Tone Capacitor Comparison Survey
Vložit
- čas přidán 12. 12. 2013
- Check here for survey results -
• Tone Capacitor Survey ...
Comparison survey of 50v .022µf ceramic capacitors against a 1950's 400v .022µf paper in oil "bumblebee" capacitor in a passive guitar tone circuit. All caps tested within 2% tolerance range, wired to a stock PRS SE semi hollow body with stock soap bars (8.4kΩ), run through a 6' Elixer cable (tested at an extremely low 75pf) through a Peavey Classic 50 4 x 10.
Played in several styles, several pickup selections, and several amp settings to allow greater opportunity to identify any effects which may only be noticeable under certain conditions. Actual 'odd-one-out' positions remain sealed and unknown to anyone beyond the test/switching assistant until survey is complete and results are analyzed. - Hudba
i couldn't hear a single difference between any of them. And a PAPER CLIP? WHAT??!! totally blew my mind guys thanks!
This proves there is NO difference you can perceive, yet fender are charging $50 for a resistor/cap combo part.
That's nothing. Remember Gibson's Bumblebees?... over 100$ a pair...
@@DSTheEngineer86 and they were fake!
@@frankscassi4960 You're right. found out about it later. do you know if the ones they use in their current LP reissues lineup are actually PIO caps, or still fake ones? BTW I actually favor the fake ones because they're film caps which are superior to PIO which can degrade and change over time... So you get the looks of the original ones with the electrical properties of the modern ones :D
@@DSTheEngineer86 I don't know about the current ones, but I never heard Gibson apologize for the fake ones, so I suppose they're the same
I can only hear the slightly different in the Test 5, B.
same for me
The best shootout I have seen so far, great jobb👍
Most of the difference we are hearing is the slight difference in guitarist's performance between each bar
exactly, they should have used a loop station, hit a small lick, loop'd it and flipped through the switches...
That would certainly seem a better control, but can't be done with something so simple as a loop station. The interaction of the caps and pots is directly with the coil, and to work properly you would have to run your looped signal through an external exciter coil to drive the pickups without actually becoming part of the circuit, which would dramatically alter the way it performs.
I have done a good deal of testing with consistent driven exciter coils, sweeps, tones, noise, etc, and they do rule out player inconsistencies (and still yield the same conclusions). Many believers object to this method however, and refer to their ability to hear in real playing as more sensitive without loosing the "mojo".
This type of test while no without flaws, is meant as a more controlled parallel to the type of comparisons people use to support an effect from capacitor type - playing and listening, where many clearly hear a difference. The main change here is the double blind setting, to demonstrate the degree to which judgement may be affected by peripheral influences.
actually best test IMO would be to do it mythbusters style by making some kind of mechanical device to do the strumming.
+Louie Louie a looper would just replay the tone of the guitar/caps used at time of recording. The signal isn't being passed back through the guitar when playing back a loop. This is obvious when you play a loop and lower the volume or tone on your guitar notice it makes no difference.
@@Jshortca1 You still will need a controlled envoirment even then. Just a change in air pressure alone will make sound stuff differently.
Place the mic or the amp just one milimeter off and the sound will be different. And so on and so forth.
None of those tests are even remotley objective. Not the way they are conducted.
on the first test D was a bit more aggressive a bit thinner and a bit brighter, on the second test i think it was moved to B slot. But overall just the same, being a mixing engineer and a guitarist, concerned about tone so much , the differences that i hear are so subtle that no one would care, for instance if u add a bit of compression on this signal (just a bit) and a bit of reverb just to match a guitar tone production in a song mix all of these sounds will sound the same. If you want to go further and think about what happens in the frequency spectrum when all the band plays(let's say in a record) and the "competition" of the frequencies as the song goes on there are even less characteristics of the guitar tone as a whole. The 3rd step is that 90% of the guitar mixes out there do stretch the guitar on the stereo field which means there are phase cancelations so, more energy of the guitar is taken away again, so what you end up with is a fine guitar tone which doesn't really sound like if you go to the room turn your Amp on and just play a few licks but just compliments a whole mix. What im saying is that: When you end up playing in a band and record your guitar(or even do a gig) you'll have to compromise and when the difference is so subtle the results are more or less the same!
wow glad you took the time for this test. I have recentley purchased a gibson 2013 les paul traditional. Who ever owned it before replaced the pick ups, and screwed up the wiring. I want to replace all the electronics to get it back right. I`m looking for that vintage cremy buttery sound. I was hoping that I could tell the difference in the capacitors that you have used but the change seems very subtle. I did notice that test 2 I heard that switch position one the bumble bee there sounded a litlle brighter.I know there suppose to be the ones they used back in the 50s. So imleaning towards them. Can you help me with ordering from a company that has
goood quality pots 500k that match.
I feel like you want a way to visually note any potential differences. something like a vectorscope would give you lissajous to note subtle variations in sound waves. I know the program fruity loops has a plugin 'wave candy' that gives you a legit vectorscope, which are pretty cool even for just messing around with. you might be able to use it with the free demo. Having the visual element might allow identify and chase down where the differences are, where an eq wouldn't.
I'm wondering if a variable/trimmer capacitor would work and or perform any function different from what the pots do
I could not hear any appreciable difference. I'd like to hear the comparison of ceramic vs Sprague's Orange Drop capacitors. That might barely show a difference. Thanks for a great test...Very valid test.
I only hear a difference in test 5 B position.
i can hear differences due to the player more than the caps. can anyone tell me how an inductor works in a varitone or in a wah?
great test. Thanks for this.
finaly a test done the right way, thank you. But I would like too see a test on coupling capacitors in an amplifier where the capacitors are exposed to dc, I have done several tests on this and could never hear any difference. maybe someone can..
For all the tests B seems a tiny bit more clear and bright sounding.
Nice video. I've done similar videos about this, but with more depth and explanation. What most guitarists don't understand is that it's actually the pot that does most of the work. With the paperclip, it would have been nice if you also turned down the pot to demonstrate that the tone control still rolls off treble for most of its sweep.
I can't believe some can't hear the difference B has to the others in test 5. Maybe you need some better headphones?
I wonder If the results would be different with a treble bleed?
Great Job Man
Thanks so much for this test. I was considering buying some Vitamin Q caps at around $12 a piece. No I see, or hear, there is no appreciable difference to justify the cost.
I tried real hard to find a reason to use rare or exotic Ceramic, Orange Drop, tropical fish and Russian PiO caps etc. Now I buy the 20 pack of Chicklet caps from China for $4 on Ebay. I just can't hear the difference, and what tonal difference I do hear is generally related to the pick, pick attack and string choices.
Awesome work!!
Thanks!
I can hear more of a difference in tone wood than I could in this example of the exchange of capacitors
Did this test to hear for myself. Well, the difference between orange drops and Russian paper in oil, It is there. It is very slight. I wired them both to a push/pull pot on a 1 tone knob strat. The pio was darker and smoother feeling. The orange drop was brighter, more aggresive. Which surprised me. Not worth the extra money if you are strapped. Practice is the best tone enhancer. Then change your speaker. It is the only part that makes any sound. The other stuff generates,manipulates,and amplifies electrical signals.
Guitar players only know sound and feel. I see EE's show the diagram for circuit and understand the DC blocking of caps, But when you turn the knob there is a slight difference in the curve of the frequency cutoff thing happening. It isn't just a shift up or down in treble in the signal. Isn't a guitar signal AC? Then wouldn't it oscillate through the entire circuit, cap and all?
Fun to watch the tests. The switch operator was getting busy DJ style!
they are all a little different and its very subtle. some of which are because of differences in his playing throughout.
Participated, and I wont reveal to your viewers what I thought I heard. Interesting. Thanx for posting.
Did you use a vintage paper clip?
ive come full circle, tried pio, ceramic, etc....and what works for my strats, tele, and lp is the audience by auricap...seriou stuff, i also use it on my tube stereo preamp
Very similar A sounded a bit warmer, but only a bit. All would be OK for me.
It would be nice to know what I like.
One of the problems with these external test everybody does is, when you wire it outside of the guitar your adding 2-4 ft of wire to the signal chain and with such an already low current weak signal it will take of some of the brightness by default (that could be the deciding factor between the difference in tone of these caps). Anyone that has switched between a 10ft guitar cable and a 30ft cable knows this.
Not the case with this layout, which is apparent when you look at the wiring layout of a tone control. The capacitor (and external box and wires) is parallel, across the signal, not in line with it. So if anything, rather than take away brightness, any additional resistance would add to in. In this case it would be the equivalent of turning the tone knob up from 10, to about 10.000001, or when it was turned down, stopping about .0000001% short of all the way down.
Switching guitar cables is entirely different, as yes, the difference in capacitance of cables (which viewed at the circuit level is directly across the two sides) certainly alters the tone. This is entirely different however, from adding less than 0.1 ohms in line with the capacitor.
More importantly, any minuscule effect even if there were one, would be consistent, unchanged through the test, and thus would not have any effect on the comparison between components run under the same circumstances.
The quality, tolerances and values of your pots has much more impact on tone than the particular type of cap. Electrical current doesn't care who made the cap, or it's composition.
Job well done. Yes, 5B is different.
Test 1: A "little more bassTest 2: C "Muddy"Test: 3: D "Dark"Test 4; D "Bright"Test 5; B "Bright"
Agreed 100%. There are differences, mild but there are.
Absolutely D! Wow, so tonal. I would definitely go with that one. As a matter of fact, I would probably use 3 of them in parallel, that way it would be a triple D. :-)
Have you ever installed a Schaller S+T 5 way switch? I'm confused on the pole/lugs and positions that they corroborate with.
I’ve been playing for 50+ years, and I’ve never used any of the tone pots on any of my guitars. All they do, is bleed a small amount of treble through a 250k pot into a .022 mfd cap to ground. Disconnect it entirely and you’ll get a slight increase ( very slight) in output.
No big difference, if you play out alot to an audience, really no big difference..Don't worry about caps, if you want to see a tonal change just use an eq, and/or work with your tone knob and amp settings. Great test and informative
Thanks for saving me a whole lot of time and trouble. The differences were so small, why would anyone bother??
Exactly! I think that's the point he's trying to make... for those of us who spent much time chatting about this stuff on a bar with a couple of beers as if it was a very important matter for our audience's ears...
Passive tone controls suck.
No (human) discernable difference between the 4 except on gain where A and B have a noticeably higher harmonic range. B was my favorite there. Is it worth 10x the cost to fit PIO? Hell no. Do please take in to consideration that youtube compresses and to a degree normalizes audio so a test like this is never really going to reveal the sort of little differences you would absolutely hear if you were there in the room. What it does do is point out that any perceived variance in this kind of test is entirely subjective and the difference is so minor as to be unnoticeable to most.
I used to buy into the hype of PIO caps straight from Stalin"s vault were superior, and all that crap and came to realize it's mostly a placebo effect. After paying the extra bucks, you want to hear a difference . The only difference is in cap values. I now use Orange Drop caps and only because they are built tougher and withstand temperature extremes better then most others. Ceramic caps have way to much variance in a given value to be reliable.
Test 5, B. More presence to me...
1:32 ... I almost peeeeed my pants.., havn't had a good laugh in a while, thanks!
There is no differences anywhere except test 5-B is slightly brighter....
that's my observation too
And that's the test where one of the caps had a different capacitance, right?
+Monaco Monet I thought like you.
Yep, that's what I thought here. Oh well good to know I don't need to worry about caps much anymore haha.
I couldn’t tell with tone @ 10 but at 0, my guesses are test 3: A, test 4: C, and test 5: B. Slightly more perceptible clarity on the lead riffs, no difference on the rhythm.
i think its a double blind. the box is a decoy
i think d was the paperclip.
They all sounded the same to me.....
There is clearly something wrong here? One of the best capacitor comparison tests we have seen on CZcams is below. Can YOU hear the difference?
czcams.com/video/nQcmYvpjx7s/video.html
www.monstertone.co.uk
What is clearly wrong, is nearly every single part of the video you linked to. From lack of any blind controls or adherence to any semblance of reasonable testing standards, to the utterly absurd attribution of beats and pulses (selectively noticed and emphasized) as somehow related to the capacitor, this video in question is simply laughable.
I understand it may have been made with honest intention and belief that it was fair or accurate, but in reality it is simply wrong in more ways than I could easily describe.
If you would like to see a small glimpse in to some of the details that differentiate reliable testing from wishful demonstration, I touch on some of these topics in the follow up video to this test.
czcams.com/video/M7Hu52vmxE0/video.html
It's because he changed the value of one of them in test 5.
Test 1 is over all the warmest and C has a little more top end.
We are listening thru a cheap smart phone speaker, think we are not getting the actual sound . Guessing.
So your saying people can replace their $200 Gibson bumble bees with paper clips. Awesome! Test five was the only one you could honestly hear the difference VIVA the different value. Personally I use polyester film caps and not the ceramic. As ceramic can be microphonic.
If they never turned the tone down, yes, this would be true.
Of course this only applies to a narrow set of conditions where the potentiometer is left above a threshold where the resistance is high enough to render the capacitor ineffective in the relative circuit.
Sounded same to me.
5 B only. But you can achieve this by how you play.
Test #3 "B" sounded really good. Sweet spot.......naw, just kidding, lol...no difference at all in all of the tests. But dude has some great chops. Rock on.
I can hear a difference
test #1 D sounded slightly darker.
test #2 A sounded brighter
tests #3 and #4 I couldn't pick which one was different
test #5 B sounded brighter
very cool video and testing, thanks! listened with UERR IEMs
When you realize your wife is noisy AF....
not enough spacing in cap values. I hear no perceivable difference especially when the guitar gets mixed with other instruments.
Test 1&2 I couldn't tell any difference. Test 3 I liked B better and test 4 I liked A better. But can't put my finger on why. Test 5 B was Brighter
only me didn't hear any difference?
1B, 3D, 5B
Great test! I love the repeated switching and it being blind too. The reason nobody can’t tell any difference, apart from 5b, is because there is none. The guitar signal does not go through these capacitors and there is no DC for them to block, so the physical type of capacitor makes no difference at all, only the value. Guitar amp coupling caps are a very different story where the size, type, and ratings of a cap can make a big difference, because the signal goes though them, and they often have large voltage DC across them, so they can introduce all sorts of subtle distortions. Change the cap on a Les Paul or PRS guitar to 10nF (.01μ) and every player is amazed at how open it sounds, even with the tone on 10, but absolutely any cheap cap will do. Some people love the look of certain caps in their guitar so will pay to have a specific type but none make any difference.
5b
They sound the same.
@A2Guitars please reply....
Here is my Answers Please et me know the correct answers: Thanks
Test 1: C
Test 2: All Sounded Same
Test 3: B
Test 4: A
Test 5: B
Nut'in!
I dont believe the type of capacitor makes any difference at all, only the value of a capacitor makes a difference in tone/sound.
T1: B, T2: D, T3: no diff, T4: A & D, T5: B
Conclusions: yes there are subtle differences but I cannot tell if some of them or all were hand-picking produced or if they were produced by the difference of the electronics.
Take all those paper wax capacitors and sell it as vintage capacitors in a unnecesary elegant wooden box for 40 bucks each one
i just found this,,, so B, A, C, D, B
i know its closed but for what its worth.
I get Test1=A, Test2=D, Test3=D, Test4=B, Test5=B
I cannot believe no one can hear a difference in test 5, between cap B and the rest!
I caught that on test 5 but very little difference in the others.
That's because your an absolute genius. How did you pick that out. Unbelievable. Keep shining those guitars up, don't take them out, and don't play them too much. Keep those cases locked, k. What a pro, I'm stunned at your capabilities.
The different value cap, you mean? Yeah, that’s definitely different, unsurprisingly. Are you sure “no one” besides you can hear it, though?
@@TheStompboxer My dog's ears perked up. He's into Motley Crue though, so take it with a grain of salt.
i don't hear a difference.
Do the math. Cutoff frequency = 1/(2*pi*R*C). Nothing in that equation about capacitor materials.
No difference, the only time ive heard a noticeable difference with caps is in amps and effects but not guitars.
Listening thru my computer is not the best way, not for accuracy.
Agreed, not the best, which is why I've done a vast amount more testing in person than participants in this video. Even if not perfectly ideal however, it is suitable for demonstration, as the differences many believe to be caused by caps are far beyond the threshold of what would be lost in compression here (and there is not shortage of videos purporting to demonstrate differences which people believe they can hear quite clearly).
Sorry, that was not really directed at anyone, I was kind of venting.Between chemo, not being able to afford anything all while trying to make my son the best guitar I can while I can, well I get upset with me, my ears my 15 year old computer.
Actually I really enjoyed your vid and am starting to use them to assist future work on guitar.Thanks
Golden Ear BS. Even if I could...with my 53 yr old, tinnitus-plagued ears...hear a slight difference it would matter a bit in a live situation.
It's as I expected, there's no discernible difference. Don't be fooled into buying expensive Sprague Orange Drops or even Vishay Sprague. Certainly don't base your capacitor selection on a high voltage tolerance labelling. Even a 25V tolerance is way within the range a guitar tone circuit uses. The voltage across a tone circuit is measured in millivolts. That's thousandths of a volt! If you've high voltages across your guitar's electronics, you've more problems than worrying about which capacitor to buy. Those BIG voltage values are totally meaningless when applying caps to a guitar tone circuit. However, they're important when using caps in an amplifier. What you should be looking for, is the overall quality and longevity of the capacitor, not simply a brand name with big meaningless numbers. 99.99% of the time, a good quality ceramic disc cap will do the job. It'll only cost cents for a handful of them, compared to several euros/dollars for one Sprague/Vishay Sprague Orange Drop. It's really no contest.
this is pointless, the only way to hear it is to use open tuning, play chord and let it resonate---how could you hear tone playing notes????
I think that's the point he's trying to make: if there is a true difference you should notice it on normal playing; otherwise what's the point of invest on one over another? If it is not audible for most human ears, what's the point of this debate? I guess that's why he is not using more "objective" methods to measure that.
Material makes NO difference only value as signal never passes thru a cap, they don't conduct. They charge and dis-charge according to their value. The only reason they are made differently is for different operating conditions which don't exsist within a guitar. If you don't measure the caps to make sure the values are the same then the test is invalid. Yes that 25 cent radio shack cap sounds EXACTLY like the 100 dollar bumblebee cap from gibby, (if the values are equal). But it doesn't look as cool.
1st B
2nd D
3rd B
4th B
5th B
D
the paperclip sounds the best
The only time I've heard a difference on strats is when the capacitor is a junk Chinese capacitor, they sound lifeless. Otherwise everything else on a strat seems to all sound the same to me. That said, I have heard a difference with Telecasters. Who knows....
Yeah..There's no difference, so, it all comes down to electronic component values of the caps. I really hope we all stop chasing unicorns and feeding the industry loads of money on placebo. As I see it (and this video helps with that) the values of the capacitors (and potentiometers values) are what we really should be focusing on, - that's it!
And the stability of them is also an important issue for any musician. We all want stable controlled tone, specially If you play live, so why waste time? - please watch this video: czcams.com/video/ppdMAuVOcPA/video.html
I think Will makes a good point there and this video just confirms it.
This is a joke. We dont get to see the different components or connections or anything. Insulting.
The capacitors and switching system used were shown briefly at 1:10. All wires soldered between the spring clips and Oak Brigsby switch are identical length, and the leads from the switch box are soldered to alligator clips, which were connected in place of the original capacitor to CTS 500k pots in the guitar.
Let me tell you at the beginning that I'm not selling and not producing and not buying expensive capacitors. Unfortunately, the test was biased. It was the unspoken idea that there is no difference and there would be no difference. To prove this, it was only necessary to look for an audio chain whose own distortion is greater than the difference between capacitors. Strongly distorted and dynamically poor sound with a loudspeaker and a microphone chain instead of digitalization of the line-out. I doubt that any difference could be revealed with this setup because of the deliberate distortions. (distortion on guitar, loudspeaker, microphone). Why don't you test capacitors with high quality DAC and SACD recording? Many people believe this test has proved something. This test only proves that it is impossible to tell differences in this installation. I found that many AES member not really interested in the best quality sound. They interested in mass-production. So sound quality is often secondary. So if you want to prove something you will take (unconscious steps to prove that. You'll not tell the nonconscious steps because you don't think they are steps to proove your idea. That's the bias. The parts must be tested with clear sound.
I hope you are kidding. Tests 1 and 2 were with tone pot at 10, effectively shorting out the cap (the cap isn't even in the circuit). Granting there is some amount of resistance in the pot even at 10, it is so low as to not affect the tone at all. Tests 3 and 4 were with the tone pot at 1 or full on, so that is the most interesting test. And the point is, the differences are inaudible in a guitar setup through guitar pedals and guitar amps. Who cares about high quality recordings when the guitar's signal chain is not "high quality"?
BTW: Do the math. Cutoff frequency = 1/(2*pi*R*C). Nothing in that equation about capacitor materials.
If you can't hear a difference, your ears suck. Even the ceramic discs has differences between each other. Every position on every test was slightly different.
Have you watched the follow up / review video yet? There is an excerpt from a discussion panel of audio experts, where J.J.Johnston provides some explanations as to why you may hear these differences.
I get that people want to explain why they think others made it up in their heads, but there is definitely a difference in the changes. I've listened on different speakers and the change is there. I even hear the change when not looking at the screen, I can hear when it goes to a different spot. Yes, it's all very subtle and likely won't make any difference in a live situation of mixed in a record, but the changes are still there.
If you haven’t watched it yet, in the survey review video the clip I mentioned begins at 2:00. There is no motive to dismiss anyone to be imagining differences in their head, but simply to verify or falsify hypothesis in a controlled, repeatable way, so as to allow for informed choices which will yield consistent results.
Again though, I am not contesting whether one may perceive a difference between caps or not, but simply suggesting that the perceived differences are not actually a result of anything to do with the caps themselves, but more likely due to well known and understood phenomenon as described by J.J. Johnston at the 2:00 mark in the follow up video.