Ride Faster, Not Harder
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- čas přidán 30. 05. 2024
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Please don't do Better Help ads. They got caught selling their clients' private information to 3rd-party advertisers.
That would explain (at least partially) how they are half the cost to get therapy ($80 vs $150 per session)
yea just do self-therapy xD
@@rene8999 yeah that’s not always an option - I understand it was a joke, but not a good one.
Therapy is a serious thing and it should be respected. Hence why I agree with not supporting Better Help
Problem is, he's probably under contract.
if somethings too good to be true...
For sure would love to see an in-depth break down of the Aerosensor and how user friendly it is or isn't. Would also love to see how it presents the data and what kind of variables you are having to control for in your runs.
+1 please discuss how it deals with elevation changes and wind vector perpendicular to your direction of motion which will effect watts with no change in CdA
$6,000,000 wind tunnel just left the chat
how should he be able to afford that when he has to ride a china bike
These systems are not as accurate as a wind tunnel, rolling resistance and traffic play a huge role on the output of these devices. This may help to understand basic aero savings and good positioning on the road but for accurate information the wind tunnel is still gold standard
@@grn-xx pours belong in jail, not wind tunnels.
@@neemmachine when that elevator breaks down , please don’t be in there with me 😂
@@cracked229 he has a sirvelo... maybe he's a dentist on the side
I bet this type of tool will be found on bike computers in just a few years
That would be awesome
Finally a real-world test of this. I’d love to see a video on the benefits (or no benefits) of aero handlebars.
12 watts.
They look much nicer
I would love to see an ftp test in each position! I know it would be very annoying but super interesting to see, what kind of power you can deliver in what position vs how much power you save with your position!
Great video :D
FTP test is too draining and too long to get consistent data.
If you did 4 proper FTP tests is a week it wouldn’t matter watt (see watt I did there🤪) you did the last one for the week is gonna be terrible because you’re toast.
That’s assuming you did them properly.
If you did 1 per week for 4 weeks how do you account for possible changes in fitness?
Even if you did do them on different days what about sleep, diet ect ect or any of the other million things that impact.
It just wouldn’t be good data and you’d end up guessing the guess you already had before you tried to test.
@@jasonjohnson9072 good point! Maybe a test which is way shorter, less draining (HR controlled?) .. But I don't know if you get any good/usable data from a short tests like that.
If you ride at actual FTP and stay shy of your TTE, it's not going to be that draining. It can actually be a good threshold workout. The standard 20min FTP test is draining because you are riding above the threshold, possibly in VO2Max territory.
You could also choose 3 positions to test and ride a third of your TTE in each position. If you have a 45 min TTE that'd be 15 minutes each, which is a good amount of time for gathering data. Most riders would struggle to even sustain the aero hood position for 15 minutes anyway.
If you practice that super aero position with intent you can improve your ability ie more power in the position and increase the duration dramatically.
Over the last 3 months I’ve been able to take my duration on rides from 4x 5 min for 20 min total to 5x 15 min blocks.
My average speed on these rides has increased significantly just from this. Especially as you said when riding in a headwind.
This has been waaaaay more productive than the watts I have gained in the same time.
I gotta say for anyone who thinks it’s too hard just stick to it. It’s highly trainable and once you work on it you could jump a category without improving your watts.
Yeah I was wondering what he's saying about it not being sustainable, I've recently been holding it for over half an hour at a time practicing for road bike TTs and in a 2 hour chase I got involved in last week I held it for probably 90% of that time (taking quick breaks on the drops to flush the arm muscles). I practice it on my zone 2 rides and the speed increase has been nuts like you say compared to watts. A few months ago I couldn't hold it for more than a couple of minutes. In that time I've also been able to adapt to putting out the same watts in that position vs on the drops or upright on the hoods. (The technical reason for this is because the posterior chain which is the chain of muscle groups running up the back of your body - i.e., calfs, hamstrings, glutes, back muscles - when they stretch as you bend over, they get narrower and the sheathing of the muscles themsleves creates added friction so they don't pull as well through themselves and you lose power, but with extra increased flexibility you gain over time and stretching the muscles out they start to contract with less friction again.)
Like everything in life... just keep working on it. Gonna be harder if you're heavier, but again - just keep working on it.
I'd love to be able to hold the "aero hoods" position for longer - any tips or tricks on how you were able to train yourself to do this?
@@bradrogers2427 Mostly just conscious practice on my z2 rides. Over the 6 months I’ve also lost 8 kilos wich no doubt helped with speed and reduced the effort required to stay in the position.
Don’t push yourself, consistent practice is key. I aim for 2 sessions per week of concioysly riding in the position for my allotted time.
Slowly progress the time. Initially I increased reps from 4x 5 min to 5 then 6 by 5 then I went 3x 10 min and increased reps back to 5 now I’m at 15 min sets.
By the end of your session you should be tired but stop before you are exhausted.
I chose z2 rides so it didn’t impact my watts. It takes mental focus drains your energy initially quite quickly. Just accept wherever you are and know it will improve rapidly if you don’t overdo it.
If you push too long in the position before you are ready you will get sore or strain a muscle. This will stop you from wanting to or being able to practice so be conservative.
My next goal is to do my high intensity efforts in the position now I’ve built a strong base.
I expect my sessions to suffer a little initially but the goal is to be as fast as possible not put out the most watts.
the “Aero Tuck” saved that much over from being in the drops, figured they would have been the same, but I also notice his elbows were strait in the drops, vice bent…. putting his hands in the curve position (covering brakes) might have got him lower, saved even more watts..
Really cool to see the results thanks
Love these videos. Need to do a leg shaving watt savings video.
Awesome more of this please 🙏🏻
Might have to cop one myself 😅
Honestly though would love to see some live testing and breakdown. See how much Jeff remembers from his stats course.
Love this I did two windtunnel test and although exciting my new positions didn’t work in real life. This seems to solve it ! Definitely do a review on this love it 😍
A lot of good information cold from this piece of technology. Definitely would love a video about it
Thanks for putting this into real data. It confirms my intuition and feelings when riding 🙃
Thanks!
Thanks! Jeff I love your real world test collection of videos. Only time I would sit through a YT vid more than 2 min.
Amazing data, details and conclusion. Thank you for one of the best videos about aerodynamics and its power savings.
Effects of deep(er) wheels, fully integrated vs regular (old school) cockpits and helmets would be awesome to learn more about.
Recently, I have learned that a shorter crank can save Watts too. I enjoy cycling and its technical background so much.
Love the technical stuff - sometimes I wish there were better ways to home brew some of the advancements rather than spending loads though. Though I accept that as positional changes make the most difference, the flexibility and strength to hold them is home brewing aero to an extent.
Sweet, love this video
Excellent tool for experimenting
good stuff here, interesting to see the different riding positions expressed in CdA and watts. I'd like to see the difference in choice of clothing and wheelsets as well
Super interesting !!!! Please dive deep into this... I love it ... 🥰
damn jeff shooting S-log3
Happy to see a Coospo cadence/speed sensor on your bike... I've been really happy with their stuff for the price.
I think it's the best speed/cadence sensor on the market right now!
^astroturf?
@@witepa Lol no. I bought one off Amazon since it was going on my gravel bike and I didn't want to spend garmin money on a backup unit... but I actually liked it more. Seeing it on his bike vindicated my purchase in a way
I would have loved a full hour video on exactly this with all the details and data
UK... we have road bike time trials and some of us can stay in the super aero position for long periods, narrow bars included.
Some are raising the bars to help which obviously lifts your head but the position is still narrow but sustainable.
There's a sweet spot for everyone.
Would love to see a video with some data from riding in a bunch, chain gang and some race simulation - just to get a handle on more realistic data rather than trying extrapolate data from solo riding.
As a mega nerd myself, id love to see more about the aero sensor and how it is or isnt useful in a variety of situations
Would be interested in a video about your strength / stretching routine that you use to be able to hold these positions
Sick gadget! Really elevates the content you can put out. See you on the Nero Show soon?! @ChrisMillerCycling
Cant wait to see some helmet and tyre testing.
Give us the fully nerd stuff! Love it!
PLEASE do some actual data on what happens with watts when you ride in the pack. No one (I have seen) shows what's happening 2, 3, 10th in a bunch. Or in a pace line.
Can you also do some wheel depth testing - I'm sure you will. Also mad expensive wheels vs cheap wheels (same depth)
Man . I'd like to try this aero sensor out too :3
This is good to know. I should work on my aero position more but I ride slow enough that it doesn't matter unless their is a headwind. This does mean I will stay tucked for any decent descents, and I know the level of wind I face when I am tucked vs upright is crazy.
I need to go back and check out your wheel videos. I'm curious about the benefit between 23mm and 40-45mm deep section ones (with the same tires.) Bike position improvement/awareness is free speed though ✌️ It would be cool to see some sprint position comparisons in a future video.
CDA graphic & other graphics were looking spiffy. Editing going up a level - nice work.
Testing! Yeah!
Now do one with crazy position with chest on bars and arms tucked in. And do one that tests various helmets.
I’m almost always in the super aero position. Even on recovery rides. Even on my Gravel bike. So that it becomes so natural that I can keep it much longer
We need you to test a red versus a non-red bicycle. Thank you in advance.
Would love to see the data from a race in and out of a draft. I think this Would also be cool to help determine the best position for the rider in a draft in a crosswind. Very tool bit of tech
Might be a little neesh but sholder position and brake lever tilt would be interesting to study.
I meen we already know the difference between the different basic positions that were presented in the video so perhaps this is an opportunity to delve a bit deeper
This was interesting. I'd be interested in how your 'unsustainable' aero position compares to a more sustainable aerobar (think tri or long distance riders) configuration
And yes, I'll cast a vote for going deeper on how the instrumentation works.
Another alternative is the Chung method but you'll need a repeatable ride (preferably a loop), a power meter, and to be able to avoid braking.
Would love to see the detailed breakdown video. Would be awesome if this sensor can provide reliable, accurate real world aero testing of equipment
Love it 👌
goatee on point sir!
Great tool for the weekend warrior who needs that extra 1% performance improvement after already training 5 hours per week 😂
Cool Video. How's your Winspace bike treating you so far? Maybe it's time to do a long term review
Hi Jeff. Here are a few ideas I have for the aero sensor
- [ ] 28vs 30 vs 32 on Deep wheels
- [ ] Same depth aero wheels vs Staggered ( like Enve)
- [ ] 28 and 30 mm tires on wide profile rims like reserve 52/63 vs standard aero wheels
- [ ] Gravel tires (40/45/50/2.2) on deep section wheels
- [ ] Best camera placement
- [ ] Saddle bag vs frame triangle bag
- [ ] Tall bottles vs short bottles
last three would be considered the most interesting ones😂 matches what roadies would worry
Puppy paws position is sustainable for hours if the road conditions allow so that would have been of more interest if you had tested that.
Isn't puppy paws against the rules in racing now?
@@blubaughmr The UCI has no jurisdiction here.
Goated video. The two control runs. The body position data. The drag data. Real conclusions. Actual advice. Dumbass coaches will say "why arent you aero durimg a crit??". I tell them because it doesnt matter, im in the group. This is why coaches should do before they coach.
more more more please (aero testing)
I would be very interested to see this test repeated with different quality jerseys
Would love to learn if the device support full-on sprints and see if you can test the difference between an all-out sprint where you're only focusing on producing as much power as possible versus a more compact sprint focused on technique and aerodynamics!
Nice video... man I would love to work on the UX and UI of one of these CDA devices to help users understand the DATA better.
Can you test your aero tucked position from the hoods vs aero tuck on the drops? Or is it even possible for you to comfortably do an aero tuck on the drops? I've always thought being on the drops would be the most aero.
Great video, great analytical information, and well presented.
I would like to point out one thing however- saddle to handle bar drop.
Your bike is set up with more drop than most casual or semi-serious riders have. Most of these riders have the saddle only slightly higher that the handlebars, like I do.
I suppose each position that you documented would still have the advantages you observed, but I wonder if the proportions of the differences would be be the same with less drop.
But thank you for taking the time to make this video, I appreciated itvery much.
I am 5’4 with zero bar drop and I watch videos like this and wonder about how drops vs aero hoods position would compare for a setup like mine. If you have a powermeter you could run your own test on an out-and-back course or a loop to get a time or watt difference as long as you control the variables.
@@therider4909 yeah, so you get my point! When Jeff rides on the hoods, it's like you or I riding in the drops. When he's in the drops, It's lower than you or I can really get our hands down to.
Can you try an aero drops position like used in track cycling?
I'm interested in your experience with the sensor for sure
Now I wonder... When I ride I'm mostly in position like your drops + aero. I use low grip, but my hands are strongly bent, not like yours - quite straight.
I ride with 30-31km/h for 2.5-3.5h and I don't feel any back/arm/hands pain.
I can ride with this position for longer time periods only with a high cadence (around 100RPM).
When I'm going downhill I usually try to reach 90degree with my hands (I lean in even tighter) to avoid wind.
I agree aero position is uncomfortable :D
You should do this with kit: tshirt, jersey, skinsuit
please Jeff, don't do Better Help ads. I would rather watch a creaky bottom bracket than a Better Help sponsorship
No context? Why do you care so much about
They're a very scummy company @@lookpro.rideslow
Selling user information. I learned something today. Below is an FTC article on it. (If you don't want to trust the link, quick google search will pull it up)
www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2023/03/ftc-says-online-counseling-service-betterhelp-pushed-people-handing-over-health-information-broke
@@lookpro.rideslow because it's a shitty company earning on the backs of people who need help. They have had scandal after scandal, they are not one bit trustworthy.
Then skip the ad. Cry cry cry
There's probably a lot of us who have nowhere near your FTP. When you say aero position probably doesn't matter on a 6% hill, I'm thinking, "It also probably doesn't matter in the last 10 miles of a long day."
My position won't make the difference between a podium finish and an also-ran, but it _could_ make the difference in not getting dropped from a 100-mile group ride.
Can you make a video about the aero drag of different camera setup?
Just goes to show the like of WINSPACE AND ELVES are faster than SPECIALIZED SL8 high end builds.....i like the way you promote the Winspace with Hyper wheels. I have an Elves Falath Pro with e-tap D67s and co-efficient bars 7.4 kilos and it flies!
Can the sensor measure difference in cda (and watts then of course) between a 26mm, 30mm and 34mm tire??
Test for sprinting out of the saddle. How many watts are you giving up in aero to add the power to the cranks?
Velocomp Aeropod has been providing these numbers for years.
Very, very cool cycling glasses (grey frames). Does anyone know the brand please?
This glasses sponsor must be really paying some top-dollar
How does the info from the Aero sensor compare with what you would get in the wind tunnel? Do they correlate well?
I would love to see aero bike vs climbing bike in the draft. All these TT tests but no draft tests.
I'm managing an estimated 0.21 CdA on my recumbent but would love to modify it for even better aero
I'm definitely an outlier then! I'm far right in position but middle of the range fitness.
For sure would love to see an in-depth break down of the Aerosensor
possible to do a comparison how much draft u get from different riders?
Small vs big rider draft. How much their aerodynamict affects yours.
How much do I save by drafting of a less aero rider?
That would be so cool to see. I got behind an ebiker with panier bags on a ride recently and practically had to ride the brakes instead of pedaling
SRAM had 13 speed Red AXS EXPLR all over unbound this weekend. 1x on all the Pro SRAM riders.
Would love to see the difference in watts between a 5’6” cyclist in the drops vs 6’ cyclist in the drops at the same speed (20-25mph)
I ride in that pro position every day, but I'm just late for work on my steel touring bike.
How does it account for incline I wonder? Does it have a gyro or something built in? GPS incline data is iffy at best
I take this as you didn't learn anything new, you just confirmed what you already knew. Maybe playing with it for a bit, you might learn something helpful, but maybe not. Curious what your thoughts on this device's utility may actually be. Some questions: How does it account for wind direction/speed and road surface conditions?
I wonder how many watts overshoes save. test?
So why don't cyclists use aero bars more?
I added some as I was commuting in a windy region - and it really helped. Plus, I could maintain the aerodynamic position for extended periods.
It's a *free* sent unit, it's an advertisement. And please distance yourself from Better help ads they are running a predatory unethical business, you are better than that.
Jeff, do a deep dive in the nerd numbers please. Test others frames, wheels and others aero stuffs.
Can you test aero jerseys in the same way?
A confidence interval means where the average of 95 % of your runs would lie. So if you repeat your test 1000 times 950 of the average values should be within your confidence interval
Yo Jeff!! Aero test me 🙏🙏🙏
But we don't get into those positions when we do max out sprinting 50m in front of the line, do we?
I climb in the Aero position unless it is really steep because aero always matters.
ascended master
With going too much into the details, repeating the same position for two different trails tells you something about reproducibility. If the results of the repeated trials are similar then the result is reproducible. You could use multiple trails to calculate a confidence interval (which in this case would be the range within which you expect the CdA for a given position to fall at a certain level of confidence). Another useful statistical approach would be to use a test such as a t-test to determine whether the CdA for two different positions (say, climbing and Cat 5) are significantly different.
how accurate is mywindsock compared to the aero sensor?
Would be interesting to re-test with the sensor pushed >1ft forward. Suspect drops are faster than the data shows.
What do you do if you're over the weight limit of your bike?
get another bike or loose weight.
who needs a wind tunnel now
I thought it was funny that when you show your side by side riding pics that your helmet height is the same as CdA chart.
That's a great example of WHY the lower you get the more aero you are, visually represented. The two are directly related. It's also why you can reproduce 'wind tunnel' effects for free at home by setting up a mirror in front of your bike and trying to make yourself as small as possible - visually - in a position you can hold. It will be pretty much the most aero position you can then ride in.
Optimal is on the drops then
Please let me borrow this device 😂
it's so cool!!!
Thought it would be cool to get one for myself but 850$ seems a bit too much for me...