The Forgotten First Grumman | Grumman FF 'Fifi' [Aircraft Overview #60]
Vložit
- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Today we’re taking a look at the Grumman FF, often known as the “FiFi”. It was the first complete aircraft designed and built by the company, featuring several novel features for the time, and it helped to establish a fruitful relationship between Grumman and the US Navy that would last for decades to come.
Want to join the community? Visit our Discord - / discord
Want to support the channel? I have a Patreon here - / rexshangar
***
Producing these videos is a hobby of mine - and apparently its now a full-time job too! I have a passion for history, and personally own a large collection of books, journals and other texts, and endeavor to do as much research as possible. However if there are any mistakes, please don't hesitate to reach out and correct anything :)
Sources:
Francillon.R.J (1989), Grumman Aircraft Since 1929
Dann.R.S (1996), Grumman Biplane Fighters In Action
![The RAF Almost Ruined A Perfectly Good Plane | Armstrong Whitworth Atlas [Aircraft Overview #59]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/S5SJOaFli4M/mqdefault.jpg)
![The RAF Almost Ruined A Perfectly Good Plane | Armstrong Whitworth Atlas [Aircraft Overview #59]](/img/tr.png)
![A Surprising Success...For A Blackburn | Blackburn Kangaroo [Aircraft Overview #89]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jUGFxpcRDoo/mqdefault.jpg)
![An Often Forgotten Oddity That Served The US Navy | Grumman J2F Duck [Aircraft Overview #40]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7bMOM4OICWs/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Plane That Cut Off Your Arm If You Wanted To Land | CANT Z.501 Gabbiano [Aircraft Overview #65]](/img/n.gif)
Pinned comment disappeared, here is a new one.
F.A.Q Section
Q: Do you take aircraft requests?
A: I have a list of aircraft I plan to cover, but feel free to add to it with suggestions:)
Q: Why do you use imperial measurements for some videos, and metric for others?
A: I do this based on country of manufacture. Imperial measurements for Britain and the U.S, metric for the rest of the world, but I include text in my videos that convert it for both.
Q: Will you include video footage in your videos, or just photos?
A: Video footage is very expensive to licence, if I can find footage in the public domain I will try to use it, but a lot of it is hoarded by licencing studies (British Pathe, Periscope films etc). In the future I may be able to afford clips :)
Q: Why do you sometimes feature images/screenshots from flight simulators?
A: Sometimes there are not a lot of photos available for certain aircraft, so I substitute this with digital images that are as accurate as possible.
Feel free to leave you questions below - I may not be able to answer all of them, but I will keep my eyes open :)
Requests, you often mention Wright engines, what happened to the Wright company, they went from inventing the powered plane, to no planes, just engines, then nothing?
@@RichNotWealthy thanks, I wonder if they are just brand names now, owned by a totally unconnected company, or a real descendant company? I did read a Wright Brothers biography years ago, I gave the book away, I might ask the person if they still have it. I forgot most of it, one thing that did stand out is how they spent most of their time suing other plane companies and those companies just got on with creating better technology, leaving the Wrights as the most undeveloped dangerous planes, sad situation.
if it is possible, please cover the Besler Steam airplane, or any steam powered aircraft.
I'm still upset that Grumman didn't call the LLV (standard USPS mail van) the 'Mailcat'.
considering their fire truck was the firecat it’s definitely a missed opportunity!
methinks some political pressure was behind that…
That’s awesome!
You don't normally associate mail with cats is probably why. But then again when you remember that what you do associate with the mail with messenger pigeons Mailcat is probably a better choice.
@@bigblue6917 the company has a tradition of using cat names: the various cats, cougar, panther, tomcat…they even named their fire trucks firecats so naming the mail trucks mailcat was expected
Ships cats were a thing... Samcat would have been a great nod to Grumman Ww2 naval ties and an homage to "unsinkable sam"
Grumman Aircraft certainly worked out what its market wanted. Build something strong, reliable, good at killing the enemy and will get you back home.
Strong to the point that Grumman was known as the "Iron Works".
@@anzaca1 thanks for adding the comment. I'd missed that
Grumman Ironworks, Wildcat, Hellcat, Avenger, Apollo Lunar Module, Greyhound, Intruder, Tomcat and many more, what an iconic company.
In 1982 CVW-2 aboard USS Ranger was almost completely Grumman aircraft, Tomcats, Intruders, Prowler, Hawkeye and Greyhouds, the Lockheed S-3 Viking and Sikorsky SH-3 Sea King were the only exception.
It's one of few biplane designs that transitioned well into monoplane development.
The picture at 7:40 looks for all the world like a period photo. It had me fooled until I noticed the E3 lurking in the background. LOL.
I was thrown by the same thing! What looks like an early E2 Hawkeye on the right and a VW beetle on the far left of the background dates it to the 60s, probably doing the airshow circuit.
Edit: a bit of google-fu shows this is the plane now on display at the National Naval Aviation Museum, an export model restored to flying condition in 1967.
Grumman didn't just knock it out of the park with the F4F Wildcat and F6F Hellcat--it also produced the incredible F8F Bearcat (which arrived just before the war ended), the F9F Panther (one of, if not the first major operational jet fighters for US carriers) and, rather famously, the F-14 Tomcat, one of the coolest planes ever put into service and the first Generation-4 jet to enter service in the US.
Not to mention the F7F Tiger Cat a twin engine single seat fighter built for use on the new Midway class carriers. It was used in the beginning of the Korean War and made 2 kills of night raiders.
Don't forget The Avenger (TBF).
Though the Avenger was mostly designed by Grumman, it was mostly built by General Motors. TBF became the TBM. Too bad Grumman didn't come up with a Dive Bomber, they would have had a hat trick.
'Hey, just drag 1,000lbs of explosive, a couple of inches off the deck in a biplane.'
Interesting how Grumman keep that overall fuselage shape for the fi fi, Wildcat and to a lesser extent the Hellcat
Even the wildcat clearly went through a diet and lost most of that potbelly although they kept the landing gear configuration. The problem comes down to the fact there's only so many geometries that work when you have a tail wheel and you want to keep the propeller away from the ground. Just look at the P-47 by Republic. Its also slimmed down a bit but it too has the same overall fuselage shape even with wing mounted landing gear.
I love how in the picture shown at 7:19, you can see an E-2 Hawkeye panning into view
Leroy Grumman was certainly ahead of his time.
That and the VW Bug just before that.
Good eye! Now that you mention it, VW Beetles weren't in production till 1938 and certainly didn't exist in the US.
Ah, yup. The E-2 was there to integrate its data link software with the FiFi's automatic fire control system. Either that or it's a frame from the lost episodes of the Twighlight Zone.
@@wkelly3053 No those damn time storms in the Pacific are a major problem for the entire Nimitz class.... Each time it happens Grumman always end up thrilled to see what makes up the majority of the air wings. Well atleast up to the mid '90s that is..
From the FF to the Bearcat, what a run!
Didn't end with the Bearcat. F9F Panther, F11F Tiger, S-2 Tracker, S-3 Viking, A-6 Intruder, E-2 Hawkeye, C-2 Grayhound, and F-14 Tomcat...
@@flyingfiddler90q , are those single radial-engine prop fighters? No, they aren't. They are completely different designs. The line of design was pretty unbroken from the FF to the Bearcat, and then things went in a different direction.
The frequency of your videos is very impressive Rex, you're rapidly becoming a high priority in my viewing schedule. Thanks for revealing the development process of each aircraft, and the interesting images you include.
Back in the mid 80s I was talking with my dear ol' dad about his time in Darthmouth NS with the RCAF during WWII. He began talking about Northrop Deltas and Grumman Goblins. Now I THOUGHT I knew all the aircraft flown by the RCAF back then (boy, was I wrong) but I had never heard of either. He described the Goblin, and explained it was a fighter and my reaction was kind of "you're kidding, right?". Sadly he wasn't kidding; this was the state of the RCAF in the very early war. Excellent video Rex, many thanks.
At 12:57 and a bit after it is interesting that Canadians removed the cockpit greenhouse from several, leaving only the windscreen.
yeah... and left it open! how much drag is that? big air scoop
Well since they were never meant to go to the Frontline, I guess that is no big deal, but it definitely reduces the plane's performance for whatever they decided to use it for back home.
The design philosophy behind this aircraft was similar to that behind the Fairey Fulmar which came out about a decade later in being a two-seat fighter that was intended to do double duty as a "scout" (reconnaissance). However, the U.S. Navy soon decided that a fighter aught to specialize in only being be a fighter, and dropped its' requirement for 2-seat fighters. Instead, from then on the "scouting" role was allocated as a secondary role to the Navy's two-seat dive-bomber
One of the two Navy test pilots - who were testing simultaneously the Grumman and the latest Boeing plane - was the legendary Jimmie Thach. In fact, Thach, whose opinion carried enormous weight with Navy brass, recommended the Grumman for use by the Navy. Thach seems to be almost everywhere in the 1930s, often being brought back to test fly aircraft or to fly experimental aircraft.
And I posted too soon. Thach is literally in the final photo in the video. He is the pilot in the Wildcat designated F-1. Thus is actually a famous photo of Thach and his preferred wingman Butch O'Hare. These first circulated in the early months of the war. The series of photos taken in this shoot may be the most famous photos of a Wildcat ever taken.
From FIFI to LEM, well done Grumman!
Thank you for another informative video. I would love to see a video of the Beechcraft Model 18. A plane that was in production for more than 30 years.
It's not just floats for aircraft. They also made the world's best ever canoes. In the 80's I flew a Beaver on floats with two Grumman canoes on the float struts around British Columbia. Best time of my life. Radial engine, great canoes, nice lakes. Heaven.
The 'granddad' of the F-14 had a pop belly like my granddad !
great-great granddad, there were three generations of planes and designs before the Tomcat
Just want to say I've been watching your videos for several months now,and I really like your short aircraft histories.
#2 time asking. Please do a video on the BF 110 G-4. Three-crew night fighter, FuG 202/220 Lichtenstein radar, optional Schräge Musik, usually mounted midway down the cockpit with the cannon muzzles barely protruding above the canopy glazing. Multiple combinations of engine boosts, Schräge Musik, radar arrangements and forward firing armament were available in the form of Rüstsätze and Umrüst-Bausätze kits.
@7:33- I thought I was looking at a vintage photo of a FiFi on a ramp (i didn't notice the cars in the background) when, as the photo panned right, a Grumman E-2 Hawkeye AWACS plane appeared.
Such a chubby fighter. The navy did put it to the wind tunnel and they were happy with what they saw. Aerodynamics are an interesting and counter intuitive thing.
Great video.
Has anyone wind tunnel tested an egg??
@@jayg1438 I'm definitely sure studens and researchers have. Especially at Embry-Riddle aeronautic institute. It is honestly a good question and golf balls definitely have.
Hello from México🇲🇽. Very interesting video.
Thank you fir the wonderful content
This looks like a stereotypical airplane toy that Norman Rockwell might paint in some prewar picture of an American family. The dad would be smoking a pipe and sitting in an easy chair, and mom would be smiling off into space. I also think of the Sherman as the default image of what a tank should be.
I always thought that honor went to the Polikarpov I-15.
Hey Rex, here's an idea for your channel.Hows about a Combo Video with Drachinifel about shipboard Catapult or Float planes used by various Navies during the interwar period?Best of both words, so to speak
It looks very good, a biplane with enclosed cockpit and retractable undercarriage.
Would like to see you feature the Grumman F9F Panther.
A favorite of mine. No plane is more emblematic of the transition of a straight-wing fighter to a swept-wing one - because it was done on the same airframe, producing the Cougar.
Now i know why the early grumman fighters had that distinctive shape. Thanks
A charming little plane!
F.A.Q Section
Q: Do you take aircraft requests?
A: I have a list of aircraft I plan to cover, but feel free to add to it with suggestions:)
Q: Why do you use imperial measurements for some videos, and metric for others?
A: I do this based on country of manufacture. Imperial measurements for Britain and the U.S, metric for the rest of the world, but I include text in my videos that convert it for both.
Q: Will you include video footage in your videos, or just photos?
A: Video footage is very expensive to licence, if I can find footage in the public domain I will try to use it, but a lot of it is hoarded by licencing studies (British Pathe, Periscope films etc). In the future I may be able to afford clips :)
Q: Why do you sometimes feature images/screenshots from flight simulators?
A: Sometimes there are not a lot of photos available for certain aircraft, so I substitute this with digital images that are as accurate as possible.
Feel free to leave you questions below - I may not be able to answer all of them, but I will keep my eyes open :)
How about the chonkiest modern biplane ever built, the Antonov AN-2?
I'm not sure if this falls in the scope of what you want to do with the channel, or if you can find more information than what's on wikipedia, but I think it'd be neat to get a video on the F9C Sparrowhawk and how they were integrated into their motherships. personally, I find even mundane details like the presence or absence of a dedicated pilots ready room, or how much the airplane specific equipment weighed to be fascinating.
Lockheed Super Electra/Hudson. Forgotten aircraft today, but during the late 1930s and into WW2 it did everything. One of those aircraft that was so flexible, it was pressed into all kinds of duties. The RAF bought buckets of them and flew them till the rivets fell out. Today, lost in the haze of history.
Got one for you if you don't have it yet. The Dayton-Wright Rb-1. crazy little racer that didn't really get to prove itself, but does exist to this day. Built in 1919
Dornier Arrow.
Any plan to do some of the more famous WWII planes? Planes like the P-38 and F4U had some really fascinating teething problems in their early days. And I've always heard that the Mustang was designed in a matter of weeks, but I don't know if that's really true or the whole story.
Yes, but these will be long videos due to their history. I have plans for ALL WW2 aircraft, but the research is taking a long time, and I think each video will probably be a two-part affair. But at least it means I will be kept busy! :D
@@RexsHangar with the really famous ones, you could probably afford to make a dozen episodes. For example, something like the P-40, you could probably do multiple episodes about just its use in China. But the fun of YT documentaries is that you can go into more fine detail than a TV doc that needs to cram everything into a tiny length of time. I think if you feel like you have enough content on a particular plane to do a video on it, it's better to just make that video and not worry about being 100% thorough all at once.
Having just watched the new Top Gun movie with an appearance of the now obsolete Grumman F14 Tomcat it's amazing to think that this pot bellied little biplane is where it all started 👌
From FiFi to Goblin haha. Sounds like it would make a good Spiderman episode. ;) In my younger days when I was getting into canoeing I always wanted a Grumman, had to settle for a Lund....
Those late biplanes really got something about them
Thank you.
Have I ever commented and lauded your opening sound of the start-up of a Merlin engine. Glorious.
Thanks!
Great video, as always 🙂 Have you thought about making a similar thing to the one about early Hawker planes, bug on Grumman? 🙂
Love the videos well presented and entertaining.
Thanks for another interesting video
Looks like a Booster sea Gladiator with a retractable undercarriage which was a very good biplane fighter aircraft
this was only in service a short time but what it did laid the groundwork for the US Navy for 90 years! only McDonell Douglas has had a longer connection but not with offensive aircraft
Great post.
I had only got to 7:18 on the film and noticed a Volkswagen parked in front of the operations building, What The....! Then the E-3 came into view.
Great video as usual, can't wait for the next one!
Guessing Pensacola is my next Road trip, as this bird the only reason you'll find me in Florida ever. Recall seeing a plane much like it in an old John Wayne film early on in his career. She's pretty. Shame there's only the one left.
That deep nose & belly so common of later Grumman designs started right at the very beginning then!
Fifi, although portly, could still hitch up her skirts and make a dash fir it! 😆
Swell video my friend .
You deserve more subs.
Please cover the Romanian I.A.R. 80!
Yes. Romania, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Poland all had their own interesting aircraft! Always overlooked.
You need to do a story on Elsie MacGill. The Queen of the Hurricane. Then on "F" For Freddie.
thanks for this and all else
Now you definitely need to do a presentation on the beautiful, beloved F3F!
Thank You.
Another great and informative video
I have known most of my life this plane existed. As a gamer I collected a lot of odd info when I was young. The Flying Buffalo was a fave of mine.
Nice Video!
As always a very interesting video! Keep up the good work!
Everyone’s trying to cash in on the new Top Gun movie :p
Really enjoyed it ,, thanks.
FWIW: Starting at about 07:16 in this video: That photograph is a relatively contemporary image. There is a Volkswagen Beetle amongst the automobiles in the background, and {a few seconds later} a Grumman E-2 Hawkeye is visible on the aircraft ramp.
{This is IN NO WAY a criticism of the video. I just happen to like _both_ aircraft and air-cooled Volkswagens, so they kind of just jumped out at me when I saw them...😊}
I never could understand the philosophy behind the idea of having two seat fighter. Also for Canada, if really needed perhaps their planes could have been modified to carry depth bombs and thus be used in anti-submarine patrols.
For use by the various navies who employed them the two seat fighter was primarily for use out over the water so you could have a navigator to find your way home. Over land it was often used for observation purposes, hence why the original flexible mount guns are usually mentioned as "for the observer" and stems heavily from the fact that the original use for planes in combat was as observation platforms to spot enemy movements and direct artillery (naval or ground based). The pilot could focus on flying and watching for threats while the other person could make observations and notes about enemy positions or use the radio. Even some true dedicated two seat fighters were built, primarily in WW1 with examples like the Bristol F2B. In those days the observer/gunner covering the rear often had as much or more firepower as the forward facing guns on most fighters. And being on a flexible mount they didn't have to be perfectly lined up up to shoot back.
@@alexsis1778 Makes sense, thank you. I could see them primarily being used as spotter planes.
Hello from 🇷🇺Russia. Great channel and great video)
Greetings from the UK 🇬🇧
Heyo from the United States 🇺🇸
@@shindenfighter3303 Do not freeze without Russian gas and oil....
Going straight by the numbers, Leroy Grumman lived long enough to see the Tomcat fly...
If I could fly, I would love one.
Now I want the Airfix kit.....or Revell.....
I'm confused. Weren't the 30 cal guns the M1919? Was mentioning the 30 cal M2 a slip of the tongue, or is there a non .50 M2 I'm not aware of?
I'm assuming you'll cover the FF-2 and FF-3 in the same video?
Do you mean F2F and F3F?
@@Mishn0 Yes! I knew I was mangling those as I wrote them. 😃
Look at the picture used at the 7:46 mark in the video. Sure looks like a modern Navy AWS airplane in the background on the right. What’s the deal.
Another excellent video. I hope whoever the innovator/inventor was for the horn balancer gets their do credit, such a simple, yet effective device. Mr. Rex, I sometimes wonder if your trying to trick us so someone would make a fuss about some trivial thing you illustrate or a statement you make as this video shows, ha ha. You're baiting us, aren't you LOL.
Comically Anglo pronunciation of my country of Nicaragua😭 its more akin to "Kne-kar-ah-gwa"
Will you please do a video on the Supermarine 224 or the Hawker Fury monoplane ( precursor to the Hurricane) ?
"Niceragua?
Yeah he butchered that pronounciation
Thanks very very much.....Shoe🇺🇸
can you do an episode on the grumman goose
Great vid Rex! A fascinating aircraft for sure. Do you have any info on the FF that went to Japan?
Its Messerschmitt, not Meschersmitt.
I once noticed a photograph of a Grumman SF-1 with what appeared to be a machine gun on top of the upper wing, like something from WW1. And if you check aviadejavu you will see a side drawing of one of these recon versions of the fifi with that machine gun. Does anybody know anything about it?
What’s the deal with all the stuff hanging off the Boeing at 06:30 ?
I want you to do more videos where you say Nicaragua
Have cousin that everyone calls , Fifi . Shes also top heavy.
3:33
There’s an error here the M3 .50 cal came into service in 1945.
Unless Grumman had a time machine.
What's up with the picture at 7:44? Just an FF in the foreground and an E-2C in the background?
I am probably thinking of the wrong aircraft but I thought 💭, for some reason that only my brain 🧠 knows, that the USN also used the FF-1 as a dive bomber and that due to fatigue issues within the main spars they were obliged to stop that use, and that fatigue issue also contributed to their shortened service life alongside the rapid development of new aircraft. I am probably 100% wrong and I am sure you can steer me in the right direction, but be gentle, I don’t want to crash and burn 🔥. 😀👍🇬🇧🏴🇺🇦
Interesting, that most the photos [12:38] of the FF-1 ,,Delfin'' in Spanish Republican service, show them in Nationalist [Pro-Franco] markings. OK, [12:42] there's one shot of a half-burned Republican Delfin.
Sadly I couldn't find any photos of them in republican service, but it felt weird showing Canadian or U.S versions for this bit so I went with what I could find.
@@RexsHangar Well you've got the one burn out* at [12:42]. I guess that shows what an asymmetrical conflict the Spanish Civil War was. Unorganised Leftists, Liberals, Anarchists, and other assorted international idealists against ruthless professional soldiers with the backing of Fascist regimes with modern equipment.
* Can't tell from the low resolution if the aircraft is camouflaged in a mottled light sandy brown with many small green splotches [like Italian desert aircraft] or that's just the burned up fabric showing. B+W has its limitations. I'm a bored 1/72 modeler and obscure camo and marking variations interest me.
Wait a minute...Fifi is a DOG's name!!!
Grumman, how could you????!!!!
So when do we get the Grumman "Flying Barrel", aka F3F? Or did I miss it?
Didn't he already made a review of it,at least as a offshoot of a F2F?
@@kaletovhangar He released a video on it, a few weeks after I posted that comment.
Where are the guns?
He said where they were planned to be...but none of the pictures showed them.
Irin Works
Browning M2 is .50 cal
Solid but she looks a mite bit pregnant.
Was this the plane that attacked King Kong on the Empire State Building?
How did an example end up in Japan? Captured in China?
Don't knock it, the Goblin never allowed ANY German or Japanese aircraft to cross Canadian borders. That's a record worth shouting to the world.
On the other hand, neither Germany nor Japan ever attacked Canada, so . . . .
PZL 23
pls
:)
Sorry to be that guy because I thoroughly enjoy your videos, but the Browning M-2 is not a .30 caliber. The M2, aka "Ma Duce', is the .50 cal. So, if they were Brownings .30 caliber guns, they would have been M1919s.
AN/M-2, Browning M-1919 version for use on aircrafts, in fixed or flexible mounts.
AN/M-3, Browning M-2 HMG version for use on aircrafts, infixed or flexible mounts.
Never ever underestimate a 'new' company coming along. Calling Grumman a new-boy is so, in hindsight, stupid. It does however perfectly reflect the lofty attitude of these government positions. Huge big mouths but not a bloody clue what is going on outside of their cramped silly offices.
The nickname of Fifi (F1F-1) didn't take much brain power to come up with.
FFS you speak the Queen's English - it's DAY-TAR