Slight correction - cavitation is NOT air being drawn through the pump. However Cavitation is caused by having a low or negative suction head to the pump (npsh). As a result (and as correctly stated in the video) the pump must do more work to draw the fluid to the impeller. When the pump is moving fluid the rotating impeller will have a large negative pressure on the trailing side of the impeller blades made worse by the extra vacuum, in this case required, to lift the fuel to the pump itself. As we know, a vacuum lowers the boiling temperature of a fluid (the opposite effect that, for example, a pressure cooker has). In the low pressure regions of the impeller the fluid will essentially temporarily boil creating a bubble which instantly collapses creating a shock wave. This can cause pitting on the impeller blades, cause extra vibration and will be incredibly noisy. The rest of the video is accurate enough on how to avoid cavitation though. Cheers
my son used one in his modified street R32 gtst fitted a fresh built stage 1 GTR rb26 twin turbo engine,, used a AI duel pump surge tank with single 480 pump and second 480 in the main tank , not to loud , looks trick very tidy , just had heltech installed and first tune on monday on a fresh tank of E85 , ,looking at 485 hp 355kw at the treads at 21psi using stock R34 gtr N1 garrett turbos ,on a safe tune , ,,should be a little rocket ,
Thanks for sharing. I have a 79 model Toyota Corona that does not have any pump in the tank at all. So I will have to fit a pump to supply the surge tank as well as a high pressure pump to supply the engine. Have you ever seen a surge tank that can take the supply pump from the tank as well as the supply pump to the engine internally. Basically I don't want any noisy external pumps. Thank you
Informative, though let's say you use a radium e5lm(brushless pump) surge tank. Which controller is used for this pump? And what if your car doesn't have a return line?
Legit, so factory lift pump feeds to the surge tank, which holds multiple fuel pumps outside of the stock tank? Which basically keeps the pumps inside of a small surge tank that is not located in the factory gastank. Which keeps the pumps cooler, and takes away the loud fuel pump noise?
Question questions really quick! I have a 2014 evolution gsr, actually tune on e85. With the radium fuel system upgrade. my car was driving just fine for 3 mouths. I was driving on the freeway in 5th gare going 70 miles. I lost acceleration to the car. it starter bogging as I put more gas. could this be a bad fuel pump? I checked all my piping clamps, everything on nice and tight, is this common to happen a lot?
Question. I have a 1928 hot rod with a 383 chevy motor. Got a decent aftermarket fuel pump. But when I break hard my ride feels like it's about to turn off and sometimes it does. Is this a fuel and air mixture problem? Vacuum leak? Or not enough fuel is going to the motor?
hey Jay or anyone listening, I can't get a real straight answer out of anyone, can this be mounted under the hood and pass NHRA tech? I need to put it in the original battery tray area on a 3000GT, which is on the passenger side and would be near the firewall. Some rules are stipulating that it needs to be 6" from the firewall and also on the opposite of the transmission on a transverse drivetrain layout, which seems to indicate it would not pass in either case. Its not possible to mount it anywhere on the driverside (the trans is on the passenger side) due to space constraints. The other option I had considered is to put it in the hatch area, but since it is a hatch I would need to build a firewall between it and the drivers compartment. Would this be possibly as easy as using like Taylor aluminum battery box and using bulkhead fittings on the bottom of it to go to the trunk floor and come out underneath?
I recently put a triple pump hanger in an NA-t supra. I noticed that the NA fuel tank did not have baffles around the pickup area of the tank like a TT tank does. Do you think this will cause issues under acceleration if the fuel level gets too low? What would be an easy fix for this?
+RocketRaspeed We recommend not racing the car with less than 1/3 a tank of fuel. If you're really concerned about starving the pumps keep more fuel in the tank. If you're racing the car at a power level that it needs 3 pumps you can likely use the weight for traction. thanks
I gonna be building a 550-650 hp e85 s2000, already have an 450 walbro i was going to drop in but i was leaning towards a surge tank my question is if i do go with a surge tank what pumps/ pump should i be using in tank and in the surge tank?
I have a legit question about surge tanks. I have a single Walbro 450 I was planning on keeping as an in-tank pump and was wondering if it's a smart idea to route the in-tank to a surge tank with dual Walbro pumps (like the main being 450 and 2nd being 255 or even both being 450s). Or do you think that it'll starve during WOT that is IF the 450 in-tank cannot keep up with with a dual pump surge setup.
Are you guys hiring? I would like to be Jay's apprentice. I have automotive experience (work in a dealership) it's getting mundane and I would like to expand my horizon.
+Steve Snatch steve we are not hiring at the moment but you can submit your resume to parts@realstreetperformance.com for us to keep on file for when we are
You mentioned some cars fuel tank dont accomadate certain hangers. I have 2013 wrx hatch. Ive been told that running a double pump in tank setup poses problems. What problems werent specified. Im not convinced that this is true.
I'm not sure what problems the 2013 WRX has specifically, but the problems we saw in the past were with cars that have small bucket style fuel pump modules. Running multiple pumps hard in confined spaces can heat the fuel around the pump and cause fuel pressure inconsistencies. Some cars just dont leave much room to work with too.
hey jay, i have a 2000 ford focus zx3. i wanna do a surge tank set up with the stock tank. i have a radium engineering surge tank and a bosch 044 pump. isn't the bosch an external tank pump? you built my short block a few years ago. really u built it for one of your workers and i bought the short block. crower i beam rods, je fsr pistons and billet main caps. ford racing head with extra work and crower cams mccm 10759....duration int/exh durat @ .050 lift 228/228 rr:1/1 gross lift 393/393 lsa 114degrees rpm 1500 to up redline...........custom intake and garrett gt3582r turbo
+chad tuggle (ej8racecar) not exactly. If you have 2 pumps inside your surge tank, they are both pushing fuel from the surge tank to the engine. They can only move what is already in the surge tank. There would need to be a 3rd fuel pump between the fuel cell and the surge tank responsible for moving fuel from the fuel cell to fill the surge tank. This third fuel pump, responsible for pushing fuel to the surge tank, is usually the factory in-tank pump in a factory fuel tank, but really any pump would work. This 3rd pump doesn't have to build any fuel pressure, so it doesn't have to be a very crazy pump. Most fuel pumps flow more than you need when they don't have to build pressure at the rail.
+chad tuggle (ej8racecar) glad i could help. let me know if you need help getting the parts when you are ready and i'll do my best to take good care of you. Thanks.
I've not personally experienced that. I'm sure it's possible and some cars have to implement a fuel cooler depending on how much fuel they're pumping in a circle. Thanks
I have a lsa engine and when I sometimes boot it changing 2nd to 3rd gear the car feels like the brakes would get slammed on, it only happens below 3/4 of a tank but could this be a surge issue ?
A surge tank could likely help improve your situation if you have a return style fuel rail, as the returned fuel would dump back into the surge tank however it would not fix the problem where your in-tank pump pickup seems to be cavitating. Adding a surge tank may be enough to bandaid the problem, but I would look at the existing fuel pick up first. If its in a Gen2 CTSV those cars have a history of that, especially with some aftermarket fuel pump modules
how can i get rip of the gas fumes !! im getting real sick , actually runing my 240sx s14 V6 on a 2L fuel surge. i was thinking in SS tube lines, but not sure
Hi, nice videos! I have a question though. My 340AEM in tank pump overheats in my evo9 relatively easily in hot weather, especially when tank is less than half full. If install a fuel surge tank with an internal pump fix this? Or would the pump in the OEM tank still get hot and eventually failing to fill the surge tank?
OMFreakingGosh........ why didnt i see this BEFORE i bought and installed an expensive fuel system that dose not deal w/ fuel sloshing (crying). Just installed last week, build has me broke and I have to keep 1/2 tank + at all times until I can add a surge tank some how. I have (2) 460lph fuel pumps IN my stock tank. What is my best option for a surge tank? Can u help me Steve? My build is almost ready for Start Up tune, visit my Facebook profile(Ed DeVoe) and check out my build album. Engine is in this months June, Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords (torch red 02 NOT MY CAR & ANOTHER STORY). Building a car is an expensive education.
Slight correction - cavitation is NOT air being drawn through the pump. However Cavitation is caused by having a low or negative suction head to the pump (npsh). As a result (and as correctly stated in the video) the pump must do more work to draw the fluid to the impeller. When the pump is moving fluid the rotating impeller will have a large negative pressure on the trailing side of the impeller blades made worse by the extra vacuum, in this case required, to lift the fuel to the pump itself. As we know, a vacuum lowers the boiling temperature of a fluid (the opposite effect that, for example, a pressure cooker has). In the low pressure regions of the impeller the fluid will essentially temporarily boil creating a bubble which instantly collapses creating a shock wave. This can cause pitting on the impeller blades, cause extra vibration and will be incredibly noisy. The rest of the video is accurate enough on how to avoid cavitation though.
Cheers
Excellent video, well spoken. Helped a lot clearing the fog for me.
my son used one in his modified street R32 gtst fitted a fresh built stage 1 GTR rb26 twin turbo engine,, used a AI duel pump surge tank with single 480 pump and second 480 in the main tank , not to loud , looks trick very tidy , just had heltech installed and first tune on monday on a fresh tank of E85 , ,looking at 485 hp 355kw at the treads at 21psi using stock R34 gtr N1 garrett turbos ,on a safe tune , ,,should be a little rocket ,
My new fav channel
good video
Thanks for sharing. I have a 79 model Toyota Corona that does not have any pump in the tank at all. So I will have to fit a pump to supply the surge tank as well as a high pressure pump to supply the engine. Have you ever seen a surge tank that can take the supply pump from the tank as well as the supply pump to the engine internally. Basically I don't want any noisy external pumps. Thank you
J is The man
thank you
Informative, though let's say you use a radium e5lm(brushless pump) surge tank.
Which controller is used for this pump?
And what if your car doesn't have a return line?
Legit, so factory lift pump feeds to the surge tank, which holds multiple fuel pumps outside of the stock tank? Which basically keeps the pumps inside of a small surge tank that is not located in the factory gastank. Which keeps the pumps cooler, and takes away the loud fuel pump noise?
+Guillermo Rodriguez YES!
Awesome thanks.
And multiple fuel pumps add more heat to your fuel in your road car too
What surge tank is best for a mechanical fuel pump?
Im building a drift car with a carb ls3. I planned on using a fuel cell with a sump and external pump. Is this not the way to go?
Watch this at 1.25x speed. Thank me later..
2.0 is good too
It's later. Thank you for your input
Question questions really quick! I have a 2014 evolution gsr, actually tune on e85. With the radium fuel system upgrade. my car was driving just fine for 3 mouths. I was driving on the freeway in 5th gare going 70 miles. I lost acceleration to the car. it starter bogging as I put more gas. could this be a bad fuel pump? I checked all my piping clamps, everything on nice and tight, is this common to happen a lot?
surge tank, intake manifold, engine, strut bar, turbo, exhaust
Question. I have a 1928 hot rod with a 383 chevy motor. Got a decent aftermarket fuel pump.
But when I break hard my ride feels like it's about to turn off and sometimes it does. Is this a fuel and air mixture problem? Vacuum leak? Or not enough fuel is going to the motor?
hey Jay or anyone listening, I can't get a real straight answer out of anyone, can this be mounted under the hood and pass NHRA tech? I need to put it in the original battery tray area on a 3000GT, which is on the passenger side and would be near the firewall. Some rules are stipulating that it needs to be 6" from the firewall and also on the opposite of the transmission on a transverse drivetrain layout, which seems to indicate it would not pass in either case. Its not possible to mount it anywhere on the driverside (the trans is on the passenger side) due to space constraints. The other option I had considered is to put it in the hatch area, but since it is a hatch I would need to build a firewall between it and the drivers compartment. Would this be possibly as easy as using like Taylor aluminum battery box and using bulkhead fittings on the bottom of it to go to the trunk floor and come out underneath?
What pump do you suggest in an awd turbo k20 car oem gas tank
I recently put a triple pump hanger in an NA-t supra. I noticed that the NA fuel tank did not have baffles around the pickup area of the tank like a TT tank does. Do you think this will cause issues under acceleration if the fuel level gets too low? What would be an easy fix for this?
+RocketRaspeed We recommend not racing the car with less than 1/3 a tank of fuel. If you're really concerned about starving the pumps keep more fuel in the tank. If you're racing the car at a power level that it needs 3 pumps you can likely use the weight for traction.
thanks
what do you think about mechanical pump? why is it not as popular?
Can it be mounted in the engine bay instead of the trunk?
Is it better to have both pumps run at the same time in the surge tank one have one staged?
I gonna be building a 550-650 hp e85 s2000, already have an 450 walbro i was going to drop in but i was leaning towards a surge tank my question is if i do go with a surge tank what pumps/ pump should i be using in tank and in the surge tank?
Greetings, I've got one question. Do Real Street Performance take interns?
Or just get a quiet external pump? I have 2 pierburg external pumps, i can never hear them
anything wrong with installing surge tank in engine bay to utilize the stock fuel lines from the tank?
I have a legit question about surge tanks. I have a single Walbro 450 I was planning on keeping as an in-tank pump and was wondering if it's a smart idea to route the in-tank to a surge tank with dual Walbro pumps (like the main being 450 and 2nd being 255 or even both being 450s). Or do you think that it'll starve during WOT that is IF the 450 in-tank cannot keep up with with a dual pump surge setup.
so how well would a surge tank work on say a 900hp s2000 that's being built as a drag car would it be a good idea to go that route for it
It would work well on a S2000 as a single intank pump can full the surge tank and you won't have to modify your existing fuel tank or hanger.
Thanks
but do these surge tanks run quite in comparison to the external fuel pump, cause my external fuel pump is killing me noise wise. Any input here?
Is there a rule of thumb for how much in tank pump is required in order to properly feed multiple surge tank pumps? Say 2 450s in the surge.
A 250 would be plenty to fill and keep the surge tank full.
Are you guys hiring? I would like to be Jay's apprentice. I have automotive experience (work in a dealership) it's getting mundane and I would like to expand my horizon.
+Steve Snatch steve we are not hiring at the moment but you can submit your resume to parts@realstreetperformance.com for us to keep on file for when we are
You mentioned some cars fuel tank dont accomadate certain hangers. I have 2013 wrx hatch. Ive been told that running a double pump in tank setup poses problems. What problems werent specified. Im not convinced that this is true.
I'm not sure what problems the 2013 WRX has specifically, but the problems we saw in the past were with cars that have small bucket style fuel pump modules. Running multiple pumps hard in confined spaces can heat the fuel around the pump and cause fuel pressure inconsistencies. Some cars just dont leave much room to work with too.
hey jay, i have a 2000 ford focus zx3. i wanna do a surge tank set up with the stock tank. i have a radium engineering surge tank and a bosch 044 pump. isn't the bosch an external tank pump? you built my short block a few years ago. really u built it for one of your workers and i bought the short block. crower i beam rods, je fsr pistons and billet main caps. ford racing head with extra work and crower cams mccm 10759....duration int/exh durat @ .050 lift 228/228 rr:1/1 gross lift 393/393 lsa 114degrees rpm 1500 to up redline...........custom intake and garrett gt3582r turbo
+RAY D plus a synapse 50 mm wastgate and bov,.apexi ebc
Hey im having a problem with my car
Id be happy if you guys can answer some if my questions
so if you have a fuel cell and a dual pump surge tank. does 1 pump pull fuel from the cell and the other push fuel to the engine?
+chad tuggle (ej8racecar) not exactly. If you have 2 pumps inside your surge tank, they are both pushing fuel from the surge tank to the engine. They can only move what is already in the surge tank. There would need to be a 3rd fuel pump between the fuel cell and the surge tank responsible for moving fuel from the fuel cell to fill the surge tank. This third fuel pump, responsible for pushing fuel to the surge tank, is usually the factory in-tank pump in a factory fuel tank, but really any pump would work. This 3rd pump doesn't have to build any fuel pressure, so it doesn't have to be a very crazy pump. Most fuel pumps flow more than you need when they don't have to build pressure at the rail.
+Real Street Parts hey thanks a lot! definitely clears things up for me. now I'll know what to get when I order the parts
+chad tuggle (ej8racecar) glad i could help. let me know if you need help getting the parts when you are ready and i'll do my best to take good care of you. Thanks.
***** definitely will! I love realstreet!
Ever have any issues of the fuel boiling????
I've not personally experienced that. I'm sure it's possible and some cars have to implement a fuel cooler depending on how much fuel they're pumping in a circle. Thanks
I have a lsa engine and when I sometimes boot it changing 2nd to 3rd gear the car feels like the brakes would get slammed on, it only happens below 3/4 of a tank but could this be a surge issue ?
A surge tank could likely help improve your situation if you have a return style fuel rail, as the returned fuel would dump back into the surge tank however it would not fix the problem where your in-tank pump pickup seems to be cavitating. Adding a surge tank may be enough to bandaid the problem, but I would look at the existing fuel pick up first. If its in a Gen2 CTSV those cars have a history of that, especially with some aftermarket fuel pump modules
By installing surge tank.. Is that decreasing the fuel consumption??
Vasan Vasanth nope
how can i get rip of the gas fumes !!
im getting real sick , actually runing my 240sx s14 V6 on a 2L fuel surge. i was thinking in SS tube lines, but not sure
charcoal canister
For which fuel the surge tank will be used???
Any fuels. What fuel are you using?
Hi, nice videos! I have a question though. My 340AEM in tank pump overheats in my evo9 relatively easily in hot weather, especially when tank is less than half full. If install a fuel surge tank with an internal pump fix this? Or would the pump in the OEM tank still get hot and eventually failing to fill the surge tank?
Are you using the stock fuel pump electrical wiring? or aftermarket wiring?
REALSTREETPERFTV aftermarket wiring with relay and fuse
OMFreakingGosh........ why didnt i see this BEFORE i bought and installed an expensive fuel system that dose not deal w/ fuel sloshing (crying). Just installed last week, build has me broke and I have to keep 1/2 tank + at all times until I can add a surge tank some how.
I have (2) 460lph fuel pumps IN my stock tank. What is my best option for a surge tank? Can u help me Steve? My build is almost ready for Start Up tune, visit my Facebook profile(Ed DeVoe) and check out my build album. Engine is in this months June, Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords (torch red 02 NOT MY CAR & ANOTHER STORY). Building a car is an expensive education.
I have understand nothing
Cavitation isn't from air pockets your thinking or aeration