Beginning of the End? DARPA Dogfights A.I. vs Human
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- čas přidán 25. 04. 2024
- Mover and Gonky discuss recent news of human vs A.I. dogfights in real jets. www.defensenews.com/air/2024/...
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Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components. - Věda a technologie
I think the more important mission for an AI fighter pilot is wild weasel.
I see it going into combat first in a role like that.
Its basically a conventionally powered and armed project pluto..
I’m an engineer and AI has lots of promise, but also it’s way harder than people think. Lots we don’t know.
🤖Cylons!
@@WALTERBROADDUSwrong vipers bro
I think that humans babysitting AI will be the most prudent way for a while.
Agree , processes and procedures need to be ironed out and validated for all conditions and routines going forward and backward. You got to know what it is going and what it could do.
And even a lot of the AI that does work well is not "explainable". It's difficult to trust a black-box. Perhaps a pilot's role will transition to the human-in-the-loop for AI "glass boxes".
You want SkyNet and Terminators? ‘Cause this is how you get SkyNet and Terminators.
This is much like Ace Combat 7 become a reality as the UAV are becoming vunerable. Even dogfighting the UAV is becoming harder.
Dammit, beat me to it! XD
Well if going to be technical, technically Ace combat 6 had combat UAV's first and that was in 2007.
I thought that drones taking over manned aircraft was the biggest sea change in military tactics and ops but now I believe its thousands of fpv drones over the battlefield. I cant imagine how difficult this is going to be for infantry in the future.
It sure is reassuring when I'm on my way to graduate and try to fly fighters 😢.
You’re far too distant from that goal to even be worried about that. Focus on getting a pilot slot first
Well. The moment that there isn't any need for a human, you can save a lot of weight. No need for oxygen systems, eject seat and tons of instruments. It could pull more Gs etc
maybe like 2000 lb worth total
Also When there's no need for human and the managerial class is removed, the technocrats will play asteroids with the masses like fish in a barrel..
Can't agree more. Think about how the layout of all the avionics communication buses, the topology of the whole thing not having to be centered around the cockpit, Kinda curious how this works with the X-47B coz it's already happening.
Yeah, massive bonuses for losing the Pilot, for pulling more G and weight saving, Still need to build automated Factories to churn them out, then there's the maintenance side of things. Remember reading about them already test flying F-16's being flown as part of a wing years ago in some Future Air Combat book. Gist was there was one Human controlled plane with Ai wingmates being directed by the Human Pilot.
@@ryansta Automated factories AC7 plotline
Getting a lot closer to Patton's quote about wonder weapons coming true. At least in aviation.
The article didn't even explain the F-16 VISTA designation correctly, which is Variable In-Flight Stability Test Aircraft, which got its program start in 1988 and has been through a few evolutions since then. The same aircraft flying today is quite a bit different than it was in 1988, with different test program functionality.
And so, Skynet was born. But thirty years later it would go rouge after getting that e-mail from some Nigerian prince.
Gentlemen. Thank you. The best explanation I’ve heard yet of the current state of the technology, and it’s challenges.
This is literally the plot of Macross Plus.
So Maverick could wipe the floor with a 5th gen fighter in an F-14?
I 'm so happy to you picking up this topic. I've been always thinking about this. My primary opinion is that the AI fighters are having a little bit of versatile advantage. but if we crack out them, only to jam the connection protocol and any other IT elements. this is primary my opinion.
I do wonder if any test pilots are going to lose their lives when the AI does something unexpected at the wrong time and there's a mid-air.
I also wonder if there are going to be AI flown aircraft doing BVR before BFM - if the difference on information available is closer it might be the more attainable goal.
Great episode. And offered good clarity. Seems to me that it'd be something like the EOTS, but it'd immediately spark an arms race of spoofing and jamming of sensors in a way that eyes can only be by sun, clouds & GLOC.
Good discussion
AI in BVR engagement where there is a multiple flights involved would be more useful because of all the sensors and datalink inputs management, then BFM.
So it'll probably be be some kind of DAS? Multi-wave, for sure. Crazy stuff, cheers!
I think for junking from a missile and helping knife a way through , it could be useful with some EO tech.
"Sooner or later, they won't need pilots at all. Pilots that need to eat, sleep, take a piss...the future is coming, and you're not in it." - Admiral Cain - Top Gun: Maverick
Wow amazes me so many have not heard of Australia MQ28A Ghost Bat AI drone has been flying for over 3 years. those drones are already here lol.
..yes, until some dude jam all external comm signals and AI goes bust to dust..
@@eccosabanovic1589 Someone has no clue on the systems. some are closed off and the AI does not just go dead if external comms are blocked. that is not AI that is remote controlled lol.
Judging by the video, this aircraft does not have any sensors for close combat. Most likely, some separate long-range combat procedures based on radar data are being worked out.
I mentioned this when commenting on one of your previous videos, but there is an anime called Yukikaze about a fighter pilot fighting in a war with aliens whose aircraft is equipped with an onboard AI named Yukikaze that acts as tactical support and can take control of the aircraft in emergencies.
I'd love to see you react to the air combat scenes in the show. It is allegedly very accurate in terms of comms lingo, procedure and most technical details (the aerodynamics of the aircraft is questionable, but they did that on purpose) as the studio consulted the Japan Air Self Defense Force and even recorded the sounds of F-15Js taking off and landing to get the sounds of the aircraft in the show accurate.
With the camera systems on the F35 enabling pilots to look through the air-frame to track and target enemies, wouldn't this carry over to an AI aircraft being able to track an adversary in a dogfight also?
I for one want to see the increased use of the pejorative “chrome job” when referring to unmanned hostile aircraft.
The importance of the nuke is only a small bit more important than UAVs.
From what was said in this segment, the test vehicle may have taken a page from the F-35, where the test vehicle has a minimum of 6 cameras for 3-axis minimum blindspot coverage. The AI may have binocular vision, which means the vehicle may have the capability of depth preception.
I am not sure about the binocular/stereo depth perception part. In the air the features are less prominence, which makes traditional points matching rather difficult comparing to land driving scenarios. That's partially why IR and radar works in different spectrums or active are more widely used. Plus recent computer vision development don't explicitly rely on single frame point correspondence that much any more. So stereo vision won't provide that much advantage any more. Sensor fusion when done right is really powerful.
It may be an excellent opportunity for fighter pilots to work from home.
A 20G airframe would be really difficult to beat.
*Laughs in AIM-9*
It would rate like a yelpie
@@CWLemoinelaughs in HOBS
9:45 Sounds perfect for AI to be integrated into the F-35's EODAS at some point because then you have a system with that data, and sensor fusion in general.
What more could the AI do if there wasn't a (g limited) human in the cockpit?
use the force Mover !!! lol!
I want to know more about this T-38 taking down a Raptor! Isn't there an A-10 out there with a Raptor kill too? I've always loved the T-38/F-5 ever since I was a kid watching Top Gun. They look like the Ferraris of the sky.
Technically, in the F35 you are working with Mark II Eyeballs, guven the fancy helmet. Looking through your aircraft could come in handy, especially with the HOB abilities of the AIM-9, no?
I think you’re right. As you leave the world of FULL simulation to start fielding “controlled experiments,” one now adds in AI running on actual hardware IN THE VEHICLE then rerun the same tests - i.e., you’re letting the AI control the flight in a FULLY CONTROLLED, PERFECT KNOWLEDGE fight (ie mocks up “having perfect sensors”.).
You’re right - it is a very structured approach to testing control systems and migrating them to the real world.
🤖Cylon fighter Vs. Vipers....
I think developing a 360 degree computer vision system and then some kind of algorithm for best response given some input parameters (it doesn't necessarily have to be AI) is going to be relatively easy. The hard part, and I think you see this with self-driving in Tesla, is going to be target recognition through those sensors and making sure that those sensors and their image recognition algorithms are robust enough to defeat an adversary that might employ electronic and optical countermeasures.
Wow you are so far behind lol. Australia already has AI tech that recognises targets and tracks them, is in military equipment now also.
Australia has AI droens and with AI swarm that targets and tracks enemies, 1 is in Ukraine war now and seen it fly in to a Russian tank hatch and blow it up.
@@nedkelly9688 you're talking about a different situation which is orders of magnitude more simple than a dogfight. It's not as simple as pointing the velocity vector at target and then crashing into it.
@@anonimous_user7318 Haha good try mate, who said they just target then crash in to it.
The AI drone of Australia has a soft kill and a hard kill and it does not crash in to it.
Ever heard of the MQ8 AI helicopter of USA, it also has Australia target recognition and tracking software in it.
Ghost Bat AI can hit targets but will not crash in to them lol..
@@nedkelly9688 Again, you still give more simple situations than a dogfight where you need to be able to reliably identify the kinematics of the enemy aircraft using sensors that can easily be disrupted, identify if you or the enemy plane are within a WEZ, and create complex guidance instructions based on those inputs. This is a more complex process than just identifying ground targets, loitering above them, and engaging.
@@anonimous_user7318 Yup, it is a dynamic optimization problem which requires a lot of compute and smart algo design when the compute resource is limited. Processing 360 high def video and other sensor modality inputs take a lot of bandwidth as well.
Did we learn nothing from James Cameron?
13 min video, mover chats for 10 poor gonky sitting there like the shy kid
We divide segments. That’s why it’s on this channel. Would you prefer we talk over each other?
Just imagine how good you’d be bfm’ing if you knew perfectly the location and state of the other jet at every moment. What a joke. Thanks guys for bringing some sanity to the hype.
Is Gonky going to be a AGENT 😊
Skynet getting some new toys
Hi . I just wanna say you can comment on Attack to H3 movie if you want
Tanx for your videos
Someone here mentioned 'borrowing' from Fat Amy's page to track the opponent... Heck, just put an IRST ball on top of the head rest 😁
You know somewhere written on the walls of a Russian ready room is a silhouette of a F22 with the "Толстушка Эми" descriptor below...
So... The wrong jet?
F35 = Fat Amy
So... The wrong jet?
F35 = Fat Amy
"The South Korean John Connor" :)
Sure they use satelite feed and 360 sensor fusion like fat amy use. I bet they gonna use this in some new UCAV like Kratos, another loyal wingman or the B-21 Raider some B-52 new upgrate
We know that the airframes can take more stress than the human inside. If a plane is designed with AI first mentality it will be interesting what the capabilities are.
I won't post the link because it will get filtered, but if you google X-62 and look at the video results there's a video called "X-62 VISTA ACE flight b-roll". I don't know if it's legit but it's 30 seconds of stuff I don't understand but definitely shows somebody merging with somebody in a dogfight.
The headlines I do see are usually misleading. I remember the news covering how a Eurofighter Typhoon beat an F22 only to show, from the Typhoon's own camera, that the F22 had drop tanks under its wings. Well, no stealth for stealth fighter, then.... Regarding the AI testing, I imagine the AI would have to react differently with a human being on board than it would as a drone. So, I'm wondering weather they're testing an autopilot AI, a drone AI, or both. If it flies just like a human in every case, than you're losing a part of the AI advantage.
I wonder how much he RCS changes wearing EFT on a Raptor? It's obviously enough to undertake low Observable EFT development.
A guns only F-22 vs.Typhoon fight would be awesome to see. Set it up all WVR. rely solely on pilot skill and aircraft kinematics.
Anyone see the movie stealth?
I think the human allows for certain things that can’t be replaced by a computer that computes in 0 and 1. It’s that human aspect in warfare. If it weren’t for that case, then we would all be numbers on the battlefield. Maybe I’m not a pilot and I don’t understand the inherent risk, but as a former infantrymen, I rather trust a human pilot.
How much lighter or how many more weapons could the aircraft carry without equipment for a pilot? If it could beat 80% of pilots then...
We all remember the last time Vista software came out….😬
The idea has been around for a while now for IFF munitions that do not require targeting from the launching platform in order to go out and find a target. I can see this being a much bigger deal than an A.I.-controlled aircraft. Imagine a missile with visual, thermal, and radar sensors that allow complete coverage of the 3D space around it. Now imagine it is equipped with an A.I. and a complete library of the specifications of all friendly units. All you would need to do is fire the thing into the air and the missile’s onboard A.I. would compare whatever targets are up there to its library and, if there isn’t a match, it would set it as a target and destroy it, all without the target ever knowing. Additionally, if the sensors have a high enough resolution, they could sense changes in the target aircraft’s control surfaces immediately, potentially allowing the missile to compensate for evasive maneuvers instantaneously.
I think we're a ways away from trusting unsupervised AI to kill things
@appa609 you could be right. I would have said the same thing five years ago. However, given the speed at which A.I. has advanced in just the past two years, now I'm not so sure. It might be more reasonable to say that we HOPE we are a ways away from allowing A.I. to kill on its own. 😅
Basically, was it a fair fight or is it 'apples to apples' comparison.
I gunned a big mouth viper in about 20 seconds while flying Fat Amy. So it’s not impossible. Granted, the viper pilot was still a Lt, straight out of the b-course…..
Sure Jan. 😂
" Flying is for droids " :D
AI doesn't have to worry about passing out from high G maneuvers when dog fighting. It'll use that against a manned jet. But when do dog fights happen when we got weapons that can knock you out of the sky many miles away?
That threat is WAAAAY over played. Aircraft have g limits too.
Yes the airframe has G limits but most of the time those are higher than a human pilot can handle for long periods of time and a jet with no pilot doesn't have to worry about how long they can hold those Gs. AI pilots will be able to keep a consistent path and any high G maneuvers without stuttering or lagging like a human pilot would. They would be able to dodge and evade a human pilot a hell of a lot more efficiently and effectively. Now they may not be able to avoid other means of defense such as laser weapons or hyper sonic weapons but human pilots, it definitely won't be anywhere near easy. They're just testing these AIs right now but when they're fully operational, I believe they will own the skies.
Name one jet right now that has a higher G limit than humans can handle.
And stuttering and lagging? What?
The fact they dont metion who won, is absolutely proof that AI lost!
My conspiracy theory is the F35, with its centralized computer and DAS, was designed to be AI ready from the factory. Literally just needs a software update.
Mover states that a person was in the aircraft and allowed the AI to do it all, but that has to be a little disturbing to be in the cockpit and letting someone else fliy?
The removal of the human aspect of a flight system opens up fascinating possibilities for new capabilities.
No organic limitations on any system/movement. Some truly next level things are possible when you do t need to build around that lump of flesh and its limitations.
OMG go look at Australia MQ28A Ghost Bat it is a fully AI combat jet drone and has all these features. USA so far behind they had to use a manned jet and do not even trust the AI to fly by itself and needed a human in the back seat still.
Ghost Bat has no human controls to fly it all they can do is key in instructions and the AI does it all.
@nedkelly9688 to be fair, this was more an exercise in software capabilities within certain parameters. No reasonable person would believe the goal would be to simply retrofit ancient spaceframes with new tech and call it good.
But I do agree the US is well behind in the tech sector at this point.
@@demwillams8898 Yea see USA isn't always first to develop some tech as do not see it fitting their military programme. like hypersonics USA wasn't really behind but did not chase it as hard as Russia and China.
Australia ahead in AI drones as saw a problem with low popualation and not filling ADF roles so went big in military drones.
Was reading up on AI and another reason Australia was ahead was because USA had a strict law and congress issue stopping USA using AI drones in combat. not wanting humans taken out of the equation.
Then Australia had a less retriction on it. was even a government funded university study on AI and war ethics and Australian government and ADF walked out of it within a few months of a 1 year plan.
Like this AI of USA had a human pilot inside it the whole time. why if you trust the AI is no need for a huma in it.
You can't even fly Australia Ghost Bat at all and a human custodian has to type in commands and AI does it all.
@nedkelly9688 yeah I agree. US is quite far behind in many areas at this point. Some more than others. Politics and a senior leadership structure that is simply too old to fully comprehend modern combat needs and the roadmap needed for superiority within those needs.
Much of America has blinders on, thanks in large part to the lack of any truly objective mainstream media.
It's an interesting time to be alive.
AI will not need to keep its head on a swivel. It will be like a flying spider with more visual input. Studying AI in combat is essential because our enemies will certainly use it because of the money and time it takes to train pilots will get zeroed out. It’s incredible tech and a bit scary. The future is now. Whether we like it or not, humans are going to need to adapt to AI or we will all get left behind.
The Chinese claim to have been doing this for awhile and claiming that their AI beats their human pilots.
Have you ever heard of cameras?
I have. Cute that you think it’s that easy.
Yikes. A human pilot is no longer need. I get that. AI has taken control.
You are going to be AI's wingman.
The next generation of Chips will not be based on electrons (transistors) but light waves. They will literally process information at the speed of light and will be immune to electromagnetic interference. No jamming. Still in development but it's coming. It's only a matter of programming the jet with correct manoeuvring...
Isn't dogfighting a thing of the past with today's and future missiles most fights will be BVR
They've been saying that since the Korean War ended.
an AI plane does have several advantages though:
1) no human; the can max/over G the plane however it likes
2) and doesn't at least the F-35 have 360° vision (well, actually a sphere) so it would be able to see, detect and track the enemy plane in BFM/WVR ?
It just has to do a lot of fights to get enough data to become good. Surely, just like with humans, training on the ground "inside the computer" would help a lot, but also real air2air fights.
Just think of Chess or nowadays Go: after enough data/learning the AI is pretty much unbeatable.
1) G Limits are based on the aircraft, fuel/stores, not the pilot as currently designed. G-Limits also matter a lot less in a world of high off boresight missiles.
2) 360* vision is not necessarily 360* search and track. That's extremely difficult to do, especially when maneuvering.
@@CWLemoine 1) true, but an AI doesn't have a body it needs to preserve so it can potentially do 9Gs all day long (well, as long as the jet holds out^^)
2) yeah, you're right. Vision and Tracking are different kind of beasts.
Thanks!
Love watching your videos btw 👍
No one needs to do 9Gs all day long. There's no point. This isn't the Battle of Britain.
@@CWLemoine LOL, true enough!
So glad you guys are agreeing about Fat-Amy. And AI is a social joke, they are trynig to repeat enough times for us to, «du...» believe.
As a private pilot, as an electrical engineer, subject matter, expert on electromagnetics, and many years of aerospace experience with other industries, I will not be flying in commercial airlines anymore, if I can help it. I am not alone in this. My peers in that industry would not fly either. And I hope you guys understand why now as well.
Watch the movie idiocracy if you have not
Would you care to explain?
Ok
@@TheHolyBlackKnight
DEI
It only takes one knucklehead on a team to potentially ruin things for everyone. Especially if they are in management.
@@TheHolyBlackKnight if you are an aerospace engineer, who has experience, you can understand. Otherwise it’s very difficult to explain.
The simplest explanation I can give you: business people with the brain of a six-year-old are running the world and building these things. Connect the dots now.
Might want to read the article again. It clearly says "starts at a disadvantage" and "defensively". So it was almost certainly defensive BFM to start the sets.
"For two weeks, VISTA flew against an F-16 in a variety of scenarios, including situations where it started at a disadvantage against the human-flown jet. VISTA started off by flying defensively to build up confidence in its flight safety, before switching to intense offensive maneuvers. Valpiani said the jets flew aggressively at speeds of up to 1,200 miles per hour and within 2,000 feet of one another, including carrying out nose-to-nose passes and vertical maneuvering."
Sounds like they did defensive, offensive, and high aspect.
Darpa set AI robots against a group of Marines, robots lost. Fat Elect has a video on it. AI lost to ridiculous tactics.. but lost is the big word. Computers and ai are overrated. My money would always be on the Olds, Dolittles, Bongs and Boyds and even the John Conners of South Korea. How does ai fare against Col Boyd's bet?
Cellphones were once the size of a toaster and completely unreliable. Let the gvmnt throw some 100s of billions of dollars at it for a decade and get back to us.
Jamming A.I with different kinds of light to blind it's sensors, permanently or temporarily will be developed 100%. EMP missiles will be a thing against AI and loyal wingmen. Question, why doesn't the F35 have thrust vectoring like the F22. Also why is it desirable to buy more F-16 and F-15 aircraft, but not produce an improved F22, "The King of Dogfighters"???
Existant production lines.
they can already do that to humans, lol; didn't think that one through
AI is just pattern recognition. AI neural networks can recognize these patterns WAY faster than a human….that said, the AI neural network is only as good as the data it received during its training. It will take time to develop for BFM and this activity is part of the AI training process. AI works on probability, the better the training the higher the probability of a positive outcome.
@C.W. Lemoine can you & Gonky & company do a video where you spitball the potential advantages / disadvantages of FUTURE generation A.I.-only aircraft? Like saving nearly a thousand pounds removing all physical space, instruments, climate control & oxygen systems meant to support a human pilot? Eliminated need to make the radar / ECM systems radio-safe for human physiology? Ability for future airframe designs engineered to support EXTREMELY high G-maneuvers? Significantly reduced civilian support for conflict if "drone craft" are shot down vs the shootdown & capture/kill of human aviator(s)? etc. Would love to hear your thoughts! AND - What are the DISadvantages? TY!