I have Been Buying Audio Gear for 50plus years i have met all the big name Designers & the best hi End audio dealers than most I can can Honestly say you have to be The Honest & well devirst hi Fi Guy Every I am Glad to call you my go to Guy Thank you for all your Help Now Lets EAT😋
Good one. I had an Audible Illusions L3. Dual Mono, Separate power supply. Paid $2k new. Paired with a used a Cary 120 Amp. Was very warm and involving. Then one or the other required work. While in the shop I spied a pair of Amp camp Mini monos built right. The sound was enough to convince me to sell the amp/preamp and buy a Pass INT25. Reliable. US made. Magical sound. Would love to a/b with a Roland someday.
Just found you.. Not enough cash to enjoy... But enough knowledge, heart and an ear to appreciate. So, Hello... Thanks and maybe I'll chime in on another video.
Cool video. I feel like you're my buddy with the 911 and i rally you in my modified miata. I stream quobuz through audirvana into a mini dsp studio. The studio only has digital out so i picked up a mytek liberty dac to get a balanced signal to the amps.The mini dsp is cool as it has dirac live for my bass correction and i love the parametric eq for some custom house curves. I built my own speakers. I use a single driver with a custom super tweeter in an aperiodic transmission line cab. I built some GaN fet mono blocks from orchard audio and have been brainstorming some ideas for some diy cables. They only have to be 2 footers so I'm thinking silver wire litz. I'm happy with my progress and feel good about my choices. I really enjoy watching your videos just like I'll watch some miata videos with ls motor swaps. It's all good. I wish you much success and thank you for your creations.
You're crazy man, I've tried all the DAC preamp situations and passive line stages and any number of situations over the years. There has never been one time where having a preamp in between source and Poweramp didn't make the sound better. Every time I've run straight DAC into a power amp and used some sort of inbuilt volume scheme everything I listen to can sound crystalline and clear but to me it also sounds lifeless and flat at the same time. I don't care what you say a preamp is critical and almost universally makes what comes out of the speakers sound better.
Lol. You don't have enough experience. I do. So no matter what you think or say, a Playback Designs DAC will smoke your preamp, I don't care if you have a $30K preamp. I'll put money on it.
I love it when your told you don't have the experience to hear what your hearing. Makes me think of the old saying "practice makes perfect" when in reality practice makes permanent, not necessarily better.
@@bradt.3555 Not sure you get it. Let's say you've heard 8 guitars but never a Les Paul. You claim guitars need a sustain pedal no matter what and you use a Strat. So you don't have enough experience to understand that no sustain pedal is needed if you use a Les Paul. Same thing. This guy has never heard a Playback Designs DAC. It does NOT require a preamp to "make things better" like nearly every other DAC. Clearly if you play records you need a preamp. There's no way around that.
Totally agree! Unfortunately I am not digital only and use the inbuilt phonostage on my Burmester 088…..I agree though that with a kick ass DAC, the preamp is redundant
I have DCS Bartok now but my trade in getting Apex Rossini Dac end of the month with separate master clock. Took a few months to get in. I do have a Prima Luna tube pre-amp that I tube rolled recently with some vintage 1950's tubes. I just love the sound of it. Everyone has a different flavor of ice cream they like. I tried Audio Research Ref 6se pre-amp that already had burn in hours (store model) my audio place brought out but I just didn't care for it.
@@JingoLoBa57 For my room it just put the stage with vocals too far back for my taste. My personal listening is like I am in a small setting in a dive bar and the singer is on stage and I am front row or just a few back and the music is washing over me and I get lost in it. The Audio research I felt like I was in a huge stadium and the singer and stage were pushed way far back and I lost the enchantment I wanted. I guess it's all what the goals are of the listener and what they find desirable.
A pre-amp is the most critical component in any high-end music system. 2nd only to the speakers. For anything less the internal volume control of any DAC is perfectly OK.
EXCEPT when its a Playback Designs MPD-8.. then it beats any Preamp in the way.. If you use an Analog source as well though, you have no choice but to use preamp.. and add some sonic counterpart.
Have you heard the T+A pre-dac SDV 3100 HV? It has a volume control with 1 XLR and 1 RCA input, allowing you to add two analog sources. Digital conectivity is off the charts. TAS had an extensive review in issue 300.
Lol. T+A. OK stuff, not great Digital connectivity is off the charts ? Does it have ST Digital Glass fiber twist lock input ? Didn't think so. Playback Designs Does. It's OK stuff tho...
Just bought an integrated amp, the Kora TB200 (which is a hybrid amp, using tubes and solidstate) to power a iso-magnetic planar speaker (Dyptique DP160 SIGNATURE with external crossovers). I might try to borrow a dac with preamp since the Kora integrated amp can bypass the preamp...curious to try out a playback design mpd-8. I have the Aqau Acoustic La Voce S3 dac with the 432 EVO AEO streamer and really happy with it
That was eye opening. It will be a long time, if ever, that I will have the experience of using a DAC that would replace my preamp. It would be super special if I knew someone with the PlayBack Design piece you spoke of, and could stick it into my system just for giggles. But like most people on my level, I’ve reached nirvana with my current rig. Nice discussion OCD!
Don't you think it advisable to move your listening chair forward from the back wall? I used to have that setup and everything sounded 2D and flat although it did reinforce the bass quite a bit ... if that's what you're after.
Thanks 🙏 Yes something I have thought about back and forth. On one hand less is more then I understand those who say it is fairy dust.. (tone control/colouration) But another reason is they have is they "impedance matching" between the preamp and power amplifier? How much does that make a difference or is output from let's start with cheap DACs that most have, are their impedance less a match than output than from a preamp?? (Generally speaking) Maybe no real concern in practice? That is good to know.
There is no "impedance matching" you simply must have 10 times the input impedance than you do the output impedance, and Playback has extremely low output impedance. Also, with amplifiers like Jeff Rowland, there are input transformers which render the output impedance of the source moot. It does not matter how high it is, it's irrelevant. So I appreciate you pointing this out however impedance matching means nothing in the systems I sell. In other words I figure it out for my clients beforehand so they don't need to and so that my systems work perfectly to the point I give a money back guarantee on my complete systems. ;-)
Hi Mikey, I love the sound of the fairy dust my vintage VacuumState FVP5A sprinkles on my Jazz vinyl collection as it has one of the best phono stages built in. I purchased this new over or instead of an Audio Research and VTL preamplifier for the sound. Advances in DAC technology is moving so fast that there’s a newer and better DAC every month. I suppose that’s good for your business but from this side of the fence it doesn’t make sense to me. Good manufactures of real high end components should offer upgrades, no matter how old the component is, as has been the case with my VacuumState preamplifier/Line-stage. Thanks for the rant, I’ve always admired your passion for what you do.
DACs are actually NOT changing at all. They are making crap up to make it SEEM like it's new, but its not. DACs are at a standstill. Streamers are changing every week.
@@OCDHIFiGuy My "new" DAC is a Emotiva XDA-1 with a 1955 DAC chip. The differences include Panasonic power caps, some filter caps, etc. and ESPECIALLY, replaced the 50 cent lowest grade 5 regulators with $50 each regulators (mini-circuit boards on each). Also removed the magnetic steel cover (plexiglass with design aeration holes). No Op-amp in audio section, fully discrete audio board (Op-amp in the DC/AC converter as typical except Lampizator which uses a passive design). Really phenomenal for $400 in parts.
Yeah I don't care so much about the looks of my system I care more about the sound I use a emotiva preamp for my volume it cost $220 and my system rocks it sounds like I'm at a concert thanks for the advice Mikey keep on keeping it real man
Great topic, enjoyed this one. Is the preamp First Sound Presence Deluxe? I know the Presence Deluxe MKIII retailed for about $5000 but that was a few years back.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I will. For me the DAC’s job is dealing with my Innuos STATEMENT and the transport. Then there’s the reel to reel and the turntable. Let’s not forget the cassette deck
Does the MPD8 have a class A input buffer? Or does it just attenuate the volume passively with a gain cell connected to a R2R resistor ladder volume control?
back in my day long before DAC You NEEDed the line stage it was the Comand center In todays world to enjoy kick ass sound and all the music in the world all you need is YES The Big $$$$$ DAC LIKE THE 1 ONE You Sold ME 🤩😍
I think Mike is absolutely right here. The "magic fairy dust" is GAIN which most cheaper DACs are going to struggle with, especially ones that just take the voltage straight from the output of the chip itself in the case of integrated circuit DACs. They can sound ok but you will struggle to drive a demanding amp especially with longer interconnect runs. I'd be curious to know what Mike's opinion is on digital vs analog volume control though.
Analog Volume control trumps Digital. Digital truncates bits off the datastream. The magic fairy dust is transient response. Most DACs can't output a perfect square wave like Playback Designs.
What you say is materially correct. DAC architecture is about transferring data and high frequency switching. Done properly digital is as lossless as it gets. It gets messy when you have the analogue signal to transmit. Analogue is fragile and easy to distort and is subject to subtle changes as it passes from stage to stage. Preamps that do least harm to analogue signals are often the best. They are difficult to get right. If you only have one preamp stage being fed from the output of the DAC in the same piece of equipment, you probably will preserve a higher proportion of the analog signal to pass on to the power amplifiers. In analogue systems as you said, the preamp is a pinch point that can make or break the personality of the system. Signal processing in the digital domain has become the norm in professional circles because fidelity is maintained and measurably so.
Mikey, Have you tried any Lumin streamers/DACs with the Leedh volume control? I'm surprised by your Meitner MA3 statement, the latest Stereophile review comparing the MA3 to a dCs Rossini didn't use a preamp relying on the DAC's analog output stage and volume control to direct drive the amp.
What are your thoughts on the Parasound P6? I'd like to buy one to provide an analog sub crossover for my record player. The dac also handles dsd 256 and has a remote and keeps the towers and subs volume in sync
Most important question that was not answered would be by adding a preamp to a digital system, the overall volume on the speakers will decrease / increase or stay the same at max volume settings. + Low level listening volume adjustment would be easier to cope with ?
What about home cinema integration? I need the home theater bypass on my preamp to use the same power amps for stereo and surround. Any way to make this happen without a preamp?
You are right that technically most line level systems don't really need a preamp as long as it has a volume control. In a digital front end you can get level control digitally or it comes with an output stage with a volume control. If you have a integrated amp, you don't need a preamp of course. Most modern integrated amps don't even have a preamp stage, essentially a power amp with a volume control at the input. I'm not a purist so I prefer to have a tube line preamp to flavor the sound. I build my own. Yes, I like coloration and harmonic distortions to thicken the sound of anemic tinny recordings, especially a lot of pop records. It's really not that hard to build "neutral" sounding preamps to be honest. But neutral is boring. Neutered is more like it. I just like adding something to the sound so obviously not a The Absolute Sound type of guy. Just personal preference, that's all. Happy listening.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I'm a 98% classical guy. I find there is a slight variation between recordings' R/L balance. I frequently need to "right the ship". I wish it were not so. I'd love to be able to can the preamp.
Absolutely. Though an integrated amp includes a preamp inside. With a good DAC volume control you can buy a higher quality power amp. In other words there's ony one or two integrated amps I know of that can stand up to seperates of the same level.
What about someone who has a good dac without a volume control? You can use a passive volume control instead of a preamp. It might be a good solution for someone who just can't afford to buy all new gear.
Mikey I am using an old Denon PRA 1500 preamp with balanced outputs to a Primaluna Dialogue premium HD AMP. I can’t find one reason to purchase a different more expensive pre. What’s the best DAC under 500 bucks you have every listen to?
Did listen to an integr. Luxman 590 last week, really great AMP for ~10k. Prefered it even against the 19k Mcintosh 12000. Really wonder If i need more or If i hear any difference. luxman also great for phono, great allrounder IMO
@@nathanbell6962 I guess I have to watchout for integrated amps too because they really perform very well and you really have to dig deep to justify an entire fleet of equipment in splitting up everything, from costs, energy costs, cable management and cable costs between the gear. I would not mind spending more as an Luxman 590AXII, I consider it "cheap" in this hifi world. But I don´t want to spend more just to spend more. The McI 12000 really was not able to beat the Luxman 590, even I wanted the McI to win because I really liked the design. But design does not tower over price/listening experience so we stayed with the Luxman testing different speakers over hours. FinkTeam Borg where the one I wanted to listen to and they where GREAT. Next time I will compare them to the new PSaudio speakers. I will hope again that the PSaudio wins because the design is so beautiful which was the reason to go look out for new speakers because mine are so ugly. Sadly the FinkTeam, as great as they are didn´t blow mine out of the window (IMO) which was on one hand great but on the other a bit frustrating when you want to buy something new and it damn well should be better when you going to spend 30k on speakers. Really wonder if all that upgrading will make that much of a difference, you know splitting everything up, using special cables... Damn covid restrictions here in germany, would really like to fly to Mikey and Jay to get a feeling of what is possible and checking for myself if I hear the difference
@@77MovieFan Interesting read, good luck on your hifi journey. Sounds like your doing a full system upgrade, which I personally wouldn't do. One part at a time is much better. I have a luxman lx380 tube integrated and a Denafrips terminator with PMC speakers. But my budget is a lot less than yours. Check out that amp if you can, even at 30watts it's great. PMC seem a good choice for luxman, they use that brand to demo their amps. I'd buy cables and power conditioner later and focus on the main components. Have a great day 🙂
@@nathanbell6962 THX for the feedback Yes I´m doing a full intergration of an stereo line in my livingroom/homecinema. Manfred Zoller selfbuild speakers Imagination 3he, Rotel 1095 5ch-amp, Denon 4200w amp (sort of used as a preamp & driving the 2 rears), Oppo for SACD/DVD-Audio, Panasonic 9000 for Bluray/UHD and CD over the analog section of the Pana player. MediaPlayer PC and absolute cheap cables everywhere. I wanted to have a chain just for stereo, tube amps, turntable ... Maybe I will put an speaker-switch in the chain so I can have to amps with my 1-set of speakers. Something like the luxman as a base is a no-go for homecinema, it would toast you after some time in that room. Yes I guess I´m a long way from knowing what I will buy, Denafrips and HoloAudio where the start of my research because they seem to be the BEST when you consider price-performance ratio. Because support, guarantee and the way the workers get handled from these producers I really focus more on "western-made" gear (including japan). So atm I skip the china gear The strangest thing to me at the moment is that my chain isn´t that special at all, it was not that expensive, doesn´t generate that much heat, heck I play from a windows pc over hdmi using Kodi with madvr integration, Windows wasapi and Denon in pure audio mode. I can tell you, after listening for 8hours to the WAY more expensive gear at my dealer, coming home, listening to my chain again I´m a bit sad and frustrated that my mood or will of changing everything is weakening. My system really sound great to me and I don´t understand how that is possible. Sure I don´t have the knowledge to recognize everything in this space but I´m not deaf. I did hear differences at my dealer when we changed the speakers. I liked the finkTeam Borg the best which the dealer did agree, even more expensive speakers where not as great to him too. So I´m not that bad in this stuff but as I said I did listen for days at home, putting together my fave songs, trying to remember how they sounded and then listened for 8hours at my dealer to the same songs and doing this again a day after at home just for checking again. Always same conclusion, I didn´t miss anything at home of what I had listened there. Sure my friend say, keep your stuff, you are happy, you said it yourself, the Borg and Luxman ... didn´t blow your system out of the room. Keep it save the money. I guess the only people who can understand this of "still wanting to change something" are you guys Next weeks I will compare the Luxman 590 against 595 and after that testing the Borg against the PSaudio. If the Borg 2-way system from FinkTeam stays on top I will try speakers in the 60-70k league, maybe something in this range will blow me away
@@77MovieFan yes stay away from chi fi unless you just want to take a chance. Have you looked at a ddc? If your using your PC as front end it's essential. I would put more emphasis on your front end, maybe a chord Dave or something. Whatever you do enjoy the music:) and check out jcat stuff
Thank you Mikey!! Perhaps I'll resubscribe to your channel. I recently switched out my preamp (because I damaged my remote doing dumb shit) - trying relay/resistor attenuators & 2 other preamps only to find that the "magic" in my system comes from an Accuphase clone preamp that just makes music sound alive in a way I can't reproduce any other way. I use single-ended interconnects to hear the magic - the DAC and preamp have true balanced topologies but don't deliver - go figure. The rest of my system is very musical - great vintage speakers (Spendor SP9/1's tri-wired) and 100 pounds of Class A 100 watt amplifier with a totally tricked out R2R DAC (linear power supplies, etc). Fairy dust it is!!
Hey! Another SP9/1 Owner! 🤓 Did you know that only 463 Pairs have been build for the world? So yes, it’s a rare baby! Currently using a Pass Labs INT 60 with it… thinking about selling it and switch to a PowerAmp with my Wadia Dac… which Class A Amp Do you use? The 9/1 definitely need some more Power in the back …
N-051 amplifier clone A-70, these speakers sound amazing with a modern amp that can deliver current, the bass extension is much better than I realized.
i have owned Pre's by Roland, ARC, Jadis, Auddible Illusions and feel that the ingrates have gotten so good that they will suffice. get a hybrid integrated, best of both worlds
"World Class" is a term used in music production, and is a VERY specific term to describe the level of the facility, the gear and the engineers. It is to be used lightly. PLAYBACK Designs has a World Class volume control and associated output stage. I am the top USA seller for this brand.
I don’t agree with you, if a high end DAC has volume control, I wander if it is even high end gear? I recently upgraded my line stage to audio reference ref6, and could not believe how it improved the 3D sound stage and top end. At this price point each component is dedicated to its own task. Depending on the line stage and how much you are willing to spend.
I like pre amps for there esthetics. Some of them are fine pieces of art. But, I agree with your advice. Pre amps also mean extra cables. Less can be more.
Love your vids Mikey. I upgraded to a new pre-amp/power amp combo recently (michi P5/S5) and I'm the first to admit I'm a dinosaur thinker. The pre isn't just the volume actuator for me, it has a DAC that I love the sound of and a great phono stage. I use the digital ins for my streamer and CD player and I'm very happy. My ATC's sound amazing. I know I could have bought an integrated amp but I moved on from those 20 years ago (to be honest I don't really know why, I somehow convinced myself they weren't as good as a pre).
Because of impedance matching, if you have both from the same brand, it pays off as it was designed and thoroughly tested only for that particular amplifier tier (same brand but each tier with the corresponding preamp tier). So if the amp is very wide bandwidth e.g. 800kHz or even 3MHz then preamp better be wide bandwidth too (and DAC as well, and music server, and all cables in between, all widest possible bandwidth - let us all remember a notorious truth that 3 things and only 3 things are important in jitter: noise, clock, and bandwidth). That's my strategy in the face of quadrillion of possible combinations. Psychoacoustics tells us that neuron firing/impulse rate on the auditory nerve depends on both the sound intensity and the frequency of the sound e.g. neurons do not fire on every oscillation cycle of frequency f for very faint sounds (but tend to fire on the peaks of/in phase with a cycle). And the Just Noticeable Difference (JND, in dB) in human hearing is ~ 0.5 dB - yet another psycho-acoustic fact. So what about all those "nuances"? The context of listening impacts the sound perception and we have no control over contexts (which themselves are multi-dimensional; maybe you were pissed one day, or double pissed the next day etc). Hence, any tweaks such as 0.001dB etc are futile and misleading. No causation, just (misinterpreted though real in placebo sense) correlation in the context of that particular day the designer was about to submit his design to production (or reviewer testing remarks just before it goes to publishing). Different brain areas (prefrontal, frontal, temporal lobe, striatal, hippocampal, left and right, and so on) process the same sound sequence all at the same time i.e. in parallel and each of these areas is affected by both narrow and broader contexts of the particular listening session. Now, one can imagine how promulgated he is going to be to discover all sorts of "nuances" if he just plunged $14000 on some 0.001dB level tweaked device and all of his brain areas titillating on this investment.
Smart amplifier manufacturers put input transformers on the input stage to make upstream impedance moot. Or you make your DAC output impedance less than 1 Ohm like Playback Designs does. Smart design needs no impedance "Matching". All the other theory means nothing other than what is the experience one receives. If we really want to get picky Spec is not a way to buy .. listening is.
A lot of time 0.001db has no difference because you are measuring the unit itself at line level of 2v or 4v. Only voltage is measured. Nobody will tell you how much is this 0.001db difference being amplified at 50watt and above. In watt you have to factor in current and power factor which ASR love to ignore. Even in speaker cable 0.001 db difference can be amplified by because you are passing current through it. You are measuring the speaker cable at line level from APx 555.
It was called a receiver. Record player, receiver, equalizer, tape deck. Sometimes there was a seperate amplifier but not very often in complete rack units sold to most people.
Gilad Tiefenbrun presented his new Klimax Streamer tonight at LMC Entertainment in Scottsdale, Arizona. They demo'ed it and I must say it was very clean sounding. Reason I mention this is Gilad began with a talk about his new product-"Replacing a preamp". Preamps just get no love these days.
Don't know him or his company. Many guys seem to pop up making servers/streamers. I wish him luck ! Preamp get no love as they are antiquated. Like a classic car. Fun for Sunday drives but no longer necessary as a daily driver. ;-)
Clearly Jeffrey you don't know hi-fi. If you did you'd know exactly what I mean by sprinkle fairy dust on the audio from preamps. What you don't even understand is that I'm giving them props. I'm telling you they make everything sound better. I know of one DAC only that beats every preamp I threw at it. I'll stake my reputation on it. They are $24,000 each. I'm the top seller in the United States. Hilarious.
Anything with a volume knob, one, or multiple inputs & stereo outputs it is a preamp. If it has a dac & speaker outputs, it's an integrated amp, or receiver which could have a headphone output. If it only has digital inputs & analog outputs it's a dac preamp which might also have a headphone output. In any case, if it has a volume knob, or push button volume control, it is a preamp.
What's the problem Mikey? Well, my budget for my hifi is less than $20,000, so I can answer who needs a preamp with MOST PEOPLE. I listen to vinyl and digital, need and like my preamp. I enjoy my music, I listen most evenings for a couple of hours, I love the sound. Not likely to be ditching my pre any time soon, and I don't think (respectfully) that I am stuck in the past, there is a bright future for preamps still I think. Lets see if you will be selling preamps in 5 years from now haha.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Oh i love digital too, but there is not parity between what i can listen to digitally and analog yet. in fact there may never be parity. so i still require a turntable. love your work bro! have a great day
It is not old school when the pre-amp has ability to connect R2R, cassette (legacy), vinyl and 78s (shellac) as well as lesser equipment like a DAC without the SOTA volume controls (some do not have any volume controls). Streaming only-no need for a high end system. My friend who is a 100% digital server/thumbdrive/computer system uses an Audio Research SP28 (with 6N6 tubes) which enhances his $500,000+ system.
I was completely with you until you got to this $7500 line. There is some superb sounding and performing DACs with bit perfect volume attenuation far cheaper than this. Bit perfect volume is relatively simple and cheap to implement.
When you say bit perfect in relation to a volume control, what do you exactly mean? If you have an analog volume control, it won't be a factor, but if you have a digital volume control, resolution does change as you alter the volume. I've never heard of anyone getting around that problem.
I really really want to believe you for good reasons. But inserting a Naim 552 or top of the audio research reference preamp to any decent system, I can’t say anything against it. It’s not about sound, it’s about better understanding emotion side of musician’s intention or ‘rightness’ of a piece of music. Hard to explain but it’s real.
My advice is wear a baseball cap backwards, place your sunglasses backwards on your baseball cap visor, and use your hands to shade your eyes from the Sun
I was skeptical but purchased a Wattson Madison Streamer that has an internal DAC and variable volume control and was amazed at the difference in streaming it directly to the AMP with a great interconnect vs just plugging the streamer into my preamp. I am seriously considering selling my TT ($ 9000 with cartridge and a Chinook line stage used $ 1675 ) and vinyl after comparing the two i.e. Tidal HD streaming via Roon content and well-deserved Vinyl like Neil Youngs Harvest and listening to Tin Pan Alley. I was blown away by the doubling of just the sound stage alone just to give you some perspective.
Iv read on some hifi forums they brought the gear for how it looks iv never understood that i wouldnt care if it was the ugliest piece of gear in the world its all about the sound to me
Maybe but here's the problem. These streamers with DACs are not cheap! You can get an integrated amp or a preamplifier with a built in DAC and streamer and have the versatility of adding components down the road. Take for example McIntosh MS500 streamer which I love but it costs $6000. Can it be used as a volume control or do you need a preamplifier with it? And if you are paying big $ for a McIntosh amplifier and preamplifier then why would you settle for an entry level $500 Bluesound streamer? Am I missing something? That's why Cambridge and NAD simplify matters and provide you with components with built-in state of the art DACs and streamers. I'm sure there are others too.
I get you . However Cambridge and NAD are not state of the art in my world whatsoever. Nobody said excellence was cheap... MCIntosh is a has been company to me. Used to be great, now cool looking but nothing special as far as sound is concerned... Thanks for your feedback.
Right, but can Playback Designs DAC give you 50V peak-to-peak output as state of the art Topping Pre90 preamp for $599? I bet not. This is the best preamp I tested, absolutely transparent and distortion free, blackest background, keeps qualities of the source intact (very rare, actually no other pre I tried did it even very expensive ones). Spoils nothing just adds dynamics and scale to the sound. From Stereophile test: "The Pre90 preamplifier's measured performance is simply superb. The fact that that performance can be achieved in such a small chassis and for such a low price suggests that Topping has some serious audio engineering talent in-house.-John Atkinson".
Marcin, why don't you ask Alex Peychev how he likes the Topping DACs "total piece of shit" is about how it went. Besides is it made in China ? 🇨🇳 you go ahead with your Chinese "State of the art" and yes, 50V peak to peak is exactly what this output stage has.
The facts are the opposite. Pre90 is excellent and cheap preamp. I understand your frustration though... My point is, that such a preamp like Topping Pre90 gives you the freedom to choose any DAC you like with even weak, low gain output stage. You do not have to fork out $25.000 for a DAC. There are many great DAC's up to $2000 (not only Chinese) and Pre90 will pass their sonic character intact, only adding some muscle and scale. I tried dozens od preamps, top accuphase, top tube audio note, Kondo pure silver M7 "gem", Jeff Rowland, Krell, Pass Labs, Electrocompaniet, Abrahamsen, old Sonic Frontiers models and others. Pre90 is the first preamp that does not introduce anything bad to the sound. Yes, soundwise it is STATE OF THE ART, period. Only it's remote is kind of weak...
@@marcinwasilewski5414 You're so full of shit I can smell your breath over my internet connection. You never owned any of the stuff you listed in your post. "Trying" to someone like you means you went to an audio store. It also means you never put your Topping next to any of the preamps you "tried", and did a fair comparison. Here's what really happened. You were over at junk science audio review, and fell for a clown trying to build his youtube channel by telling everyone what they want to hear. Isn't it incredible how the best audio components are always the cheap ones? That's exactly what you want to hear. Every time I go over to Amir's channel, I prove that he's not doing science. Try finding one of my posts. You can't. Why? Amir pulls them. The only reason you pull a post is you don't want someone to read it.
@@marcinwasilewski5414 , Check out Amir at audio science review, He tested a bunch of DACs, cheap to expensive and found things that owners of multi thousand dollar DACs will deny till death. The 200 dollar one he tested out performed many multi 1000 ones.
@@bradt.3555 So what? outperformed on his limited technical testing. What about aural testing-listening/hearing to sound and especially music? Amir-check out the 1000s of people repelled by him on Audiogon, CZcams and other sites. He has his devotees. Good luck to them. I am one of those repelled. Cables, fuses, etc. are all the same to him if they measure the same-where did I hear that slogan (hint 1970s Stereo Magazine).
Big fan. I'm looking to buy an Esoteric $25k CD/SACD player which is equipped with volume control. My plans were to run it direct to my Pass Labs amp, but the dealer tells me I need a good preamp. Hey man, I'm already spending $25 grand and you're probably making a nice spiff, now you want to squeeze me for more dough. He just lost a sale; another Esoteric dealer is right around the corner.
Daniel, consider the Playback Designs MPD-8 made in USA by the inventor of Sample Rate Conversion and DSD. It's 24K, and has a Volume control that so far beat out even my top 26K linestage. Esoteric leans analytical and sharp sounding. This is why he said it "needs" a preamp. The MPD-8 in my videos beat out an $80K MSB. Just call me if you'd like to know more. I'm the top Playback Designs seller on the globe. There's a reason. ;-)
I like that my pre-amp is tubed and has a home theater pass through. This lets me run both my home theater and my audio system in my limited space. Definitely wouldn’t change it…. Has definitely been worth the money for me. :) Ummm…okay, if i hit the lottery and build a new house, certainly the theater space and audio space would be separate.
who in the hell can afford 15 $20,000 for a piece of equipment to listen to music on? where the hell do these people work what do they do for a living? where are these jobs at? God damn I listen to music on a $10 speaker I got from Walgreens streaming from my phone. that's all I can afford right now and you know what music sounds fine. if I'm going to spend a bunch of money on a musical experience it's going to be attending a live performance
Common man if it was “all about the music” then you’d be happy with an iPhone and Spotify. Look what u did with the preamp. Your totally into gear and selling it.
What are you, literal symantics guy ? Of course you need gear to make it sound good. If YOU were really about music it would be a clock radio and not a thousand dollar cel phone plus a monthly fee.. in fact if you were REALLY about the music you'd go watch it live and totally forget playback. In fact if you were REALLY REALLY about the music, you'd be a musician.... so I get your game... you do not have enough time under your belt as an Audiophile to understand what I'm saying, and in what context. It's all good tho.. keep on watching, you'll get it...
I have Been Buying Audio Gear for 50plus years i have met all the big name Designers & the best hi End audio dealers than most I can can Honestly say you have to be The Honest & well devirst hi Fi Guy Every I am Glad to call you my go to Guy Thank you for all your Help Now Lets EAT😋
Right on Greg, glad to know you Bro !
That’s the coolest amp I ever seen!!! Nice 👍
Good one. I had an Audible Illusions L3. Dual Mono, Separate power supply. Paid $2k new. Paired with a used a Cary 120 Amp. Was very warm and involving. Then one or the other required work. While in the shop I spied a pair of Amp camp Mini monos built right. The sound was enough to convince me to sell the amp/preamp and buy a Pass INT25. Reliable. US made. Magical sound. Would love to a/b with a Roland someday.
To me there's a problem if something just breaks and needs to go to the shop. Rowland and Pass are different animals. I've got great respect for both.
Loved the bug running down the shirt @ beginning...🤣
A flea got loose !!
Just found you.. Not enough cash to enjoy... But enough knowledge, heart and an ear to appreciate. So, Hello... Thanks and maybe I'll chime in on another video.
Thanks brotha, please sub to support !
I could not agree more.
Cool video. I feel like you're my buddy with the 911 and i rally you in my modified miata. I stream quobuz through audirvana into a mini dsp studio. The studio only has digital out so i picked up a mytek liberty dac to get a balanced signal to the amps.The mini dsp is cool as it has dirac live for my bass correction and i love the parametric eq for some custom house curves. I built my own speakers. I use a single driver with a custom super tweeter in an aperiodic transmission line cab. I built some GaN fet mono blocks from orchard audio and have been brainstorming some ideas for some diy cables. They only have to be 2 footers so I'm thinking silver wire litz. I'm happy with my progress and feel good about my choices. I really enjoy watching your videos just like I'll watch some miata videos with ls motor swaps. It's all good. I wish you much success and thank you for your creations.
Preach! Makes so much sense. What about power amps with a stepped attenuator added?
Can be very nice...
You're crazy man, I've tried all the DAC preamp situations and passive line stages and any number of situations over the years. There has never been one time where having a preamp in between source and Poweramp didn't make the sound better. Every time I've run straight DAC into a power amp and used some sort of inbuilt volume scheme everything I listen to can sound crystalline and clear but to me it also sounds lifeless and flat at the same time. I don't care what you say a preamp is critical and almost universally makes what comes out of the speakers sound better.
Lol. You don't have enough experience. I do. So no matter what you think or say, a Playback Designs DAC will smoke your preamp, I don't care if you have a $30K preamp. I'll put money on it.
I love it when your told you don't have the experience to hear what your hearing. Makes me think of the old saying "practice makes perfect" when in reality practice makes permanent, not necessarily better.
If you can convince Jay who has plenty of experience then come back to us…. :)
@@bradt.3555 yeah exactly like he's some sort of arbiter of what constitutes not only good sound but ability to perceive good sound
@@bradt.3555 Not sure you get it. Let's say you've heard 8 guitars but never a Les Paul. You claim guitars need a sustain pedal no matter what and you use a Strat. So you don't have enough experience to understand that no sustain pedal is needed if you use a Les Paul. Same thing. This guy has never heard a Playback Designs DAC. It does NOT require a preamp to "make things better" like nearly every other DAC. Clearly if you play records you need a preamp. There's no way around that.
Totally agree! Unfortunately I am not digital only and use the inbuilt phonostage on my Burmester 088…..I agree though that with a kick ass DAC, the preamp is redundant
I have DCS Bartok now but my trade in getting Apex Rossini Dac end of the month with separate master clock. Took a few months to get in. I do have a Prima Luna tube pre-amp that I tube rolled recently with some vintage 1950's tubes. I just love the sound of it. Everyone has a different flavor of ice cream they like. I tried Audio Research Ref 6se pre-amp that already had burn in hours (store model) my audio place brought out but I just didn't care for it.
Whereas my ARC LS10SE is an awesome piece of kit… fed by the ARC Ref CD9 with tube output stage, four DAC’s on board 2x channel.
@@JingoLoBa57 For my room it just put the stage with vocals too far back for my taste. My personal listening is like I am in a small setting in a dive bar and the singer is on stage and I am front row or just a few back and the music is washing over me and I get lost in it. The Audio research I felt like I was in a huge stadium and the singer and stage were pushed way far back and I lost the enchantment I wanted. I guess it's all what the goals are of the listener and what they find desirable.
Would love to compare to an MPD-8 with clock inside. ;-)
A pre-amp is the most critical component in any high-end music system. 2nd only to the speakers. For anything less the internal volume control of any DAC is perfectly OK.
EXCEPT when its a Playback Designs MPD-8.. then it beats any Preamp in the way.. If you use an Analog source as well though, you have no choice but to use preamp.. and add some sonic counterpart.
Great dac + quality integrated has been my way, pre amp just adds more complication to the mix.
Have you heard the T+A pre-dac SDV 3100 HV? It has a volume control with 1 XLR and 1 RCA input, allowing you to add two analog sources. Digital conectivity is off the charts. TAS had an extensive review in issue 300.
Lol. T+A. OK stuff, not great
Digital connectivity is off the charts ? Does it have ST Digital Glass fiber twist lock input ? Didn't think so. Playback Designs Does. It's OK stuff tho...
also AUDIOLAB M-DAC. the volume control knob is excellent!!
Lol. It's not the knob.. it's what's inside that makes the difference. Maybe this is what you meant. ;-)
Just bought an integrated amp, the Kora TB200 (which is a hybrid amp, using tubes and solidstate) to power a iso-magnetic planar speaker (Dyptique DP160 SIGNATURE with external crossovers). I might try to borrow a dac with preamp since the Kora integrated amp can bypass the preamp...curious to try out a playback design mpd-8. I have the Aqau Acoustic La Voce S3 dac with the 432 EVO AEO streamer and really happy with it
That was eye opening. It will be a long time, if ever, that I will have the experience of using a DAC that would replace my preamp. It would be super special if I knew someone with the PlayBack Design piece you spoke of, and could stick it into my system just for giggles. But like most people on my level, I’ve reached nirvana with my current rig. Nice discussion OCD!
A very interesting topic and excellent retro preamp!. Although you scratched your noise at the critical moment at @7:41 and I can't unsee it. :O
Lol. Now that's OCD...!
Don't you think it advisable to move your listening chair forward from the back wall? I used to have that setup and everything sounded 2D and flat although it did reinforce the bass quite a bit ... if that's what you're after.
Thanks 🙏
Yes something I have thought about back and forth. On one hand less is more then I understand those who say it is fairy dust.. (tone control/colouration)
But another reason is they have is they "impedance matching" between the preamp and power amplifier? How much does that make a difference or is output from let's start with cheap DACs that most have, are their impedance less a match than output than from a preamp?? (Generally speaking)
Maybe no real concern in practice?
That is good to know.
There is no "impedance matching" you simply must have 10 times the input impedance than you do the output impedance, and Playback has extremely low output impedance. Also, with amplifiers like Jeff Rowland, there are input transformers which render the output impedance of the source moot. It does not matter how high it is, it's irrelevant. So I appreciate you pointing this out however impedance matching means nothing in the systems I sell. In other words I figure it out for my clients beforehand so they don't need to and so that my systems work perfectly to the point I give a money back guarantee on my complete systems. ;-)
@@OCDHIFiGuy Thanks for the explanation. ❤️🎵🎼🎶
@@AmazonasBiotop you bet my friend. That's what I'm here for. To educate and sell ! ;-)
Hi Mikey, I love the sound of the fairy dust my vintage VacuumState FVP5A sprinkles on my Jazz vinyl collection as it has one of the best phono stages built in. I purchased this new over or instead of an Audio Research and VTL preamplifier for the sound.
Advances in DAC technology is moving so fast that there’s a newer and better DAC every month. I suppose that’s good for your business but from this side of the fence it doesn’t make sense to me.
Good manufactures of real high end components should offer upgrades, no matter how old the component is, as has been the case with my VacuumState preamplifier/Line-stage. Thanks for the rant, I’ve always admired your passion for what you do.
DACs are actually NOT changing at all. They are making crap up to make it SEEM like it's new, but its not. DACs are at a standstill. Streamers are changing every week.
@@OCDHIFiGuy My "new" DAC is a Emotiva XDA-1 with a 1955 DAC chip. The differences include Panasonic power caps, some filter caps, etc. and ESPECIALLY, replaced the 50 cent lowest grade 5 regulators with $50 each regulators (mini-circuit boards on each). Also removed the magnetic steel cover (plexiglass with design aeration holes). No Op-amp in audio section, fully discrete audio board (Op-amp in the DC/AC converter as typical except Lampizator which uses a passive design). Really phenomenal for $400 in parts.
I have a classic set up. Record player,CD player, Pre-and Poweramplifier,Speakers.
You need a tape machine and tuner !!
Best preamp is no preamp. Box with passive selector switch and passive step attenuator is my thing! ....sounds awesome!❤
Right on!
I've been rock'n a similar preamp delete for 10 years now! The DAC in that system is a few years older.
Yeah I don't care so much about the looks of my system I care more about the sound I use a emotiva preamp for my volume it cost $220 and my system rocks it sounds like I'm at a concert thanks for the advice Mikey keep on keeping it real man
Dan Laufman is a great guy and he cares about bringing value to the buying public. Emo is some of the best value products out.. ;-)
When will you have the DACs with volume control? Interesting
Have 2 of them now. $24K and $15K. $7.5K and $4.5K on deck.
Great topic, enjoyed this one. Is the preamp First Sound Presence Deluxe? I know the Presence Deluxe MKIII retailed for about $5000 but that was a few years back.
No, Its a Paramount MK2 SE....
Great infomercial dude
Just wait. ;-)
@@OCDHIFiGuy I will. For me the DAC’s job is dealing with my Innuos STATEMENT and the transport. Then there’s the reel to reel and the turntable. Let’s not forget the cassette deck
@@edg5367 well then you'd be the guy that needs a preamp, wouldn't you ?
@@OCDHIFiGuy that’s a safe bet😜🤪
Does the MPD8 have a class A input buffer? Or does it just attenuate the volume passively with a gain cell connected to a R2R resistor ladder volume control?
What the F is a gain cell ?
What the F is a gain cell ?
@@OCDHIFiGuy it is what PS audio uses a gain cell..They have a preamp video active vs passive that explains
@@pennfootball71 OK. Then NO. PS Audio does nothing like Playback does.
@@OCDHIFiGuy pS audio is midfi
back in my day long before DAC You NEEDed the line stage it was the Comand center In todays world to enjoy kick ass sound and all the music in the world all you need is YES The Big $$$$$ DAC LIKE THE 1 ONE You Sold ME 🤩😍
Rock on O Leary !
I'm currently going through my love and hate with linestages. Been told to avoid passives.
Good advice. I'll have some killer options avail soon.
I think Mike is absolutely right here.
The "magic fairy dust" is GAIN which most cheaper DACs are going to struggle with, especially ones that just take the voltage straight from the output of the chip itself in the case of integrated circuit DACs. They can sound ok but you will struggle to drive a demanding amp especially with longer interconnect runs.
I'd be curious to know what Mike's opinion is on digital vs analog volume control though.
Analog Volume control trumps Digital. Digital truncates bits off the datastream. The magic fairy dust is transient response. Most DACs can't output a perfect square wave like Playback Designs.
@@OCDHIFiGuy LEEDH PROCESSING - Lossless volume control for all LUMIN players
@Christy's Canyon I've heard of it, but still not sold on the new tech till I sess it out..
Awesome content but how much does the entry level playback design dac price?
$15K.
What you say is materially correct. DAC architecture is about transferring data and high frequency switching. Done properly digital is as lossless as it gets. It gets messy when you have the analogue signal to transmit. Analogue is fragile and easy to distort and is subject to subtle changes as it passes from stage to stage. Preamps that do least harm to analogue signals are often the best. They are difficult to get right. If you only have one preamp stage being fed from the output of the DAC in the same piece of equipment, you probably will preserve a higher proportion of the analog signal to pass on to the power amplifiers. In analogue systems as you said, the preamp is a pinch point that can make or break the personality of the system. Signal processing in the digital domain has become the norm in professional circles because fidelity is maintained and measurably so.
Would like to see a comparison between the Playback Design DAC/625s2 and the Daemon
Lol. What are you, psychic ?
Mikey, Have you tried any Lumin streamers/DACs with the Leedh volume control? I'm surprised by your Meitner MA3 statement, the latest Stereophile review comparing the MA3 to a dCs Rossini didn't use a preamp relying on the DAC's analog output stage and volume control to direct drive the amp.
Stereophile review ? You mean paid advertising ?
What are your thoughts on the Parasound P6? I'd like to buy one to provide an analog sub crossover for my record player. The dac also handles dsd 256 and has a remote and keeps the towers and subs volume in sync
A decent piece for the money. Not my wheelhouse, however. ;-)
Most important question that was not answered would be by adding a preamp to a digital system, the overall volume on the speakers will decrease / increase or stay the same at max volume settings. + Low level listening volume adjustment would be easier to cope with ?
It depends on the system and the preamp.
What about home cinema integration? I need the home theater bypass on my preamp to use the same power amps for stereo and surround. Any way to make this happen without a preamp?
Surround is not really necessary for movies, and if you cant live without it you need a preamp with a HT Bypass AND a HT Processor...
You are right that technically most line level systems don't really need a preamp as long as it has a volume control. In a digital front end you can get level control digitally or it comes with an output stage with a volume control. If you have a integrated amp, you don't need a preamp of course. Most modern integrated amps don't even have a preamp stage, essentially a power amp with a volume control at the input. I'm not a purist so I prefer to have a tube line preamp to flavor the sound. I build my own. Yes, I like coloration and harmonic distortions to thicken the sound of anemic tinny recordings, especially a lot of pop records. It's really not that hard to build "neutral" sounding preamps to be honest. But neutral is boring. Neutered is more like it. I just like adding something to the sound so obviously not a The Absolute Sound type of guy. Just personal preference, that's all. Happy listening.
I not only need a volume control but I also find I need a balance control. Not yet seen a DAC that has balance control.
Thats interesting, Ive never needed balance... Byt my room is made for listening... so Ive got nothing to offset...
@@OCDHIFiGuy I'm a 98% classical guy. I find there is a slight variation between recordings' R/L balance. I frequently need to "right the ship". I wish it were not so. I'd love to be able to can the preamp.
Another suggestion is to get a DAC (without the preamp built in) and a dedicated pre amp
Go for it. ;-) 😉
Why does the DAC need a good volume control? Can't you just use a good integrated amp and have a volumeless Dac?
Absolutely. Though an integrated amp includes a preamp inside. With a good DAC volume control you can buy a higher quality power amp. In other words there's ony one or two integrated amps I know of that can stand up to seperates of the same level.
@OCDHIFiGuy what are those integrated amps mikey. I want to know what you think the best is
Best value Dac/Streamer with Volume control is a PecanPi from Orchard Audio. Volumio + Tidal Connect Boom!
These new DACs with volume control need a handful of analog inputs....the TEAC ud-701 is a great example with 1 XLR and 1 rca input...perfect.
There's not enough of us using tape to warrant it. Or... buy a Teac....
What about someone who has a good dac without a volume control? You can use a passive volume control instead of a preamp. It might be a good solution for someone who just can't afford to buy all new gear.
IF your DAC has a strong output stage. Otherwise a passive is a drag... you need at least 6 to 12Db of gain for most DACs.
Mikey, what is your opinion of Vinnie Rossis Brama int. amp? 300 B input tubes etc.
Super cool build. Top notch. I feel it's overpriced however.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Thank you brother, knew I could count on you!
Why would the Meitner ma3 need a preamp?
It does not unless your system is soft sounding. Then you need a preamp to give it better detail. It's a soft sounding DAC
Mikey I am using an old Denon PRA 1500 preamp with balanced outputs to a Primaluna Dialogue premium HD AMP. I can’t find one reason to purchase a different more expensive pre. What’s the best DAC under 500 bucks you have every listen to?
I have no idea.. I'm sorry. I don't know any gear under 2K.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Whats the best 2k dac then? Don't say Denafrips lol O.O
@@maxsupport5706 I've got one from Denmark I'm looking at importing. Call me. I'll have it sessed out in 2 weeks. ;-)
Did listen to an integr. Luxman 590 last week, really great AMP for ~10k. Prefered it even against the 19k Mcintosh 12000. Really wonder If i need more or If i hear any difference. luxman also great for phono, great allrounder IMO
Can't go wrong with luxman. Real endgame without going stupid
@@nathanbell6962 I guess I have to watchout for integrated amps too because they really perform very well and you really have to dig deep to justify an entire fleet of equipment in splitting up everything, from costs, energy costs, cable management and cable costs between the gear.
I would not mind spending more as an Luxman 590AXII, I consider it "cheap" in this hifi world.
But I don´t want to spend more just to spend more.
The McI 12000 really was not able to beat the Luxman 590, even I wanted the McI to win because I really liked the design. But design does not tower over price/listening experience so we stayed with the Luxman testing different speakers over hours. FinkTeam Borg where the one I wanted to listen to and they where GREAT.
Next time I will compare them to the new PSaudio speakers. I will hope again that the PSaudio wins because the design is so beautiful which was the reason to go look out for new speakers because mine are so ugly.
Sadly the FinkTeam, as great as they are didn´t blow mine out of the window (IMO) which was on one hand great but on the other a bit frustrating when you want to buy something new and it damn well should be better when you going to spend 30k on speakers.
Really wonder if all that upgrading will make that much of a difference, you know splitting everything up, using special cables...
Damn covid restrictions here in germany, would really like to fly to Mikey and Jay to get a feeling of what is possible and checking for myself if I hear the difference
@@77MovieFan Interesting read, good luck on your hifi journey. Sounds like your doing a full system upgrade, which I personally wouldn't do. One part at a time is much better. I have a luxman lx380 tube integrated and a Denafrips terminator with PMC speakers. But my budget is a lot less than yours. Check out that amp if you can, even at 30watts it's great. PMC seem a good choice for luxman, they use that brand to demo their amps. I'd buy cables and power conditioner later and focus on the main components. Have a great day 🙂
@@nathanbell6962 THX for the feedback
Yes I´m doing a full intergration of an stereo line in my livingroom/homecinema.
Manfred Zoller selfbuild speakers Imagination 3he, Rotel 1095 5ch-amp, Denon 4200w amp (sort of used as a preamp & driving the 2 rears), Oppo for SACD/DVD-Audio, Panasonic 9000 for Bluray/UHD and CD over the analog section of the Pana player. MediaPlayer PC and absolute cheap cables everywhere.
I wanted to have a chain just for stereo, tube amps, turntable ...
Maybe I will put an speaker-switch in the chain so I can have to amps with my 1-set of speakers. Something like the luxman as a base is a no-go for homecinema, it would toast you after some time in that room.
Yes I guess I´m a long way from knowing what I will buy, Denafrips and HoloAudio where the start of my research because they seem to be the BEST when you consider price-performance ratio. Because support, guarantee and the way the workers get handled from these producers I really focus more on "western-made" gear (including japan).
So atm I skip the china gear
The strangest thing to me at the moment is that my chain isn´t that special at all, it was not that expensive, doesn´t generate that much heat, heck I play from a windows pc over hdmi using Kodi with madvr integration, Windows wasapi and Denon in pure audio mode.
I can tell you, after listening for 8hours to the WAY more expensive gear at my dealer, coming home, listening to my chain again I´m a bit sad and frustrated that my mood or will of changing everything is weakening. My system really sound great to me and I don´t understand how that is possible. Sure I don´t have the knowledge to recognize everything in this space but I´m not deaf. I did hear differences at my dealer when we changed the speakers. I liked the finkTeam Borg the best which the dealer did agree, even more expensive speakers where not as great to him too. So I´m not that bad in this stuff but as I said I did listen for days at home, putting together my fave songs, trying to remember how they sounded and then listened for 8hours at my dealer to the same songs and doing this again a day after at home just for checking again.
Always same conclusion, I didn´t miss anything at home of what I had listened there.
Sure my friend say, keep your stuff, you are happy, you said it yourself, the Borg and Luxman ... didn´t blow your system out of the room.
Keep it save the money.
I guess the only people who can understand this of "still wanting to change something" are you guys
Next weeks I will compare the Luxman 590 against 595 and after that testing the Borg against the PSaudio.
If the Borg 2-way system from FinkTeam stays on top I will try speakers in the 60-70k league, maybe something in this range will blow me away
@@77MovieFan yes stay away from chi fi unless you just want to take a chance. Have you looked at a ddc? If your using your PC as front end it's essential. I would put more emphasis on your front end, maybe a chord Dave or something. Whatever you do enjoy the music:) and check out jcat stuff
killer Mikey👍hell yes!!
Rock on !
Thank you Mikey!! Perhaps I'll resubscribe to your channel. I recently switched out my preamp (because I damaged my remote doing dumb shit) - trying relay/resistor attenuators & 2 other preamps only to find that the "magic" in my system comes from an Accuphase clone preamp that just makes music sound alive in a way I can't reproduce any other way. I use single-ended interconnects to hear the magic - the DAC and preamp have true balanced topologies but don't deliver - go figure. The rest of my system is very musical - great vintage speakers (Spendor SP9/1's tri-wired) and 100 pounds of Class A 100 watt amplifier with a totally tricked out R2R DAC (linear power supplies, etc). Fairy dust it is!!
Hey! Another SP9/1 Owner! 🤓 Did you know that only 463 Pairs have been build for the world? So yes, it’s a rare baby! Currently using a Pass Labs INT 60 with it… thinking about selling it and switch to a PowerAmp with my Wadia Dac… which Class A Amp Do you use?
The 9/1 definitely need some more Power in the back …
N-051 amplifier clone A-70, these speakers sound amazing with a modern amp that can deliver current, the bass extension is much better than I realized.
i have owned Pre's by Roland, ARC, Jadis, Auddible Illusions and feel that the ingrates have gotten so good that they will suffice. get a hybrid integrated, best of both worlds
DAC with world class volume control and killer seperate power amp is my game to avoid linestage.
You need to tell Nelson Pass what hes been doing wrong all these years
What is DAC w world volume control???
"World Class" is a term used in music production, and is a VERY specific term to describe the level of the facility, the gear and the engineers. It is to be used lightly. PLAYBACK Designs has a World Class volume control and associated output stage. I am the top USA seller for this brand.
@@OCDHIFiGuy what is the brand, mate??
I have an Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS5- (DAC/Pre + outboard power supply) It's a winner and MSRP was only $2800, a steal by hi-end audio prices
Great !
Are u Italian?
I don’t agree with you, if a high end DAC has volume control, I wander if it is even high end gear? I recently upgraded my line stage to audio reference ref6, and could not believe how it improved the 3D sound stage and top end. At this price point each component is dedicated to its own task. Depending on the line stage and how much you are willing to spend.
You simply have not heard a DAC volume control beat a great linestage. I have.
I like pre amps for there esthetics. Some of them are fine pieces of art. But, I agree with your advice. Pre amps also mean extra cables. Less can be more.
There ya go. Another box to look at.. ;-)
I need some fairy dust for my rig
Holler. I'll set you straight.
Love your vids Mikey.
I upgraded to a new pre-amp/power amp combo recently (michi P5/S5) and I'm the first to admit I'm a dinosaur thinker. The pre isn't just the volume actuator for me, it has a DAC that I love the sound of and a great phono stage. I use the digital ins for my streamer and CD player and I'm very happy. My ATC's sound amazing. I know I could have bought an integrated amp but I moved on from those 20 years ago (to be honest I don't really know why, I somehow convinced myself they weren't as good as a pre).
As long as you're happy, thats all that counts..
Because of impedance matching, if you have both from the same brand, it pays off as it was designed and thoroughly tested only for that particular amplifier tier (same brand but each tier with the corresponding preamp tier). So if the amp is very wide bandwidth e.g. 800kHz or even 3MHz then preamp better be wide bandwidth too (and DAC as well, and music server, and all cables in between, all widest possible bandwidth - let us all remember a notorious truth that 3 things and only 3 things are important in jitter: noise, clock, and bandwidth). That's my strategy in the face of quadrillion of possible combinations. Psychoacoustics tells us that neuron firing/impulse rate on the auditory nerve depends on both the sound intensity and the frequency of the sound e.g. neurons do not fire on every oscillation cycle of frequency f for very faint sounds (but tend to fire on the peaks of/in phase with a cycle). And the Just Noticeable Difference (JND, in dB) in human hearing is ~ 0.5 dB - yet another psycho-acoustic fact.
So what about all those "nuances"? The context of listening impacts the sound perception and we have no control over contexts (which themselves are multi-dimensional; maybe you were pissed one day, or double pissed the next day etc). Hence, any tweaks such as 0.001dB etc are futile and misleading. No causation, just (misinterpreted though real in placebo sense) correlation in the context of that particular day the designer was about to submit his design to production (or reviewer testing remarks just before it goes to publishing). Different brain areas (prefrontal, frontal, temporal lobe, striatal, hippocampal, left and right, and so on) process the same sound sequence all at the same time i.e. in parallel and each of these areas is affected by both narrow and broader contexts of the particular listening session. Now, one can imagine how promulgated he is going to be to discover all sorts of "nuances" if he just plunged $14000 on some 0.001dB level tweaked device and all of his brain areas titillating on this investment.
Smart amplifier manufacturers put input transformers on the input stage to make upstream impedance moot. Or you make your DAC output impedance less than 1 Ohm like Playback Designs does. Smart design needs no impedance "Matching". All the other theory means nothing other than what is the experience one receives. If we really want to get picky Spec is not a way to buy .. listening is.
A lot of time 0.001db has no difference because you are measuring the unit itself at line level of 2v or 4v. Only voltage is measured. Nobody will tell you how much is this 0.001db difference being amplified at 50watt and above. In watt you have to factor in current and power factor which ASR love to ignore. Even in speaker cable 0.001 db difference can be amplified by because you are passing current through it. You are measuring the speaker cable at line level from APx 555.
@@kongwee1978 Amir from ASR will tell you if you ask him nicely.
@@Burevestnik9M730 Many times, no answer.
@@kongwee1978 Did you study Signals and Systems sufficiently? Amir doesn't go over basics
It was called a receiver.
Record player, receiver, equalizer, tape deck. Sometimes there was a seperate amplifier but not very often in complete rack units sold to most people.
I called those Whopper Floppers
@@OCDHIFiGuy Rent-A-Center JVC
Gilad Tiefenbrun presented his new Klimax Streamer tonight at LMC Entertainment in Scottsdale, Arizona. They demo'ed it and I must say
it was very clean sounding. Reason I mention this is Gilad began with a talk about his new product-"Replacing a preamp". Preamps just get no love
these days.
Don't know him or his company. Many guys seem to pop up making servers/streamers. I wish him luck ! Preamp get no love as they are antiquated. Like a classic car. Fun for Sunday drives but no longer necessary as a daily driver. ;-)
@@OCDHIFiGuy Linn is the company. They use K's instead of C's.
First Sound is made in NYC.
I've got one.
Preamps "I don't know what they do, but it's like fairy dust. But buy stuff from me." Hilarious.
Clearly Jeffrey you don't know hi-fi. If you did you'd know exactly what I mean by sprinkle fairy dust on the audio from preamps. What you don't even understand is that I'm giving them props. I'm telling you they make everything sound better. I know of one DAC only that beats every preamp I threw at it. I'll stake my reputation on it. They are $24,000 each. I'm the top seller in the United States. Hilarious.
@@OCDHIFiGuy you literally said "I don't understand how they work." Your business proves PT Barnum right.
From my experience passive preamps and DAC run directly into amps lack dynamics compared to using preamps for me preamps are much more dynamic.
Yes, most of the time. The best DACs have a strong enough output section to eschew preamps.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I have a Pass x-1 preamp
Anything with a volume knob, one, or multiple inputs & stereo outputs it is a preamp. If it has a dac & speaker outputs, it's an integrated amp, or receiver which could have a headphone output. If it only has digital inputs & analog outputs it's a dac preamp which might also have a headphone output. In any case, if it has a volume knob, or push button volume control, it is a preamp.
It is possible might just be a passive preamp. Which is basically just volume control. A true preamp does more than that
Ok, ok, Michael Scott with Italian accent. 😁
Father Guido Sarducci. 😉
What's the problem Mikey? Well, my budget for my hifi is less than $20,000, so I can answer who needs a preamp with MOST PEOPLE. I listen to vinyl and digital, need and like my preamp. I enjoy my music, I listen most evenings for a couple of hours, I love the sound. Not likely to be ditching my pre any time soon, and I don't think (respectfully) that I am stuck in the past, there is a bright future for preamps still I think. Lets see if you will be selling preamps in 5 years from now haha.
Ill sell whatever people want... And you are absolutely correct. If you have both vinyl and digital , you need a preamp... No big deal...
Maybe one of these days I will finally give up my turntable. Until then until then.
Anyone I've ever "started" on digital can't believe they didn't do it sooner.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Oh i love digital too, but there is not parity between what i can listen to digitally and analog yet. in fact there may never be parity.
so i still require a turntable.
love your work bro! have a great day
It is not old school when the pre-amp has ability to connect R2R, cassette (legacy), vinyl and 78s (shellac) as well as lesser equipment like a DAC without the SOTA volume controls (some do not have any volume controls). Streaming only-no need for a high end system. My friend who is a 100% digital server/thumbdrive/computer system uses an Audio Research SP28 (with 6N6 tubes) which enhances his $500,000+ system.
Story time with daMikey! LOL
Remember Father Guido Sarducci ?
Who needs glasses, are you stuck in the past?
I was completely with you until you got to this $7500 line. There is some superb sounding and performing DACs with bit perfect volume attenuation far cheaper than this. Bit perfect volume is relatively simple and cheap to implement.
See
When you say bit perfect in relation to a volume control, what do you exactly mean? If you have an analog volume control, it won't be a factor, but if you have a digital volume control, resolution does change as you alter the volume. I've never heard of anyone getting around that problem.
I really really want to believe you for good reasons. But inserting a Naim 552 or top of the audio research reference preamp to any decent system, I can’t say anything against it. It’s not about sound, it’s about better understanding emotion side of musician’s intention or ‘rightness’ of a piece of music. Hard to explain but it’s real.
Very few DACs can beat a preamp. I sell the ones that can.
In 99% of all cases putting in a preamp brings extra quality of sound. Just say it as I hear it, without a filter between my brain an my mouth 🥳
You are correct. Only the best output section on the DAC works..
My advice is wear a baseball cap backwards, place your sunglasses backwards on your baseball cap visor, and use your hands to shade your eyes from the Sun
Whether I sell caps and sunglasses will dictate my opinion on this.
Hey what’s that red dot on your sweater? He comes off like George Carlin attempting to describe quantum physics… No comprendo.
I'm right here. If you can't comprehend me, don't watch.
this guy is loco
SiMon Vato.....
He is selling dacs!
A genius !!!!
I was skeptical but purchased a Wattson Madison Streamer that has an internal DAC and variable volume control and was amazed at the difference in streaming it directly to the AMP with a great interconnect vs just plugging the streamer into my preamp. I am seriously considering selling my TT ($ 9000 with cartridge and a Chinook line stage used $ 1675 ) and vinyl after comparing the two i.e. Tidal HD streaming via Roon content and well-deserved Vinyl like Neil Youngs Harvest and listening to Tin Pan Alley. I was blown away by the doubling of just the sound stage alone just to give you some perspective.
Iv read on some hifi forums they brought the gear for how it looks iv never understood that i wouldnt care if it was the ugliest piece of gear in the world its all about the sound to me
Same here.
But what DACs feature several rca inputs?
Only a few...thats a DAC/PRE. Otherwise, some offer analog inputs as an option...
Bla Bla Bla. I use a nad c165 bee. Active set. No words. 😜😜😜
We're happy for you !
Maybe but here's the problem. These streamers with DACs are not cheap! You can get an integrated amp or a preamplifier with a built in DAC and streamer and have the versatility of adding components down the road. Take for example McIntosh MS500 streamer which I love but it costs $6000. Can it be used as a volume control or do you need a preamplifier with it? And if you are paying big $ for a McIntosh amplifier and preamplifier then why would you settle for an entry level $500 Bluesound streamer? Am I missing something? That's why Cambridge and NAD simplify matters and provide you with components with built-in state of the art DACs and streamers. I'm sure there are others too.
I get you . However Cambridge and NAD are not state of the art in my world whatsoever. Nobody said excellence was cheap... MCIntosh is a has been company to me. Used to be great, now cool looking but nothing special as far as sound is concerned... Thanks for your feedback.
@@OCDHIFiGuyCambridge and NAD are basically “Chi-Fi”, and both have debatable reliability track records…
@OMDF01 why they are not on my radar... ;-)
Right, but can Playback Designs DAC give you 50V peak-to-peak output as state of the art Topping Pre90 preamp for $599? I bet not. This is the best preamp I tested, absolutely transparent and distortion free, blackest background, keeps qualities of the source intact (very rare, actually no other pre I tried did it even very expensive ones). Spoils nothing just adds dynamics and scale to the sound. From Stereophile test: "The Pre90 preamplifier's measured performance is simply superb. The fact that that performance can be achieved in such a small chassis and for such a low price suggests that Topping has some serious audio engineering talent in-house.-John Atkinson".
Marcin, why don't you ask Alex Peychev how he likes the Topping DACs "total piece of shit" is about how it went. Besides is it made in China ? 🇨🇳 you go ahead with your Chinese "State of the art" and yes, 50V peak to peak is exactly what this output stage has.
The facts are the opposite. Pre90 is excellent and cheap preamp. I understand your frustration though... My point is, that such a preamp like Topping Pre90 gives you the freedom to choose any DAC you like with even weak, low gain output stage. You do not have to fork out $25.000 for a DAC. There are many great DAC's up to $2000 (not only Chinese) and Pre90 will pass their sonic character intact, only adding some muscle and scale. I tried dozens od preamps, top accuphase, top tube audio note, Kondo pure silver M7 "gem", Jeff Rowland, Krell, Pass Labs, Electrocompaniet, Abrahamsen, old Sonic Frontiers models and others. Pre90 is the first preamp that does not introduce anything bad to the sound. Yes, soundwise it is STATE OF THE ART, period. Only it's remote is kind of weak...
@@marcinwasilewski5414 You're so full of shit I can smell your breath over my internet connection. You never owned any of the stuff you listed in your post. "Trying" to someone like you means you went to an audio store. It also means you never put your Topping next to any of the preamps you "tried", and did a fair comparison.
Here's what really happened. You were over at junk science audio review, and fell for a clown trying to build his youtube channel by telling everyone what they want to hear. Isn't it incredible how the best audio components are always the cheap ones? That's exactly what you want to hear. Every time I go over to Amir's channel, I prove that he's not doing science. Try finding one of my posts. You can't. Why? Amir pulls them. The only reason you pull a post is you don't want someone to read it.
@@marcinwasilewski5414 , Check out Amir at audio science review, He tested a bunch of DACs, cheap to expensive and found things that owners of multi thousand dollar DACs will deny till death. The 200 dollar one he tested out performed many multi 1000 ones.
@@bradt.3555 So what? outperformed on his limited technical testing. What about aural testing-listening/hearing to sound and especially music? Amir-check out the 1000s of people repelled by him on Audiogon, CZcams and other sites. He has his devotees. Good luck to them. I am one of those repelled. Cables, fuses, etc. are all the same to him if they measure the same-where did I hear that slogan (hint 1970s Stereo Magazine).
Get a decent preamp!
25k DAC ? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I've sold 21 of them over the last 3 years. Lol. You have no grip of the High End do you ?
OCD 4-LIFE….!!!!
👁✌🏻
Rock on !
Big fan. I'm looking to buy an Esoteric $25k CD/SACD player which is equipped with volume control. My plans were to run it direct to my Pass Labs amp, but the dealer tells me I need a good preamp. Hey man, I'm already spending $25 grand and you're probably making a nice spiff, now you want to squeeze me for more dough. He just lost a sale; another Esoteric dealer is right around the corner.
Daniel, consider the Playback Designs MPD-8 made in USA by the inventor of Sample Rate Conversion and DSD. It's 24K, and has a Volume control that so far beat out even my top 26K linestage. Esoteric leans analytical and sharp sounding. This is why he said it "needs" a preamp. The MPD-8 in my videos beat out an $80K MSB. Just call me if you'd like to know more. I'm the top Playback Designs seller on the globe.
There's a reason. ;-)
I like that my pre-amp is tubed and has a home theater pass through.
This lets me run both my home theater and my audio system in my limited space.
Definitely wouldn’t change it…. Has definitely been worth the money for me. :)
Ummm…okay, if i hit the lottery and build a new house, certainly the theater space and audio space would be separate.
lol@ 24K for a DAC is reasonable-lol.
Are you a Doctor ? (MD) ?
@@OCDHIFiGuy Nope. Great movie btw.
Too late🤥
Doop !
who in the hell can afford 15 $20,000 for a piece of equipment to listen to music on? where the hell do these people work what do they do for a living? where are these jobs at? God damn I listen to music on a $10 speaker I got from Walgreens streaming from my phone. that's all I can afford right now and you know what music sounds fine. if I'm going to spend a bunch of money on a musical experience it's going to be attending a live performance
There you go. I'm guessing you are young.. you have time to develop your hustle still...
In other words for the rest of the 99% peasants buy a preamp 😂
I didn't say it...
Common man if it was “all about the music” then you’d be happy with an iPhone and Spotify. Look what u did with the preamp. Your totally into gear and selling it.
What are you, literal symantics guy ? Of course you need gear to make it sound good. If YOU were really about music it would be a clock radio and not a thousand dollar cel phone plus a monthly fee.. in fact if you were REALLY about the music you'd go watch it live and totally forget playback. In fact if you were REALLY REALLY about the music, you'd be a musician.... so I get your game... you do not have enough time under your belt as an Audiophile to understand what I'm saying, and in what context. It's all good tho.. keep on watching, you'll get it...
@@OCDHIFiGuy I'm making you my spirit animal!
Boulder 3010 XD
it's so funny how you and Jay are so opposite, you guys make good friends and reviewers
Don't know it. Boulder is not a DAC company though. So someone else Designs thier DAC for them.
I’m all analog with vinyl and SACD only so dacs are snake oil to me, but I can’t speak for everyone on the channel.
SACD needs a DAC... sorry to burst your bubble
This is a perfect example of someone who has a little knowledge and thinks he or she knows what they are talking about. Don’t do it !