A note on Aldori Defender's disarm - I played through Kingmaker last month with this class, and discovered that the biggest weakness with AD was that if you attempt to disarm an opponent and fail, you don't get benefit from Combat Expertise of Fighting Defensively. I don't think it was intended, since succeeding at the check means that you do, but it was something to keep in mind. Because of this, I didn't get to use it as much as I would have liked. I'm not sure if it still works this way in WotR or not. There *is* a strong use-case for it, however - a disarmed enemy will attempt to attack you with their bare hands, provoking attacks of opportunity. If you stack this with something like Combat Reflexes, you could potentially attack them multiple times on their turn. So it does have a strong use-case against humanoid enemies. I mainly used disarm in situations where I couldn't get a full attack, such as when an enemy was just out of 5-foot step range.
"Melee scales linearly, magic scales quadratically," says the squishy person wearing a dress. "Oh yeah?" I reply as a Two Handed Fighter to their bisected remains. THF Trickster is beyoooooooond dumb, if you're looking to laugh through a whole playthrough I recommend it. It's so hard to give up Mutagen though, ugh...
I think the best part of Armiger is the disciplines, particularly Fearsomeness. With Cornugon Smash and other feats, there are plenty of automatic intimidate checks (e.g. every time you attack an enemy). Any successful intimidate gets upgraded from making the enemy shakened to making the enemy frightened instead. Even if your skill is low, you get so many opportunities that you're bound to get some successful ones. This basically means enemies are frequently running from your Armiger. It's slightly annoying that you'll often have to chase down enemies, but it makes Regill and other Armigers top tier guards for your back ranks (archers, mages, healers, etc), because these tanks are one of the few that can get enemies off your back by constantly chasing them away.
@@notalefty999 Yeah I conflated the two. Thanks for the correction. I even built Regill that way, just forgot the details. I agree Hellknight isn't worth going over level 3 (for Fearsomeness).
While I was initially thinking that if I wanted to make a Geralt build in Wrath of the Righteous that spending some levels in Alchemist would be the way to go, after watching this it's clear that Mutation Warrior is the more thematically appropriate option. Mutation Warrior + Kineticist seem like the perfect Geralt setup!
@@SlanderedGaming From a pure power gaming perspective definitely, but I don't multiclass for power lol I find multiclassing in CRPGs to be the best way to make a character fit a specific theme, but if you want a character to be as powerful as possible, then it's almost always best just to focus on a single class, since high level class features will invariably beat out any combination of lower level features. I appreciate the concern though 🙂
idk what this would look like on a Legend, but I could lore-wise see him taking the Kineticist stuff 21-40. But I have no idea if it works even with the 20 extra levels. I really have a poor understanding of Kineticist in particular.
@@mtaur4113 Legend caps out at 20 in a single class, so yes, a multiclassed legend kineticist is fine. But honestly, level 19 kineticist is really the minimum number of levels you want to take if you take it at all. The issue with kineticist is that its mechanics are completely unique to that class, and therefore other classes dont really help you be a more effective kineticist, particularly given the opportunity cost. Every 2 levels of kineticist costs you an extra 1d6 or 1d6+1 blast damage, doubled for composite blasts. You only get 2 picks of the most powerful form infusions at levels 17 and 19. You only get metakinetic master at level 19. Your spell pen is tied to your kineticist level specifically, so you are completely screwed as an energy kineticist if you heavily multiclass. 4 levels of fighter for the extra attack per round and weapon specialisation might sound useful for a kinetic blade build, for example, but when you realise that your base damage will be 2d6 lower AND you will lose 50% damage on all your attacks on top of that as you lose the ability to empower your kinetic blade without a burn cost (and without zero burn cost, you cannot perform a full attack action with kinetic blade for any significant amount of time), it quickly becomes apparent that this is a terrible trade off. As for legends, your best bet is to either specialise in kinetic blade (but certainly dont go kinetic knight) and take advantage of the massive BAB and APR, or to take a support class, or do both (my legend 20 kineticist/20 skald was really powerful but in terms of kinetic blade usage and buffing the party). Without legend, though, a fighter kineticist is a non starter. At most, you have 1 spare level and there isnt all that much you can do with a single level. Your best bet it probably something like overwhelming soul 19/scaled fist 1 for a large AC bonus, as with the right build, you can get a very decent AC this way, though lagging 1 level behind a pure kineticist, and having to take the overwhelming soul archetype probably isnt worth it. Personally, for non legend builds, I would just go with the base kineticist class (none of the archetypes are a clear upgrade) and take 20 levels.
"So..... Viv 1 dip is kinda strong, huh?" "Huh? You were saying something? I was just adding this new Fighter subclass with greater mutagen to the game, I wasn't really listening..." "....eh, never mind... It's probably fine?"
I am lurking a while and thanks for those videos, it´s nice to find a content creator who focuses on core as I prefer this difficulty as well. I would rank Aldori Defender Higher, probably an A. The Dueling sword feat you can get let´s you skip shields and the way the game is coded your weapon will still count as beeing held in two hands which means you get full benefit from power attack. With the right background (improved unarmed strikes) you can get crane style feats into the build without dipping into monk in order to get pretty high AC as they all stack with Steel Net/Defensive Parry. You won´t turn of fighting defensivly anymore because you negate all penalties that way and you get a total of +6 AC (+ an additional +4 against melee via crane and +5 via defensive parry). At party buffs to that in your Defender won´t be touched except for optional bosses like playful darknee (if attempted early). Even though Swordlord is the "natural" Prestige Class it pairs surprisingly well with Duelist. The Dueling sowrd feat - which most people playing a Defender will take - it counts as piercing regarding features that require a piercing weapon to work. If you incorperate Use Magic Devise you get a "Witcher" type character (who uses scrolls instead of potions, so maybe not exactly ...). TL;DR: Aldori Defender can Outshine a Tower Shield Specialist regarding AC (and saves), she is faster most of the game(important for Turn-based imho), has high initiative(DS beeing a Finese Weapon and feats you take anyway) and she still does ridicoulous damge for a tank. The Defender is however extremly feat-hungry, especially when paired with Trickster. Sorry for the long rant : )
I agree that Aldori Defender can be fantastic. I made a Blade build that used the Legend mythic path combining AD, Duelist, and Aldori Swordlord. I rated it a little lower because so much of it is based on being Defensive whereas I think there are some other classes that make you a little more vulnerable but give you a lot more firepower.
Two Handed Fighter is A imo. It was the class I played when going for the Equal to Aroden achievement, and it was so much fun. I went Demon ---> Legend, and while I think the Legend route story heckin sucks the stories that emerged through gameplay were absolutely amazing. The damage a Two Handed Fighter can chunk out with Gravesinger Axe is absolutely disgusting, and seeing enemies just heckin explode into ribs because you brought down the thunder with a crit so juicy the game freezes for a moment is beautiful. I'll never forget you, Grimgor.
Gonna back you up on Two Handed Fighter, though I went for a scythe instead of an greataxe. Without even getting into mythic abilities or spell buffs, stacking up Power Attack, Lunge, and Improved Cleaving Finish onto the Wide Sweep scythe makes you look like a lawnmower driving over a tomato field.
On Two Handed Fighter, weapon training isn't lost .. it is enhanced because you get it for ALL two handed weapons .. It's unfortunate to lose the Bravery sequence of feats (can be to all Will with an extra feat) and by losing the armor training you have to stick to medium armor and/or hit from behind the frontline with reach. Best of all is using the Legendary Proportions spell and cleave half the screen 😄
@@Dan-uf2vh Yeeeeeeah but losing out on heavy armour super does not matter imo. Stuff is poop. The protagonist often has resistances against compulsions from their mythic path too, so idk - I rarely felt like I was missing out from bravery. But yes, when you get buffed up to supersize as a Two-handed-fighter the splat power is very satisfying.
Two Handed fighter does sick damage! Wide Sweep is an amazing Scythe or specializing in glaive is also great because it's a reach weapon and let's you avoid damage early game. A 1 level dip into rowdy is good also just for the extra sneak attack dice you get.
I usually take two handed fighteer when Im going legand with my blood rager, it works fantastic and i end up with like 13 attack and an attack bonus of 50 for each attack.
On Two Handed Fighter, weapon training isn't lost .. it is enhanced because you get it for ALL two handed weapons .. It's unfortunate to lose the Bravery sequence of feats (can be to all Will with an extra feat) and by losing the armor training you have to stick to medium armor and/or hit from behind the frontline with reach. Best of all is using the Legendary Proportions spell and cleave half the screen 😄
My Kingdom for a Dragonheir Scion that’s worth playing 😩 wish they touched up the class for the enhanced edition Is there a way to boost their 1d4 energy damage?
Regarding Ardent, the main drawback here is that a fighter with bravery can convert their bravery bonus into a bonus to all will saves. An armiger with ardent cannot. Because of that, it is clearly worse. Similarly, the loss of weapon training for tower shield specialist means no will save bonus, and whilst you get burst barrier, this is almost completely offset by the loss of the fighters reflexes advanced weapon training.
So I'm a new player, technically this weekend. It's being delivered tomorrow. I'm a long time Pathfinder player though. Thanks for the guide. Fighter is one of my favorite classes. Wondering how it will compare to the ttrpg.
Let me guess before watching the video: mutation warrior is the best one? Edit: I was right lol also, losing armor training is not that bad, as you probably gonna have someone with archamage armor and enduring spells in your party (like Nenio or Ember) and that makes heavy armor irrelevant later in the game.
You need to cast it on yourself for Archamge Armor to work, so Nenio and neither Ember themselves can make it work on your frontliners, potions also no longer work. At first I thought you ment for scrolls scribing, but then you wouldn't mention Enduring. And you need mental stat to AC + DEX (Monk, SS, Inst. Warrior) or Oracle/Scaled Fist to make it better than Fighter with Armor Training/Mutagen, just DEX + Archmage will make it equal at MR10.
About Dragonborn Scion: The Dazzling Display feat doesnt count as a pre requisite for shatter defenses or cornugon smash, this is actually a bug, meaning that you still have to take a feat on your own. Also, arcane strike does not scale its bonuses because the class itslef does not cast spells. Meaning you get almost nothing out if it at higher levels. All in all, its a pretty broken class.
Given that a standard fighter is only B, I am seriously considering re-speccing Wenduag. After all, why not make her a Slayer or Archery-Focused Demonslayer? There definitely seem to be better options for a ranged character than standard fighter.
I would say that 2H-fighter is an A since in gives you very high BAB, LOTS of damage and devastating crit. Combine it with enlarge person, cleaving finish and a proper reach weapon - and you can deal massive amounts of AOE damage, making enemy numbers work in your favor
I didn't feel comfortable rating it higher because no matter how much damage you do you'll need to be able to take a hit. That's where the problems with THF begin.
@@SlanderedGaming in my opinion, any fighter is fat_enough. They might be not literally invincible lit monk or tower shield, but they do the job done well. And most dire situations are usually not ones where your main character is down, but when whole party gets Mind Fog over them with some confusion and insanity effects following
@@SlanderedGaming TBF, they do make pretty solid off-tanks. Much better at that than a barbarian in any event and their damage output is similar if not higher. Usually higher.
Dragonheir would work much better if instead of losing feat at 1, 4, bravery and armor+weapon mastery, it lost its weapon subtrainings (tie out strikes flat +1 and swift cost) with 2nd and 6th level extra feats with the armor training. Bravery is already lost/goes away to pointless via bloodline but it weakens WT options. Armor mastery loss conflicts with it being very strength instead of dex focused fighter and weapon mastery in general shouldnt ever be lost without equal offensive option for pure fighter to ever be worth it.
Hey, just a comment, at the beginning when you say "there's an archetype that's clearly better", as a new player, I have no idea what that archetype is that you're referring to. I've watched quite a lot of your videos and you say this a few times. Would help if you clarified what you mean by that? Thank you. i.e. not sure if you mean a superior archetype from the sub-classes or from another class entirely. And it seems weird to me to rank a class lower just because a sub-class of that class is better, wouldn't you rate it against the other standard non-sub-class classes?
Whenever I say that I mean an archetype within the class itself. In this case Mutation Warrior is clearly better than a standard Fighter. You know which one is clearly superior because I either directly state it or it's rated higher than all of the other options.
There's a very misleading thing about the Armiger that makes the class look better than it actually is. The order you choose doesn't provide any bonus or abilities until you get your first level of Hellknight. I don't know why they make you pick an order this early since it serves absolutely no purpose. You don't need to start as an Armiger in order to multiclass into a Hellknight and you get to choose your order anyway when you pick the prestige class.
For me, 2h fighter is definitely an A+, If you want to send a melee out on the frontline to slap someone for 1k+ dmg with a full attack, you send out Mr 2h. He's not gonna be the tankiest, but he'll bring the pain and thats why you build one.... on every play through.
He loses too much tankiness for me to rank him higher. He's not going to be able to kill everybody so after the initial bloodshed he'll need to take a hit and that's when the problems start. LOL
I'd add that the anti-sunder stuff is useful, too. I've been hit by a fair few of those since I started the game a few weeks ago. IDK if they patched it in recently but I see it a LOT now. Plus a lot of that stuff for more damage makes a scythe hit like a bag of bricks on the guaranteed crits. 4x damage on a guaranteed crit with all that stacked on? Pow.
One thing Im sure was said in the comments somewhere but just in case. You can make a Dexterity Mutation Warrior and go Unarmored. Just craft/buy potions of mage armor and take the mythic feat Archmage armor. Probably wont be great after core difficulty but I did it on core and did just fine
Is act 3 not a problem on normal? I found 3-4 where the sections where the game starts taking off the kids gloves and starts checking if you know what you're doing on core at least. I tend to have way more trouble with some of the fights late act 2 to mid act 4 than in act 1.
For me the game gets SIGNIFICANTLY easier once I have a Mythic Path even on Core difficulty. There are fights I dread every time I play in Act 1 & 2. There's nothing I dread act 3 and beyond.
@@SlanderedGaming I have a lot of trouble with the dragon and the cyborg place. plus the uber optional bosses but i guess you don't need to fight those. maybe i just need to git gud :P
Draconic Presence provides you with Dazzling Display which is a prerequisite for Shatter Defenses. Other classes can just take the Dazzling Display feat and then get Shatter Defenses.
@@SlanderedGaming So they fixed it, that's good. they are technically different feats as the version the DHS gets only takes one action (rather than full round) and for a long time it was bugged in that it wouldn't serve as a prerequisite for other feats that required dazzling display. Essentially I tried it once when the game came out and never looked back.
Dragonheir scion should be the first F tier. It's all stuff you can take anyway with even the base class and the few bonuses it gets are easily made up for with buffs literally any caster in the party can do. It's just an impressively bad subclass.
Idk I found the fighter class rather redundant in WotR. Paladins, Crusader Clerics, Slayers and Demonslayer Rangers make for better Fighters vs. Demons imho.
@@SlanderedGaming true that but at least it's only 1 level. I usually go Ranger Demonslayer since her alignment prevents her from being a good Slayer Deliverer.
I Do feel like this guy REALY drop the ball when talking about multible subclasses of the fighter ... Two handed fighter allmost completely wrong infomation given The subclass dosnt lose weapon training its enhanced coz you get it for ALL TWO HANDED WEAPONS not just a single version, thus its a BETTER VERSION not worse, the COMPLETE role reversol of what this guy stated/claim. heck seen the Vital Strike crit build doing over 3k damage or such with this class? seen the pure class doing about 1k+ per crit but multible attacks in a round version or many of the other insane Damage this class can get? Serioiusly if you like damage this is the guy even duel wielding max sneak attack damage characters can have differculty reaching the damage output of the two handed fighter, I Feel like the class is just super strong/op over-all just as an example.
You do lose Weapon Training which can be applied to any weapon and in turn you get one that only applies to two handed weapons. Yes it's better for a specialized class but that doesn't change the facts. It's also true that this class is great for damage but I still say that it's lacking defensively and consequently rate it lower. Thanks for the feedback.
@@SlanderedGaming Litteraly possibly the easyest class to get into unfair differculty with ... even a unproperly made 2Handed fighter a Reach weapon behind the Tank can make the class pretty tanky truth be told if you know how to use formations properly that is ... we just letting the AI hand things or what? coz it can be tanky ... so no its MORE flexible then normal weapoon training not less flexible, The fact you diss and downgrade the 2HF like th at and a number of other things you state about a few of the other subclasses is just cringe, sorry but not sorry this games rep of having terrible/shit guides and what knock seems to be true.
@@SlanderedGaming also just FYI have you seen the super tanky Aoen Tower Shield Spec? If you want a class thats all about the D .... legit can be super Tanky level 1-20 as a Tower Shield Spec or not enough offensive for yeah?
Tower shield specialist is honestly probably the worst archetype. A mutation warrior will have a larger AC bonus from grand mutagen than you get from using a tower shield, much better saves using advanced weapon training to buff both reflex and will saves, and getting fort and reflex save increases from mutagens also, the bonus health and AC from mutagens and can grab 50% fortification. And that's just a defensive comparison. Obviously it completely blows the tower shield specialist out of the water offensively. There is no reason to take this archetype.
I disagree, Dragonheir Scion is definitely worse. Comparing it to Mutation Warrior isn't fair since that's a top tier class compared to all the other classes in the game. Tower Shield allows you to use gear that frankly no other class can use well and it adds additional mechanics that make this playstyle more viable. It's definitely not top tier but it's interesting and solid in it's own way.
@@SlanderedGaming I dont rate the Dragon Heir Scion highly, but unlike the tower shield specialist, it doenst completely gut the class. A tower shield specialist sacrifices effectively +6 to hit and damage, bonuses to saves and initiative and solo teamwork feats (this would actually be great for the shield teamwork feat, back to back and shake it off for example), for evasion and being unflankable, and the ability to benefit from a higher dex bonus to shield. You also get shield bonus to touch AC, but honestly, your touch AC will still suck. It still caps out at +7 dex bonus, which for this game is pretty low. A dex focussed character can achieve +15 dex modifier pretty easily. If you want a high dex tank, there are MUCH better options than armour and shield tanks (and honestly, no heavy armour tank can compete with an unarmoured tank), and if you are using a shield with a high dex build, you will probably want shield bash, which you cannot do with a tower shield. So high dex builds will still prefer heavy shields not tower shields, for uncapped dex bonus and dual wielding. Tower shield specialist bonuses are exclusively tied to tower shields specifically, and they just arent that good. They are mainly associated with mitigating the penalties associated with using what is otherwise a really lousy gear option, and pay a huge price for it. Why not just not bother with the lousy gear type? Maybe you want to play it for the aesthetics, but its hard to justify mechanically. None of the baseline companions lend themselves to this archetype well (seelah certainly isnt going to want to sacrifice mark of justice for this class, and who else is going to take it?). And if you want to make your own tank, unarmoured tanks are far superior.
@Mhill08 you can delay the spell penetration progression a little bit with Elves iirc but yeah.. even there it's an absolute must. Otherwise acts 4 and 5 will be near impossible for a spell casting class.
-the problem with aldori bonus feat loss is its front loaded and you need those feats now -armiger was always too much hassle for me to think about. You can just be a mutation guy -dragon guy, mutation guy also has wings. pass -the mutation man, can be dips can be full class this is the man. This guy fucks -never tried shield guy. seemed boring, the game is fucking destroy them before they can even touch you -2 hand guy, there's a small dick joke somewhere here. Actually good though
Am I the only one here to have been baffled by the statement of blindsence being useless? I mean, I'd understand if it went like useless as in only getting at 20 kind of useless - compelling, hard to argue. Just useless - kinda feels like a place where daringmasters are born... No offense.
With Blindsense any opponent you cannot see still has Total Concealment against you, you keep your usual miss chance, and your Dexterity Bonus to AC is lost against attacks from those creatures. In other words it's completely useless. 😂
Um... Doesn't Dragonheir Scion loses Armor Training instead of Weapon Training? That's a big difference, especially considering the face that bonus feat at lvl 1 is Acrane Strike, also known as "free Power Attack" Idk, I think DS is a solid archetype. Not the best, but still solid
it loses weapon mastery, the 20th capstone which is what he referred to, i think you misheard him. with that said, if you could take any sorcerer bloodline, such as undead, the class would be top tier on par with some of the best martials in the game. unfortunately you cant. its kind of a gimmicky class that tries to be a bloodrager, but falls short in a lot of ways.
@@aylictal oh, right! He did say mastery! My bad! Also, I was wrong. For whatever reason I assumed DS's Arcane Strike would scale, since, well, for whatever reason Paizo gave it to this archetype. It does scale, but in it's own way (+1/+1d4+1 is definitely much less juicy than +5/+5...) That's disappointing, not gonna lie. On the other hand, it's still not that bad. I guess, giving a full BAB class permanent +5/+5 would be a bit too OP Edit: I'm so dumb... Arcane Strike doesn't boost attack, only damage...
@@nolanstrife7350 the 20th capstone is pretty whatever. i can count on one hand the amount of classes i willingly take to 20, and most of them involve legend only mythic. the only one outside of that i can think i'd willingly take to 20 would be skald. every other archtype in the game wants a dip or two to be most optimal. with loremaster/xblooded/vivi/paladin/monk theres always something to dip on nearly every type of character you can build.
A note on Aldori Defender's disarm - I played through Kingmaker last month with this class, and discovered that the biggest weakness with AD was that if you attempt to disarm an opponent and fail, you don't get benefit from Combat Expertise of Fighting Defensively. I don't think it was intended, since succeeding at the check means that you do, but it was something to keep in mind. Because of this, I didn't get to use it as much as I would have liked. I'm not sure if it still works this way in WotR or not.
There *is* a strong use-case for it, however - a disarmed enemy will attempt to attack you with their bare hands, provoking attacks of opportunity. If you stack this with something like Combat Reflexes, you could potentially attack them multiple times on their turn. So it does have a strong use-case against humanoid enemies.
I mainly used disarm in situations where I couldn't get a full attack, such as when an enemy was just out of 5-foot step range.
"Melee scales linearly, magic scales quadratically," says the squishy person wearing a dress. "Oh yeah?" I reply as a Two Handed Fighter to their bisected remains. THF Trickster is beyoooooooond dumb, if you're looking to laugh through a whole playthrough I recommend it. It's so hard to give up Mutagen though, ugh...
😂😂 I'll keep that in mind!
“Wearing a dress”
Stacking 20 million AC
Dress don't matter if they have mirror image and a 50% miss chance, and can kill you with one will save lol.
I think the best part of Armiger is the disciplines, particularly Fearsomeness. With Cornugon Smash and other feats, there are plenty of automatic intimidate checks (e.g. every time you attack an enemy). Any successful intimidate gets upgraded from making the enemy shakened to making the enemy frightened instead. Even if your skill is low, you get so many opportunities that you're bound to get some successful ones.
This basically means enemies are frequently running from your Armiger. It's slightly annoying that you'll often have to chase down enemies, but it makes Regill and other Armigers top tier guards for your back ranks (archers, mages, healers, etc), because these tanks are one of the few that can get enemies off your back by constantly chasing them away.
Pretty sure that is hellknight, not armiger. Overall, hellknight is rather bad.
Like Lefty said you do not get Disciplines until you go into Hellknight. Armiger doesn't get access.
@@notalefty999 Yeah I conflated the two. Thanks for the correction. I even built Regill that way, just forgot the details.
I agree Hellknight isn't worth going over level 3 (for Fearsomeness).
While I was initially thinking that if I wanted to make a Geralt build in Wrath of the Righteous that spending some levels in Alchemist would be the way to go, after watching this it's clear that Mutation Warrior is the more thematically appropriate option.
Mutation Warrior + Kineticist seem like the perfect Geralt setup!
If you are at all interested in powergaming, kineticist is an exceptionally bad class for multiclassing beyond taking a 1 level dip in another class.
I agree with Lefty that pure Mutation Warrior is probably the better way to go.
@@SlanderedGaming From a pure power gaming perspective definitely, but I don't multiclass for power lol
I find multiclassing in CRPGs to be the best way to make a character fit a specific theme, but if you want a character to be as powerful as possible, then it's almost always best just to focus on a single class, since high level class features will invariably beat out any combination of lower level features.
I appreciate the concern though 🙂
idk what this would look like on a Legend, but I could lore-wise see him taking the Kineticist stuff 21-40. But I have no idea if it works even with the 20 extra levels. I really have a poor understanding of Kineticist in particular.
@@mtaur4113 Legend caps out at 20 in a single class, so yes, a multiclassed legend kineticist is fine. But honestly, level 19 kineticist is really the minimum number of levels you want to take if you take it at all.
The issue with kineticist is that its mechanics are completely unique to that class, and therefore other classes dont really help you be a more effective kineticist, particularly given the opportunity cost. Every 2 levels of kineticist costs you an extra 1d6 or 1d6+1 blast damage, doubled for composite blasts. You only get 2 picks of the most powerful form infusions at levels 17 and 19. You only get metakinetic master at level 19. Your spell pen is tied to your kineticist level specifically, so you are completely screwed as an energy kineticist if you heavily multiclass.
4 levels of fighter for the extra attack per round and weapon specialisation might sound useful for a kinetic blade build, for example, but when you realise that your base damage will be 2d6 lower AND you will lose 50% damage on all your attacks on top of that as you lose the ability to empower your kinetic blade without a burn cost (and without zero burn cost, you cannot perform a full attack action with kinetic blade for any significant amount of time), it quickly becomes apparent that this is a terrible trade off.
As for legends, your best bet is to either specialise in kinetic blade (but certainly dont go kinetic knight) and take advantage of the massive BAB and APR, or to take a support class, or do both (my legend 20 kineticist/20 skald was really powerful but in terms of kinetic blade usage and buffing the party).
Without legend, though, a fighter kineticist is a non starter. At most, you have 1 spare level and there isnt all that much you can do with a single level. Your best bet it probably something like overwhelming soul 19/scaled fist 1 for a large AC bonus, as with the right build, you can get a very decent AC this way, though lagging 1 level behind a pure kineticist, and having to take the overwhelming soul archetype probably isnt worth it. Personally, for non legend builds, I would just go with the base kineticist class (none of the archetypes are a clear upgrade) and take 20 levels.
You got me at "stop it." 😂
😂
I freaking love this series. Was just watching the Druid vid last night. Keep up the great work!
Thank you!
"So..... Viv 1 dip is kinda strong, huh?"
"Huh? You were saying something? I was just adding this new Fighter subclass with greater mutagen to the game, I wasn't really listening..."
"....eh, never mind... It's probably fine?"
Mutation warrior is my fav class in the game. :) def S tier. :D
I am lurking a while and thanks for those videos, it´s nice to find a content creator who focuses on core as I prefer this difficulty as well.
I would rank Aldori Defender Higher, probably an A. The Dueling sword feat you can get let´s you skip shields and the way the game is coded your weapon will still count as beeing held in two hands which means you get full benefit from power attack.
With the right background (improved unarmed strikes) you can get crane style feats into the build without dipping into monk in order to get pretty high AC as they all stack with Steel Net/Defensive Parry. You won´t turn of fighting defensivly anymore because you negate all penalties that way and you get a total of +6 AC (+ an additional +4 against melee via crane and +5 via defensive parry). At party buffs to that in your Defender won´t be touched except for optional bosses like playful darknee (if attempted early).
Even though Swordlord is the "natural" Prestige Class it pairs surprisingly well with Duelist. The Dueling sowrd feat - which most people playing a Defender will take - it counts as piercing regarding features that require a piercing weapon to work. If you incorperate Use Magic Devise you get a "Witcher" type character (who uses scrolls instead of potions, so maybe not exactly ...).
TL;DR: Aldori Defender can Outshine a Tower Shield Specialist regarding AC (and saves), she is faster most of the game(important for Turn-based imho), has high initiative(DS beeing a Finese Weapon and feats you take anyway) and she still does ridicoulous damge for a tank. The Defender is however extremly feat-hungry, especially when paired with Trickster. Sorry for the long rant : )
I agree that Aldori Defender can be fantastic. I made a Blade build that used the Legend mythic path combining AD, Duelist, and Aldori Swordlord. I rated it a little lower because so much of it is based on being Defensive whereas I think there are some other classes that make you a little more vulnerable but give you a lot more firepower.
Two Handed Fighter is A imo. It was the class I played when going for the Equal to Aroden achievement, and it was so much fun. I went Demon ---> Legend, and while I think the Legend route story heckin sucks the stories that emerged through gameplay were absolutely amazing. The damage a Two Handed Fighter can chunk out with Gravesinger Axe is absolutely disgusting, and seeing enemies just heckin explode into ribs because you brought down the thunder with a crit so juicy the game freezes for a moment is beautiful. I'll never forget you, Grimgor.
Gonna back you up on Two Handed Fighter, though I went for a scythe instead of an greataxe. Without even getting into mythic abilities or spell buffs, stacking up Power Attack, Lunge, and Improved Cleaving Finish onto the Wide Sweep scythe makes you look like a lawnmower driving over a tomato field.
Hitting a crit with a scythe is so very satisfying as a 2 handed fighter.
On Two Handed Fighter, weapon training isn't lost .. it is enhanced because you get it for ALL two handed weapons .. It's unfortunate to lose the Bravery sequence of feats (can be to all Will with an extra feat) and by losing the armor training you have to stick to medium armor and/or hit from behind the frontline with reach. Best of all is using the Legendary Proportions spell and cleave half the screen 😄
@@Dan-uf2vh Yeeeeeeah but losing out on heavy armour super does not matter imo. Stuff is poop. The protagonist often has resistances against compulsions from their mythic path too, so idk - I rarely felt like I was missing out from bravery. But yes, when you get buffed up to supersize as a Two-handed-fighter the splat power is very satisfying.
Two Handed fighter does sick damage! Wide Sweep is an amazing Scythe or specializing in glaive is also great because it's a reach weapon and let's you avoid damage early game. A 1 level dip into rowdy is good also just for the extra sneak attack dice you get.
I usually take two handed fighteer when Im going legand with my blood rager, it works fantastic and i end up with like 13 attack and an attack bonus of 50 for each attack.
Nice!
Love the Valeros art in the thumbnail
mutation warrior is soo good, specially some points for builds like lich warrior, dragon sorcerer and so on.
On Two Handed Fighter, weapon training isn't lost .. it is enhanced because you get it for ALL two handed weapons .. It's unfortunate to lose the Bravery sequence of feats (can be to all Will with an extra feat) and by losing the armor training you have to stick to medium armor and/or hit from behind the frontline with reach. Best of all is using the Legendary Proportions spell and cleave half the screen 😄
I've never used a Cleave build for the game but it's definitely something I want to do at some point.
These videos are so great, thanks for making them.
Glad you like them!
My Kingdom for a Dragonheir Scion that’s worth playing 😩 wish they touched up the class for the enhanced edition
Is there a way to boost their 1d4 energy damage?
Not really as far as I know. Nothing that will make it respectable at least.
Awesome series! Keep up the good work
Will do thank you!
Absolutely loving these class breakdowns. I hope you will post a list / video with each subclass grade.
I am gong to doing a summary video of the series once it is done.
Aldori defender is my go to for my first run throughs
Regarding Ardent, the main drawback here is that a fighter with bravery can convert their bravery bonus into a bonus to all will saves. An armiger with ardent cannot. Because of that, it is clearly worse.
Similarly, the loss of weapon training for tower shield specialist means no will save bonus, and whilst you get burst barrier, this is almost completely offset by the loss of the fighters reflexes advanced weapon training.
Great call outs thank you!
So I'm a new player, technically this weekend. It's being delivered tomorrow. I'm a long time Pathfinder player though. Thanks for the guide. Fighter is one of my favorite classes. Wondering how it will compare to the ttrpg.
My pleausre!
Will you be doing the prestige classes as well?
Absolutely. :)
Let me guess before watching the video: mutation warrior is the best one?
Edit: I was right lol also, losing armor training is not that bad, as you probably gonna have someone with archamage armor and enduring spells in your party (like Nenio or Ember) and that makes heavy armor irrelevant later in the game.
You need to cast it on yourself for Archamge Armor to work, so Nenio and neither Ember themselves can make it work on your frontliners, potions also no longer work. At first I thought you ment for scrolls scribing, but then you wouldn't mention Enduring.
And you need mental stat to AC + DEX (Monk, SS, Inst. Warrior) or Oracle/Scaled Fist to make it better than Fighter with Armor Training/Mutagen, just DEX + Archmage will make it equal at MR10.
@@MortalReaver i did not knew that. Thank you.
@@MortalReaver I didn't know that drinking a Mage Armor potion no longer counts! Wow.
About Dragonborn Scion: The Dazzling Display feat doesnt count as a pre requisite for shatter defenses or cornugon smash, this is actually a bug, meaning that you still have to take a feat on your own. Also, arcane strike does not scale its bonuses because the class itslef does not cast spells. Meaning you get almost nothing out if it at higher levels.
All in all, its a pretty broken class.
Whoa!! Definitely didn't realize that thank you for pointing it out.
Given that a standard fighter is only B, I am seriously considering re-speccing Wenduag. After all, why not make her a Slayer or Archery-Focused Demonslayer? There definitely seem to be better options for a ranged character than standard fighter.
Yup a lot of people take her down the Demonslayer route.
Mutation Worrior and Slayer seems like good combo to make Witcher build
Absolutely!
It's important to clarify wings only give you bonus to melee attacks touch or not
Good call out thanks I'll make sure to note that from here on out.
Mutation warrior is really great to role-play as Bane
Nice call out! Yeah that would be awesome.
I beat pathfinder WOTR with a lvl 20 Aldori Defender and it was pretty busted. Nothing could touch me
I would say that 2H-fighter is an A since in gives you very high BAB, LOTS of damage and devastating crit. Combine it with enlarge person, cleaving finish and a proper reach weapon - and you can deal massive amounts of AOE damage, making enemy numbers work in your favor
I didn't feel comfortable rating it higher because no matter how much damage you do you'll need to be able to take a hit. That's where the problems with THF begin.
@@SlanderedGaming in my opinion, any fighter is fat_enough. They might be not literally invincible lit monk or tower shield, but they do the job done well. And most dire situations are usually not ones where your main character is down, but when whole party gets Mind Fog over them with some confusion and insanity effects following
@@SlanderedGaming TBF, they do make pretty solid off-tanks. Much better at that than a barbarian in any event and their damage output is similar if not higher. Usually higher.
Dragonheir would work much better if instead of losing feat at 1, 4, bravery and armor+weapon mastery, it lost its weapon subtrainings (tie out strikes flat +1 and swift cost) with 2nd and 6th level extra feats with the armor training.
Bravery is already lost/goes away to pointless via bloodline but it weakens WT options. Armor mastery loss conflicts with it being very strength instead of dex focused fighter and weapon mastery in general shouldnt ever be lost without equal offensive option for pure fighter to ever be worth it.
Hey, just a comment, at the beginning when you say "there's an archetype that's clearly better", as a new player, I have no idea what that archetype is that you're referring to. I've watched quite a lot of your videos and you say this a few times. Would help if you clarified what you mean by that? Thank you.
i.e. not sure if you mean a superior archetype from the sub-classes or from another class entirely. And it seems weird to me to rank a class lower just because a sub-class of that class is better, wouldn't you rate it against the other standard non-sub-class classes?
Whenever I say that I mean an archetype within the class itself. In this case Mutation Warrior is clearly better than a standard Fighter. You know which one is clearly superior because I either directly state it or it's rated higher than all of the other options.
There's a very misleading thing about the Armiger that makes the class look better than it actually is. The order you choose doesn't provide any bonus or abilities until you get your first level of Hellknight. I don't know why they make you pick an order this early since it serves absolutely no purpose. You don't need to start as an Armiger in order to multiclass into a Hellknight and you get to choose your order anyway when you pick the prestige class.
This is true, definitely should've mentioned that, and yeah I think it's super weird that they did it this way.
Wait, does Dragonheir Scion not give you the Grow Claws ability? Like, the one properly martial-focused ability of the bloodline?
Nope. I have read it's missing several features from the tabletop so maybe that was one of the things left out.
For me, 2h fighter is definitely an A+, If you want to send a melee out on the frontline to slap someone for 1k+ dmg with a full attack, you send out Mr 2h. He's not gonna be the tankiest, but he'll bring the pain and thats why you build one.... on every play through.
He loses too much tankiness for me to rank him higher. He's not going to be able to kill everybody so after the initial bloodshed he'll need to take a hit and that's when the problems start. LOL
I'd add that the anti-sunder stuff is useful, too. I've been hit by a fair few of those since I started the game a few weeks ago. IDK if they patched it in recently but I see it a LOT now.
Plus a lot of that stuff for more damage makes a scythe hit like a bag of bricks on the guaranteed crits. 4x damage on a guaranteed crit with all that stacked on? Pow.
One thing Im sure was said in the comments somewhere but just in case. You can make a Dexterity Mutation Warrior and go Unarmored. Just craft/buy potions of mage armor and take the mythic feat Archmage armor. Probably wont be great after core difficulty but I did it on core and did just fine
Is act 3 not a problem on normal? I found 3-4 where the sections where the game starts taking off the kids gloves and starts checking if you know what you're doing on core at least. I tend to have way more trouble with some of the fights late act 2 to mid act 4 than in act 1.
For me the game gets SIGNIFICANTLY easier once I have a Mythic Path even on Core difficulty. There are fights I dread every time I play in Act 1 & 2. There's nothing I dread act 3 and beyond.
@@SlanderedGaming I have a lot of trouble with the dragon and the cyborg place. plus the uber optional bosses but i guess you don't need to fight those. maybe i just need to git gud :P
now here me out.... mutagen fighter with focus on bare fist combat... and call him Asterix
So does the Draconic Presence now count as a prerequisite for Shatter Defenses?
Draconic Presence provides you with Dazzling Display which is a prerequisite for Shatter Defenses. Other classes can just take the Dazzling Display feat and then get Shatter Defenses.
@@SlanderedGaming So they fixed it, that's good. they are technically different feats as the version the DHS gets only takes one action (rather than full round) and for a long time it was bugged in that it wouldn't serve as a prerequisite for other feats that required dazzling display.
Essentially I tried it once when the game came out and never looked back.
Dragonheir scion should be the first F tier. It's all stuff you can take anyway with even the base class and the few bonuses it gets are easily made up for with buffs literally any caster in the party can do. It's just an impressively bad subclass.
Yeah it doesn't have a lot going for it.
Idk I found the fighter class rather redundant in WotR. Paladins, Crusader Clerics, Slayers and Demonslayer Rangers make for better Fighters vs. Demons imho.
It's definitely bland which is why I hate that it's what Wenduag gets. She deserves something with a little more spice.
@@SlanderedGaming true that but at least it's only 1 level. I usually go Ranger Demonslayer since her alignment prevents her from being a good Slayer Deliverer.
What's the rank for mutagenic warrior?
It's in the video. :)
I wonder if and when the first E will come up.
There is no E ranking only F. I know two classes at least will get that ranking but not sure if there will be more.
@@SlanderedGaming Ah, that's what I meant, sorry. I keep forgetting that Americans skip the E xD.
Sorry about being the 666 like though I really enjoy your videos.
LOL thank you!
I Do feel like this guy REALY drop the ball when talking about multible subclasses of the fighter ...
Two handed fighter allmost completely wrong infomation given
The subclass dosnt lose weapon training its enhanced coz you get it for ALL TWO HANDED WEAPONS not just a single version, thus its a BETTER VERSION not worse, the COMPLETE role reversol of what this guy stated/claim.
heck seen the Vital Strike crit build doing over 3k damage or such with this class? seen the pure class doing about 1k+ per crit but multible attacks in a round version or many of the other insane Damage this class can get? Serioiusly if you like damage this is the guy even duel wielding max sneak attack damage characters can have differculty reaching the damage output of the two handed fighter, I Feel like the class is just super strong/op over-all
just as an example.
You do lose Weapon Training which can be applied to any weapon and in turn you get one that only applies to two handed weapons. Yes it's better for a specialized class but that doesn't change the facts. It's also true that this class is great for damage but I still say that it's lacking defensively and consequently rate it lower. Thanks for the feedback.
@@SlanderedGaming
Litteraly possibly the easyest class to get into unfair differculty with ...
even a unproperly made 2Handed fighter a Reach weapon behind the Tank can make the class pretty tanky truth be told if you know how to use formations properly that is ... we just letting the AI hand things or what? coz it can be tanky ...
so no its MORE flexible then normal weapoon training not less flexible, The fact you diss and downgrade the 2HF like th at and a number of other things you state about a few of the other subclasses is just cringe, sorry but not sorry this games rep of having terrible/shit guides and what knock seems to be true.
@@SlanderedGaming also just FYI have you seen the super tanky Aoen Tower Shield Spec? If you want a class thats all about the D .... legit can be super Tanky level 1-20 as a Tower Shield Spec or not enough offensive for yeah?
How are you already at 10k :/. I just blinked
LOL We are making it happen!
Tower shield specialist is honestly probably the worst archetype. A mutation warrior will have a larger AC bonus from grand mutagen than you get from using a tower shield, much better saves using advanced weapon training to buff both reflex and will saves, and getting fort and reflex save increases from mutagens also, the bonus health and AC from mutagens and can grab 50% fortification. And that's just a defensive comparison. Obviously it completely blows the tower shield specialist out of the water offensively. There is no reason to take this archetype.
I disagree, Dragonheir Scion is definitely worse. Comparing it to Mutation Warrior isn't fair since that's a top tier class compared to all the other classes in the game. Tower Shield allows you to use gear that frankly no other class can use well and it adds additional mechanics that make this playstyle more viable. It's definitely not top tier but it's interesting and solid in it's own way.
@@SlanderedGaming I dont rate the Dragon Heir Scion highly, but unlike the tower shield specialist, it doenst completely gut the class.
A tower shield specialist sacrifices effectively +6 to hit and damage, bonuses to saves and initiative and solo teamwork feats (this would actually be great for the shield teamwork feat, back to back and shake it off for example), for evasion and being unflankable, and the ability to benefit from a higher dex bonus to shield. You also get shield bonus to touch AC, but honestly, your touch AC will still suck.
It still caps out at +7 dex bonus, which for this game is pretty low. A dex focussed character can achieve +15 dex modifier pretty easily. If you want a high dex tank, there are MUCH better options than armour and shield tanks (and honestly, no heavy armour tank can compete with an unarmoured tank), and if you are using a shield with a high dex build, you will probably want shield bash, which you cannot do with a tower shield. So high dex builds will still prefer heavy shields not tower shields, for uncapped dex bonus and dual wielding. Tower shield specialist bonuses are exclusively tied to tower shields specifically, and they just arent that good. They are mainly associated with mitigating the penalties associated with using what is otherwise a really lousy gear option, and pay a huge price for it. Why not just not bother with the lousy gear type?
Maybe you want to play it for the aesthetics, but its hard to justify mechanically. None of the baseline companions lend themselves to this archetype well (seelah certainly isnt going to want to sacrifice mark of justice for this class, and who else is going to take it?). And if you want to make your own tank, unarmoured tanks are far superior.
I hate how "necessary" shatter defense is
Mages have the same issue with Spell Penetration. There are just some feats you can't ignore.
@@Mhill08 problem is you have to build around shatter defense with your party.
@Mhill08 you can delay the spell penetration progression a little bit with Elves iirc but yeah.. even there it's an absolute must. Otherwise acts 4 and 5 will be near impossible for a spell casting class.
-the problem with aldori bonus feat loss is its front loaded and you need those feats now
-armiger was always too much hassle for me to think about. You can just be a mutation guy
-dragon guy, mutation guy also has wings. pass
-the mutation man, can be dips can be full class this is the man. This guy fucks
-never tried shield guy. seemed boring, the game is fucking destroy them before they can even touch you
-2 hand guy, there's a small dick joke somewhere here. Actually good though
😂😂
Am I the only one here to have been baffled by the statement of blindsence being useless? I mean, I'd understand if it went like useless as in only getting at 20 kind of useless - compelling, hard to argue. Just useless - kinda feels like a place where daringmasters are born... No offense.
With Blindsense any opponent you cannot see still has Total Concealment against you, you keep your usual miss chance, and your Dexterity Bonus to AC is lost against attacks from those creatures. In other words it's completely useless. 😂
@@SlanderedGaming hmm, yeah, after due research I concede that you are right on that one, my bad.
@Аеleth All good dude. :)
Um... Doesn't Dragonheir Scion loses Armor Training instead of Weapon Training? That's a big difference, especially considering the face that bonus feat at lvl 1 is Acrane Strike, also known as "free Power Attack"
Idk, I think DS is a solid archetype. Not the best, but still solid
Arcane strike is not free power attack. Its +1/+1 that for them never scales with a swift tax.
it loses weapon mastery, the 20th capstone which is what he referred to, i think you misheard him. with that said, if you could take any sorcerer bloodline, such as undead, the class would be top tier on par with some of the best martials in the game. unfortunately you cant. its kind of a gimmicky class that tries to be a bloodrager, but falls short in a lot of ways.
@@aylictal oh, right! He did say mastery! My bad! Also, I was wrong. For whatever reason I assumed DS's Arcane Strike would scale, since, well, for whatever reason Paizo gave it to this archetype. It does scale, but in it's own way (+1/+1d4+1 is definitely much less juicy than +5/+5...)
That's disappointing, not gonna lie. On the other hand, it's still not that bad. I guess, giving a full BAB class permanent +5/+5 would be a bit too OP
Edit: I'm so dumb... Arcane Strike doesn't boost attack, only damage...
@@nolanstrife7350 the 20th capstone is pretty whatever. i can count on one hand the amount of classes i willingly take to 20, and most of them involve legend only mythic. the only one outside of that i can think i'd willingly take to 20 would be skald. every other archtype in the game wants a dip or two to be most optimal. with loremaster/xblooded/vivi/paladin/monk theres always something to dip on nearly every type of character you can build.
like the content but his voice sounds so damn wet
I've received that criticism before but honestly I have no idea what to do about it. 😂😂
@@SlanderedGaming still digging the guides though