hey Joe cant say how excited iam to see you back. these videos are incredible. i really appreciate everything you have and continue to do. I hope there is a future talk in your FA series on isolation modules
I’ve learned as much or more than I did taking fire safety systems at my local college lol well at the very least there’s more clarity here, or maybe I just understand better now 4 years later working in the field. Either way thanks Joe keep em coming
Hi Joe I enjoy your videos you are on point and very clear .I’m glad to see you back. Love your explanation this kind of knowledge you only get from experience .keep up the great work .
Watched this video one year ago. Came back to it after using metering methods discussed to solve open circuit and ground fault issues for a major grocery chain... They complained that the last service provider was unable to solve the issue for a number of years. Thanks 🙏🏾
Hi Joe, Hope all is well and that you will read this. I work at a property management company and recently we had a trouble pop up on one of our panels. Given what I found I'm surprised the trouble is new. Anyway, had a tech come look at it, he narrowed it down to a small area of the building but said he 'had no way to test' any further. Needless to say, I got curious. We have multiple buildings with fire alarm systems and I am a 'do everything' maintenance tech so I started digging. Shortly into my search I found your videos. Your explanations and walk throughs of everything from the basic systems to the big picture really helped me piece this puzzle together. In my experience I have done various 120/240v electrical projects and before your videos you could say I didn't really understand what fire panels do. So when I found out it's basically various electrical circuits that just have to monitor themselves I was all for it. Let me show you what I learned and how it helped me find the problem. The panel itself is in the underground parking of a five building complex known as 'Phase 2'. It is an addressable panel with 5 SLCs and 6 Horn circuits, one horn is for the garage. The trouble was listed as '1002 Fire Trouble' (Note the device is listed as building only). The tech that came was able to tell us that is was on an IDC not a NAC so that helped somewhat. I did not pull anything off the panel itself because it was all four wire SLCs and a whole bundle after it left the main box and I didn't know what any of them were so I didn't dig into it much there. I found the control module for the building (had a trouble light lit on the front). Pulled it open, verified voltage on power in. Found an OL when I took of the 'loop' wires. On the other side of the module was what I can only assume to be data in. There is a 33kO resistor in line between the relays. The system looked like it was supposed to short on alarm, open on touble, so I was looking at the EOL of the data circuit for the building. As the note earlier suggests, I believe there was only one device on each SLC. From here on, we should be in conventional, one-in-one-out all in line devices. Interesting note and question for Joe or anyone able to answer. It was noted that 24v smokes cannot be on a FMM because not enough power, this FZM (I believe although I have no indication from the module itself) gets power and yet we were only reading around 10V. Reading on this, at least some of the smokes had a dip switch to set them to 6-12V range so perhaps that solves the problem? Funny note, the tech thought there was a short in the system when I know that would have caused an alarm and could clearly read an OL from the module. So we started marching through boxes. The way the building is laid out we assumed the power started at the basement level of one staircase, followed the devices up and accross on the third floor hallway, and back down the other staircase to an exit on the first floor on the other side of the building. Near the panel there was a note saying EOLrs were at the pull station by that far exit door. It did not start like that. In the boxes there are red and black wires as well as brown and blue. It was hard to tell at first what they were but after confirming that they were just a continuation of the two wire circuit I started trying to read them the same. I noticed that we lost power after first the basement landing but had it in a random location on the other side of the building, super confusing. I tried to get organized and draw things out, follow the power. I isolated a smoke that was getting power but not letting it through. To be specific this detector is a Smoke Sensor 2w-b. It's worth noting that the positive leads are split on the mounting bracket and the device completes the circuit. I saw somewhere else someone wired one of these in with the positives on the two + terminals. When I pulled the smoke down the line in was on RA- and line out was on RA+. This truck me as odd so I put the positives on the terminals labeled as such. Go upstairs to first, we now have power. Panel still has trouble unfortunately and still did not have power for a significant portion of the building. We keep going and find another detector of the same style (second floor landing straight above the other one, so still pretty early in the circuit) (most of the detectors are very simple two wire photoelectric), It is also miswired on RA+/-. On other boxes before this it was always, Voltage one way and OL the other, or EOLr one way (3.9kO ish) no voltage the other. On this smoke I read voltage one way, EOLr the other. Like you said, I had found it. Switched the wires over and now had power to the rest of the building. My coworker tripped an alarm when putting a smoke back in (probably crossed wires on the screwdriver, this is why it's a good idea to silence the horns when doing this) That had to be manually reset at the module before the panel would clear but we found it!! A bit more research later, turns out the RA terminals are for a 'Remote alarm LED'. Basically if you want a light to go on when this detector trips, that's where you wire it, it only has power when there is an alarm. This brings me back to how was this not in trouble from the moment someone did this? This took a long time (10+ man hours, 4 hour push from me today to deal with it) to find and I'm hoping to be more efficient in the future. Knowing that the smokes blink when they have power is a good start because I can go until I don't see blinking and work back from there. Every panel is different, every situation is different, but your videos gave me the conceptual knowledge and troubleshooting basics to get through this and for that, I thank you. I hope you can continue to make videos in the future. Couple questions if anyone can help. How do you make sense of all the little boards and labels covered by wires and rats nests you may find at a panel? Behind the module there was a box that looked like a mini module you mentioned but the wires were tied in on blocks to a circuit board. It had br/bl in and r/b out to the data input on the control/isolation module. What is that box/board? I mentioned getting 10V off the control module when it does get 24V power, is this normal? Another Control module I opened (for the next building in line) had a brief trouble when stopped, could've been related to the other testing we were doing. The 33kO EOLr did not have continuity. I know you mentioned that SLCs do not need an EOLr but would it be a good idea to replace it anyway? These control modules had LEDs on the front for power/alarm | Smoke detector trouble | trouble and no ID turn dials. I'm assuming this is something that has to be programmed at install? I hope these questions aren't too vague. I just wanted you to know how valuable this was towards helping me handle this problem. Thanks again. - Nathan
Also I was testing the horn circuits output voltage for reference and was getting -5.0V almost exactly on all of them except one gave me -6.2V is this a problem?
Nathan, Good find, and thanks for the kind words! If you're not happy with what you're paid in your current role, you could easily get into the alarm industry. It would take most techs a long time to reach the level of competency you seem to have. You asked a lot of questions, and I'm not sure I totally follow the situation. I think there's a bit of confusion because of some of the terminology you're using. For example, you said each building has a "control module", but I think what you mean is a monitor module. A control module is an output module, something that would turn on horns, speakers, or strobes. A monitor module is an input. Regardless, I know get what you're saying. It seems when you say "loop", you're referring to the circuit with conventional devices on it? I'm a little bit confused on certain aspects of this. For starters, what kind of panel do you have? It seems you're correct that the 10 volts should be OK if the 2W-Bs can handle 12 volts. Good catch. Your questions at the end: What do you mean about making sense of the boards and the rats nests? Do you have pictures? I guess that's basically our job, to know what the boards do and then troubleshoot circuits. It's definitely much easier when the install was done with proper workmanship and labeling. Your next question I have no idea what that is. A picture would be helpful. 10 volts isn't what I'd typically see, but if they have a 12 volt power supply, and the 2W-B can handle 12 volts, that's no problem then. The next question about the 33k on the SLC I can't make sense of. I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Send me an email at Joeklochan at Gmail. Put some pictures of what you're talking about and I'll try to help out. Good job though, I know people who have been in the industry for a long time that wouldn't have been able to fix that.
I know this is dated, but OL means Over Limit. The reading exceeds the capacity of the meter. Also, the setting with the diode symbol is the setting for checking proper function of a diode, i.e. continuity in one direction, no continuity when you reverse the leads.
This is an amazing reference for someone like me, who suddenly found himself in building management, and trying to pass on this knowledge to other engineers in Indonesia. Thank you, truly, for making this life-saving contents!
Is there any way you can do a video on explaining what a nac ckt is and an slc ckt. Also how they are related and work in adressable systems. Also would you consider doing videos on fire alarm codes at least basic codes.
Now would you do these same steps with all devices? Whether it was smokes on the circuit or even tampers off a backflow? Is voltage always from the left while resistance on the right? If you find voltage present and 4.7K like you mention at the end of this video - what exactly does it mean in terms of you found the problem? If a problem didn’t exist on that device - what should you see instead of voltage and 4.7K ohms? Am I asking this right?
I think I get what you're asking. So obviously "left" and "right" are arbitrary, but wherever you can meter the same voltage as the panel (or source, whether it be a module, power supply, zone, SLC, etc.) is putting out, you know your circuit is ok from the location you're at all the way back to the panel. And wherever you can meter your EOL, you know your circuit is good all the way to the end of the circuit. For that reason, when you can meter the panel in one direction and the EOL to the other, your whole circuit is clear. So what I would expect to see if I took down a device and it wasn't the source of my problem, would be either voltage OR resistance, but not both. Picture a string of horn strobes in a line and we label them A, B, C, D, E, F, & G. A is my first device, and G is the last one with the EOL on it. Let's say I have an open circuit at E, like a wire fell off of the device, but we didn't know that yet. If I went to C and took it down, I would see voltage to the left, and an open to the right. If I went to F, I would expect to see an open to the left, and my EOL to the right. But when I went to E, I would see voltage to the left and my EOL to the right, telling me that the rest of my circuit was intact and I was at the problem. Troubleshooting most circuits will consist of some variation of what I just explained, but troubleshooting SLC is a bit different because there can be t-taps and there is no EOL. In that case, you'd just see what devices weren't communicating with the panel and use common sense to break the circuit apart to see how it's run.
Joe Klochan thank you for your time Joe. This is a great explanation and definitely helps. Keep these videos coming. I especially enjoy the troubleshooting side.
Joe Klochan quick question - what happens if you get voltage from the panel at the device and you get let’s say 1.536 M ohms on the other end? Are you still at the problem or are you still far away from finding it?
@@MichaelBrianInc assuming you're troubleshooting a circuit that should have an end of line resistor (horn strobes, speakers, conventional zone, etc.) then you have not found your problem. Your 1.5 Meg (or whatever number you said) indicates an open circuit. You need to keep going towards the end of line until you can meter the resistor. If you're working on an SLC circuit it's completely different. I have a video where I explain what the different meter readings mean (might even be this one, I'm on my phone and am responding to a comment, so I can't exit this text field to check). The mega ohm reading is basically an open circuit.
Joe Klochan thanks Joe! Yes I was troubleshooting a NAC circuit. I figured that number meant nothing, but was a bit surprised as it was a device fairly close to my EOL. If I get back on site for dedicated troubleshooting the hunt continues....
hey Joe cant say how excited iam to see you back. these videos are incredible. i really appreciate everything you have and continue to do. I hope there is a future talk in your FA series on isolation modules
All your videos are great.
OL stands for Open Loop.
I recently learned that 👍👍👍
I’ve learned as much or more than I did taking fire safety systems at my local college lol well at the very least there’s more clarity here, or maybe I just understand better now 4 years later working in the field. Either way thanks Joe keep em coming
Hi Joe I enjoy your videos you are on point and very clear .I’m glad to see you back. Love your explanation this kind of knowledge you only get from experience .keep up the great work .
Watched this video one year ago. Came back to it after using metering methods discussed to solve open circuit and ground fault issues for a major grocery chain... They complained that the last service provider was unable to solve the issue for a number of years. Thanks 🙏🏾
Awesome, glad to hear it. Good job!
Thank you Joe 👍
These videos are astounding!! Thank you so much
thank you very much, great videos. very explicit.
Hi Joe,
Hope all is well and that you will read this.
I work at a property management company and recently we had a trouble pop up on one of our panels. Given what I found I'm surprised the trouble is new. Anyway, had a tech come look at it, he narrowed it down to a small area of the building but said he 'had no way to test' any further.
Needless to say, I got curious. We have multiple buildings with fire alarm systems and I am a 'do everything' maintenance tech so I started digging. Shortly into my search I found your videos. Your explanations and walk throughs of everything from the basic systems to the big picture really helped me piece this puzzle together.
In my experience I have done various 120/240v electrical projects and before your videos you could say I didn't really understand what fire panels do. So when I found out it's basically various electrical circuits that just have to monitor themselves I was all for it. Let me show you what I learned and how it helped me find the problem.
The panel itself is in the underground parking of a five building complex known as 'Phase 2'. It is an addressable panel with 5 SLCs and 6 Horn circuits, one horn is for the garage. The trouble was listed as '1002 Fire Trouble' (Note the device is listed as building only). The tech that came was able to tell us that is was on an IDC not a NAC so that helped somewhat. I did not pull anything off the panel itself because it was all four wire SLCs and a whole bundle after it left the main box and I didn't know what any of them were so I didn't dig into it much there. I found the control module for the building (had a trouble light lit on the front). Pulled it open, verified voltage on power in. Found an OL when I took of the 'loop' wires. On the other side of the module was what I can only assume to be data in. There is a 33kO resistor in line between the relays. The system looked like it was supposed to short on alarm, open on touble, so I was looking at the EOL of the data circuit for the building. As the note earlier suggests, I believe there was only one device on each SLC. From here on, we should be in conventional, one-in-one-out all in line devices.
Interesting note and question for Joe or anyone able to answer. It was noted that 24v smokes cannot be on a FMM because not enough power, this FZM (I believe although I have no indication from the module itself) gets power and yet we were only reading around 10V. Reading on this, at least some of the smokes had a dip switch to set them to 6-12V range so perhaps that solves the problem?
Funny note, the tech thought there was a short in the system when I know that would have caused an alarm and could clearly read an OL from the module.
So we started marching through boxes. The way the building is laid out we assumed the power started at the basement level of one staircase, followed the devices up and accross on the third floor hallway, and back down the other staircase to an exit on the first floor on the other side of the building. Near the panel there was a note saying EOLrs were at the pull station by that far exit door. It did not start like that. In the boxes there are red and black wires as well as brown and blue. It was hard to tell at first what they were but after confirming that they were just a continuation of the two wire circuit I started trying to read them the same. I noticed that we lost power after first the basement landing but had it in a random location on the other side of the building, super confusing. I tried to get organized and draw things out, follow the power. I isolated a smoke that was getting power but not letting it through. To be specific this detector is a Smoke Sensor 2w-b. It's worth noting that the positive leads are split on the mounting bracket and the device completes the circuit. I saw somewhere else someone wired one of these in with the positives on the two + terminals. When I pulled the smoke down the line in was on RA- and line out was on RA+. This truck me as odd so I put the positives on the terminals labeled as such. Go upstairs to first, we now have power. Panel still has trouble unfortunately and still did not have power for a significant portion of the building. We keep going and find another detector of the same style (second floor landing straight above the other one, so still pretty early in the circuit) (most of the detectors are very simple two wire photoelectric), It is also miswired on RA+/-. On other boxes before this it was always, Voltage one way and OL the other, or EOLr one way (3.9kO ish) no voltage the other. On this smoke I read voltage one way, EOLr the other. Like you said, I had found it. Switched the wires over and now had power to the rest of the building. My coworker tripped an alarm when putting a smoke back in (probably crossed wires on the screwdriver, this is why it's a good idea to silence the horns when doing this) That had to be manually reset at the module before the panel would clear but we found it!!
A bit more research later, turns out the RA terminals are for a 'Remote alarm LED'. Basically if you want a light to go on when this detector trips, that's where you wire it, it only has power when there is an alarm. This brings me back to how was this not in trouble from the moment someone did this? This took a long time (10+ man hours, 4 hour push from me today to deal with it) to find and I'm hoping to be more efficient in the future. Knowing that the smokes blink when they have power is a good start because I can go until I don't see blinking and work back from there.
Every panel is different, every situation is different, but your videos gave me the conceptual knowledge and troubleshooting basics to get through this and for that, I thank you. I hope you can continue to make videos in the future.
Couple questions if anyone can help.
How do you make sense of all the little boards and labels covered by wires and rats nests you may find at a panel?
Behind the module there was a box that looked like a mini module you mentioned but the wires were tied in on blocks to a circuit board. It had br/bl in and r/b out to the data input on the control/isolation module. What is that box/board?
I mentioned getting 10V off the control module when it does get 24V power, is this normal?
Another Control module I opened (for the next building in line) had a brief trouble when stopped, could've been related to the other testing we were doing. The 33kO EOLr did not have continuity. I know you mentioned that SLCs do not need an EOLr but would it be a good idea to replace it anyway?
These control modules had LEDs on the front for power/alarm | Smoke detector trouble | trouble and no ID turn dials. I'm assuming this is something that has to be programmed at install?
I hope these questions aren't too vague. I just wanted you to know how valuable this was towards helping me handle this problem. Thanks again.
- Nathan
Also I was testing the horn circuits output voltage for reference and was getting -5.0V almost exactly on all of them except one gave me -6.2V is this a problem?
This is on the output of a supervisory board that gets data and 24v
Nathan,
Good find, and thanks for the kind words! If you're not happy with what you're paid in your current role, you could easily get into the alarm industry. It would take most techs a long time to reach the level of competency you seem to have.
You asked a lot of questions, and I'm not sure I totally follow the situation. I think there's a bit of confusion because of some of the terminology you're using. For example, you said each building has a "control module", but I think what you mean is a monitor module. A control module is an output module, something that would turn on horns, speakers, or strobes. A monitor module is an input. Regardless, I know get what you're saying.
It seems when you say "loop", you're referring to the circuit with conventional devices on it?
I'm a little bit confused on certain aspects of this. For starters, what kind of panel do you have?
It seems you're correct that the 10 volts should be OK if the 2W-Bs can handle 12 volts. Good catch.
Your questions at the end:
What do you mean about making sense of the boards and the rats nests? Do you have pictures? I guess that's basically our job, to know what the boards do and then troubleshoot circuits. It's definitely much easier when the install was done with proper workmanship and labeling.
Your next question I have no idea what that is. A picture would be helpful.
10 volts isn't what I'd typically see, but if they have a 12 volt power supply, and the 2W-B can handle 12 volts, that's no problem then.
The next question about the 33k on the SLC I can't make sense of. I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
Send me an email at Joeklochan at Gmail. Put some pictures of what you're talking about and I'll try to help out. Good job though, I know people who have been in the industry for a long time that wouldn't have been able to fix that.
these videos help me so much! thank you
I know this is dated, but OL means Over Limit. The reading exceeds the capacity of the meter. Also, the setting with the diode symbol is the setting for checking proper function of a diode, i.e. continuity in one direction, no continuity when you reverse the leads.
This is an amazing reference for someone like me, who suddenly found himself in building management, and trying to pass on this knowledge to other engineers in Indonesia. Thank you, truly, for making this life-saving contents!
Thank you so much Joe, you rock man!
Great videos thanks for all you do
Is there any way you can do a video on explaining what a nac ckt is and an slc ckt. Also how they are related and work in adressable systems. Also would you consider doing videos on fire alarm codes at least basic codes.
I’ve always assumed it meant Over Load (IE beyond its reading ability)
Now would you do these same steps with all devices? Whether it was smokes on the circuit or even tampers off a backflow? Is voltage always from the left while resistance on the right? If you find voltage present and 4.7K like you mention at the end of this video - what exactly does it mean in terms of you found the problem? If a problem didn’t exist on that device - what should you see instead of voltage and 4.7K ohms? Am I asking this right?
I think I get what you're asking. So obviously "left" and "right" are arbitrary, but wherever you can meter the same voltage as the panel (or source, whether it be a module, power supply, zone, SLC, etc.) is putting out, you know your circuit is ok from the location you're at all the way back to the panel. And wherever you can meter your EOL, you know your circuit is good all the way to the end of the circuit. For that reason, when you can meter the panel in one direction and the EOL to the other, your whole circuit is clear.
So what I would expect to see if I took down a device and it wasn't the source of my problem, would be either voltage OR resistance, but not both. Picture a string of horn strobes in a line and we label them A, B, C, D, E, F, & G. A is my first device, and G is the last one with the EOL on it. Let's say I have an open circuit at E, like a wire fell off of the device, but we didn't know that yet. If I went to C and took it down, I would see voltage to the left, and an open to the right. If I went to F, I would expect to see an open to the left, and my EOL to the right. But when I went to E, I would see voltage to the left and my EOL to the right, telling me that the rest of my circuit was intact and I was at the problem.
Troubleshooting most circuits will consist of some variation of what I just explained, but troubleshooting SLC is a bit different because there can be t-taps and there is no EOL. In that case, you'd just see what devices weren't communicating with the panel and use common sense to break the circuit apart to see how it's run.
Joe Klochan thank you for your time Joe. This is a great explanation and definitely helps. Keep these videos coming. I especially enjoy the troubleshooting side.
Joe Klochan quick question - what happens if you get voltage from the panel at the device and you get let’s say 1.536 M ohms on the other end? Are you still at the problem or are you still far away from finding it?
@@MichaelBrianInc assuming you're troubleshooting a circuit that should have an end of line resistor (horn strobes, speakers, conventional zone, etc.) then you have not found your problem. Your 1.5 Meg (or whatever number you said) indicates an open circuit. You need to keep going towards the end of line until you can meter the resistor. If you're working on an SLC circuit it's completely different. I have a video where I explain what the different meter readings mean (might even be this one, I'm on my phone and am responding to a comment, so I can't exit this text field to check). The mega ohm reading is basically an open circuit.
Joe Klochan thanks Joe! Yes I was troubleshooting a NAC circuit. I figured that number meant nothing, but was a bit surprised as it was a device fairly close to my EOL. If I get back on site for dedicated troubleshooting the hunt continues....
How do you troubleshoot a ground fault?
Sir how to trouble open circuit addressable
Wafa rehmatullah born second april 1985