Miami Dice
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- *NO SPOILERS* Tom Vasel, Zee Garcia, and Sam Healey take a first look at the newest addition to the Legacy family style of games from Plaid Hat Games!
00:00 - Introduction
02:30 - Game overview
05:17 - Thoughts on components
08:19 - Final thoughts
Buy great games at www.gamenerdz.com/
Find more reviews and videos at www.dicetower.com
BGG Link: www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgam... - Hry
I appreciate Sam's comments about having to learn a new game in addition to legacy considerations. And eagerly look forward to more "reports" on how the immersion develops. But I also like that you're all trusting your instincts and personal experience apart from any hype. That's great.
I appreciate that they actually gave their real thoughts on the game, and didn't try to temper them just to please the company or the designer. For me, it's ok that there might be a big of a "learning curve" or intro section to the game that you have to get through before the game really starts coming alive.... as long as it's a new game. If this was Pandemic Legacy and there was a slog through the beginning, that would be horrible. But since this is a new game, you're spending a lot of time learning the game, and learning how the legacy system will work into it, so it's a longer intro/tutorial.
I'm still excited for it, though the time sink per game has me a little concerned. Hopefully there is a "save" option in case you run out of hours before the chapter/scenario is done.
Thanks for a great, solid, truthful early look at the game. I look forward to hearing how/if the feelings change!
Hope you record your playthrough!
Here's the thing. I've seen and heard people go all crazy for Seafall because it's a Legacy game. It's like this game is going to be awesome automatically, because it's legacy game. Sam had a point that these are wrong expectations, and you should not get a game just because it's legacy game.
Tom was saying that the game starts slow, but he sees some promise there in a future (because it's a legacy), but that's not how it's supposed to be. You should like the game as it is. You should like every play through of the game because it's a good game, and then the Legacy is there just to spice things up. It's a game first, Legacy second.
If you were not liking the first couple games, the game is not for you. Tom has said it himself in the past that the game needs to be good from the beginning, and he doesn't want to wait for 10 games for it to become good. But here he is doing exactly that, just because it's a Legacy game.
Love this, the first impressions video concept is fantastic. I think that as you keep this up, over time it will help us (consumers) make a better informed decision when it comes to purchasing a game like this (especially a legacy game). Thanks guys, you are on a roll.
Gratz on #200 episode
And suddenly Sam is the only one making sense. The prologue exists because unlike Risk and Pandemic, you don't have any idea of how to play the game. The "anticipation" of a Legacy game is a large part of the fun. If you don't get excited looking at those 6 sealed boxes and the vast empty ocean in front of you, then you're doing Legacy games wrong. This isn't the "first 30 minutes of a movie"..because you're not 25% done yet. So what seems to be the problem here is the playtime, where Pandemic takes an hour to play, this one seemingly takes twice as long, and rather than judge by "sessions" you're judging by hours. Pandemic's January had an event, but it wasn't until the major event at the end of the first 1/3 of the campaign that things really starting changing.
Actually (and I realise we are in the minority here), that major event was met with a collective groan from the majority of our group. We stuck it out for another four or five month campaigns, but we've put it down and nobody has asked to play it since. We have played regular Pandemic a few times since though.
I really liked the look of Sea fall, but I don't hold out any hope of the Legacy aspect saving a drab game.
Cthulhu will probably turn up around game 4 and start dishing out madness tokens. "SURPRISE!!"
looking forward to hearing more about how the game evolves
I guess it is about time for a new intro where Zee is also mentioned, right?
And it only took 4 years, not bad at all.
It is still taking: I was not commenting on a new intro but rather suggesting they make a new one. And four years? I had no idea, I'm quite new to the Dice Tower channel.
Zee's not in the intro because his appearances are sporadic. The Miami Dice segments tend to feature "big deal" games. Since many of those highly-anticipated games are deluxe in nature, they often don't appeal to Zee's game preferences, he leaves them to Tom and Sam.
+Steve Gale That is a good reason indeed. Still, I think it would be nice to have an intro for when Zee makes an appearence, which is also not that rare, for what I've watched. Thanks for the reply :-)
I'd be for that, but I'm pretty sure the intros are time jobs that Tom farms out.
If the first four hours of the game aren't very engaging, I'm definitely concerned. Any game (or book, or movie) that requires such a huge time investment really should grab you early, IMO. Dramatic ebbs and flows are inevitable in any story, but when it comes to pacing, you don't want to wait too long before you deliver that first "wow" moment. All that said, I definitely remain interested in the game and look forward to your future thoughts.
Yes, Pandemic Legacy immediately kicks the "CODA" thing in the middle of the first month... and right there, you know it's gonna be a wild ride.
They simply dislike the game, but can't admit it to themselves yet :--)
Yeah, it sounded pretty underwhelming ^^
You guys have a great charisma going on. I like all three of ya!
Hey, thanks for the input guys!
Really excited about this game, was holding off on getting Pandemic Legacy. Then, I saw the design. Drab. Then, I saw some of the deeper dives from Gen Con. Had cooled a bit on it. Then, saw this. Guess I'm ordering Pandemic Legacy.
Man I am so pumped for this game!
I doubt I could ever get a group together for this game but I love the concept. Your early reports are certainly not encouraging. Well done review regardless of the game so far. I feel like you should have showed as much of the components without spoiling though.
Sounds like the hype-success has strong potential to let down a lot of people for this one - when it should be a more carefully considered buy, rather than instabuy.
It sounds like Zee got in on this one because it was Legacy and he loved Pandemic: Legacy, but really he's not the ideal target for the game (too Euro-y with a long commitment and not visually drawing him in). Whereas the non-legacy aspect of the game SHOULD be OK to good for Tom (nautical + conflict good, story great, pick up and deliver possible pitfall), and pretty good for Sam (nautical Euro with potential for conflict). So your first impressions reflect how it's responding to your tastes. (And I would expect Jason to like it. Me too, most likely.)
It's going to be interesting to see how the meta-story of the reactions to the game develop overall.
I need a wow moment at the beginning. Like the opening scene of the last of us
First impressions look positive guys, thanks for all your input! :D
Do they? Their full impressions are admittedly incipient, but the guys are underwhelmed. For a game with this price tag, time investment, and perishability, that's not good.
So this is what you planned for the 200th episode. Great choice
My group is waiting for our copy to arrive. Been staying cautiously optimistic about this one, though sounds like it will be a good game for me off the start as I kind of enjoy mid to heavy euros, but some of the other people, I don't think they will enjoy it that much. Hopefully you guys will also be doing play though videos of this.
The player that won twice seemed to have much more fun than the other two. Sounds like the kind of game I avoid.
Even tough they might not like it, it is a legacy game, you really feel like finishing it hahaha. Great video as usual :)
So it is Scythe, but at least Seafall has the promise of getting better :)
Great choice for number 200!
Is there much of a rulebook that you read first or does the prologue actually teach you the game mechanics and rules?
It amuses me to see folks in the comments making snap judgments about the game when the review basically says 'wait and see'.
I think there is a big difference between legacy games that are based off of pre-existing games (Pandemic: Legacy) and legacy games that are built from the ground up (Seafall and Charterstone). With legacy games like Pandemic: Legacy, the legacy is an extra aspect, where as with games like Seafall and Charterstone the legacy IS the game. The legacy builds a the game through the story. I don't know if I'm making perfect sense lol...
Is this what Zee looks like when you make him play 4 hours of the same boardgame? He looks so sad! Anyway, thanks for the impression guys. I am very much looking forward to this. My tastes tend to match pretty closely with Sam's, so I anticipate liking this game a lot more than Zee.
Any updates regarding that last game you played, guys? :)
Archipelago/Merchants & Marauders Legacy? Sounds like a mix of both.
Seems like all of them (at last Tom and Zee) only keep playing it (after 4h already) because they hope there is a good experience somewhere. You know, like it is a hyped Legacy game, you cant judge after "only" 4h of gametime!
The fundamental game system probably wont change in the next say 4 games and i am not ready to invest about 10h (maybe i wont even invest the initial 4h they did) till the game maybe turns out to be good. I can play so many great games where i enjoyed the first game already and i am having as much fun after the 50th.
I've never played Risk Legacy but can someone tell me how a competitive legacy game works?
I think the player who is behind in a game would lose more in the next game and vice versa (and the effect snowballs), but how does the game handle the player balance?
Also, I don't think players always (or frequently) lose would enjoy playing it ten or more times.
I'm definitely waiting for reviews of completed plays on this one. The energy of the demos at GenCon were in stark contrast to the games of Dead of Winter going on at the next tables over. In perhaps a more appropriate contrast, Scythe players were much more engaged in their games. SeaFall players all seemed to be falling asleep. I'm hopeful the story and revealed mechanics are just a slow burn with an excellent payoff!
I'm mostly curious if the game will be selfnuking like Pandemic Legacy, if it is I think I'll pass it, and watch all the spoilers in the world, like I did with pandemic
I would argue that this video had a few minor spoilers - however, it is hard to avoid with so little prior information going in.
Will you be doing a spoiler free thoughts after you have completed the game?
What is your opinion on player count? Since it's a Legacy game for up to 5 players, I'd hate to start it and then 1/2 through wish we were playing with a different player count. For TIME stories we didn't much care, because after this module you can change it to the next and with Pandemic Legacy, we played Pandemic enough to know we wanted all 4 players for that. This, however, is a new game with nothing to go by and it would maybe a little frustrating to play with a player count that just doesn't work well.
It's perhaps a bit like D&D in a sense. You might read books about the powerful mages like Elminster, and sit down with that expectation, but your 1st level mage is going to run away a lot until he starts to get up in levels... and some find that boring. :)
If I hadn't preordered this, I may have held off given these preliminary observations. Four hours of wait and see ... Might not be sellable to a lot of groups.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I feel like more of a proper overview of the game itself would have worked better here. I recently picked up my first legacy game with Risk Legacy and after reading through the rule book and getting a look at the components it seems like an overview could be done to both it and Pandemic Legacy without spoiling too much. Which leads me to believe we could have had the same done with Seafall. I'm hearing something about exploring islands...well explain that a little more. I'm sure the explanation would be in the rule book and not considered a spoiler. Same with other components of the game.
Tom's Stone Age Box seems much thinner than mine.. Is that an illusion or is there a thinner boxed edition?
Thinner edition - it was the first one. Squashes the cup a bit.
Thanks. I still think I'd prefer that, haha.
Deferred gratification is all well and good, but with so many good and fun games on the market that you could play instead, shouldn't the moment to moment enjoyment of any game be up there. Being a Legacy game should add to the fun of playing a really good game, not be the carrot that keeps you at table in the hope that things might improve by opening a few more envelopes.
I don't know there might be a Back Talk topic in there somewhere.
How many players u guys had for your games? 3, 4 or 5? also may be it would've been better if u guys waited for a few more sessions before posting initial thoughts no?
Then they wouldn't be "initial" thoughts no?
Looks like a fun game.
So what your saying this is like Black Fleet Legacy ?
Lets wait, perhaps gets good after a few play sessions.
Can I play it with two players?
I know it says 3-5, but is there any reason why it wouldn't work with 2?
Boardgamegeeks forums say 2 player would basically be an engine deck race, which depending on the players that might be alright. The more players you have, the more confrontation over resources (which don't scale) you have.
I switched my pre-order to Captain Sonar. It sounds like I'm more likely to get an 8 player game to the table then this unfortunately. I was expecting a less heavy game I think.
Waiting for the FULL review, maybe it's a slow starter.
As I've said in the past about: the underlying game has to be good for Legacy experience to be worth it. Otherwise legacy can just try to mask a mediocre game. Who would really want to go through the motions and hope it gets better?
Pandemic Legacy works because Pandemic is a fantastic game to begin with. I agree with your point - I think it's important to develop a great game first and then work out a Legacy route or have a really top notch designer make a Legacy game from scratch. Seafall might still turn out great, but Daviau has mainly made Legacy games from existing franchises.
It must be tiring that you need to play dozens of games just to form "thoughts after the first play" of a game, especially if the first impression of the game is disappointing or okay.
I don't mind a slow burn in a Legacy-style game personally
So you were duped into playing Trading in the Mediterranean Legacy. ;)
I am still wondering ... isn't legacy inherently better for a co-op ? How do they deal with catch-up mechanics in such a long game ? rich get richer ?
Definitely agree with your take on this. I was in the Navy and actually sailed seas (didn't trade any linens YAWN) and this game looks crazy boring. Not getting the nautical feel from this at all. I don't like the idea of writing on everything with a sharpee to customize it. This makes the game look messy, unprofessional or like some prototype Kickstarter PnP thing. Wow they played this four 4 hours and Zee says "ok". Thanks for the review! You saved me some money. Pushing cubes in the 1700s doesn't sound like fun.
can i play this game with only two player
How does this compare to Risk Legacy?
Merchant and Marauders Legacy then?
How many great video games would you consider great if you just judged them based on their tutorials? In a regular board game, it's irrelevant if you suck your first few plays learning the system. No big deal; you just sweep the board and start a new game. With legacy, you can't do that. I appreciate that they are providing an opportunity to ease into the game before overwhelming you with legacy effects. It would suck if you just grokked the game after a few plays but were already so far behind that you couldn't realistically come back or that you missed out on neat options. My 2c.
I think if I'd thrown four hours of my life at a video game and had yet to feel anything that gripped me, then I'd be moving on. I think that "it's a Legacy game, so it will be different after we've played it a few nights" is just not going to persuade most groups that it's worth the effort.
If you picked up a book and read a few chapters, but were left underwhelmed and already a little frustrated by a plot development, would you continue reading?
Right, but most board games you can play a friends copy, or a copy at a con an decide you like it and then buy your own. There is a large play before you buy component to most board games. Even if you don't have many board game friends you can get a great feel with watch it played or radho runs through or a dice tower live play, with a game like this it is hard to learn enough about the game without spoilers.
If a video game is not fun in the first hour I am not playing more, similar with a board game, if I don't like my first play or MAYBE my second play, I am done with that game if I have any other options.
I'll second the request for a play-through. I really want to see the story, but I don't want to pull teeth to drag people to play it.
I will also add: I remember Pandemic Legacy had a great start. I hope (from what you're telling us) that the game will pick up sooner in the story rather than later.
Keep in mind that one of the people here essentially won't play games that take longer than 60-90 minutes (and 90 is a stretch). The other has a well-deserved reputation for disliking euro-y games that have any sort of complexity...or at least new games of this sort that require more than one game to suss out. The guy who likes it the most is someone whose favorite game is one which is complex, has a lot of depth, and takes 4+ hours to play.
Knowing these three as well as I do, it's pretty clear what kind of game this is.
This seams to have the same thing that Risk Legacy did.
Legacy in a competitive game causes butt hurt.
Sam was very critical on Risk Legacy because he lost games early to Tom he though he should have won. Specifically calling out someone leaving the game early which gave Tom the win. (Which can ruin almost any game if we are being honest)
Here, Sam is winning, so everyone else is being hyper critical and he likes it a lot.
If you don't want your butt to hurt, you can sit on a soft chair while playing this game.
What's with the hats?
You must be new here? Tom always wears unique hats.
+Justin Price spose it's to hide his complete lack of personality?
You must REALLY be new here... Tom was pretty calm in this episode, usually he's very animated and full of personality
No Man's Sea :D
I don't want 3+ videos with impressions. C'mon, spoil me. Post the playthrough videos! :D
Legacy seems like a rather easy way to brush up mediocre games.
Hah. This guy thinks making a Legacy Game is easy. That's cute.
It is. Just add zombies and tear up some cards. yay legacy!
Yup. Just add stickers, sealed envelopes, and instructions to tear up components. Bingo! You've got a legacy game.
Risk and Pandemic. 2 games way past their prime they try to doll up with legacy mechanics, but Risk is still Risk. Legacy Monopoly and Sorry next?
Had high hopes for this game, but after seeing this I can't say I have any desire now to play it. The time investment, the monetary investment, the poor components, the bland artwork, as well as trying to convince a (possibly difficult-to-get-together) group to stick with the 'meh' story beyond the seemingly-reported 4 hours (to start getting better) is too much to ask in the crowding board game market... even if it is a 'Legacy' game.
this is not usually the case but id have to agree with sam on this one, though they seem to be all in the same boat, just seems to slow for tom and too long for zee, but yes please try your hardest not to compare this to the other legacy games, risk legacy and pandemic legacy were etablished games that people already loved with a legacy twist to it, seafall here is different. this is truky the firsy legacy game. it was built from the ground up with legacy mechanics at the core of the thought. the base game may be boring to play because there basically is no base game. legecy from what i can tell by interviews is the sole drive of this and that is what will make or break the game, it doesnt have a solid theme or a solid game or past experiences to draw from it is entirely legacy driven. as far as time commitment goes i like that its much longer mainly because replayability is shot, so many people complained about the price point of pandemic legacy and lack of play time, with these long playthroughs ot seems your looking at getting 30-36 hours of play where in pandemic legacy you got 12-16 hours that more than doubles the amount of time youll get out of the game and as long as its enjoyed i believe that will make up for those old complaints on the last legacy game to be kind of moot considering all the time you get with this game.
I have finished Pandemic Legacy. It was fun. And it was a great Legacy component introduced to a great base game Pandemic. Looks like this is a mediocre base game. I wonder is this Seafall base game better than Risk base game. How do they rate Risk game? More than 5-6.5?
As I understand Dice Tower isn't recording Seafall plays? I enjoyed those with Pandemic Legacy.
Yeah, the medium weight euro-ness of this game combined with the Legacy mechanism seemed iffy to me from the beginning. That's just my opinion however.
What? No "let's see how the game plays"? I was really hoping for that. Oh well.
Tom and Z lighten up.......it looks great and as Sam said you're learning a new game. Tom very disappointed at the way you looked at the game, this video should have been done after you played all the way through the game. This video is like playing monopoly and only going around the board one time and judging the game on that limited play.
I don't think that's entirely fair. They've made it clear throughout that this is their initial impressions. I'd also make the point (that Tom has made often) that there are literally hundreds of great games out there, so for a game to warrant replaying it had better have some sort of hook from the start. It could be argued that this is getting undue leniency purely because of the Legacy title.
I'd also point out that once around the board in Monopoly gives a pretty good indication of how dreadful it is ;)
Remember they struggled through Pandemic Legacy and gave it much more benefit of the doubt when reviewing it. Check how many times it was played before the first review (6)and also think about Pandemic being Tom's number 1. I think I was fair to Tom, while the board is bland as are most it is a naval type games, it is serviceable. Z is not fan of Europe type games, were as there are fans of that type. I agree with Tom's patience is needed, as was needed in this review. Let us see what they think 4-5 more plays into the game.
Yikes... this is sounding touchy. Like you said, it's feeling like "This movie is awesome... but you've got to get through the slow first 30 minutes."
Also known as Interstellar :)
Not for us that movie is outstanding.
Also known as Mars Attacks. :)
Titanic lol
that is why I would never preorder games, especially ones getting hyped way too much :) look at no mans sky for example if you are into pc games ;)
No Man's Sky is exactly what I expected it to be and I've been following it for about 7 months. To be clear, I think it's pretty great on PC. But I do agree with your point. People don't think for themselves and let hype sweep them away rather than looking at something critically.
I completely agree. No Man's Sky is EXACTLY what I thought it would be and it's exactly what everything showed it would be. People still wanted it to be something else which it wasn't and are disappointed. I'm not disappointed one bit because I didn't buy into the extra hype.
so you both did everything right :) For me No Man's Sky too is what I expected and that's why I don't like it at all ;)
That's totally acceptable. I told someone the day before release that it was unlikely that I'd like it because it was clear it would be fairly shallow. Fortunately for me, I'm enjoying it more than I expected.
yeah that's what I hoped for too :)
Very underwhelming...and for me it's gotta be a pass. I was already concerned with the dull table presence and trying to get the same 3-5 people together for another lengthy legacy campaign...especially if it isn't REALLY enticing! (I'm having a hard enough time getting my group together for Time Stories and Pandemic: Legacy) and I feel like those ARE really Great!
I think this video is too long. You're one game in (plus the tutorial) and you have not much to say yet you manage to make a 20+ minute video about that. I think you could have wrapped up those first impressions in 5 minutes.
Normally, I love the Miami Dice videos, but this one felt boring and uninspired.
Yep. This is basically a wasted video. I would have expected a first impressions for a legacy game to have 2-3 plays of the actual game and that's not including the tutorial. This is like getting a review of a D&D adventure after the heroes walked through the castle door.
2-3 plays isn't a "first impressions" anymore
It is if you are doing a campaign.
Wow, pretty disappointing, I don't know if I can get a group to sit through "the first 4 boring hours"
Imo, i think they shouldn't have done a "first impressions" "review of sorts"... it's not very fair to the game. hoards of people are all "ok GREAT I DON'T HAVE TO DROP MONEY ON THIS" i feel it's somewhat unfair to the designer :/
by all means, make a review at the end with a good overview and stating clearly that the front was Lukewarm but yeah... this is killing the game (quite a bit) i think...
but this is all in my opinion...
The game, visuals-wise, looked bland since the previews. This why I had no hype for it.
From what you guys discuss, well, a book has to have a gripping first chapter to hook the reader, doesn't it? If the intro could have been better, that's a valid critique, irrelevant of what is to come.
You can get points for destroying indigenous communities? Yikes. Christopher Columbus would be proud.
Some games are intended to be didactic, others a simulation.
Are we supposed to pretend that isn't part of our history?
Wow...underwhelming.