I haven't read the books so I didn't know her children are actually supposed to be Harwin Strong's, I thought her first-born Jaecerys is actually Criston Cole's son, given that they didn't actually showed Rhaenyra drinking the "tea" in that previous episode. Imagine if they actually ignore the books and do that, Jaecerys being Criston Cole's son and the rest of the children being Harwin's, now THAT would be a twist.
it would make of interesting plot twist, but it would deviate too much from fire and blood. there is zero indication in the book that jace could potentially be criston's kid, even if you accept that rumor that criston was a former lover of rhaenyra (the other rumor is that criston rejected her advances). this deviation can change criston's allegiance back to rhaenyra's side, and that just can't happen if the show remains true to the book. spoiler: criston cole will become a "kingmaker". if jace is his kid, this major targaryen historical event is not going to happen.
@@lukefury8162 that would make no sense if criston doesn't switch sides if they change the story and make jace his kid. this is a recipe for bad writing. i trust that the show writers aren't retarded like that. also, they already made it clear in episode 6 that jace knows that harwin is his real father and rhaenyra's not even denying it to him. they already spelled out that 2+2=4.
To be honest if that is the case it might be heavily hinted at later or Cole finds out right before dying (maybe after playing a part in Jace's death???) They won't have Cole change sides
There's a fanfiction of that very idea. But he's consumed with shame and guilt. So he sets up Harwin Strong to acknowledge all 3. And he finds ways to get rid of him.
How dramatic would it be if Cole actually is Jace's birth father. All the hatred directed at his own child and Harwin picking up the mantle of father and being the better man for it. With Cole and his thoughts on duty and honor it would be interesting to see how he would take this news. Cole might even play a role in his old child's death. Would fit in with TBE world of games of thrones (yes I read the book. Yes I know people are going to say Jace is Harwin I'm just saying it's a great plot that could play out. And it doesn't make less of Harwin, it makes him a better man if anything because he treated that child like his own ). it would be drama is all I'm saying
The book may have made it juicy gossip but I think the show made it definitive. Making the Velaryon family brown skinned with white hair was genius for the live action story. They had to have known what they were doing. At least one of the older children would have had one or more of their traits but they don't. The kids are the Strong Boys.
I love the choice of dark skin for the Velaryons too, so beautiful! Also debunks the lie that people are against Black skinned individuals in Fantasy settings. Rings of Power gets bad ratings due to racism? Nope, just bad writing and worse acting
I like this video and, if the characters were portrayed as they were described in the books, I would still be thinking "are they or aren't they". However, we have plenty real world examples of mixed families. At least one of those kids would have come out looking somewhat like Laenor, a light brown skin tone. Then we have Daemon's two children with Laena. We see what a Targaryen × Valaryon kids tend to look like in the show at least. If George RR Martin had a hand in or gave consent to the casting choices then, in my mind, there's little doubt that these are Harwin Strong's kids....soft confirmation, if you will.
The HBO Max series explains any questioms pretty thoroughly, I believe it's fairly obvious that Sir Harwin was the father, like that was literally one of the main plots that episode
In her mind Cersei's house is royalty, just a side note, they were Kings before Aegon's conquest. In the books the reason why Cersei did this to Robert cause he cheat on her too many, many times. If Cersei was born to throne I would says she did nothing wrong, but she marry into the throne.
Quit trying to distance Cersei and Rhaenyra lol. They are essentially carbon copies and everyone knows it. Both had royal pretending bastards like an idiot and paid the price
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy How can her bastards be pretenders who won she was crowned princess ? Her blood is the royal blood not her husband unlike Cersei I would say that scenario is the only thing that’s loosely a copy of each other’s but the details are different and that is the important part the details by your logic Cersei children & rhaenyra children are all and the same situation is Jon Snow since they’re all bastards in some one eyes and none of them have Royal Blood since they are carbon copy
The "Jace is Cristin's son" theory is plausible, given that we don't know if Rhaenyra drank the tea. One would think the showrunners would add that interesting twist. Cole bullying his own son in the training yard, and perhaps even killing him later in the show. Cole might turn out to be a great villain. Strong of body, weak of character. *Haven't read the "dragon" book series, so could be way off base. If anyone wants to relate what happens in the books, no prob with spoilers.
The book Fire and Blood is not a novel, but more of the accounts of Archmaester Gyldayn of the Targaryen history from Aegon's conquest to Aegon III. The books are written from the perspective of different maesters and is more like a history book, hence you can conclude that the narrator is unreliable. So the showrunners with the help of George can take a few liberties. The show is supposed to show what actually happened. The book readers only know the major plot points. It's not like we have context outside of what the Maesters think. In the book, it is only rumoured that Harwin is the father. But, i wouldn't be surprised if the eldest Jacaerys turns out to be Ser Criston's son. Would make an interesting twist and quite plausible. Though we need to know how much time passed since Ser Criston got it on with Rhaenyra and when Rhaenyra and Laenor got married.
And of course the show would go with the plot that Cole either never finds out or finds out after the death of Jace, maybe even before his own death. It’s not a bad plot
Cole never came off to me as a huge villain in the books, and honestly Rhaenyra was a Grade A beyotch in the book. In my opinion they've tried to make her significantly more likeable, yes I know the book author is unreliable, but I don't like how black and white the show is
IMO Cersei on the show did not “learn the hard way.” Giving D&D too much credit. In fact, Cersei’s children being bastards was of little consequence to herself or family. Just Ned and others. Nobody even cared or at least that’s what I am left to assume since they never got even semi-deep into how the civilians of Kings Landing feel about that. Little disturbances if any aside from someone throwing mud at Joffrey and calling him a bastard. Cersei was killed because she didn’t step a few feet to the right and because Dany attacked Kings Landing because she believed she was the true heir to the throne. Joffrey died because he was a giant prick and Olena didn’t want him married to Marjorie. Tommen committed suicide because Cersei bombed the sept and killed his wife. And Marsala as payback by the sand snakes. I mean of course you can argue that that’s what sparked the war…. But Ned was willing to go to the wall and who knows how calm that would’ve made the waters had he actually been given the chance. But Joffrey chopped his head off which sparked more anger and caused the north to unite. I would argue that Rob would’ve still gathered his armies even if they weren’t bastards. Like if Joffrey unjustly killed Ned, an honorable man, due to Lannister lies, it likely still would’ve sparked a war. D&D got super lazy and dropped the ball. By the end of the show, being a bastard didnt really matter. See: Jon Snow, Gendry, Joffrey, Tommen, Marsala, Ramsey, etc. Only mattered in seasons 1 and 2. Kinda like how kingslaying was no longer a big deal. You can just kill a king or lord, say “I’m your new King now” and everyone claps for you and makes you the new ruler. 😂 Easy as pie. Anyway, great video either way.
I think that Laenor was a fool, couldn't he ask for "external help" to get him started (just like in GoT, when Margaery Tyrell suggested that to Renly), if he could not tolerate to even be near Rhaenyra in that intimate way, he could have drank some potion to knock him out, so Rhaenyra could become impregnated, the point is that if Laenor was serious about performing his duty, he would have tried harder to have legitimate heirs, then live happily with the man that he truly loved, but no. 🙄 They were both stupid and selfish, they only cared about what they wanted, and thought that just because they were nobility then they could get away with that. What Rhaenyra and Laenor did was very risky and short-sighted, it obviously had the potential for conflict (war).
In Ep7, Rhaenyra mentioned to Daemon that she and Laenor did have sex a few times but none resulted in her pregnancy. There were also rumours in the book that Sir Qarl helped Laenor "get started". There are theories that since there is no joy in sex between Rhaenyra and Laenor, they couldn't bring a child to the world -- which is odd since Alicent had 3 children despite just laying down and letting Viserys do the work.
@@kagenohikari8 Ahh yes, my bad, actually now I saw that near the ending of Ep7 Rhaenyra is speaking with Laenor and she mentions that they laid together a few times, but she didn't get pregnant. Interesting those rumours in the books, I think they should have shown at least a glimpse of it in the show 😆 , and yes, it's odd, because enjoyment is not necessary for procreation, it would be double bad luck for House Velaryon if Laenor were actually infertile.
@@ArcaneTuber There are also rumors that laenor could be sterile or have a problem, since although he and Rhaenyra had sex she did not get pregnant, but she had no difficulties with Daemon for example
Makes sense and a definitive answer the TV series made. Since the book was written and seen from a 3rd persons perspective and bound to be altered truths. The 3 child doesn't look mixed too, and the subtle mention of the nose by viserys kinda hinted it
But they would be quadroons if they were leanors. He's biracial and rhayneara is white, so they would be mostly white anyway. In the books it says that rhanis the queen that never was has dark har with silver streaks because her mother was a baratheon. If they would have shown that, leanor and rhaynera could have played off that thekids are legitimate.
@@letitiahumphrey1906 I was saying the same the other day that Laenor's children would be whiter than him because of Rhaenyra. Doesn't make sense for Daemon's daughters to look the way they do since they have a white daddy lol but eh, whatever right?
@@letitiahumphrey1906 Yup! I think there's abit of a conflict between the TV series and the books, would say the main issue that created this confusion and theory crafting would be the fact that the producers and writers decided to make the Velaryons of colored race. 1) IF they followed the book 1-1, the children could (possibly) be Laenor's since Rhaenys has black hair(which should very well be a 50-50 recessive gene against the Targaryen white) handed down her gene to Laenor 2) IF the Velaryons are not colored race, the chances of the children to be his is also a possibility since the gene of the Baratheon from Rhaenys could possibly pass down to him
How do you make these video/clips. Is there a website or something. Do you download the episode then cut out the clips you want to post? I want to do the same for this show and many other but dont know how.💚
Criston Cole is acting salty as hell! They wrote him kind of whiny in the show. Seeing it in live action makes me think Alicent is starting a whole war over who Rhaenyra is sleeping with lol
I hope the show does go that route. I would love to see his face when he realizes that Laenor and Harwin had more love and honor in their pinky finger than he did in his whole entire body.
the problem with that is that you would have to rely on terrible writing. there is no reason why rhaenyra would keep it a secret from criston. if anything, she would have compelled him to be her lover again. it's just pure stupidity to re-write rhaenyra keeping this a secret with absolutely ZERO sense. this is d&d level of terrible writing.
@@maggyfrog From a mothers perspective though, why would she want to tell the man who beat her husbands lover to death that she was pregnant with his child.
But the Lannister’s kids were not heirs once they were recognized as bastards, because the King was Robert. With Rhaenyra’s kids it’s different, because bastards or not, they are the kids of the Queen. So to me it doesn’t matter if the kids are one of each.
Don't you feel a bit like you're playing favorites? It's wild to me that Cersei and Rhaenyra are basically the same character yet almost everyone unanimously supports Rhae while hating Cersei
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy how is Rhae like Cersie? Because that is absurd. Cersie is cheating on her husband behind his back. She made Robert think the kids were his. Rhae was open and honest with Leanor, and offer him an agreement. There is no deceiving amongst themselves. Cersie asks Jaime to throw Bran off the window, in episode 1. When exactly has Rhaenyra shown that she is itching to kill her half siblings? Cersie wasn’t selected heir. Rhaenyra is the King’s first born, the heir. Honestly I don’t see any resemblance with the exception that they have kids not from their actual husbands. That is not a character trait. That is a circumstance.
@@aileenpi73 I agree with everything you says but the one item with Cersi told Jamie to throw Bran out the window. In books Cersi told him, he talk to kid that he saw nothing.
It mattered to the realm thus the Civil war. They already questioned Rhaenyra as the heir because she was a woman. She literally painted a target on her back by having bastards. It's one thing for a nameless woman to have the king's bastards and an entirely different thing to have the monarch give birth to one.
@@aileenpi73 first of all I'm going off the book She wants Aemond, who is 10, tortured until he reveals where he heard the rumor that her kids are bastards She has Vaemond Velaryon executed and fed to her dragon for calling her kids bastards Numerous Velaryon cousins get their tongues ripped out for accusing her kids of being bastards Which they all literally are. So letting people get tortured and killed for speaking the truth seems...kinda fucked up wouldn't you agree? Cersei also does this, killing those who speak the truth of her crime They also both harbor a disdain for the small folk and think them unimportant, which I won't spoil this plot point, but they both regret that
It's definitely a stretch in the show and nearly impossible in the book but I really like the idea. It makes the entire thing kind of redundant in a poetic way if Alicent was truly fighting (at least that aspect of her stupid fight) for nothing. That being said, making the Valeryons black in the show is all but an indication that they wanted to show clearly that the boys are Strong bastards. They definitely would have cast mixed-race or at least passing actors for the boy had they wanted to leave some ambiguity (like they did when casting Baela and Rhaena) but they specifically chose strictly white passing boys to play her kids. It was a strategic choice that leaves little to interpretation in the show and the book already left us with even less. In the books, Laenor is almost never in the Capital and, thus, is rarely there would he he could have hypothetically sired his sons. An interesting theory and thank you for considering real genetics as so few do when looking at fantasy.
It looks like you haven't seen many bi racial children. As each generation are born the melanin of the skin be come less, this is cause by who you have children with. For example Halle Berry, she is biracial woman, but she had a child from a white man that child look more white cause of her dad. If she had a baby from a Black man well I think you get the picture.
@@sanitizerwilson1599 I understand how that works but in the context of the show and with how well they cast everyone out, the showrunners would have definitely cast some mixed-race-passing kids if they wanted that amniguity. As it stands, Rhaenyra's boys were perfectly cast to look like Strong boys, especially considering the Valyrian traits are supposed to be pretty dominant (that's being said without the knowledge of actual genetics but you get the picture). By your own admission, they should have noticeable melanin if they were actually Laenor's but they look exactly like what I imagine people who claim they aren't white because they're 'ItALiAn' look like. IMO
All these genetics are a mystery all by themself. In my family everybody has blue or brown eyes. I am the only one since 3 generations with green-greyisch eyes. My mother and father have blue eyes. Even my sisters and grandparents had blue eyes. The only one that had brown eyes was my grandpa fatherlysided. It's said my great grandfather had green eyes and I inherited those but on all other corners I am the spitting image of my father and my mother.
Considering Laenor has strong Velaryon features which in the show all Targs/Velaryons have and those kids have zero not to mention he’s gay there’s absolutely no way there could be a question that those kids are his lol.
@@amosand7476 lol yes exactly, like those kids are unquestionably white with no Afro features. The show never painted it to where it was supposed to be questionable who the father was so I’m not sure what was the point of the video.
@@epcarter6 I think it’s great a show wants to be inclusive and show someone as a black character who is in a main role but to have the valaryons as black or mixed it makes the whole parentage question very obvious I don’t know how no one would know they are not his if he was white maybe people could kind of get on board with the whole thing and the story would of been abit better but it’s too obvious why would they not gossip about the princess the kids are literally not the “right” colour it makes the green claim in the show far obviously the most righteous way to go why would the realm pick bastards I think it’s sad people can’t really discuss this either because when the casting choices came out some book fans didn’t like that Steve was cast but it’s not because he’s black it’s because of the parentage questions that it raises when it the whole point of the story is based upon the claim to the throne that the point I think a lot of people have made out that if u discuss the fact that they are black you are somehow deemed racist..... that’s my rant over
@@amosand7476 lol no it’s fine and this is coming from a black guy. I thought it was funny because everyone was focused on the hair and how the kids all have brown hair. Even in the video and I’m like guys forget the hair the supposed father is black and those kids have no black features lol. I’ve also read the book and was curious how they’d do this part, but the way I look at it is Rhaenyra just doesn’t care and is reckless even Viserys is in denial and knows the truth.
Pretty sure it's a definitive. Doubt Laenor has ever slept with Rhaenyra. MAYBE to consumate the marriage but that's the only time they likely ever have. Alicent knows it, the Court knows it, anyone who's seen the kids knows it. Viserys... he just doesn't care it seems, he can't be that oblivious, he just doesn't want to deal with the ramifications. For someone who truly wants to rule one day, Rhaenyra so far hasn't made a good case for herself, considering her current batch of bastards she wants to place as her heirs to the Throne.
Viserys clearly is a very weak king. But I honestly don’t think he really cares whether or not his grandchildren are bastards. I think the only thing that matters to him is they are his daughters children and her husband claims them. Therefore, he is fine if with them inheriting the iron throne.
Since Rhaenyra's children are in line to the Throne due to their mother's blood and not through the father as it traditionally is. Whether or not they are Laenor's actual children does not matter, it would matter to Corlys but as far as the Realm should be concerned nope. Politically it matters because of the alliances that are brought due to the marriages and sworn allies.
Doesn't any one remember the Rhaenys, Leanors MOTHER, had dark hair in the book! So its genetically possible for her grandchildren to be dark haired. I know about Leanors preferences and stepping way out on a limb (but its HotD so..) Ser Harwin could have joined in a menage a trois with them so that even none of them actually knows who the father is. Leanor did say that he did try the Roast Duck. 😅 And the Targereyns weren't against mixed blood, ie Dragonseeds. As a ruling family that practiced in breeding they new that a periodic infusion of new blood made them stronger and created many more possible Dragon Riders to fill out a fighting force if needed. Alicent is a Westerosi Karen
In the books, it really is up in the air. F&B never reveals what Aemma looks like, so, though the show gave her the Targaryen silver hair, she could absolutely have had dark hair and wouldn't know. In fact, it is interesting that the story omits Aemma's features, and that makes me think she did have dark hair. Gyldayn, who was the in-universe writer, supports the greens, so he would have had a vested interest in trying to make Rhaenyra look bad (which would be helped by obscuring evidence that might contradict the claims of bastardy). Second, funnily enough, we never get a description of what Harwin Strong looks like. It is fair to say that he probably does have dark hair, since it's used to spread rumors...but so does most of the world. The vagueness of his description could very easily be because there was a passing resemblance to the boys, so the greens (and Gyldayn) wanted to hype up the possibility of illegitimacy. Third, frankly, is that their bastardy was completely irrelevant. They could have come out looking like Targaryens, and the greens would likely have still spread rumors about them being bastards. The greens were concerned with taking shots at Rhaenyra, and her sons' hair colors were good things to target. But, given that this is a sexist society, and it is easy to call a woman a slut, they probably would have taken the easy shots at her anyway, even if it was likely not true. Overall, there really is no way to tell, but in the end, it was irrelevant. The greens didn't care about their legitimacy; they wanted the throne and the supposed bastardy was just a nice excuse to start a war.
Am I the only one that is noticing how obvious it is that the oldest is Sir Cristian son??? Have we not forgotten he was her first? That whole tea ending is clearly left there to make us wonder about the first kid. He has straight hair like Sir Cristan. Theres so much hinting at this.....how is no one talking about this. lol
I was a little annoyed with this honestly. Why would they not try to have at least one legitimate child? It seems reckless to do what she did since there is no way to pass them off as Laenors kids.
Okay, so maybe someone can legitimately answer this for me. Everything I'm about to say pertains to the show and not the books (because I haven't read them). I'm trying to understand the genetics of the children. In GoT, Jon Snow had dark hair because Lyanna was a brunette and Rhaegar had the Targaryen blonde hair. Rhaenyra's children (prior to Daemon) all have dark hair because their father(s) had dark hair. So how do all of Alicent's children with Viserys have the signature blonde hair when she also has dark hair (though it is kind of a red-ish brown color)?
There no answer for that in the books, but in genetics, i have no major in anything, but the valyrian traits seem to be a A recessive gene, which means that it has a lower chance of being chosen during the formation of the fetus, in Alicent's case I think she was just lucky and the children were drawn to Viserys and in the case From Rhaenyra, the strongest genes were the most evident
Nah! doenst go with reality! i am full african, my husband swedish with blue eys, blond hair... we got 6 kids together... my 4th. a daughter has my deep dark brown skin, shade naomi cambelle brown, blond hair, blue eyes! But when you go look at my tribe, albino''s are normal only my girl got lucky she has the very light version of it!!! her eyes and hair!!! Skin tone is even darker than the other kids... But my 5 other kids? They are a perfect blend between me and my husband... It is just strange it happend to Rhea''s kids 3 times in a row...
That’s the point that they don’t need to be, because they bear the last name Velaryon and the father doesn’t repudiate them. The burden of proof falls on the Karens.
Here is a big big clue as to who is not the father the kids are not black not in the slightest but yet the cousins born to daemon are they are darker than what their mother looked like at that age suggesting that their mother slept around with someone who is mixed or black so yeah casting is a total mess up they could of picked any other characters to be black but the ones we need to cast shadow over has made it difficult with more questions they needed to be consistent with casting the younger version black actors look nothing like the older versions it just shows they just wanted someone black not bothering about the story stupid
Primogeniture was the main reason women's sexuality was so tightly controlled. Since women actually give birth, you always know who the mother is but the father's identity (before blood typing & genetic tests) could be open to conjecture. In the case of Rhaenyra, it shouldn't matter since she is the heir & future Queen, so the Targaryan line is passed down thru her anyway. As long as the children are claimed/acknowledged on the Valaryon side(her husband's family) it really shouldn't matter since the line of succession is not broken.
It is broken because her kids are not from the union of her and her husband. That’s literally the definition of “broken succession” they’re bastards who don’t have any claim to anything , although it’s not widely known yet
And it matters completely to other legitimate Valryon and Targaryen family members because their titles/lands will be inherited by bastards and not them, it doesn’t matter if the issue does not matter to you personally.
And you’re wrong about the line passing through Rhae, which it wouldn’t traditionally as she is a women and even if she is the heir, it wouldn’t pass through her because once again. Her kids are not legitimate.
Looking at the show after this episode it hilights why making the Velaryons "black" was a brilliant creative choice. When switiching to a visual media they sometimes juxtapose features to make certain characters stand out. As it stands right now when u see a white character with the platinum blond hair on screen you automatically think "Targaryen" and a black person with the same hair colour "Velaryon". The princesses kids are neither.
No its not really a brilliant move. It makes things much more complex if you cannot be sure who is the correct parents. Making them black just means the story has a huge plot hole as EVERYONE knows the kids arent from wedlock. No more questions, not what ifs... they simply arent leanor's definitively.
@@TierDvik you're missing the point. the show made it obvious that those kids can not be laenor's. they are brown-haired and white like harwin. they are even making this more obvious when you see the strong boys side by side with daemon's and laena's kids who have dark skin and curly white hair.
@@maggyfrog not missing anything. Yes it's obviously strongs kids and this they would never be in line to the throne. Rhea would never be accepted because she broke her vows. I understand that is the point they are making but doing I this way makes it so even if everyone accepted and wanted Rhea to be queen... It means the Targaryen rule is over with her passing. Noone who supports the Targaryen family line will accept it and it means she is at fault for all the conflicts coming up. Alicent is the good guy... Rhea is the bad. By changing the races and hair color of color of the grandmother they painted themselves into a corner. Where not doing those changes allows for intrigue and different opinions in who sides with who
@@TierDvik if you remember, viserys made it clear to corlys that rhaenyra's heir will inherit the name targaryen regardless of gender. the rest of their kids will take the name velaryon. so, no, this would have kept the targaryen dynasty alive. also, bastards do have a claim to inheritance. this is pretty clear in the books. let's say there was never any beef between alicent and rhaenyra and nobody ever challenges her claim, and let's say that it becomes public knowledge that the boys are harwin's kids, them being true dragonseeds still give them legitimate claim. jace would have been legitimized as a targaryen after rhaenyra. cersei had robert's bastards killed (except gendry who escaped) so that nobody can claim the throne against joffrey. there is an entire "blackfyre" rebellion in targaryen history regarding a bastard vs a trueborn. so, all in all, the strong boys always had a legitimate claim to the throne because they are dragonseeds.
@@maggyfrog Bastards have a WEAK line of inheritance you know that right? Only if there are no legitimate heirs of the blood line. Also they are NOT Valerian and can be disowned AS bastards much easier then claiming a bastard. The only reason they were given the "they will take Targaryian name when they age" was because they would be a union of the two houses. That is not what happened so the kings decree is null and void UNLESS he decides to honor it. Again... In this change... RHEA is the one at fault for the coming conflict 100% Where if they didnt make it... it runs a similar path to the Lancisters where there is doubt and doesnt cause a civil war.
Their parentage doesn't even matter in the overall plot. Don't look so much into it lol The ones that truly matter in the scheme of things are the other children Rhaenyra has later
Went to spouses who heavily have strong genes with silver hair and your child comes out brown hair and is well known that the male spouse is homosexual it’s not much to guess on clearly the male Refuse perform his duties to his house if I have any children and she was foolish enough to marry a man who did not match her lovers gens
There's a fanfiction with that idea. It's interesting because CC in the story he hates the child because it represents his broken oath and he conspires to set up harwin to acknowledge all 3 kids. I think makes sense to me.
Genetics are funny. I’m really fair skinned and my husband is the opposite (dark skinned Hispanic). Only one of our sons looks like him. The other is light like me and only has his dads eyes and nose.
It’s interesting that so many of the non book readers are spinning a narrative that does not happen in the book. No, Ser Cole is not the father of any of Rhaneria’s children. The Morning After Tea that was served to Rhaneria by the Maesster has been totally omitted from these wishful fantasies. Read the book.
The book that is well known to be written as a history text that is not accurate of the actual events and written by people with no first hand knowledge ??? 🤣 That one?
@@animeisthewayhaha Yes, the one written by George RR Martin, that never even alludes to by either Maester, or Mushroom, or septa and septon that Ser Cole might be the father of any of her children. If it was mentioned, please direct to the chapter. So much history is given in this book it is indeed possible it I might have missed it. However, until I see scripture & verse that this happened with one of her children, I stand by what I previously said.
@@animeisthewayhaha Oh by the way on page 368 of the hard cover book, “FIRE & BLOOD”, the fourth paragraph, the Princess is spurned by Ser Cole, and he is horrified by sexual advances. It also says that “Ser Criston was a true knight, noble and chaste and mindful of his vows…” So once again, No, Ser Cole is NOT the father of ANY of her children. However, if the the the show runners deviate from the source material, which they have been known to do, to create that scenario, then that is is a different situation. Reading is indeed fundamental. . .
Eve best legit has black hair Michelle fsurely had reddish long hair they had her grow it out up extensions in it and catelyn looked way better they legit could have just done the same thing with eve. They should have asked her to grow it out added extensions and bam you have her natural hair . They did the same thing with the actress who plays lysa they added extensions
two "dark" parents can make a blonde baby, but two blondes cannot make a dark haired baby, of white skin...much less one parent being dark skinned. Those kids aren't Laenor's.
Dont hate on the actors but Velaryons should be "latinos" spanish because white and american mixed and africans should be all the other nations outside westeros like Essos or even Dorne Also because the brown hair could be from her grandparents i think
The Valeryian/Targaryen parents have silver hair, which is of course a dominant trait. Both kids have brown hair and all of the sets of grandparents have. silver hair.
Laenor’s Mom is half Baratheon. In the books I believe she had dark hair, now they’ve clearly deviated from the books settle for my genetics standpoint it is possible that they could to get dark hair.
@@dianasmith8248 yes but it's not a Dominant trait , it's extremely rare for someone of Valerian blood to be born without it. In all of GoT, F&B & HotD there's only 1 character born without that dominate trait Jon Snow. I mean We're completely ignoring the skin color which also seems to be a dominate trait. In the tv show we even see a two generations of mixed parents and the kids are predominantly Dark skin with silver hair. But Jace & Luke are light skinned and dark haired.
Stick to videos bro. The genetics make it possible for those to be Laenor's kids based on recessive traits. You declaring it "null and void" because of the genetics of the parents is a fundamental misunderstanding of how genes manifest.
spoiler: it's not possible for criston to be jace's father. he's going to become "kingmaker". it makes no sense for him to crown a "green" if his own kid is a "black". criston fathering jace is a tinfoil theory.
This makes the leap that Cole knows. How would be know if he was never told??? Would explain how he came to hate the princess as much as he does. Thinking she replaced him so easily. But yes in the book it wouldn't be possible because the falling out happened a few years before Jace's birth but the show said it's been 10 years and Jace looks pretty damn close to 10 They have already played with the timeline a bit Its not a bad change from the book imo
@@animeisthewayhaha just because they streamlined the events in the show doesn't mean that they are going to change the narrative of the book. the narrative is that those boys are harwin's kids. george could have easily written otherwise but that simply isn't the case. there is no reason why the show would deviate from the book just to appear dumb in the show. there is zero logic as to why rhaenyra would keep it a secret from criston if jace is his kid. literally, she would instead use that information to have him back in her arms.
Can anyone who read the book confirm if Ser Harwin and Rhaeryna had a romantically built up relationship or they had a chemistry or mention of details of it cause the time jump and the quick shift in relationship dynamic by the show runner feels forced thru my throat. I don’t feel anything about most of the characters!
Harwin is barely mentioned in the book at all. Just mostly in passing as a possibility of being the father of the rumored bastard children. Just picture the book as one majorly flawed historical text because the events of the dance was written many years after it
Yes they did. Harwin was her champion at her wedding tourney, in that same tourney, Joffrey had Laenor's favor while Criston wore Alicent's. It was during that tourney that Criston killed Joffrey. Then Harwin and Laenor were both in the room as she gave birth to her second son, Luke.
Technically laenor is half black and white. In fact his mother is half Baratheon, so while we know he isn’t the father, nobody else can say so for sure because it is possible that his kids could look like they do.
Jon snow doesn't have very Stark features, he looks more like Eddard Stark than Rob (who may have been Brandon Stark's son). Ashara Dayne threw herself from the tower, maybe the one who dishonoured her was Brandon Stark.
@@henriquecesardesouzasilva8766 that show's episode 3 of season 8 was the best example of the garbage writing that dragged the show through the mud. Stannis is the rightful heir to the iron throne and you kill him off screen like that? shame
@@ashesofhopesinabonfireofdr6341 True they changed alot of things on their own but i dont think they changed this their alot of clues for this and they cant change such an important thing plus i don't know if u know when those A-holes went to meet george to ask his permission to make TV adaptation of his books George told them I'll ask u one question if u answered that correctly u've my permission who is Jon's mother
I haven't read the books so I didn't know her children are actually supposed to be Harwin Strong's, I thought her first-born Jaecerys is actually Criston Cole's son, given that they didn't actually showed Rhaenyra drinking the "tea" in that previous episode.
Imagine if they actually ignore the books and do that, Jaecerys being Criston Cole's son and the rest of the children being Harwin's, now THAT would be a twist.
it would make of interesting plot twist, but it would deviate too much from fire and blood. there is zero indication in the book that jace could potentially be criston's kid, even if you accept that rumor that criston was a former lover of rhaenyra (the other rumor is that criston rejected her advances). this deviation can change criston's allegiance back to rhaenyra's side, and that just can't happen if the show remains true to the book.
spoiler:
criston cole will become a "kingmaker". if jace is his kid, this major targaryen historical event is not going to happen.
I think that would be a great twist i just hope if they go with idea they don't make ser criston switch sides
#TeamGreen
@@lukefury8162
that would make no sense if criston doesn't switch sides if they change the story and make jace his kid. this is a recipe for bad writing. i trust that the show writers aren't retarded like that.
also, they already made it clear in episode 6 that jace knows that harwin is his real father and rhaenyra's not even denying it to him. they already spelled out that 2+2=4.
To be honest if that is the case it might be heavily hinted at later or Cole finds out right before dying (maybe after playing a part in Jace's death???) They won't have Cole change sides
There's a fanfiction of that very idea. But he's consumed with shame and guilt. So he sets up Harwin Strong to acknowledge all 3. And he finds ways to get rid of him.
How dramatic would it be if Cole actually is Jace's birth father. All the hatred directed at his own child and Harwin picking up the mantle of father and being the better man for it. With Cole and his thoughts on duty and honor it would be interesting to see how he would take this news. Cole might even play a role in his old child's death. Would fit in with TBE world of games of thrones (yes I read the book. Yes I know people are going to say Jace is Harwin I'm just saying it's a great plot that could play out. And it doesn't make less of Harwin, it makes him a better man if anything because he treated that child like his own ). it would be drama is all I'm saying
Well why in the world would a kingsguard claim a child after Lucamore the Lusty?
The book may have made it juicy gossip but I think the show made it definitive. Making the Velaryon family brown skinned with white hair was genius for the live action story. They had to have known what they were doing. At least one of the older children would have had one or more of their traits but they don't. The kids are the Strong Boys.
They had brown hair in the books punnets squares don’t work in there favor
I love the choice of dark skin for the Velaryons too, so beautiful! Also debunks the lie that people are against Black skinned individuals in Fantasy settings. Rings of Power gets bad ratings due to racism? Nope, just bad writing and worse acting
I wish they would have kept Rhaenys with dark hair like in the books. To make you wonder even more lol
I like this video and, if the characters were portrayed as they were described in the books, I would still be thinking "are they or aren't they". However, we have plenty real world examples of mixed families. At least one of those kids would have come out looking somewhat like Laenor, a light brown skin tone. Then we have Daemon's two children with Laena. We see what a Targaryen × Valaryon kids tend to look like in the show at least. If George RR Martin had a hand in or gave consent to the casting choices then, in my mind, there's little doubt that these are Harwin Strong's kids....soft confirmation, if you will.
@@aaronredd2968 but punnet squares would indicate a possibility since Rhaenys is half Baratheon and Rhaenyra 1/4 Arryn.
The HBO Max series explains any questioms pretty thoroughly, I believe it's fairly obvious that Sir Harwin was the father, like that was literally one of the main plots that episode
The thing about cersei is her kids are not only bastards they’re not even a member of the royal house Targaryen or Baratheon
In her mind Cersei's house is royalty, just a side note, they were Kings before Aegon's conquest. In the books the reason why Cersei did this to Robert cause he cheat on her too many, many times. If Cersei was born to throne I would says she did nothing wrong, but she marry into the throne.
@@sanitizerwilson1599 Even if she was 2 the throne it would be wrong but The consequences would’ve been less severe and less risky
Quit trying to distance Cersei and Rhaenyra lol. They are essentially carbon copies and everyone knows it. Both had royal pretending bastards like an idiot and paid the price
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Loosely copies not exact copies
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy How can her bastards be pretenders who won she was crowned princess ? Her blood is the royal blood not her husband unlike Cersei I would say that scenario is the only thing that’s loosely a copy of each other’s but the details are different and that is the important part the details by your logic Cersei children & rhaenyra children are all and the same situation is Jon Snow since they’re all bastards in some one eyes and none of them have Royal Blood since they are carbon copy
The "Jace is Cristin's son" theory is plausible, given that we don't know if Rhaenyra drank the tea.
One would think the showrunners would add that interesting twist.
Cole bullying his own son in the training yard, and perhaps even killing him later in the show.
Cole might turn out to be a great villain. Strong of body, weak of character.
*Haven't read the "dragon" book series, so could be way off base. If anyone wants to relate what happens in the books, no prob with spoilers.
Yes Criston Cole will be the biggest green supporter and commander.. you guessed it absolutely right
The book Fire and Blood is not a novel, but more of the accounts of Archmaester Gyldayn of the Targaryen history from Aegon's conquest to Aegon III. The books are written from the perspective of different maesters and is more like a history book, hence you can conclude that the narrator is unreliable. So the showrunners with the help of George can take a few liberties. The show is supposed to show what actually happened. The book readers only know the major plot points. It's not like we have context outside of what the Maesters think.
In the book, it is only rumoured that Harwin is the father. But, i wouldn't be surprised if the eldest Jacaerys turns out to be Ser Criston's son. Would make an interesting twist and quite plausible. Though we need to know how much time passed since Ser Criston got it on with Rhaenyra and when Rhaenyra and Laenor got married.
And of course the show would go with the plot that Cole either never finds out or finds out after the death of Jace, maybe even before his own death. It’s not a bad plot
Well in the show, Jace has wavy haired (like Criston???) while Luke is curly haired like Harwin. Note , illustrations in the books show its reversed.
Cole never came off to me as a huge villain in the books, and honestly Rhaenyra was a Grade A beyotch in the book. In my opinion they've tried to make her significantly more likeable, yes I know the book author is unreliable, but I don't like how black and white the show is
IMO Cersei on the show did not “learn the hard way.” Giving D&D too much credit. In fact, Cersei’s children being bastards was of little consequence to herself or family. Just Ned and others. Nobody even cared or at least that’s what I am left to assume since they never got even semi-deep into how the civilians of Kings Landing feel about that. Little disturbances if any aside from someone throwing mud at Joffrey and calling him a bastard. Cersei was killed because she didn’t step a few feet to the right and because Dany attacked Kings Landing because she believed she was the true heir to the throne. Joffrey died because he was a giant prick and Olena didn’t want him married to Marjorie. Tommen committed suicide because Cersei bombed the sept and killed his wife. And Marsala as payback by the sand snakes. I mean of course you can argue that that’s what sparked the war…. But Ned was willing to go to the wall and who knows how calm that would’ve made the waters had he actually been given the chance. But Joffrey chopped his head off which sparked more anger and caused the north to unite. I would argue that Rob would’ve still gathered his armies even if they weren’t bastards. Like if Joffrey unjustly killed Ned, an honorable man, due to Lannister lies, it likely still would’ve sparked a war. D&D got super lazy and dropped the ball. By the end of the show, being a bastard didnt really matter. See: Jon Snow, Gendry, Joffrey, Tommen, Marsala, Ramsey, etc. Only mattered in seasons 1 and 2. Kinda like how kingslaying was no longer a big deal. You can just kill a king or lord, say “I’m your new King now” and everyone claps for you and makes you the new ruler. 😂 Easy as pie. Anyway, great video either way.
I think that Laenor was a fool, couldn't he ask for "external help" to get him started (just like in GoT, when Margaery Tyrell suggested that to Renly), if he could not tolerate to even be near Rhaenyra in that intimate way, he could have drank some potion to knock him out, so Rhaenyra could become impregnated, the point is that if Laenor was serious about performing his duty, he would have tried harder to have legitimate heirs, then live happily with the man that he truly loved, but no. 🙄 They were both stupid and selfish, they only cared about what they wanted, and thought that just because they were nobility then they could get away with that. What Rhaenyra and Laenor did was very risky and short-sighted, it obviously had the potential for conflict (war).
In Ep7, Rhaenyra mentioned to Daemon that she and Laenor did have sex a few times but none resulted in her pregnancy. There were also rumours in the book that Sir Qarl helped Laenor "get started".
There are theories that since there is no joy in sex between Rhaenyra and Laenor, they couldn't bring a child to the world -- which is odd since Alicent had 3 children despite just laying down and letting Viserys do the work.
@@kagenohikari8 Ahh yes, my bad, actually now I saw that near the ending of Ep7 Rhaenyra is speaking with Laenor and she mentions that they laid together a few times, but she didn't get pregnant. Interesting those rumours in the books, I think they should have shown at least a glimpse of it in the show 😆 , and yes, it's odd, because enjoyment is not necessary for procreation, it would be double bad luck for House Velaryon if Laenor were actually infertile.
@@ArcaneTuber There are also rumors that laenor could be sterile or have a problem, since although he and Rhaenyra had sex she did not get pregnant, but she had no difficulties with Daemon for example
Makes sense and a definitive answer the TV series made. Since the book was written and seen from a 3rd persons perspective and bound to be altered truths. The 3 child doesn't look mixed too, and the subtle mention of the nose by viserys kinda hinted it
Yeah his momma nose
True
But they would be quadroons if they were leanors. He's biracial and rhayneara is white, so they would be mostly white anyway. In the books it says that rhanis the queen that never was has dark har with silver streaks because her mother was a baratheon. If they would have shown that, leanor and rhaynera could have played off that thekids are legitimate.
@@letitiahumphrey1906 I was saying the same the other day that Laenor's children would be whiter than him because of Rhaenyra. Doesn't make sense for Daemon's daughters to look the way they do since they have a white daddy lol but eh, whatever right?
@@letitiahumphrey1906 Yup! I think there's abit of a conflict between the TV series and the books, would say the main issue that created this confusion and theory crafting would be the fact that the producers and writers decided to make the Velaryons of colored race.
1) IF they followed the book 1-1, the children could (possibly) be Laenor's since Rhaenys has black hair(which should very well be a 50-50 recessive gene against the Targaryen white) handed down her gene to Laenor
2) IF the Velaryons are not colored race, the chances of the children to be his is also a possibility since the gene of the Baratheon from Rhaenys could possibly pass down to him
How do you make these video/clips. Is there a website or something. Do you download the episode then cut out the clips you want to post? I want to do the same for this show and many other but dont know how.💚
Jacaerys is probably Coles son.
Oh the irony 🤣🤣🤣
I will pay a million bucks to see Coles face if that happens.
Criston Cole is acting salty as hell! They wrote him kind of whiny in the show. Seeing it in live action makes me think Alicent is starting a whole war over who Rhaenyra is sleeping with lol
I hope the show does go that route. I would love to see his face when he realizes that Laenor and Harwin had more love and honor in their pinky finger than he did in his whole entire body.
It would be great because Cole is all about duty and honor but when that truly mattered it was Harwin that had all of it and he had none.
the problem with that is that you would have to rely on terrible writing. there is no reason why rhaenyra would keep it a secret from criston. if anything, she would have compelled him to be her lover again. it's just pure stupidity to re-write rhaenyra keeping this a secret with absolutely ZERO sense. this is d&d level of terrible writing.
@@maggyfrog From a mothers perspective though, why would she want to tell the man who beat her husbands lover to death that she was pregnant with his child.
But the Lannister’s kids were not heirs once they were recognized as bastards, because the King was Robert. With Rhaenyra’s kids it’s different, because bastards or not, they are the kids of the Queen. So to me it doesn’t matter if the kids are one of each.
Don't you feel a bit like you're playing favorites? It's wild to me that Cersei and Rhaenyra are basically the same character yet almost everyone unanimously supports Rhae while hating Cersei
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy how is Rhae like Cersie? Because that is absurd.
Cersie is cheating on her husband behind his back. She made Robert think the kids were his. Rhae was open and honest with Leanor, and offer him an agreement. There is no deceiving amongst themselves. Cersie asks Jaime to throw Bran off the window, in episode 1. When exactly has Rhaenyra shown that she is itching to kill her half siblings?
Cersie wasn’t selected heir. Rhaenyra is the King’s first born, the heir. Honestly I don’t see any resemblance with the exception that they have kids not from their actual husbands. That is not a character trait. That is a circumstance.
@@aileenpi73 I agree with everything you says but the one item with Cersi told Jamie to throw Bran out the window. In books Cersi told him, he talk to kid that he saw nothing.
It mattered to the realm thus the Civil war. They already questioned Rhaenyra as the heir because she was a woman. She literally painted a target on her back by having bastards. It's one thing for a nameless woman to have the king's bastards and an entirely different thing to have the monarch give birth to one.
@@aileenpi73 first of all I'm going off the book
She wants Aemond, who is 10, tortured until he reveals where he heard the rumor that her kids are bastards
She has Vaemond Velaryon executed and fed to her dragon for calling her kids bastards
Numerous Velaryon cousins get their tongues ripped out for accusing her kids of being bastards
Which they all literally are. So letting people get tortured and killed for speaking the truth seems...kinda fucked up wouldn't you agree? Cersei also does this, killing those who speak the truth of her crime
They also both harbor a disdain for the small folk and think them unimportant, which I won't spoil this plot point, but they both regret that
It's definitely a stretch in the show and nearly impossible in the book but I really like the idea. It makes the entire thing kind of redundant in a poetic way if Alicent was truly fighting (at least that aspect of her stupid fight) for nothing.
That being said, making the Valeryons black in the show is all but an indication that they wanted to show clearly that the boys are Strong bastards. They definitely would have cast mixed-race or at least passing actors for the boy had they wanted to leave some ambiguity (like they did when casting Baela and Rhaena) but they specifically chose strictly white passing boys to play her kids. It was a strategic choice that leaves little to interpretation in the show and the book already left us with even less. In the books, Laenor is almost never in the Capital and, thus, is rarely there would he he could have hypothetically sired his sons. An interesting theory and thank you for considering real genetics as so few do when looking at fantasy.
It looks like you haven't seen many bi racial children. As each generation are born the melanin of the skin be come less, this is cause by who you have children with. For example Halle Berry, she is biracial woman, but she had a child from a white man that child look more white cause of her dad. If she had a baby from a Black man well I think you get the picture.
@@sanitizerwilson1599 I understand how that works but in the context of the show and with how well they cast everyone out, the showrunners would have definitely cast some mixed-race-passing kids if they wanted that amniguity. As it stands, Rhaenyra's boys were perfectly cast to look like Strong boys, especially considering the Valyrian traits are supposed to be pretty dominant (that's being said without the knowledge of actual genetics but you get the picture). By your own admission, they should have noticeable melanin if they were actually Laenor's but they look exactly like what I imagine people who claim they aren't white because they're 'ItALiAn' look like. IMO
My heart is broken 💔 please bring back again Harwin ❤️ He was a wonderful man 🥰✨ and good husband of Rhaenyra ❤️
If Rhaenarya choose Tyland Lannister as her lover the parentage of her children will not be questioned
I hope this is sarcasm
All these genetics are a mystery all by themself. In my family everybody has blue or brown eyes. I am the only one since 3 generations with green-greyisch eyes. My mother and father have blue eyes. Even my sisters and grandparents had blue eyes. The only one that had brown eyes was my grandpa fatherlysided. It's said my great grandfather had green eyes and I inherited those but on all other corners I am the spitting image of my father and my mother.
That's super neat :)
Some times genetics trait doesn't pop up in couple of generations.
Considering Laenor has strong Velaryon features which in the show all Targs/Velaryons have and those kids have zero not to mention he’s gay there’s absolutely no way there could be a question that those kids are his lol.
And he is mixed and they are not ,not even a slight Afro
@@amosand7476 lol yes exactly, like those kids are unquestionably white with no Afro features. The show never painted it to where it was supposed to be questionable who the father was so I’m not sure what was the point of the video.
@@epcarter6 I think it’s great a show wants to be inclusive and show someone as a black character who is in a main role but to have the valaryons as black or mixed it makes the whole parentage question very obvious I don’t know how no one would know they are not his if he was white maybe people could kind of get on board with the whole thing and the story would of been abit better but it’s too obvious why would they not gossip about the princess the kids are literally not the “right” colour it makes the green claim in the show far obviously the most righteous way to go why would the realm pick bastards I think it’s sad people can’t really discuss this either because when the casting choices came out some book fans didn’t like that Steve was cast but it’s not because he’s black it’s because of the parentage questions that it raises when it the whole point of the story is based upon the claim to the throne that the point I think a lot of people have made out that if u discuss the fact that they are black you are somehow deemed racist..... that’s my rant over
@@amosand7476 lol no it’s fine and this is coming from a black guy. I thought it was funny because everyone was focused on the hair and how the kids all have brown hair. Even in the video and I’m like guys forget the hair the supposed father is black and those kids have no black features lol. I’ve also read the book and was curious how they’d do this part, but the way I look at it is Rhaenyra just doesn’t care and is reckless even Viserys is in denial and knows the truth.
@@epcarter6 so true she don’t care I have no sympathy for her she just seems like a spoiled child
Pretty sure it's a definitive. Doubt Laenor has ever slept with Rhaenyra. MAYBE to consumate the marriage but that's the only time they likely ever have.
Alicent knows it, the Court knows it, anyone who's seen the kids knows it. Viserys... he just doesn't care it seems, he can't be that oblivious, he just doesn't want to deal with the ramifications.
For someone who truly wants to rule one day, Rhaenyra so far hasn't made a good case for herself, considering her current batch of bastards she wants to place as her heirs to the Throne.
Viserys clearly is a very weak king. But I honestly don’t think he really cares whether or not his grandchildren are bastards. I think the only thing that matters to him is they are his daughters children and her husband claims them.
Therefore, he is fine if with them inheriting the iron throne.
Since Rhaenyra's children are in line to the Throne due to their mother's blood and not through the father as it traditionally is. Whether or not they are Laenor's actual children does not matter, it would matter to Corlys but as far as the Realm should be concerned nope. Politically it matters because of the alliances that are brought due to the marriages and sworn allies.
@@comkver Exactly. But they could’ve even solved the corlys problem by having Luke marry one of Daemons daughters.
@@comkver that's entirely playing favorites, this chick is the OG Cersei Lannister yet she gets a pass because she's framed as the "good guy"
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy exactly, dumbass show only fans
Doesn't any one remember the Rhaenys, Leanors MOTHER, had dark hair in the book! So its genetically possible for her grandchildren to be dark haired. I know about Leanors preferences and stepping way out on a limb (but its HotD so..) Ser Harwin could have joined in a menage a trois with them so that even none of them actually knows who the father is. Leanor did say that he did try the Roast Duck. 😅
And the Targereyns weren't against mixed blood, ie Dragonseeds. As a ruling family that practiced in breeding they new that a periodic infusion of new blood made them stronger and created many more possible Dragon Riders to fill out a fighting force if needed. Alicent is a Westerosi Karen
the problem is that the boys looked like harwin. all three of them. why would rhaenys' grandchildren look like harwin if he weren't their dad?
Jon Snow is a Stark and Dayne and Rhaegar Targaryen is the son of Bonifer Hasty (a Knight) and his mother is the sister of the Aerys.
His children are really... strong.
Harwin beating up criston cole was satisfying
Harwin burning alive was satisfying also
Indeed
For those prostitutes sons
@@animeisthewayhaha rhanenyra is a prostitute and harwin is her costomer
In the books, it really is up in the air. F&B never reveals what Aemma looks like, so, though the show gave her the Targaryen silver hair, she could absolutely have had dark hair and wouldn't know. In fact, it is interesting that the story omits Aemma's features, and that makes me think she did have dark hair. Gyldayn, who was the in-universe writer, supports the greens, so he would have had a vested interest in trying to make Rhaenyra look bad (which would be helped by obscuring evidence that might contradict the claims of bastardy).
Second, funnily enough, we never get a description of what Harwin Strong looks like. It is fair to say that he probably does have dark hair, since it's used to spread rumors...but so does most of the world. The vagueness of his description could very easily be because there was a passing resemblance to the boys, so the greens (and Gyldayn) wanted to hype up the possibility of illegitimacy.
Third, frankly, is that their bastardy was completely irrelevant. They could have come out looking like Targaryens, and the greens would likely have still spread rumors about them being bastards. The greens were concerned with taking shots at Rhaenyra, and her sons' hair colors were good things to target. But, given that this is a sexist society, and it is easy to call a woman a slut, they probably would have taken the easy shots at her anyway, even if it was likely not true.
Overall, there really is no way to tell, but in the end, it was irrelevant. The greens didn't care about their legitimacy; they wanted the throne and the supposed bastardy was just a nice excuse to start a war.
My head is spinning
Am I the only one that is noticing how obvious it is that the oldest is Sir Cristian son??? Have we not forgotten he was her first? That whole tea ending is clearly left there to make us wonder about the first kid. He has straight hair like Sir Cristan. Theres so much hinting at this.....how is no one talking about this. lol
Aemon is older than Jac that is impossible
The masters gave her moon tea
I was a little annoyed with this honestly. Why would they not try to have at least one legitimate child? It seems reckless to do what she did since there is no way to pass them off as Laenors kids.
Same thing with Renly he just can’t do it
they did try, we get told this in the seventh episode.
If you go to the beach walk conversation they did in fact try to make babies but it barely worked and no child was conceived
@sounsure9108 they obviously didn't try very hard then lol.
Okay, so maybe someone can legitimately answer this for me. Everything I'm about to say pertains to the show and not the books (because I haven't read them). I'm trying to understand the genetics of the children. In GoT, Jon Snow had dark hair because Lyanna was a brunette and Rhaegar had the Targaryen blonde hair. Rhaenyra's children (prior to Daemon) all have dark hair because their father(s) had dark hair. So how do all of Alicent's children with Viserys have the signature blonde hair when she also has dark hair (though it is kind of a red-ish brown color)?
There no answer for that in the books, but in genetics, i have no major in anything, but the valyrian traits seem to be a A recessive gene, which means that it has a lower chance of being chosen during the formation of the fetus, in Alicent's case I think she was just lucky and the children were drawn to Viserys and in the case From Rhaenyra, the strongest genes were the most evident
Westeros doesn't know how DNA works so any and all deductions anyone makes about paternity based on physical traits could be wrong.
Nah! doenst go with reality! i am full african, my husband swedish with blue eys, blond hair... we got 6 kids together... my 4th. a daughter has my deep dark brown skin, shade naomi cambelle brown, blond hair, blue eyes! But when you go look at my tribe, albino''s are normal only my girl got lucky she has the very light version of it!!! her eyes and hair!!! Skin tone is even darker than the other kids... But my 5 other kids? They are a perfect blend between me and my husband... It is just strange it happend to Rhea''s kids 3 times in a row...
King Viserys could have legitimized all the Strong boys.
Thank you. Legitimize and be done with it.
To legitimize means he has to acknowledge them. That leads to serious political complications
True!!! but that admitting they weren't bastards in the first place.
That’s the point that they don’t need to be, because they bear the last name Velaryon and the father doesn’t repudiate them. The burden of proof falls on the Karens.
@@aileenpi73 the proof is obvious...seriously what a dumb take
what was the dragon in the crypt??? the small 1 and the big 1 under the bigger 1?
Ranerya's, wasnt shrewd and cunning enough,should have eliminated the dirty hightowers early on, manipulated a few of the
Crooked maestors.
None of these customs was outdated for the time period come on ppl stop looking at it from a 2022 lense
Clearly all Harwins idk why some people keep thinking Jace isn't when they made it so obvious he is Harwins son
it bugs me so much that this show cant decide what rules of Genetics they want to follow
Here is a big big clue as to who is not the father the kids are not black not in the slightest but yet the cousins born to daemon are they are darker than what their mother looked like at that age suggesting that their mother slept around with someone who is mixed or black so yeah casting is a total mess up they could of picked any other characters to be black but the ones we need to cast shadow over has made it difficult with more questions they needed to be consistent with casting the younger version black actors look nothing like the older versions it just shows they just wanted someone black not bothering about the story stupid
the change of actors + the totally random father was confusing me as hell....
Well they do look pretty strong 😀
Primogeniture was the main reason women's sexuality was so tightly controlled. Since women actually give birth, you always know who the mother is but the father's identity (before blood typing & genetic tests) could be open to conjecture. In the case of Rhaenyra, it shouldn't matter since she is the heir & future Queen, so the Targaryan line is passed down thru her anyway. As long as the children are claimed/acknowledged on the Valaryon side(her husband's family) it really shouldn't matter since the line of succession is not broken.
It is broken because her kids are not from the union of her and her husband. That’s literally the definition of “broken succession” they’re bastards who don’t have any claim to anything , although it’s not widely known yet
And it matters completely to other legitimate Valryon and Targaryen family members because their titles/lands will be inherited by bastards and not them, it doesn’t matter if the issue does not matter to you personally.
And you’re wrong about the line passing through Rhae, which it wouldn’t traditionally as she is a women and even if she is the heir, it wouldn’t pass through her because once again. Her kids are not legitimate.
well, obviously yes, the series clearly said so. In the books it is "strongly" inferred.
Looking at the show after this episode it hilights why making the Velaryons "black" was a brilliant creative choice. When switiching to a visual media they sometimes juxtapose features to make certain characters stand out. As it stands right now when u see a white character with the platinum blond hair on screen you automatically think "Targaryen" and a black person with the same hair colour "Velaryon". The princesses kids are neither.
No its not really a brilliant move. It makes things much more complex if you cannot be sure who is the correct parents. Making them black just means the story has a huge plot hole as EVERYONE knows the kids arent from wedlock. No more questions, not what ifs... they simply arent leanor's definitively.
@@TierDvik
you're missing the point. the show made it obvious that those kids can not be laenor's. they are brown-haired and white like harwin. they are even making this more obvious when you see the strong boys side by side with daemon's and laena's kids who have dark skin and curly white hair.
@@maggyfrog not missing anything. Yes it's obviously strongs kids and this they would never be in line to the throne. Rhea would never be accepted because she broke her vows. I understand that is the point they are making but doing I this way makes it so even if everyone accepted and wanted Rhea to be queen... It means the Targaryen rule is over with her passing. Noone who supports the Targaryen family line will accept it and it means she is at fault for all the conflicts coming up. Alicent is the good guy... Rhea is the bad. By changing the races and hair color of color of the grandmother they painted themselves into a corner. Where not doing those changes allows for intrigue and different opinions in who sides with who
@@TierDvik
if you remember, viserys made it clear to corlys that rhaenyra's heir will inherit the name targaryen regardless of gender. the rest of their kids will take the name velaryon. so, no, this would have kept the targaryen dynasty alive.
also, bastards do have a claim to inheritance. this is pretty clear in the books. let's say there was never any beef between alicent and rhaenyra and nobody ever challenges her claim, and let's say that it becomes public knowledge that the boys are harwin's kids, them being true dragonseeds still give them legitimate claim. jace would have been legitimized as a targaryen after rhaenyra.
cersei had robert's bastards killed (except gendry who escaped) so that nobody can claim the throne against joffrey.
there is an entire "blackfyre" rebellion in targaryen history regarding a bastard vs a trueborn.
so, all in all, the strong boys always had a legitimate claim to the throne because they are dragonseeds.
@@maggyfrog Bastards have a WEAK line of inheritance you know that right? Only if there are no legitimate heirs of the blood line.
Also they are NOT Valerian and can be disowned AS bastards much easier then claiming a bastard.
The only reason they were given the "they will take Targaryian name when they age" was because they would be a union of the two houses. That is not what happened so the kings decree is null and void UNLESS he decides to honor it.
Again... In this change... RHEA is the one at fault for the coming conflict 100% Where if they didnt make it... it runs a similar path to the Lancisters where there is doubt and doesnt cause a civil war.
He is the father I don't even know why the video was made ?
Yhe first one has got to be coles
Wheres Maury when you need him???
Certainly. Water should bead off their heads.
They certainly have dark hair like his. And did you see the way he smiled at the baby? Yeah. I think he believed it.
Their parentage doesn't even matter in the overall plot. Don't look so much into it lol
The ones that truly matter in the scheme of things are the other children Rhaenyra has later
Went to spouses who heavily have strong genes with silver hair and your child comes out brown hair and is well known that the male spouse is homosexual it’s not much to guess on clearly the male Refuse perform his duties to his house if I have any children and she was foolish enough to marry a man who did not match her lovers gens
She should’ve marry someone from how strong or Baratheon Or even the north
She doesn't wanted to marry she wants to be a prostitute
Pretty sure Robyn is Littlefingers.
I think Criston Cole is Jacaerys’s true father
There's a fanfiction with that idea. It's interesting because CC in the story he hates the child because it represents his broken oath and he conspires to set up harwin to acknowledge all 3 kids. I think makes sense to me.
@@lolawhiteeagle8933
It does not aemon is older than jac
Genetics are funny. I’m really fair skinned and my husband is the opposite (dark skinned Hispanic). Only one of our sons looks like him. The other is light like me and only has his dads eyes and nose.
It’s interesting that so many of the non book readers are spinning a narrative that does not happen in the book. No, Ser Cole is not the father of any of Rhaneria’s children. The Morning After Tea that was served to Rhaneria by the Maesster has been totally omitted from these wishful fantasies. Read the book.
The book that is well known to be written as a history text that is not accurate of the actual events and written by people with no first hand knowledge ??? 🤣
That one?
@@animeisthewayhaha Yes, the one written by George RR Martin, that never even alludes to by either Maester, or Mushroom, or septa and septon that Ser Cole might be the father of any of her children. If it was mentioned, please direct to the chapter. So much history is given in this book it is indeed possible it I might have missed it. However, until I see scripture & verse that this happened with one of her children, I stand by what I previously said.
@@animeisthewayhaha Oh by the way on page 368 of the hard cover book, “FIRE & BLOOD”, the fourth paragraph, the Princess is spurned by Ser Cole, and he is horrified by sexual advances. It also says that “Ser Criston was a true knight, noble and chaste and mindful of his vows…” So once again, No, Ser Cole is NOT the father of ANY of her children. However, if the the the show runners deviate from the source material, which they have been known to do, to create that scenario, then that is is a different situation. Reading is indeed fundamental. . .
@@animeisthewayhaha 'CRICKETS' I kind of thought so. . .
Exactly it frustrating asl reading as these dumbass theories and stupid dickriding of Rhae and her faction
I thought that Cole might be the father of Jace
My friend it's not Ve-LER-ion it's Ve-LOR-ion
Eve best legit has black hair Michelle fsurely had reddish long hair they had her grow it out up extensions in it and catelyn looked way better they legit could have just done the same thing with eve. They should have asked her to grow it out added extensions and bam you have her natural hair . They did the same thing with the actress who plays lysa they added extensions
yes
two "dark" parents can make a blonde baby, but two blondes cannot make a dark haired baby, of white skin...much less one parent being dark skinned. Those kids aren't Laenor's.
Our could the son of Ser Cristen.
Dont hate on the actors but Velaryons should be "latinos" spanish because white and american mixed and africans should be all the other nations outside westeros like Essos or even Dorne
Also because the brown hair could be from her grandparents i think
Those kids have no right to the throne
the oldest has to be Cristons
Nah Aemon is older that timeline don’t work
You really made this video huh?
The husband lost everything because of her
I will stick with the book. The show is great but I do not take it is the final facts
The Valeryian/Targaryen parents have silver hair, which is of course a dominant trait. Both kids have brown hair and all of the sets of grandparents have. silver hair.
Laenor’s Mom is half Baratheon. In the books I believe she had dark hair, now they’ve clearly deviated from the books settle for my genetics standpoint it is possible that they could to get dark hair.
@@dianasmith8248 yes but it's not a Dominant trait , it's extremely rare for someone of Valerian blood to be born without it. In all of GoT, F&B & HotD there's only 1 character born without that dominate trait Jon Snow. I mean We're completely ignoring the skin color which also seems to be a dominate trait. In the tv show we even see a two generations of mixed parents and the kids are predominantly Dark skin with silver hair. But Jace & Luke are light skinned and dark haired.
@@chrissangenette6359 I know, but it can happen so you can’t rule anything out.
I thought rhaenyra first child was ser Christian coles
LOL this really needed a video? Whats next? "Do dragons really hatch from eggs? - an ivestigation" hahaha
They may be Harwins but they are Targaryen’s
Come on man.Of coarse he was bonin her.
shes a 304 period
Stick to videos bro. The genetics make it possible for those to be Laenor's kids based on recessive traits. You declaring it "null and void" because of the genetics of the parents is a fundamental misunderstanding of how genes manifest.
if you have to guess who the father is she's a
sus
spoiler:
it's not possible for criston to be jace's father. he's going to become "kingmaker". it makes no sense for him to crown a "green" if his own kid is a "black". criston fathering jace is a tinfoil theory.
This makes the leap that Cole knows. How would be know if he was never told??? Would explain how he came to hate the princess as much as he does. Thinking she replaced him so easily. But yes in the book it wouldn't be possible because the falling out happened a few years before Jace's birth but the show said it's been 10 years and Jace looks pretty damn close to 10
They have already played with the timeline a bit
Its not a bad change from the book imo
@@animeisthewayhaha
just because they streamlined the events in the show doesn't mean that they are going to change the narrative of the book. the narrative is that those boys are harwin's kids. george could have easily written otherwise but that simply isn't the case. there is no reason why the show would deviate from the book just to appear dumb in the show. there is zero logic as to why rhaenyra would keep it a secret from criston if jace is his kid. literally, she would instead use that information to have him back in her arms.
@@animeisthewayhaha
How does that work if Aemon looks older than Jac
Can anyone who read the book confirm if Ser Harwin and Rhaeryna had a romantically built up relationship or they had a chemistry or mention of details of it cause the time jump and the quick shift in relationship dynamic by the show runner feels forced thru my throat. I don’t feel anything about most of the characters!
Harwin is barely mentioned in the book at all. Just mostly in passing as a possibility of being the father of the rumored bastard children. Just picture the book as one majorly flawed historical text because the events of the dance was written many years after it
Yes they did. Harwin was her champion at her wedding tourney, in that same tourney, Joffrey had Laenor's favor while Criston wore Alicent's. It was during that tourney that Criston killed Joffrey. Then Harwin and Laenor were both in the room as she gave birth to her second son, Luke.
Wow, what a VILE INSINUATION.
What's there to say laenors black, the kids are white af.
Technically laenor is half black and white. In fact his mother is half Baratheon, so while we know he isn’t the father, nobody else can say so for sure because it is possible that his kids could look like they do.
Jon snow doesn't have very Stark features, he looks more like Eddard Stark than Rob (who may have been Brandon Stark's son).
Ashara Dayne threw herself from the tower, maybe the one who dishonoured her was Brandon Stark.
Jon is Rhaegar and lyanna's son that confirmed in the TV show
@@tanxilhanif that show has nothing to do with the books, it's nothing more than fanfiction after few episodes of season 5.
@@ashesofhopesinabonfireofdr6341 What they did to Stannis was rough.
@@henriquecesardesouzasilva8766 that show's episode 3 of season 8 was the best example of the garbage writing that dragged the show through the mud.
Stannis is the rightful heir to the iron throne and you kill him off screen like that?
shame
@@ashesofhopesinabonfireofdr6341 True they changed alot of things on their own but i dont think they changed this their alot of clues for this and they cant change such an important thing plus i don't know if u know when those A-holes went to meet george to ask his permission to make TV adaptation of his books George told them I'll ask u one question if u answered that correctly u've my permission who is Jon's mother
Are Rhaenyra’s Children Truly Fathered By Harwin Strong? Duh.... but the eldest maybe not hehehehe