love the videos, All the best.
A MeMo from Idaho
+Gail Long Where can I find the shows of Mark S.?
we used to use that type of finish on our large wood deck when I was a kid. We would put on a thick coat and let it set for 2 days without walking on it. after that it was usually a bit sticky for about a week but after a week it would have soaked up all the finish and over the course of the summer it would get lighter in color. we reapplied it every spring right before we put up the awning.
Hope you understand my english, the problem was the same for both situations, almost sure the weather was too moisty and damaged the varnish and the glue, also you would have to wait until the glue is totally dry before aplying the varnish, anyway it is a very nice table, greatings
I agree. Marc's live show is an infomercial. And who was his sidekick? Steve you should have one. Maybe a puppet that also has a funny voice. Yea, a mini MeMo. *sorry just thinking again.
I've been using TB 3 for a couple years for everything and haven't had anything like the problem you're showing there. (I'm lead to understand that the difference between 2 and 3 is primarily the level of water resistance.)
wow i didnt know about that i might have to go there in september since i live in charlotte
OH my gosh. I live in the Oddessa area. That is so funny. I've seen the guys shop before.
Steve, don't blame the glue - blame the wood. I've been using western red cedar and redwood lately for outdoor projects and the discoloration is most noticeable on the redwood, probably due to the higher tannins in the wood. May I suggest performing a test with some of the redwood cut-offs such as using TB III, TB I, and Gorilla wood glue to observe the effects of the different glues. Smear some on a flat surface as well and you will probably see staining as well.
When making something that will be "living" outside make sure you use water resistant glues. Water proof doesn't cut it sometimes. As for the black lines I have noticed that Titebond II also leaves them but not on all woods and not that visible. That maybe the reason why they made Titebond III Ultimate in brown color.
With spar varnish I had the same problem when I started using them. The trick is to leave the first coat to dry for 24h. Second and third coat can take up to 3 day depending how thick it is. You can thin it down in order to make the coats dry faster. Also make sure that you don't dry it on the sun. Then you can have all sorts of problems (bubbles, different shine and such).
I was using a lot of titebond III and it stains d wood but d glue itself is very good specially for outdoor jobs, next time if you using that glue wipe excess with dump cloth straight away " don't let it for to long " and you won't have any stains love your videos
Looks like a marajuna plant to me. You like a bit of the wacky tabaccy hey?
I have the same glue. It's good but it does dry dark.
Winston-Salem is a great town - make sure you explore Old Salem, I think you will find it very interesting
It may be the tannin in the redwood bleeding into the glue. Painters have that problem when they paint redwood sometimes.
I don't know for certain; just a thought on whether the glue reacted with the screws you also used and the discolouration comes from that. You'd have to do an experiment with some kind. Do a joint with just the glue and clamped; and do another small joint with your glue and screw method and see if there is a difference! If the is no problem discolouration with 'just glue' joint; but the glue and screw has the same result again, see if you can take the screws out of your test piece and notice any peculiar effects. If it is significant, perhaps let the company know about the situation; they may not be aware of this side effect in use. They would hopefully change the advice label to indicated the problem with glue and screw joints!
Perhaps stainless steel screws are needed; You could use different screws in joints to see if you can get the joint without discolouration!!
"DID YOU KNOW"
Pruning tomato suckers is sometimes recommended because the resulting new stem is competing for nutrients with the original plant. You may be setting more fruits if you leave the suckers to grow, but the fruits will be smaller and the plant will be more cumbersome. Pruning tomato suckers is really just thinning the plants.
Do I Need to Prune Out Tomato Suckers? That depends...
Pruning tomato suckers is never required and many gardeners don’t bother with tomato pruning at all. However even if you prefer to prune your tomatoes, whether to do so or not depends on the type of tomato plant you are growing.
I hop this was hopeful.
I think titebond 2 is water resistant and titebond 3 is waterproof. I've used 3 before, but didn't get that black staining. Could be a reaction to the specific wood species or perhaps a reaction with the particular finish. Maybe it's just mean.
Call it what I call all my f- ups. Character. Because I havent obtained a table saw yet I coined an old saying. Sand the crap out of it. People ask why will it take a week to get a box done? Because I have to invest in the sandpaper companies and sand the crap out of it. P.S. Love what you do. You, Jon Peters, and Diresta have dramatically improved my work. Thank you
Have you gotten a belt sander? Great for removing material. Not so good for trueing an edge. However, a plane *can* do that if you have the know how and experience. I’ve got a furniture maker around the corner and I took him a board that needed to have just a bit shaved off on his table saw (I thought). Instead, he pulled out his plane. Faster than a table saw set up, that edge was 90° to the face.
So I’m getting myself a #5 Jack Plane for starters, then maybe something longer, and learn how to use them. Back to the basics, right? I’m thinking that if I’m over reliant on power tools, I’m dead in the water during power outages due to natural disasters or even just heat waves.
Is it difficult to have a garden in California? I've heard of all the rationing of water. How do you keep your plants so fresh? I Live in Northern Alberta Canada, so I've never really encountered a shortage of water.
After you drink your butt of on beer reserve the pee for the veges LOL
Not really. Your overall landscaping should avoid water hogs like lawns and certain plants. Use drought tolerant native plants instead. Some localities have regulations regarding your ground cover. Many have regulations requiring you to water at night. The point is to avoid wasting water. Water your tomato plants in the early morning and use a mulch to minimize evaporation.
Titebond III is FDA approved for indirect food contact, Example cutting boards
iv been told the black line you get with Redwood or Cedar is because of the tannins in the wood!
I had the same problem when I tried that glue, let me know if you find anything out about this problem...... Time to start doing some canning, lol
I have waterbased laquer for floor, it dries after hands, but for total polimerisation it needs 7 days
I've had that problem. I think that the stain darkens the glue a lot.
check out the finish Izzy Swan came up with it is 2 parts teak oil and 1 part urethane I tried it on a cedar Adirondack chairs and a white oak 5 board bench it work great , nice table will try to build one soon
They do have plugs that are made to fit into the holes left from pocket hole joints. I've seen pieces where those are intentionally left visible. It doesn't look as impressive as a dovetail joint for sure but it does look like inlay.
Wondering if the joint color is more a reaction of moisture with the screws rather than the glue itself.. I've seen this happen on decking where galvanized (rather than stainless) nails are used and the reaction of the metal carries through the wood. In non-metal joints I've never had this happen :-) Just guessing. Loved the table BTW
I was thinking something like that.. if the wood wasn't properly dried and somehow oxidation spread through the glue... But I live in Norway so I don't know if redwood has properties that can oxidize, Never imported redwood.
Redwood and Cedar react to metals and I agree that the screws may have caused the staining. I found some stainless pan head screws that work in pocket holes at a local hardware store and have not had any problems with cedar. I use the tightbond III on outdoor furniture I make and have not had any problems.
I'm pretty sure the video showed Steve using Kreg's stainless screws in the pocket joints. I think a reaction between the wood and the glue is more likely.
I have used Titebond 3 for my black locus swing and I never had black marks were the glue was and I used a lot the best guess I have is that the end grain changed it a good finish that I like is called water loxs
Mark's show was GREAT! Too bad there were no pocket holes on the mug, huh? :>)
Steve the black line are from the glue reacting with the pocket screws.
You can see those black lines between the layers of construction plywood... probably waterproof glue as well... could it be normal?
Similar problem when using the Titebond 3 glue,not the dark residue, but the inability to sand it down without causing some change in the surrounding wood. Best solution I've had success with is a rag in hot water. So tighten, wipe down thoroughly, tighten and then repeat. Like very thoroughly
Titebond II gives that black glue line, too.
The black is the tannins in the woods reacting with the glue (any PVA based glue will do the same).
You should do a month or something dedicated to "Nerdy" projects... Stuff like Doctor Who. Harry Potter, Star Trek, you know stuff like that. Building a TARDIS would definitely be amazing for Whovians like me to see
I wonder if the fact that it was water-based and that maybe it was humid had anything to do with the milky streaks.
Maybe the water based finish sucked up some moisture from the wood, which was released after it "baked" in the sun. (I´m assuming it´s quite hot in California at the moment?) This usually shouldn´t happen since the finish is supposed to be waterproof, but if it wasn´t fully cured it might actually still be able to absorb some more of it´s solvent, i.e. water.
i'm one of your french's subscribers (sorry for my english)
i've the same problem than you with my glu , when you sand the glu ,the glu eat and became black in order to not have this blzck line,you have to remove the exes glu with a chisal !
Love the round table Steve..... some types of wood need to be sealed on the ends or treated with a quick drying chemical like acetone. I know teak and pipe( a Brazilian hard wood) both need to be treated.
I think the only difference between Titebond II and III is working time (with III having longer working time). I use II and have never noticed black lines before. I'd be curious if it was a reaction to the screws -- similar to how pipe clamps can stain wood black when in contact with glue. Purely speculation. I think the table still looks terrific, though.
The difference is TB II is water-resistant. TB III is water-proof. Makes a big difference for projects that live outside.
Walter K
Well more water-resistant, anyway. You still wouldn't use TB III below the waterline.
You should use Elmer's waterproof glue It dries clear I use it to glue a mini table together.
What do you do when you get "wood workers block" you know like "writers block"
Right now i have no motivation to work. And i need to make saw dust. Its in my blood. Any suggestions?
Are you leaving all the suckers on your tomato plants?
I live just an hour away from winston-salem
I had the same with that glue and I didn't like it after the finish :(
I built a stool for my kids to use at the sink and used a water based spray on poly, when the kids splash on it those same milky spots show up that your were talking about but then go away once completely dry, kind of has me turned off of water based top coats....
I've never had any luck with water base finishes. After ruining a couple of projects I gave up. Never again!
i think the lines are not from the glue but the pocket screws they ruin every project but seriously this is the answer i found online This is normally a reaction between iron and tannins in the wood fostered by the moisture in the glue.
You forgot the "click this link" at 30 seconds in!!
What?! You didn't use the Kreg Titanium Teflon-kote® pocket screws? The humanity!...
Take hot water and a soft bristle brush and that’ll get the glue off
With that titebond glue, put the glue on a piece of scrap wind and let it dry seeing if the glue dries black.
5:22 Make that planter box
Maybe the black line is a reaction to the glue from the finish you used
how can I fix a bended table top
Plane it.
I rub sawdust from my random orbit sander on my TBIII glue joints and then it seems to hide that black line. I do this often enough I have 3 coffee cans of dust - a light, medium and dark.
Usually metal chips makes the glue get black when dried.
Yes! Octagon
So when do we get to see your wife in a live woodworking show?
If I'm not mistaken, wood glue 3 is food-safe and waterproof, whereas wood glue 2 is just waterproof.
Cue a million comments confirming that's exactly what TBIII does :(
Look at any really expensive wood built furniture. Pocket holes everywhere. Especially tables. All really expensive wooden furniture use these sorts of joints. I can't imagine what anyone here is on about??