13 years of building race motors and some classes have stock rod rules, there was never a question about resizing the big end when changing the bolts. The more power you plan to make the more prefect things need to be.
I am from a past position at Delco Advanced Development and Reliability Engineering , as the US ADRE facilities engineering coordinator. I am very impressed with your attention to calibration and following a predetermined process to create a controlled sequence that is to be followed in the testing of the product and use of in a different perspective than we usually see online
I wonder what the temperature was when he was doing this. I always strongly caution people about using machine shops that are 90 to 95° F inside during the summer and 50° F inside with everyone huddled around a kerosene heater during the Winter, I've demonstrated to people how much dimensions change over just a 15° F from what's considered the temperature that machine work is supposed to be done at which is 70° F, it makes a bigger difference than people think, especially if you're sizing aluminum pistons into an iron block or iron motorcycle cylinders, when you get down to a minimum clearance like .00075 inch that I sometimes deal with it makes a difference, a BIG difference.
So - don't use ARP rod bolts if you don't want an egg shaped rod hole. You probably don't need ARP bolts unless you are racing anyway. This probably applies to any over torqued ARP or aftermarket bolts anywhere on the engine.
and if your going racing stock rods are probably not going to cut the mustard in any event, especially if you want to be competitive (unless you know the metallurgy of the rod and KNOW its strong enough)
@@user-gl5kj1fm5x "𝘪𝘧 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘨𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘳𝘢𝘤𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘴𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘬 𝘳𝘰𝘥𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘣𝘢𝘣𝘭𝘺 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘨𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘰 𝘤𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘮𝘶𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘳𝘥 𝘪𝘯 𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘵" The class the car was built for and that he's racing in requires stock rods and other internal parts but "stock eliminator" engines are far from stock output. They're modded to make way more power than the manufacturer ever designed them to, usually aided by spinning 7500+ rpm the whole way down the track. To put that in perspective, the 5.0HO had a factory limiter of 6250 RPM and Ford didn't expect people to even regularly hit that. Watch his clutch tuning video and you'll see he has so much gearing in the car he actually needs to use 5th gear to make it to the end of the track.
I'm 71 years old and rebuilding a 56 Chevy with a 1969 Corvette 427 that has sat for over 25 years from the last time I built it. Had a new cam part part failure, long story and nothing to do with the build process. Life got in the way, raised 2 fine sons, and am now starting over. Your attention to detail makes me question my sanity! ;) Thinking maybe I should just pay a machine shop to build the long block for me! I just really want to drive it again before I die! :)
Many many people just love the building process and not the using part. I've known so many amateur boat builders that spent a decade or so building a boat only to sell it within six months of launching, only to realise that they loved building the thing more than they did using the thing.
It's easy to just pay a machine shop to assemble an engine. The problem is finding a machine shop that'll actually care half as much as you do. And when you do it's gonna cost time is money and the majority of machine shops would rather pump out work for local repair shops who aren't so picky. When you do all the measurements yourself you are 100% sure it's correct.... assuming you spent the time doing it correctly. It's not difficult but there's some cost if you didn't already have the tools.
@@garysgarage.2841 Fortunately, there is a machine shop close by that has a good name, and he races too! He's my age, but he has the experience and the tools. I think I will be money ahead, at this point in my life, to pay a professional to build the short block, and I can finish it. :)
Great video Ed, I've gone through this same exercise a few times while building engines. Some rods don't move around nearly as much as others, my general rule of thumb is that you should always check/measure if your replacing rod bolts.
I love this! Definitely worth subscribing for....wayyyy back in high school I built a Pontiac 400 for my 2nd gen Firebird, I built it poorly of course but the advice I got from my shop teacher didn't help. I wanted to put better rod bolts in and he was all like "go for it". 3 months into running that engine the bearings were finished, this wasn't the only factor of course but it obviously helped. I was told after that about resizing rods, I was a dumb high school kid who got all his knowledge from magazines so how would I have known? Watching this brought that all back, and I love the full hardcore geeky confirmation aspect. Just awesome!
Not only bearing clearance but bearing crush! I applaud your diligence for precision but a few pointers. If you measure the rod in 3 places you can determine if the cap is misaligned now or merely distorted. Number 2 measurement alone won't give you that imfo. Couple other points; ALL measuring equipment should be close to 70 degrees and the subject your measuring also. Very difficult to use the mic to set the bore gauge in tenth of thousands. The finger pressure alone can throw the bore gauge off even tho your rocking it. A setting fixture is preferred. And yes any change in torque will 99% of the time change a bores dimensions. This goes for guys putting studs in main caps, one can get by without line honing if you use the exact same torque on stud as main cap bolt had! Good Video!!!
I suggest measuring in both diagonal directions to understand the variation in cap shift left to right. Obviously the ARP bolts/lube/torque do influence clearances shown in dimension #1. Appreciate the testing!
Dude thanks for all the time taken for the video! Much appreciated! Hopefully you've saved someone a major headache! I've never seen rods come back drone the shop without having machining marks on them. And I've seen serious damage done from this exact issue causing rod seizure on journal. If you aren't going to do it right then just don't do it at all
Great video to show how to measure a rod first, Secondly thank you for putting this myth to sleep about if the big end needs to be resized with ARP rod bolts. Keep doing these types of videos so I can geek out with engine-building content!!!!
Yeah dopey office workers with their breakfast cereal pack commerce degrees always mistake data for information. They then apply a good dose of confirmation bias and voila get the answer they want. When it inevitably turns to crap - time then to initiate a blame loop with the lowest paid workers the scapegoats for their incompetence. The world is full of great hoards of these scabs. W. Edwards Deming would roll in his grave if he could see how his comment was perverted. I know how it all works ... BTW I prefer, The trouble with life is all the stupid people have an answer for everything and the intelligent people can't make their minds up. At least that way it's keeping it real. Data is not information and is the realm of the stupid.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory Where the hell did you get that spec book at 3:42? I've been looking for one of those for a couple of years, it has specs for the SVO right? I would guess so if it contains the XR4TI specs. Any info would be appreciated, thanks.
It's because of the increased torque on the bolts that it changed. If you changed the bolt but still torqued to factory spec you see very little change. It still is a yes and no for a resize. If you plan on changing the amount of torque on the bolts then you need a resize. Main bearings do the exact same thing when you change the torque of the bolt. It can also change when a bolt is slightly longer or shorter or a stud is used on mains.
BTW, awesome video. An engineer that actually knows how to turn a wrench - there are so few of us. I work with some engineers who don't know what a ratchet wrench is. Subscribing!
@@tempest411 Yes possibly....in the English speaking world this confusion is common in people who use the term “engineer” when they are do not have the prerequisite training from a tertiary education provider. It is exacerbated by the fact that the media do not understand the difference and most people will never need to deal with an engineer in their daily lives so public exposure to engineers is limited. It is almost exclusively an issue in English speaking countries.
Great video! I didn't know there were people out there swapping rod bolts that were NOT resizing their rods. I can imagine those doing that talking trash about the bolts they put in after they spun a bearing.
Hi Ed - Thanks for this excellent video. I'm a mechanical engineer too, and appreciate the attention to detail. I'm about to start the reassembly of a 2110 cc air-cooled VW engine (82mm stroker crank w/90.5 pistons) for my 1970 Crew Cab pick-up. I had this engine together about 10 yrs ago, but paid someone to line-bore and build the shortblock for me because I was doing 60-70hr weeks at work. I built up the rest like a Swiss watch. The engine seized up (on the main thrust bearing) after about 3-4 hrs runtime. A real heartbreaker. By good luck the beautiful new crank was okay after a competent machinist dressed the journal, re-did the line-bore, and set me up with a new properly sized bearing set. Everything's been sitting in enclosed tubs on the shelf ever since, and now I finally have some time to put it back together. The problem is that somewhere along the line I read that ARP bolts are designed to yield ever so slightly when torqued to ARP's recommended level. That being the case, they are not to be re-used. Or so that source said. It seems like a conundrum, because if that's true then when you torque them to measure & re-size the rods, you'd instantly lose everything when you disassemble to install the rods on the crank. You'd be chasing your tail, so to speak. I'd like to get your take (and maybe that of some of the erudite gearhead commentors below) on this matter. Thanks - and you have a new subscriber.
If the bolts don't specifically say they're torque to yield, they're not. Contact ARP to be sure, but sounds like typical internet misinformation. Also, if you're chewing up thrust bearings, check the trans and clutch setup to make sure they're not creating unnecessary thrust.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory Thanks for the reply. I'll call them and ask - easy enough. BTW, I think I know what happened with my thrust bearing. It was seized at its 3 O'clock and 9 O'clock positions, and totally virgin/untouched at 6 O'clock & 12 O'clock. This led me to suspect that the two halves of the VW crankcase weren't fully torqued together when the line bore was done. So, later when it was reassembled the perfectly round bore went football-shaped under full torque, and squeezed the crank at 3 & 9. One other question - any suggestion for where to buy myself a good but reasonably-priced stretch gauge? I see some at Summit that look pretty good. Thanks
It's not in the slightest bit obscure. In fact, it's common knowledge, normal practise, and perfectly logical. It's the exact same reason that you must measure bearing clearances with the bolts torqued to spec.
Swapped out the rod bolts on my Chevy LSJ as the engine is in an Ariel Atom. 6 years of to the floor road race track abuse and a rod bolt finally let go. I should have gone with better rods and bolts. Nice video.
Based on some of the comments (thanks) I realized I should have included the fact that when I reinstalled the stock rod bolts (while forgetting which one was from which side), and re-torqued to factory specs, the rod measurements came back as P1: 2.2392" and P2: 2.2394", so within .0001" of the initial measurements, and a complete A-B-A test. The dimensional changes were definitely due to the higher clamping force from the ARP bolts, and not cap alignment, press fit, etc. And for those suggesting just using the same stock torque with the ARP bolts, that negates the advantage of the improved bolts. You need the greater clamping force to hold the rod together at the higher RPM loads.
I would have liked to see either a new stock bolt and check the OOR or a stock bolt stretch measurement. I think ARP puts priority on fully loading their fasteners to the ideal yield point. Which ends up being a lot more clamping force than you want. I bought some arp bolts for my stock gen 4 but returned them for exactly this reason. Here’s the interesting part I think arp has some bolts that are designed to not require machining. Or at least I have read that somewhere for the cracked ls rod caps. Unsure Cool video appreciate the thoughtful and thorough job you did, dropped a sub. Would be cool to see if you came back to this with a few different alternative approaches/comparisons. Maybe try to find the rod bolt stretch needed to keep the rod round, and compare stretch of new and old bolts vs ARP. You could beat a center punch into the stockers to give yourself a nice stretch measurement point. As long as you use the same mark you should be all good
But even if ARP Bolt torqued to the same spec as a stock bolt... ARP still going to be stronger and hold more... it's not going to break at the same yield as the stock bolt just because you torque them at the same... right
wouldn't the higher clamping force simply be a result of the higher torque, not the bolt material? Couldn't you get the same benefits of the ARP bolts higher tensile strength by just torquing them to the factory torque spec and likely not have this issue? the ARP torque spec is 25-30% higher, so it stands to reason that it would create more distortion. Is there any benefit at all for using the higher torque requirement?
@@funkyzero No, the amount of stretch comes into play, ARP bolts have different qualities than stock bolts do, they react differently under the same amount of torque and also react differently when the rod heats up and things swell.
Pre watching this I thought you'd say it didn't matter, I was ready to jump on you because you don't know what that rod (motor) went through. But you got it right! Also I reconditioned rods late high school through college & saw differences in manufacture tendencies after capping them whether they were close or way off.
Going from 23 lb-ft with oil lube, to 35 lb-ft with UltraTorque is a significant change in bolt tension. It is no surprise the big end changed shape, getting wider and shorter. But now the width of the big end is above Ford's max spec so this rod cannot be resized to spec. If the new bolts were installed to Ford specs, much of the benefit of the stronger bolt is lost, but it is still an improvement. My solution here would be to use =0.001 bearings and go with it.
Excellent video. This is why I wont spin a wrench anymore, especially with modifications. Theres no end to the time and money that can be spent making something "better "
I guess some on has seen what a run off that equates to .00025 to .003 side to side will do. It's like some dope looking at the feeler gauges and seeing the thinnest gauge and thinking, that's what .005 look like... That nothing at all
Interesting video. I come from the world of BMW E46 m3s, high strung motors with tight tolerances. Rod bearings are a 60k serviceable item. Everyone seems to get away with using aftermarket ARP bolts and just torqueing them (no stretch measuring). My engineer brain cries bloody murder every time I hear this, and your findings are exactly why.
When I first seen the video title I was worried you' were going the other way. I once reconditioned a set of BBC rods with stock bolts to with in a couple tenths. Owner later decided to upgrade the rod bolts. He didn't believe me it was going to change the dimensions. I changed the rod bolts using a support block for the purpose then remeasured the big ends. 4 stayed in spec (but with greater use of tolerance) and the other 4 was out of spec. Another time a customer that had work done from a different shop was told to torque his 302 rods to 45 ft/lb. I informed him that the torque should've only been around 30 ft/lb and that all bolts should be replaced due to over stressed. He ended up paying for the new bolts and the original shop installed them but said they didn't need reconditioning. I've no clue as to how they changed the bolts but the big ends were .006 to .007 out of round. He's never been back to that shop.
This video brings home to me the importance of having the knowledge and technique necessary to use precision measuring instruments. It ain't no automatic! Three different people could measure a rod and come up with three different measurements.
I expected a change, but, I was surprised at the amount of change in the up/down measurement. I wasn't surprised at the change across the big end. After thinking about it though, the parting surfaces are fairly rough from the factory, so you may get more "crush" of the surface metal than a rod that has a smooth ground surface, like after a resize.
I think that you have hit the nail on the head. I always question the wisdom of using stretch bolts in any application, since once you have entered the second modules of elasticity, you are one step nearer to shear. In addition, changing the forces in an engine beyond the design levels changes the load on everything in the chain, so looking at one small aspect is fairly pointless, since he rod itself, particularly at the small end, may be outside it's design loads and liable to sudden catastrophic failure. The piston itself at the rod connection may then be the the weakest link. Engineers working on large marine engines in tankers and container ships designed to run 24/7 for 30 years would never play these games.
Nice video. I was suspecting a change, because of the higher torque speck on the ARP bolts. Wonder if the clearence would change on new rods... I may try that same test. Thank you Sir.
Good Video. Fortunately for me unlucky for a buddy of mine I was taught this lesson a long time ago. You always check the big end of the rod. I have seen rods that did not change, I have seen seven that did not change but one did. Most of the time all eight need resized. The little Ford rod will take tons of abuse without failing, the block splits first.
Depending on the head of the rod bolt, some rod bolts sit flatter than others. I suspect that can give the connecting cap a bit of twist/torque and distort the end.
yes sir!! Hard to beleive those Little rods hold up....but they do,but like you said the block!!!! Worked in a machine shop 25 year ago doing the rods/pistons/ and balancing.seen some 289/302 and 283/327 with them spinning 7,000 on stock stuff.......but re-sized or bore checking is the key along with oiling! Sounds like you have seen some 302,s pushed to the limit!
A few years back I rebuilt a BSA A65 engine. I found that the original rods and caps were round enough. I used ARP rod bolts and measured the stretch, just using a standard micrometer. Once together, I checked the torque. It was within a pound-foot of what BSA specified for the rod bolts. The next time I'll do this will be once my Triumph Trident needs a complete rebuild. I have new steel rods and caps for this, and the ARP bolts which came with the rods. No need to resize for this.
@@3rweldingandfabrication375 that was the joke, it closed up the gap on the shell bearing from wear :o) instead of removing the shells, swapping them and putting a piece of coke can on the cap to close it all up :D
No no no! You don't have to use _new_ rod bolts. Just drop the pan and wind the stocker bolts up from 23 ft/lb to 35 ft/lb or more. The more crush, the less rattle. Leave the pan off when you test run it, so that if it's still clunking you can quickly drop the cap and install the coke can shim. Always shim at the bottom, so you don't need to drill an oil hole LOL.
@@johncoops6897 lol, I know your joking, but I actually did drop the pan and shim a knocking rod in an old nova once. I had no money, and needed the car to last a few more months. 3 years later when the cam went bad the rod was still fine. it was a 74 nova with a 250 inline six I drove the car under a big tree, pulled the hood off, hooked a come-along up, and lifted the motor just enough to get the pan off without unhooking anything other than motor mounts. used vaseline as assembly lube when I put her back together. drove her easy for a few days, then right back to driving like a dumb kid. then after the cam went bad, pulled the spark plug out of the offending cylinder to relive the pressure from the non functioning exhaust valve, and STILL drove that car around like a race car for 6 more months before I sold it. that motor just wouldn't die. I finally sold it because I was worried all the raw fuel that dead cylinder was pumping into the engine bay would eventually blow me up.
You definitely need to resize if you change the BOLT TORQUE. You won't need to resize if you add new bolts but use standard torque settings. Of course it's better to grind, hone and resize, but you need to pull the engine to do that.
@@johncoops6897 That's not true at all. Any time you replace rod bolts even if you put the original ones back in you need to resize the rods. In fact any good rebuild requires resizing the rods . Its very unusual to find used rods that check out as good as the ones here. Oh and changing rod bolts with out removing pistons is ridiculous. The internet is full of "Billy bobs" Experts giving out incorrect advice.
That was a really interesting video. As a precision machinist (3~5 micron tolerances, manual machining) and a motorcycle tech it isn't something I've come across before, (even though Triumph motorcycles used bolt stretch since 1950's) Maybe because motorcycles are much higher rpm engines and have to use better quality materials? (imports, 12~20,000rpm) One thing I have found, setting bore gauge is much easier on a piece of 'foam rubber' sheet, 1/2" thick or so. Laying micrometer down is way easier than trying to 'balance' things using a micrometer stand You don't need to touch working ends of micrometer or bore gauge so heat from your hands doesn't make things change dimensions (more critical with aluminium as it has such a high expansion rate compared to iron/steel) Ambient temperature is another factor that needs to be taken into account if your working somewhere 'cold' as body heat can change dimensions more than at a slightly higher temp. (std temp used to be 68f, don't know if that has changed now 'everything' is metric?)
@@The_Performance_Laboratory I just watched a 'bore measuring video', almost got it right I looked for the 'Instructable' I did several years ago. Here's link in case your interested www.instructables.com/The-correct-way-to-measure-a-cylinder-bore-and-mea/
Interesting. Thanks for explaining your method of verifying the C clamp is a precision device now....I feel this has helped me understand some measuring tools.... I want to check the wear on a subaru engine piston bore, so a tool like this and properly measure 3 & 9 and 6 &12 positions as you move up the wall...maybe focus on the highest wear area ? just below the TDC of the piston.... thanks.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory There are many levels of learning and understanding. Your video here helped, like the heart of the Grinch, it grew that day...
Replaced the rod bolts many times in used engines and worked ok. No issues. Guess I was lucky, and many other guys were too. Great information. “If you look for problems, you will find problems; if you look for solutions, you will find solutions.” - Andy Gilbert Check your main bearing clearances with new bolts, or studs. Its always god to know.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory I used arp bolts in stock 350 chevy rods. A mild street engine. Street driven for three years. Just my experience. I know no two examples can compare. My engine had 89,000 on the odometer when I re built it. This was 20 years ago. We checked the cylinder standard bore, replaced the standard pistons with Forged flat tops. From my understanding Forged Piston don't shrink as cast pistons due to heat. So in my application it worked. This was verified thru the machine shop we used for years. That's what I recall. I know technology today supercedes what we used back then. I am new to your channel. The bearings in the old 350 were all to specifications too. I guess I had a Good engine? Thank you for your knowledge. We checked the clearances too. Everything was good.
I have always told people that there is a difference between something working and something working right. An "OK" engine may run and may "feel" good, but an engine done right will usually have slightly better power and last longer in the same application.
Many years ago apps 35 . before I had access to people who could resize rods (I now have a rod hone) I put many sets of bolts in without resizing. I would reduce the press fit of the unfurl to close. To the size of the ones I removed and install them if they where less than 001 out of round I used them. Don't recall having a problem.
Sounded like you had some taper too, also you have a sample size of one. Yes if one comes up out of tolerance then your done anyway. However, if it came up in tolerance, I wouldn't say it was good based on one sample.
I asked a question on SPPTV live about 302 main stud girrdle and you said it will ruin your windage. Can you explain more there is nobody I trust more than a man that has many stangs and has been doing this for years and also is a master engineer...
@@alyssaway94 the issue with most of the stud girdles I've seen, is that you can either run a windage tray, or the stud girdle, and not both, at least with a stock-ish pan. Now with a full race Moroso pan, for example, that has the windage tray mounted in the pan and not on main caps, you're golden.
Hey Ed glad your back..thanks for explaining why I've been having that done for the past 40 years. What has me baffled anymore is the torqueing of rod bolts now depending on a manufacturer. Stretch, torque or degrees..im pulling the 427w out soon and want to inspect the bottom end..and I didn't build it,has scat rods so who knows what rod bolts.
It replaced rod bolts on a 351 that I did a budget rebuild on and had to use a brake cylinder hone to get the proper fit on the crankshaft journals . If l would have had the funds to have a machine shop , I would have done that then spend about 10 hours getting my required bearing clearances . Even though it was a lot of work , I got it running and I have driven it about 35K miles and it still has excellent oil pressure
Can you measure the diameter of the bolts where the caps meet? Seems to me the cap is spreading outward with the stronger bolts, wonder if this is helped by a dimensional difference in the bolt? Or excess clearance in the dowels?
One important thing about metrology is the temperature the measuring is done at. Iif you're serious, you can buy circular standards, in a range of sizes, which would avoid any possible cosine error if the internal dial gaude was slightly off when in the micrometer.
The last few years I've been taking 3 measurement; 1) 45 degrees to rod centerline 2) parallel to rod centerline, and 3) 45 degrees to rod centerline, but on the other side of centerline. More than a few times I've seen measurements at 1) and 3) move in opposite directions with both the existing bolts, and after a bolt change. If you are not routinely looking at this data, maybe you should.
A better made after-market Rod will resize closer to Round if not completely Round. Stock Rods can only come close at best. It is what it is, and you can only get it to tolerance. Otherwise, get yourself a set of Pankel's
I know I learned the hard way if you install main studs you need to align hone. My 350 Buick got the full ARP stud treatment. Ran great and would wind up to 5500 no problem. However, by 25,000 miles I was running 20psi oil pressure when hot. No knocking. I imagine it’s sloppy crank bearings.
agreed but what does that say about tolerance control on the bolt shank? the only way you can get lateral shift is both shanks are under size to a lesser or greater extent.
To get a real look at the rod end roundness you need a 3 point precision gauge by Sunnen precision gage. If you are measuring Bearing clearance the dial bore gauge is fine.
If your. Talking about a ag 300 sunnen gauge that is a good gauge but any good bore gage is more than capable of checking a rod end. When measuring at .0001 and closer many things need to come into play even at 3 tenths, temperature of parts, are the parting lines burr free, has the shop warmed up or cooled down is there interference in a bolt radius and more. Has any of the measuring instruments been calibrated ever? Not the standard that came with the set either that needs checking also
@@scottmuller1901 No you need a dedicated rod gauge to measure a rod properly such as the 3 point gauge used (and usually bolted to) sunnen rod honing machines. looks like he is using a Mitutoyo standard set. They are very good. That is expectable he just needs to keep his fingers off the metal part. Automotive machining is very specialized and requires specialized equipment and training to do properly. The tolerances are very critical.
@@scottmuller1901 If you are measuring clearances that's fine; But roundness is what that precision gauge is about. Setting that Sunnen gauge up for use requires a centering set-up for use where a dial bore is not set-up that way. Concentricity is the key. Rod bearings are not round they have a crown thickness which you can measure with a ball mic. That is where a dial bore is used. Sunnen also has the Dial Bore Gauge which has an adjustable point tension on it so it will be gentle on the bearing surface. I have used these tools for many years and some of my friends also use them in Sikorsky for Precision Roundness. Roundness is the Key Word here. You are not getting the full picture for roundness and concentricity
@@willy3377 i know exactly what your talking about . Roundness, concentricity. I have been in automotive machining for 30 + years of my life. There are other tools very capable of measuring this. Take a 3500 series cat rod and try to handle that on a rod honing machine mounted 300 gauge. I have a sunnen rod hone i have the gauge and know very well it’s capabilities. It is a very good gauge for what it does but it is a comparator type gauge that needs a ‘standard’ so to speak for size setting. I was also talking about other things than just roundness and concentricity. I was referencing the effects of temp, burs possibly other factors that will change the process. Miss machined non planar parting lines for instance. I always measure the bearing thickness with ball mics. For consistency. I would also not try to outthink the engineers by deviation from the design specifications for the rod bore in attempt to set clearance. That needs to be set with crank size.
Definitely not installing the new bolts by themselves. Considering pulling the engine next winter and upgrading the pistons too, while I'm in there resizing the rods for the ARP bolts.
I’ve only replaced rod bolts twice, both times Chrysler V8s. Both had to be resized. Oh and on a Cummins. The Cummins did change the rod size no doubt but it was still within spec.
That is odd. It is as though there is more metal to the outside of the bolt than the inside and that is probably true. Which suggests the fix is fine sand paper on a surface plate with one side of the cap slightly raised to bias the mating surface. *I wonder how round it is with no toque?
When you set your micrometer to the standards using the ratchet thimble or friction thimble the frame is stretched a tiny, but significant amount. When you set your bore gage with the micrometer the frame will be relaxed and the distance between the micrometer anvils will be less than indicated on the barrel. Furthermore, there is backlash between the screw and nut in the micrometer. So slight pressure. must be placed against the screw anvil when adjusting the micrometer. Depending on the wear to the micrometer nut the backlash could be more than a coup!e tenths.
so the absolute dimensions might be out by a tenth or 2, but would any of this affect the relative measurements? i.e. the same errors (in the same directions) should exist for both rod bolt measurements, right?
When clamping a rod in a vise it should be done on the big end of the rod just before the parting line generally. After resizing a rod you can change the bolts using the same style & brand bolt if done properly. Bill Jenkins addresses this in a couple of his books. I have done this myself with no problems. The rod must be torqued and securely clamped over the parting line doing one bolt and retorque at a time. Always re-check sizing. Don't clamp a rod on the small end of the rod, avoid twisting the beam. I've resized so many connecting rods in my life I've lost count. Also its a good idea to change the nuts after a few retorquings.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory I was looking at that and thinking why the hell does he have a Vauxhall Viva in his shop? Looks very similar. Great info in the video by the way👍
I would like to add a point they have come across one setting dial board gauges with a micrometer. When you calibrate a micrometer with a standard spindle and a micrometers under about 2 pounds of longitudinal force which takes up the backlash in the screw. When you insert the board gauge into the micrometer there is a very very minimal force from the dial indicator. The micrometer may have one to three tenths of backlash. If you want to get around this problem you need to use gauge blocks or a rain gauge. Just saying.
13 years of building race motors and some classes have stock rod rules, there was never a question about resizing the big end when changing the bolts. The more power you plan to make the more prefect things need to be.
Þŕ
Exactly
Does this mean you did or did not resize? Unclear
100% correct, there are so many variables in building an engine. Control the ones you can while it is cheap (relatively speaking) to do so.
I am from a past position at Delco Advanced Development and Reliability Engineering , as the US ADRE facilities engineering coordinator. I am very impressed with your attention to calibration and following a predetermined process to create a controlled sequence that is to be followed in the testing of the product and use of in a different perspective than we usually see online
I wonder what the temperature was when he was doing this.
I always strongly caution people about using machine shops that are 90 to 95° F inside during the summer and 50° F inside with everyone huddled around a kerosene heater during the Winter, I've demonstrated to people how much dimensions change over just a 15° F from what's considered the temperature that machine work is supposed to be done at which is 70° F, it makes a bigger difference than people think, especially if you're sizing aluminum pistons into an iron block or iron motorcycle cylinders, when you get down to a minimum clearance like .00075 inch that I sometimes deal with it makes a difference, a BIG difference.
Fuck I'm fucking cold as fuck
Say what?
Their is nothing like data to dispel or confirm a myth. Your efforts help all of us thank you for your time and efforts.👍🇭🇲
So - don't use ARP rod bolts if you don't want an egg shaped rod hole. You probably don't need ARP bolts unless you are racing anyway. This probably applies to any over torqued ARP or aftermarket bolts anywhere on the engine.
and if your going racing stock rods are probably not going to cut the mustard in any event, especially if you want to be competitive (unless you know the metallurgy of the rod and KNOW its strong enough)
@@user-gl5kj1fm5x
"𝘪𝘧 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘨𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘳𝘢𝘤𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘴𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘬 𝘳𝘰𝘥𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘣𝘢𝘣𝘭𝘺 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘨𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘰 𝘤𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘮𝘶𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘳𝘥 𝘪𝘯 𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘵"
The class the car was built for and that he's racing in requires stock rods and other internal parts but "stock eliminator" engines are far from stock output. They're modded to make way more power than the manufacturer ever designed them to, usually aided by spinning 7500+ rpm the whole way down the track. To put that in perspective, the 5.0HO had a factory limiter of 6250 RPM and Ford didn't expect people to even regularly hit that. Watch his clutch tuning video and you'll see he has so much gearing in the car he actually needs to use 5th gear to make it to the end of the track.
I'm 71 years old and rebuilding a 56 Chevy with a 1969 Corvette 427 that has sat for over 25 years from the last time I built it. Had a new cam part part failure, long story and nothing to do with the build process. Life got in the way, raised 2 fine sons, and am now starting over. Your attention to detail makes me question my sanity! ;) Thinking maybe I should just pay a machine shop to build the long block for me! I just really want to drive it again before I die! :)
Many many people just love the building process and not the using part. I've known so many amateur boat builders that spent a decade or so building a boat only to sell it within six months of launching, only to realise that they loved building the thing more than they did using the thing.
It's easy to just pay a machine shop to assemble an engine. The problem is finding a machine shop that'll actually care half as much as you do. And when you do it's gonna cost time is money and the majority of machine shops would rather pump out work for local repair shops who aren't so picky. When you do all the measurements yourself you are 100% sure it's correct.... assuming you spent the time doing it correctly. It's not difficult but there's some cost if you didn't already have the tools.
@@garysgarage.2841 Fortunately, there is a machine shop close by that has a good name, and he races too! He's my age, but he has the experience and the tools. I think I will be money ahead, at this point in my life, to pay a professional to build the short block, and I can finish it. :)
Great video Ed, I've gone through this same exercise a few times while building engines. Some rods don't move around nearly as much as others, my general rule of thumb is that you should always check/measure if your replacing rod bolts.
I love this! Definitely worth subscribing for....wayyyy back in high school I built a Pontiac 400 for my 2nd gen Firebird, I built it poorly of course but the advice I got from my shop teacher didn't help. I wanted to put better rod bolts in and he was all like "go for it". 3 months into running that engine the bearings were finished, this wasn't the only factor of course but it obviously helped. I was told after that about resizing rods, I was a dumb high school kid who got all his knowledge from magazines so how would I have known? Watching this brought that all back, and I love the full hardcore geeky confirmation aspect. Just awesome!
I had expected some change at the start of this, but that was way more than I had expected. Excellent factual demonstration!
I was pulling the pan off to replace rod bolts so i may as well rebuild the entire engine with a twin turbo setup and dry sump. Ahahah love it.
LOL...I think that is what he is saying.
Not only bearing clearance but bearing crush! I applaud your diligence for precision but a few pointers. If you measure the rod in 3 places you can determine if the cap is misaligned now or merely distorted. Number 2 measurement alone won't give you that imfo. Couple other points; ALL measuring equipment should be close to 70 degrees and the subject your measuring also. Very difficult to use the mic to set the bore gauge in tenth of thousands. The finger pressure alone can throw the bore gauge off even tho your rocking it. A setting fixture is preferred. And yes any change in torque will 99% of the time change a bores dimensions. This goes for guys putting studs in main caps, one can get by without line honing if you use the exact same torque on stud as main cap bolt had! Good Video!!!
I suggest measuring in both diagonal directions to understand the variation in cap shift left to right. Obviously the ARP bolts/lube/torque do influence clearances shown in dimension #1. Appreciate the testing!
Dude thanks for all the time taken for the video! Much appreciated! Hopefully you've saved someone a major headache! I've never seen rods come back drone the shop without having machining marks on them. And I've seen serious damage done from this exact issue causing rod seizure on journal. If you aren't going to do it right then just don't do it at all
Great video to show how to measure a rod first, Secondly thank you for putting this myth to sleep about if the big end needs to be resized with ARP rod bolts. Keep doing these types of videos so I can geek out with engine-building content!!!!
“Without data, you’re just another person with an opinion.”― W. Edwards Deming
Perfect! Thanks for finding the source of that (correct) quote.
Yeah dopey office workers with their breakfast cereal pack commerce degrees always mistake data for information. They then apply a good dose of confirmation bias and voila get the answer they want. When it inevitably turns to crap - time then to initiate a blame loop with the lowest paid workers the scapegoats for their incompetence.
The world is full of great hoards of these scabs. W. Edwards Deming would roll in his grave if he could see how his comment was perverted.
I know how it all works ...
BTW I prefer, The trouble with life is all the stupid people have an answer for everything and the intelligent people can't make their minds up. At least that way it's keeping it real. Data is not information and is the realm of the stupid.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory Where the hell did you get that spec book at 3:42? I've been looking for one of those for a couple of years, it has specs for the SVO right? I would guess so if it contains the XR4TI specs. Any info would be appreciated, thanks.
@@jimmartin7881 bought it from Ford in late '87. There are several on ebay right now... eg. item 161794449859
and your just "another person" spouting off your opinion. just like me.
It's because of the increased torque on the bolts that it changed. If you changed the bolt but still torqued to factory spec you see very little change. It still is a yes and no for a resize. If you plan on changing the amount of torque on the bolts then you need a resize. Main bearings do the exact same thing when you change the torque of the bolt. It can also change when a bolt is slightly longer or shorter or a stud is used on mains.
BTW, awesome video. An engineer that actually knows how to turn a wrench - there are so few of us. I work with some engineers who don't know what a ratchet wrench is. Subscribing!
You’re confusing engineers with machinists.
This country's engineers have an awful reputation because of that.
@@tempest411 Yes possibly....in the English speaking world this confusion is common in people who use the term “engineer” when they are do not have the prerequisite training from a tertiary education provider. It is exacerbated by the fact that the media do not understand the difference and most people will never need to deal with an engineer in their daily lives so public exposure to engineers is limited. It is almost exclusively an issue in English speaking countries.
Thanks for doing the work for me. Now we know just why the machine shops recommend resizing the rods.
Damn, that was a really good example and demonstration. I really liked the saying about opinion and data too.
Good Stuff Sir! I knew the answer, but I really like how you laid out your video and explained every detail!
Andy
Every home engine builder has dial bore gage, mic, and standards.
Great video! I didn't know there were people out there swapping rod bolts that were NOT resizing their rods. I can imagine those doing that talking trash about the bolts they put in after they spun a bearing.
Absolutely, it is always the parts Fault.
Thanks for this, always had them resized but never known for sure if it was necessary. Now I know!
Great video "Egghead" lol ! glad to see you back , sounds like your health has improved . Thanks Ed
Hi Ed - Thanks for this excellent video. I'm a mechanical engineer too, and appreciate the attention to detail. I'm about to start the reassembly of a 2110 cc air-cooled VW engine (82mm stroker crank w/90.5 pistons) for my 1970 Crew Cab pick-up. I had this engine together about 10 yrs ago, but paid someone to line-bore and build the shortblock for me because I was doing 60-70hr weeks at work. I built up the rest like a Swiss watch. The engine seized up (on the main thrust bearing) after about 3-4 hrs runtime. A real heartbreaker. By good luck the beautiful new crank was okay after a competent machinist dressed the journal, re-did the line-bore, and set me up with a new properly sized bearing set. Everything's been sitting in enclosed tubs on the shelf ever since, and now I finally have some time to put it back together. The problem is that somewhere along the line I read that ARP bolts are designed to yield ever so slightly when torqued to ARP's recommended level. That being the case, they are not to be re-used. Or so that source said. It seems like a conundrum, because if that's true then when you torque them to measure & re-size the rods, you'd instantly lose everything when you disassemble to install the rods on the crank. You'd be chasing your tail, so to speak. I'd like to get your take (and maybe that of some of the erudite gearhead commentors below) on this matter. Thanks - and you have a new subscriber.
If the bolts don't specifically say they're torque to yield, they're not. Contact ARP to be sure, but sounds like typical internet misinformation. Also, if you're chewing up thrust bearings, check the trans and clutch setup to make sure they're not creating unnecessary thrust.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory Thanks for the reply. I'll call them and ask - easy enough. BTW, I think I know what happened with my thrust bearing. It was seized at its 3 O'clock and 9 O'clock positions, and totally virgin/untouched at 6 O'clock & 12 O'clock. This led me to suspect that the two halves of the VW crankcase weren't fully torqued together when the line bore was done. So, later when it was reassembled the perfectly round bore went football-shaped under full torque, and squeezed the crank at 3 & 9. One other question - any suggestion for where to buy myself a good but reasonably-priced stretch gauge? I see some at Summit that look pretty good. Thanks
@@TallColdGlass Summit is always a good bet.
Another great detailed video, thanks for sharing Ed!
This is why attention to every detail is critical to preparing fitted parts for assembly.Thanks for proving this obscure concept,who wooda thunk it.
It's not in the slightest bit obscure. In fact, it's common knowledge, normal practise, and perfectly logical. It's the exact same reason that you must measure bearing clearances with the bolts torqued to spec.
Our mentors are so important.
It's important to remember them.
Swapped out the rod bolts on my Chevy LSJ as the engine is in an Ariel Atom. 6 years of to the floor road race track abuse and a rod bolt finally let go. I should have gone with better rods and bolts. Nice video.
Based on some of the comments (thanks) I realized I should have included the fact that when I reinstalled the stock rod bolts (while forgetting which one was from which side), and re-torqued to factory specs, the rod measurements came back as P1: 2.2392" and P2: 2.2394", so within .0001" of the initial measurements, and a complete A-B-A test. The dimensional changes were definitely due to the higher clamping force from the ARP bolts, and not cap alignment, press fit, etc. And for those suggesting just using the same stock torque with the ARP bolts, that negates the advantage of the improved bolts. You need the greater clamping force to hold the rod together at the higher RPM loads.
I would have liked to see either a new stock bolt and check the OOR or a stock bolt stretch measurement. I think ARP puts priority on fully loading their fasteners to the ideal yield point. Which ends up being a lot more clamping force than you want. I bought some arp bolts for my stock gen 4 but returned them for exactly this reason.
Here’s the interesting part I think arp has some bolts that are designed to not require machining. Or at least I have read that somewhere for the cracked ls rod caps. Unsure
Cool video appreciate the thoughtful and thorough job you did, dropped a sub.
Would be cool to see if you came back to this with a few different alternative approaches/comparisons. Maybe try to find the rod bolt stretch needed to keep the rod round, and compare stretch of new and old bolts vs ARP. You could beat a center punch into the stockers to give yourself a nice stretch measurement point. As long as you use the same mark you should be all good
But even if ARP Bolt torqued to the same spec as a stock bolt... ARP still going to be stronger and hold more... it's not going to break at the same yield as the stock bolt just because you torque them at the same... right
wouldn't the higher clamping force simply be a result of the higher torque, not the bolt material? Couldn't you get the same benefits of the ARP bolts higher tensile strength by just torquing them to the factory torque spec and likely not have this issue? the ARP torque spec is 25-30% higher, so it stands to reason that it would create more distortion. Is there any benefit at all for using the higher torque requirement?
@@funkyzero
No, the amount of stretch comes into play, ARP bolts have different qualities than stock bolts do, they react differently under the same amount of torque and also react differently when the rod heats up and things swell.
@@alltheboost5363 no the strech not taken up by tq will show when running = worce than stock bolts in allowing fretting .
Pre watching this I thought you'd say it didn't matter, I was ready to jump on you because you don't know what that rod (motor) went through. But you got it right! Also I reconditioned rods late high school through college & saw differences in manufacture tendencies after capping them whether they were close or way off.
Going from 23 lb-ft with oil lube, to 35 lb-ft with UltraTorque is a significant change in bolt tension. It is no surprise the big end changed shape, getting wider and shorter. But now the width of the big end is above Ford's max spec so this rod cannot be resized to spec. If the new bolts were installed to Ford specs, much of the benefit of the stronger bolt is lost, but it is still an improvement. My solution here would be to use =0.001 bearings and go with it.
Excellent video. This is why I wont spin a wrench anymore, especially with modifications. Theres no end to the time and money that can be spent making something "better "
"While I'm in there" = motor rebuild.
I guess some on has seen what a run off that equates to .00025 to .003 side to side will do. It's like some dope looking at the feeler gauges and seeing the thinnest gauge and thinking, that's what .005 look like... That nothing at all
Just found your channel. What a great, easy to understand video. Thanks!🤓
When in doubt ...... test! Love it👍😊
Interesting video. I come from the world of BMW E46 m3s, high strung motors with tight tolerances. Rod bearings are a 60k serviceable item. Everyone seems to get away with using aftermarket ARP bolts and just torqueing them (no stretch measuring). My engineer brain cries bloody murder every time I hear this, and your findings are exactly why.
When I first seen the video title I was worried you' were going the other way.
I once reconditioned a set of BBC rods with stock bolts to with in a couple tenths. Owner later decided to upgrade the rod bolts. He didn't believe me it was going to change the dimensions. I changed the rod bolts using a support block for the purpose then remeasured the big ends. 4 stayed in spec (but with greater use of tolerance) and the other 4 was out of spec.
Another time a customer that had work done from a different shop was told to torque his 302 rods to 45 ft/lb. I informed him that the torque should've only been around 30 ft/lb and that all bolts should be replaced due to over stressed. He ended up paying for the new bolts and the original shop installed them but said they didn't need reconditioning. I've no clue as to how they changed the bolts but the big ends were .006 to .007 out of round. He's never been back to that shop.
I did the same test with stock gen4 LS rods and found that ARP bolts put them out of round just like you found with Ford. Nice job testing!
This video brings home to me the importance of having the knowledge and technique necessary to use precision measuring instruments. It ain't no automatic! Three different people could measure a rod and come up with three different measurements.
Outstanding video, certainly thought me a thing or two.
I expected a change, but, I was surprised at the amount of change in the up/down measurement. I wasn't surprised at the change across the big end. After thinking about it though, the parting surfaces are fairly rough from the factory, so you may get more "crush" of the surface metal than a rod that has a smooth ground surface, like after a resize.
I think that you have hit the nail on the head.
I always question the wisdom of using stretch bolts in any application, since once you have entered the second modules of elasticity, you are one step nearer to shear.
In addition, changing the forces in an engine beyond the design levels changes the load on everything in the chain, so looking at one small aspect is fairly pointless, since he rod itself, particularly at the small end, may be outside it's design loads and liable to sudden catastrophic failure. The piston itself at the rod connection may then be the the weakest link.
Engineers working on large marine engines in tankers and container ships designed to run 24/7 for 30 years would never play these games.
Love your look on things and technology.. thank you
Nice video. I was suspecting a change, because of the higher torque speck on the ARP bolts. Wonder if the clearence would change on new rods... I may try that same test. Thank you Sir.
Check if the nuts are rubbing in the corner of the mounting surface they sometimes are too wide for the flat surface and hit the side.
I did. They fit fine. Always good advice though.
Great information bub!
Good Video. Fortunately for me unlucky for a buddy of mine I was taught this lesson a long time ago. You always check the big end of the rod. I have seen rods that did not change, I have seen seven that did not change but one did. Most of the time all eight need resized. The little Ford rod will take tons of abuse without failing, the block splits first.
Depending on the head of the rod bolt, some rod bolts sit flatter than others. I suspect that can give the connecting cap a bit of twist/torque and distort the end.
yes sir!! Hard to beleive those Little rods hold up....but they do,but like you said the block!!!! Worked in a machine shop 25 year ago doing the rods/pistons/ and balancing.seen some 289/302 and 283/327 with them spinning 7,000 on stock stuff.......but re-sized or bore checking is the key along with oiling! Sounds like you have seen some 302,s pushed to the limit!
@@chrishensley6745 A few, 500HP seems to be the limit on a race engine.
@@chrishensley6745 you t by guy guy guy guy guy guy ÿyt FF guy ff guy try guy try try ttftf get fit TV fy ft t fit try
A few years back I rebuilt a BSA A65 engine. I found that the original rods and caps were round enough. I used ARP rod bolts and measured the stretch, just using a standard micrometer. Once together, I checked the torque. It was within a pound-foot of what BSA specified for the rod bolts.
The next time I'll do this will be once my Triumph Trident needs a complete rebuild. I have new steel rods and caps for this, and the ARP bolts which came with the rods. No need to resize for this.
Great show and tell.
So in conclusion put new rod bolts in a loose engine lol
Nobody is saying that, but i sure was thinking it :o)
If it hadn’t killed the out of round spec then yeah
@@3rweldingandfabrication375 that was the joke, it closed up the gap on the shell bearing from wear :o) instead of removing the shells, swapping them and putting a piece of coke can on the cap to close it all up :D
No no no! You don't have to use _new_ rod bolts. Just drop the pan and wind the stocker bolts up from 23 ft/lb to 35 ft/lb or more. The more crush, the less rattle.
Leave the pan off when you test run it, so that if it's still clunking you can quickly drop the cap and install the coke can shim. Always shim at the bottom, so you don't need to drill an oil hole LOL.
@@johncoops6897 lol, I know your joking, but I actually did drop the pan and shim a knocking rod in an old nova once.
I had no money, and needed the car to last a few more months. 3 years later when the cam went bad the rod was still fine. it was a 74 nova with a 250 inline six
I drove the car under a big tree, pulled the hood off, hooked a come-along up, and lifted the motor just enough to get the pan off without unhooking anything other than motor mounts. used vaseline as assembly lube when I put her back together. drove her easy for a few days, then right back to driving like a dumb kid.
then after the cam went bad, pulled the spark plug out of the offending cylinder to relive the pressure from the non functioning exhaust valve, and STILL drove that car around like a race car for 6 more months before I sold it. that motor just wouldn't die.
I finally sold it because I was worried all the raw fuel that dead cylinder was pumping into the engine bay would eventually blow me up.
I appreciate the information , me I want to have the rods resized after installing the bolts . I been told the same apply if you install main studs.
not always true on main studs since there are steps to locate main caps. on this type of rod the bolt is the locator.
You definitely need to resize if you change the BOLT TORQUE. You won't need to resize if you add new bolts but use standard torque settings. Of course it's better to grind, hone and resize, but you need to pull the engine to do that.
@@johncoops6897 That's not true at all. Any time you replace rod bolts even if you put the original ones back in you need to resize the rods. In fact any good rebuild requires resizing the rods . Its very unusual to find used rods that check out as good as the ones here.
Oh and changing rod bolts with out removing pistons is ridiculous.
The internet is full of "Billy bobs" Experts giving out incorrect advice.
That was a really interesting video.
As a precision machinist (3~5 micron tolerances, manual machining) and a motorcycle tech it isn't something I've come across before, (even though Triumph motorcycles used bolt stretch since 1950's) Maybe because motorcycles are much higher rpm engines and have to use better quality materials? (imports, 12~20,000rpm)
One thing I have found, setting bore gauge is much easier on a piece of 'foam rubber' sheet, 1/2" thick or so.
Laying micrometer down is way easier than trying to 'balance' things using a micrometer stand
You don't need to touch working ends of micrometer or bore gauge so heat from your hands doesn't make things change dimensions (more critical with aluminium as it has such a high expansion rate compared to iron/steel)
Ambient temperature is another factor that needs to be taken into account if your working somewhere 'cold' as body heat can change dimensions more than at a slightly higher temp. (std temp used to be 68f, don't know if that has changed now 'everything' is metric?)
Thanks for the tips!
@@The_Performance_Laboratory I just watched a 'bore measuring video', almost got it right I looked for the 'Instructable' I did several years ago.
Here's link in case your interested
www.instructables.com/The-correct-way-to-measure-a-cylinder-bore-and-mea/
amazing work !!
Very Informative!
Cheerz!!
So glad you took the time to do all that. Now I dont have to. Thanks....👍
Wow I remember getting hit with the resized rods thing ! Very interesting!
Good video very informative
Nice video. Thanks for sharing.
Interesting. Thanks for explaining your method of verifying the C clamp is a precision device now....I feel this has helped me understand some measuring tools.... I want to check the wear on a subaru engine piston bore, so a tool like this and properly measure 3 & 9 and 6 &12 positions as you move up the wall...maybe focus on the highest wear area ? just below the TDC of the piston.... thanks.
Absolutely, you're on the right track.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory There are many levels of learning and understanding. Your video here helped, like the heart of the Grinch, it grew that day...
Great video I learned a lot from this
Priceless!
Replaced the rod bolts many times in used engines and worked ok. No issues. Guess I was lucky, and many other guys were too. Great information.
“If you look for problems, you will find problems; if you look for solutions, you will find solutions.”
- Andy Gilbert
Check your main bearing clearances with new bolts, or studs. Its always god to know.
if you're just replacing with stock bolts, and stock torque, you'll likely be fine.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory I used arp bolts in stock 350 chevy rods. A mild street engine. Street driven for three years. Just my experience. I know no two examples can compare. My engine had 89,000 on the odometer when I re built it. This was 20 years ago. We checked the cylinder standard bore, replaced the standard pistons with Forged flat tops. From my understanding Forged Piston don't shrink as cast pistons due to heat. So in my application it worked. This was verified thru the machine shop we used for years. That's what I recall. I know technology today supercedes what we used back then. I am new to your channel. The bearings in the old 350 were all to specifications too. I guess I had a Good engine? Thank you for your knowledge. We checked the clearances too. Everything was good.
I have always told people that there is a difference between something working and something working right. An "OK" engine may run and may "feel" good, but an engine done right will usually have slightly better power and last longer in the same application.
I have been watching Richard Holdner dyno videos with turbo's, cams etc. He does some good work.
Many years ago apps 35 . before I had access to people who could resize rods (I now have a rod hone) I put many sets of bolts in without resizing. I would reduce the press fit of the unfurl to close. To the size of the ones I removed and install them if they where less than 001 out of round I used them. Don't recall having a problem.
Sounded like you had some taper too, also you have a sample size of one. Yes if one comes up out of tolerance then your done anyway. However, if it came up in tolerance, I wouldn't say it was good based on one sample.
great video!
That was bad news but good to know.. thanks for posting. I wonder if the same applies to the main bearing caps..
Yes, if the stud torque is higher on the main caps, they will distort more and you'll need to align hone it again.
Great video Ed you put some good edit and time in this and will prove alot for people who dont know that swapping bolts is no big deal!!#$
I asked a question on SPPTV live about 302 main stud girrdle and you said it will ruin your windage. Can you explain more there is nobody I trust more than a man that has many stangs and has been doing this for years and also is a master engineer...
@@alyssaway94 the issue with most of the stud girdles I've seen, is that you can either run a windage tray, or the stud girdle, and not both, at least with a stock-ish pan. Now with a full race Moroso pan, for example, that has the windage tray mounted in the pan and not on main caps, you're golden.
Hey Ed glad your back..thanks for explaining why I've been having that done for the past 40 years. What has me baffled anymore is the torqueing of rod bolts now depending on a manufacturer. Stretch, torque or degrees..im pulling the 427w out soon and want to inspect the bottom end..and I didn't build it,has scat rods so who knows what rod bolts.
@@cavemangarage Stretch is key. Measure all the rod bolt lengths before you loosen them, then re-tighten to the same lengths and you should be fine.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory thank you sir
Great video, I've always heard but never truly knew.
It replaced rod bolts on a 351 that I did a budget rebuild on and had to use a brake cylinder hone to get the proper fit on the crankshaft journals .
If l would have had the funds to have a machine shop , I would have done that then spend about 10 hours getting my required bearing clearances . Even though it was a lot of work , I got it running and I have driven it about 35K miles and it still has excellent oil pressure
Can you measure the diameter of the bolts where the caps meet? Seems to me the cap is spreading outward with the stronger bolts, wonder if this is helped by a dimensional difference in the bolt? Or excess clearance in the dowels?
One important thing about metrology is the temperature the measuring is done at.
Iif you're serious, you can buy circular standards, in a range of sizes, which would avoid any possible cosine error if the internal dial gaude was slightly off when in the micrometer.
i used a close fitting mandrel in the bearing bore when replacing rod bolts.
Good for you. And your point is?
What does that do for it?
Just found your channel. Subscribed.
The last few years I've been taking 3 measurement; 1) 45 degrees to rod centerline 2) parallel to rod centerline, and 3) 45 degrees to rod centerline, but on the other side of centerline. More than a few times I've seen measurements at 1) and 3) move in opposite directions with both the existing bolts, and after a bolt change. If you are not routinely looking at this data, maybe you should.
A better made after-market Rod will resize closer to Round if not completely Round. Stock Rods can only come close at best. It is what it is, and you can only get it to tolerance. Otherwise, get yourself a set of Pankel's
I know I learned the hard way if you install main studs you need to align hone. My 350 Buick got the full ARP stud treatment. Ran great and would wind up to 5500 no problem. However, by 25,000 miles I was running 20psi oil pressure when hot. No knocking. I imagine it’s sloppy crank bearings.
Nah, not sloppy. You have simply honed the bearings "in-situ" which is the most accurate way :-)
Might not be clamp load affected , likely just the cap has taken a new position on the rod with the bolt changes
agreed but what does that say about tolerance control on the bolt shank? the only way you can get lateral shift is both shanks are under size to a lesser or greater extent.
Now do the test over with a fractured cap rod and a doweled cap rod, i bet it won't change much if at all. 😉
Tru
Yes
Yes
Hes testing the rod for the engine he has available
@@johnd5805 he should definitely point out that the verdict of the whole video is different for the type of rod though! it's not a universal statement
Interesting vid !!!!!!! 👍👍👍
Nice! This too is becoming a lost art.
To get a real look at the rod end roundness you need a 3 point precision gauge by Sunnen precision gage. If you are measuring Bearing clearance the dial bore gauge is fine.
Absolutely and the contacts are spaced different also there is a surface plate
If your. Talking about a ag 300 sunnen gauge that is a good gauge but any good bore gage is more than capable of checking a rod end. When measuring at .0001 and closer many things need to come into play even at 3 tenths, temperature of parts, are the parting lines burr free, has the shop warmed up or cooled down is there interference in a bolt radius and more.
Has any of the measuring instruments been calibrated ever? Not the standard that came with the set either that needs checking also
@@scottmuller1901 No you need a dedicated rod gauge to measure a rod properly such as the 3 point gauge used (and usually bolted to) sunnen rod honing machines. looks like he is using a Mitutoyo standard set. They are very good. That is expectable he just needs to keep his fingers off the metal part.
Automotive machining is very specialized and requires specialized equipment and training to do properly.
The tolerances are very critical.
@@scottmuller1901 If you are measuring clearances that's fine; But roundness is what that precision gauge is about. Setting that Sunnen gauge up for use requires a centering set-up for use where a dial bore is not set-up that way. Concentricity is the key. Rod bearings are not round they have a crown thickness which you can measure with a ball mic. That is where a dial bore is used. Sunnen also has the Dial Bore Gauge which has an adjustable point tension on it so it will be gentle on the bearing surface. I have used these tools for many years and some of my friends also use them in Sikorsky for Precision Roundness. Roundness is the Key Word here. You are not getting the full picture for roundness and concentricity
@@willy3377 i know exactly what your talking about . Roundness, concentricity. I have been in automotive machining for 30 + years of my life. There are other tools very capable of measuring this. Take a 3500 series cat rod and try to handle that on a rod honing machine mounted 300 gauge.
I have a sunnen rod hone i have the gauge and know very well it’s capabilities. It is a very good gauge for what it does but it is a comparator type gauge that needs a ‘standard’ so to speak for size setting.
I was also talking about other things than just roundness and concentricity. I was referencing the effects of temp, burs possibly other factors that will change the process. Miss machined non planar parting lines for instance.
I always measure the bearing thickness with ball mics. For consistency. I would also not try to outthink the engineers by deviation from the design specifications for the rod bore in attempt to set clearance. That needs to be set with crank size.
Well now I would like to see the same test on main cap bolts/studs!
I suspect the results will be same if you're upgrading to better bolts/studs.
I have a dial bore gage mounted on my rod resizing machine, and have found rods to be out of rouund diagonaly!
I believe it.
Great shirt!
I was hoping to see your decision to for go the new bolts or pull the engine? You didn't seem put off I guess you already know the out come. Thanks.
Definitely not installing the new bolts by themselves. Considering pulling the engine next winter and upgrading the pistons too, while I'm in there resizing the rods for the ARP bolts.
New subscriber. Just found you. Interesting conclusion
Good video.
That surprised the hell out of me!
Honestly, it surprised me too!
Often you can see the offset created from new bolts.
Crazy to think you can just assume the rod will stay true.
I was told to measure the big end bores 90 degrees away from the parting line
This is great! Thanks.
But now try it with the bearing shells in. You will see what I mean.
The caps can go to a different position with the bolt Change.also when you measure only use one hand. The tool centers itself.
I’ve only replaced rod bolts twice, both times Chrysler V8s. Both had to be resized. Oh and on a Cummins. The Cummins did change the rod size no doubt but it was still within spec.
That is odd. It is as though there is more metal to the outside of the bolt than the inside and that is probably true. Which suggests the fix is fine sand paper on a surface plate with one side of the cap slightly raised to bias the mating surface. *I wonder how round it is with no toque?
I’m not an engineer, but my mind, works like yours!😀
Excellent video, learned a lot. What gage standard set do you use?
Thanks. My Mitutoyo micrometer set came with its own set of standards.
I was not expecting the bore to change that much. Thanks for sharing.
When you set your micrometer to the standards using the ratchet thimble or friction thimble the frame is stretched a tiny, but significant amount. When you set your bore gage with the micrometer the frame will be relaxed and the distance between the micrometer anvils will be less than indicated on the barrel. Furthermore, there is backlash between the screw and nut in the micrometer. So slight pressure. must be placed against the screw anvil when adjusting the micrometer. Depending on the wear to the micrometer nut the backlash could be more than a coup!e tenths.
so the absolute dimensions might be out by a tenth or 2, but would any of this affect the relative measurements? i.e. the same errors (in the same directions) should exist for both rod bolt measurements, right?
@@The_Performance_Laboratory
No, it would not change the relative measurements as long as the bore gage was not adjusted between measurements.
When clamping a rod in a vise it should be done on the big end of the rod just before the parting line generally. After resizing a rod you can change the bolts using the same style & brand bolt if done properly. Bill Jenkins addresses this in a couple of his books. I have done this myself with no problems. The rod must be torqued and securely clamped over the parting line doing one bolt and retorque at a time. Always re-check sizing. Don't clamp a rod on the small end of the rod, avoid twisting the beam. I've resized so many connecting rods in my life I've lost count. Also its a good idea to change the nuts after a few retorquings.
I agree with everything. I only (lightly) clamped it on the small end so I could measure the big end with the same camera setup.
Nice HB Torana in the background 👍
Close, it's an HB Envoy Epic, the Canadian version.
@@The_Performance_Laboratory I was looking at that and thinking why the hell does he have a Vauxhall Viva in his shop? Looks very similar. Great info in the video by the way👍
Knew this. Learned it at SAM.
I would like to add a point they have come across one setting dial board gauges with a micrometer. When you calibrate a micrometer with a standard spindle and a micrometers under about 2 pounds of longitudinal force which takes up the backlash in the screw. When you insert the board gauge into the micrometer there is a very very minimal force from the dial indicator. The micrometer may have one to three tenths of backlash. If you want to get around this problem you need to use gauge blocks or a rain gauge.
Just saying.