Let's also not forget that when it comes to being high lord, Tamlin was never supposed to be one......hence why he was never taught those things, he probably had to learn everything via books and texts and stories of previous high lords and had to perceive the rights and wrongs all by himself, which would have been somewhat ok had his father not been toxic, so Tamlin from the very beginning wasn't always clear on what's the normal way of things (Like dude literally had to hide his skills with the fear of being killed by his own families). Often times I have seen people talk about how Tamlin never empowered Feyre, even said that she would never be high lady, while Rhys was such an amazing guy for he saw Feyre as his equal.....but I definitely never am able to see Tamlin from Acotar belittling Feyre (like girl literally got killed saving the whole of Prythien). What I think happened was that he was scared, scared of loosing her again, scared that she will again put herself in harms way for him or court and understandably that was the last thing wanted.....and as for Feyre being the high lady, well I think he genuinely didn't know that it was possible, cause as I said he learned everything via books, so all his knowledge is bookish hence why it often times seems that he has no explanation as to why he thinks a certain path is the correct one to take (As I said he had to rights and wrongs all by himself with no guidance). Kind of like imagine if a child grew up learning morals from the books of a poet from way back then.....he isn't going to be considered very wise nowadays, as his mindset will not be as open minded as todays youths, because he learned everything from a book from a time when that kind of mindset was normal. It's also mentioned that Feyre felt suffocated in the Spring court after the battle under the mountains, because Tamlin was all like: "Let's get married everything will be fine then" instead of letting her process the trauma....but to me it rather felt like that's all he knew, he never got time to process trauma so he just adapted himself with the whole "start to quickly do good and happy things, start to quickly move on and pretend it never happend and all will be good" mindset, getting married/fixing the court/going back to normal life was his way of picking up the pieces and fixing things, his way of coping.....and perhaps all Feyre had to do was communicate, which she never did, she never understood him. Tamlin's character was never meant to be toxic, and that's why when he became the villain further on in the series, it honestly felt like his whole character dynamics had changed.
Super interesting take🤔 I personally don't agree when it comes to feyre though. I think tamlin really did see her as less than him. And I'm also sure he saw how bad she was doing after they came back from under the mountain. He just didn't want to acknowledge it. And I reckon it's because if what you mentioned. It's how he's been dealing with trauma. To put it away and never acknowledge it again. It just doesn't mean he can put away feyre's trauma and never acknowledge it. Wether SJM meant for tamlin to be as much of an antagonist as he became or not is something only she can really answer. What is important to acknowledge is that a lot of abusers do seem like the loving and caring partner when you get into a relationship with them. They don't start out as the villains. But yeah, when it comes to Tamlin, it's like you said about him never having learned anything about being a high lord and dealing with trauma. Let's hope a really good therapist shows up...
@@WanderingManon Your take is also very interesting.....Yes let's really hope a good therapist shows up, because I also agree that putting away your own trauma is one thing, putting away someone else's is different......I think that's what he feels is right, because let's be real boy never really had human interactions that would teach him the actual Rights and Wrongs......I think he saw Feyre as less than him because his only knowledge in relations has been in hierarchies, "one sits at the top, other at the bottom" that's ALL he knew about his position as a high lord......He treated Lucien the same even tho Tamlin considered him a friend, but whenever anything serious happened he went into High Lord mode. I'm saying this because in the first book before shit hit the fans, he was often teased by Lucien, and was also shown attitude, but he never really brought out the "I'm your high lord" key until the second book when things went downhill for him.
I think we should also not disregard Ianthes influence on him. After all his background and all the trauma he inevitably went through with Amarantha and the curse, which happened due to him explicitly NOT DOING what he was expected to do, but to follow his INSTINCTS, and the additional trauma of seeing Feyre die, there is suddenly this person, whom he was taught to respect by status, who had much more experience than him, who offered him guidance and fed him how he should rule. What his people needed. She's manipulative as shit and he's clearly vulnerable. She sees exactly which buttons to push on him to basically assume his power, but she also knows that Feyre is a threat to her. That Feyre and Tamlin developing a good relationship could see both of them healing - and thus escaping her control. Inathe did everything in her power to prevent that. Tamlins blind jealousy is part of his insecurity. He trusts Lucien - yet he's TERRIFIED at the possibility of Lucien and Feyre being a thing. Ianthe also feeds into these insecurities. I don't think Tamlin is a bad person - his friendship with Rhys is an indicator of that, a lot of his early life seems to be. I think he's really struggling to break through the boundaries and toxic behaviours he was taught and has since internalised, alongside a lot of trauma. I think a redemption arc could turn out VERY interesting. I think there is a lot to be explored, even within YA Romantasy territory.
Okay, but there's still no such thing as "being a high lady." Feyre is not a high lady in actuality: it's an empty title that Rhysand gave her and which Rhysand can take away. It's ceremonial, and even then Feyre doesn't *do* anything as a high lady--and I can't blame her, nor can I blame Tamlin for not giving her authority within his court. Feyre, lets not mince words, is an illiterate teenager with *zero* understanding of how the Spring Court functions. I'm sorry, I don't care who she is, what she does, how powerful she can be, she has literally zero qualifications for being a "high lady." Tamlin wasn't raised into the role, either, but he still grew up in the position and he had literal centuries to learn how to do it. The "let's get married, everything will be fine," is taken way out of context. Tamlin is a king in all but name, King of the Spring Court. Feyre is not the centre of his universe: he has a kingdom to run, to rebuild. That takes time and energy, especially in the years proceeding the downfall of Aramantha. Yes, it was a highly stressful time, and yes he (and Feyre) could've processed their trauma better, but getting married even if you don't want to is quite literally just what nobility does. Everyone's too busy with this girlboss mentality of how noble life worked way back when, but within the culture of a pre-modern feudal society (which the Spring Court *is*), Tamlin and Feyre's wedding would have been just as much an important political move as any other in bringing stability and hope for the future to the realm. Their issues can wait: people are suffering. It doesn't matter if fixing the court is a coping mechanism. It's literally his job and people will die if he doesn't do this very important work that Feyre cannot help with because she is (to be very unkind for the absolute monstrous and vile act of *destabalising an entire realm via mindrape and getting so many innocent people murdered over her grudge against her ex*) a stupid, impulsive little girl with zero political training, zero ability to read, zero understanding of the culture and society she now lives in, and, hey! wasting away into nothing, which makes bringing her out into border conflicts incredibly dangerous! Tamlin didn't leave her without a guard, not just because of trauma, but because she has zero combat ability, zero sense of self-preservation (acotar showed how reckless she can be), and actively weak because of her current inability to eat.
Yesss Tamlin was a sweet guy, I hate what they did to his character. Also Rhys bugged be from the moment he called Feyre his belongings and made her walk out half naked.
I found my people 😭 I’ve tried explaining to my best friend why I have such a soft spot for tamlin and always end up crying when he shows up but she doesn’t understand because she hates him so much beyond reason. I feel so happy because I definitely think his character is something that should be talked about more instead of being villainized nearly as much as Amarantha herself
his character assassination was crazy and honestly wished his character was dealt with better instead of villainized and tossed to the side, deserves a redemption arc or something.
@@luvraion The crazy thing is that ACOWAR was his entire redemption story, and people still twist every heroic thing he does in it to STILL say he's bad when nothing he does in ACOWAR is bad! But I'm glad we (most likely) met his future mate, and that there is hope for a future book for him to heal and find her...since she is staying in the Winter Court atm
Tamlin deserves healing and redemption, because he did unquestionably bad things, but it came from pain and trauma, and in *this* series, toxic behavior isn’t a deal breaker or something you can never come back from. Just look at Rhys in the first book (and even somewhat in later books) being toxic and still being praised. Tamlin went through some shit, started portraying unhealthy coping mechanisms, and in the end began to try and make it right, but he’s still treated as an evil person by some fans.
i'm a hard team rhysand stan, he has his yikes moments for sure (acosf, I'm looking at you) but i can't quit him. that being said, i HATED how easy it was for feyre to completely destroy the spring court. i 100% understand her blind anger, if someone had hurt and betrayed MY mate the way tamlin did with rhysand, i'd be out for blood as well. but she completely lost all rationale. girl spent MONTHS at the spring court getting to know tamlin, seeing how he interacted with his people, how good he was to lucien, to her, to her family. he wasn't perfect, he's definitely the very definition of a flawed hero but he TRIED. his heart was always in the right place and it's why she fell in love with him in the first place. and then it was just so fucking easy to completely break him and not even feel remorse. she didn't even CONSIDER that he could've been playing both sides with hybern, it was so easy for her to write him off as a bad person. I would've understood her toppling the spring court if at ANY point in the 2nd OR 3rd book she showed even just the slightest bit of remorse for her actions but if anything like that came up, it fell completely flat in a 1 off sentence. i was genuinely mad at feyre that she didn't bother visiting tamlin after the war with hybern just ONCE, for closure and to thank him personally for his sacrifice. if she wasn't going to apologize, to at least thank him IN PERSON. and don't get me started on rhys showing up at spring just to twist the knife. i'm very conflicted about the scene, their personal history definitely warrants rhysand's hatred towards tamlin and i understand that he would want to see him suffer. but the guy SAVED HIS LIFE. he saved his MATE and gave them both a 2nd chance to live happily ever after. tamlin sacrificed himself and his reputation over and over for feyre and at least THAT should've been enough for rhys to at least bite his tongue when he saw how horribly fragile tamlin had become. when tamlin showed up at hybern's camp and let himself be mauled so that feyre could live, my heart hurt for him. like i said, i'm team rhysand all the way, but tamlin deserved to have his pain seen.
@Yael um no. The first time she was fine but shaken. The second time it was her plan to get his magic to blow up and wanted it to harm her so she could turn his people against him. But nice try.
@@booksnwriting my love, just because she happened to be able to shield herself doesn’t take away the fact that Tamlin blew up the study. She was able to use her words to get him to a point of anger where he almost killed her again. Now, we KNOW he is able to control his temper because we see him hold it in around people who are stronger than him. He simply was abusive. Was Feyre right to take advantage of that fact? Absolutely not. But regardless Tamlin again and again only thought about himself and what he wanted. Okay byeeee
Agree with what you said ! 👌Tamlin had and still has no support system, hence all of his actions ! People really need to try to put themselves in his shoes for some time...
Thanks :) I think the no support system is really one of the main things that doesn't give him the right mind space to make the best decisions for others, his court or himself.
@@WanderingManon absolutely ! this is exactly what he needs right now, I hope SJM will give it to him because he already started his redemption arc in book 3 to me, with the Rhysand revival and Feyre being saved by him in the Hybern camp, like he shows he's not evil at all deep inside !! He has a good heart in my opinion 💚 it's just his mind is unhealthy and he needs help to fix it ! We all deserve that !
I also would be v interested to see how some form of therapy would go for him. If after that he still decudes to go back to his toxic behaviour then I'm all here for the tamlin hating train ✊️
I think he was already redeemed in acowar when he saved all their lives (and dragged beron to the war). I didn't like when Rhys got wind that he was suicidal then purposely went there and told him to rot. I was so glad Lucien yelled at him for that. But I do think he needs healing and he needs people who won't leave him when shit gets hard and he gets frustrated bc he's NEVER had anyone care about him or anything about him. Also, I'm 100% convinced that Briar is his mate and she can really help him believe that he deserves love and healing
@Boss Umbra she's the woman that Jurian, Feyre and Tamlin rescued from the Hybern camp. SJM named her which has a significance to characters who will be back (like she didn't even name Luciens brothers). Her name translates to thorny rosebush and the new, powerful wind power that Tamlin sent to her and Feyre ti get away screamed mate bond to me because it mirrored Lucien accidentally spellcleaving to get to Elain!
Oooookkkkk, not gonna pretend what that means, but something in my gut tells me SJM isn’t that talented as a writer to write Tamlin being redeemed because that might make him into more of an interesting character - more than her Rice-Boy. I have a theory she’ll just keep him there and miserable. I mean, if she can’t have Fey give him her Dear John in person, than I don’t think she’ll do anything else with him.
@Boss Umbra What are you talking about? Him singlehandedly saving seven people that dislike him in acowar WAS his redemption LOL. And you don't need to forgive or forget to move on. She's proved that with Azriel and Nesta and Feyre and even Lucien. Why would he be shackled to Feyre forever? Ick. She literally got half his court killed and the rest had to flee. And it's actually gross that she brushed off her guilt for it. If anything she should be sending people to help rebuild Spring if she's too weak to face him herself even after she already forgave him like three times and did send him an "I wish you have happiness too" letter.
@Boss Umbra Also SJM doesn't keep any of her characters in perpetual torment. She always says there's potential for better for them all and she has claimed she isn't quite done with Tamlin yet. Even if she doesn't like him, he's still her character that she created. She can fix his suicidal tendencies and let him move on too
I've seen comments on other videos that they think that SJM based Tamlin off of a partner she had at the time (writing book 1). Which is why he is this knight in shining armor that Feyre falls in love with. Because of this when they broke up SJM decided to trash his character (Tamlin) in order to deal with the breakup. Which makes sense to me since it felt like she only brought back Rhysand all of a sudden and turned him into the new love interest and hero since SJM was not able to view Tamlin as anything other than a "bad guy." I don't think Tamlin is the worst since Rhysand has also done bad things to Feyre as well. Like I don't understand all of the hate Tamlin gets since Rhysand bugs me more than him. And honestly Feyre became bland and uninteresting in book 2 when she finds out about being mates with Rhysand since SJM made that her whole entire personality.
To me it was obvious that she was always planning on making Rhys her mate. You could tell by the way she wrote about him in book 1. So I don’t think she did a full 180 with Tamlin because her boyfriend in real life dumped her. I think she was always planning on ending Feyra’s and Tamlin’s relationship.
@@Kennylovessandwiches I don't really see it this way, I think she did plan a love triangle but with Tamlin as the clear endgame, after all love triangles were (still are I think?) a hot thing in YA fantasy/paranormal books. I don't know if Tamlin was really based off her ex boyfriend, but I do think that at some point and for some reason she started liking Rhys more than Tamlin, and went with that instead of with what actually made sense narrative wise, because while Tamlin's actions can be explained in-universe, it still feels like character derailment for the sole purpose to prop Rhys up.
I feel like too that Tamlin does do alot of harm to feyre, but that alot of it benefits her in the end. Her sisters become immortal, she finds rhysand, she becomes high lady of the night court, alot of things happen because of tamlins actions and feyre kind of thanks him for that, but still he's seen as the WORST by every character we meet. His chemistry if you want to go there with feyre also feels bland but like, he tries in ACOTAR. She loves painting? why not give her a art studio! She loves swimming in starlight, drinking faerie wine? lets do that more. He and her do things together outside of war and surviving, is it great? no, but it's kind of nice to know he does activites with her to connect better, and they connect on their personal burdens from the jump start. BUT I feel like Tamlins actions can be explained and sort of not wiped away, but not really but kind of forgiven considering how much it helps the others. AND ontop of that, Tamlin does shitty things yeah, should he be forgiven? not really, but Rhysand ALSO does alot of fucked up shit that nO ONE EVER calls him out on. None of the court tell him he's in the wrong, FEYRE doesn't even once yell at him. Rhysand hid from her the fact he knew she was going to die, and he got off scott free from it. Rhysand drugs and jokes about sa-ing Feyre, he gets a 19 year old to dress in something shes clearly uncomfortable with, does it again, and parades her around like shes an object, a prize he won. If Rhysand is redeemable I think Tamlin is even more so.
Tamlin didn't have a part in Feyre's sisters becoming faeries, though? That was all the priestess bitch, and being betrayed by Hybern. He was the only one who tried to stop Feyre's sisters becoming faeries. Finding Rhysand is... I wouldn't describe that as a benefit. Rhysand is a manipulative, possessive, sexual abuser who is just as cruel as he pretends to be, and his act of making Feyre into High Lady is literally... an empty gesture. She gets no power other than that which Rhysand gives her. She's a glorified consort to the High Lord, and doesn't really do anything with her power.
Yes! This is the video I was searching for. I think there is a lot to be said for Tamlin and he didn’t have any support system. I wish, I really wish Tamlin was given more time and the help he needed and then see where it goes. Thank you for this
I love him so much. But he's been literally targeted since he was a little kid. If he wasn't being groomed by Amarantha, he was being hunted by his brothers
It took a couple readings for me to get here, but I'm not in the Tamlin hate camp, either. So much of ACOMAF was focused on Feyre's trauma response and recovery that his is ignored. We can't forget, be also watched the woman he loved die when he couldn't do a damn thing to save her. We don't know what his nightmares were, just that he had them. MAF is only a couple months after under the mountain; how much is he pushing down during the day to set a strong leadership example? And Lucien states outright that Tamlin is a protector. I believe that Tam truly thought he was doing what was best by Feyre, not realizing that what he needed to move on from the trauma was in opposition to what she needed. It blinded him so much that he couldn't see what it was doing to her, hear her when she stated outright what she wanted/needed. In WAR, he lashed out at her and Rhys during the High Lord's meeting because he was hurting-- he'd done everything he thought he should and Feyre not only threw it back in his face, she destroyed his court in the process. Her info from that time poisoned the other High Lords against him. Then, he had to watch the woman he loves weep over another man, only for that man to come and drive the knife in further. The news of the pregnancy was likely the final straw. None of that excuses him from holding Feyre prisoner. Or ignoring her explicitly stated "I left you" letter. Or making an alliance that resulted in her sisters being violated. But I can't hate him for hurting over his broken heart. I'm going there's a book after ACOSF that shows someone helping Tamlin rebuild. Tarquin seemed willing, I hope Tamlin can accept the offered help
I think his father threatened his mother so Tamlin would give up the location :( because he said she was the only one who cared about him even from the sidelines
Yes! Thank you! I always thought Tamlin was a beautifully written character. Definitely one of the most poignant and compelling characters in the entire series because he's so dynamic; not personality wise maybe, but his character and actions change with whatever is going on/happening to him, which is way more realistic than some of the other characters who stay pretty much the same despite the circumstances.
Tamlin isn’t really that bad of a guy, but he and Feyre were not right for each other. The brought out the negatives in each other. The rage Rhys and Feyre feel towards him makes sense and I support it. But from the outside looking in, Tamlin had some hard lessons to learn and he always had good intentions. Was he a selfish asshole at times? Yes. And honestly it made me hate him. But…. It’s a bit smoothed over now. Hatred turned to pity for sure. He’ll be fine…
I agree they bring out the worst in eachother, Feyre is just as selfish and dramatic as tamlin is [i know everyone points at the scene where she comforted that one dying fae, but i feel like thats more of sjm waving a flag trying to point out this ONE moment to prove feyre is selfless when shes hated every moment of taking care of others, and kind of is too bitter and traumatized to care about her sisters and father on a emotional level.]
There's a moment in the third book during the war that he makes a particular decision (I'm trying not to spoil, haha) and that was when I went from hating his character to hoping for redemption. He made a lot of crappy choices through the series, but that one thing he does made me see him in a different, slightly sympathetic light. I agree with your analysis.
I so agree with this! I feel bad for Tamlin in alot of ways. He has issues, and is a poor leader but I think if Nesta deserves a redemption arc (which I loved!) he absolutely does too. I don't think he's a malicious character and I hope we get to see his journey in conquering his demons
This still confuses me because he is seen as an amazing leader in the 1st book. His sentries worship him and the ppl of the land adore him. He also seems to be the only lord that solved poverty in his court. So for book 2 and 3 to now portray him as a horrible leader felt like a recon to me.
@pianoman3255 I never really saw him as a great leader in the first book- he was more a great warrior/hunter imo. As a leader he was always waiting around it seemed like, and wasn't good at strategy or strategic relationships. This made sense because he never wanted to be a high lord anyway, and it was a heavy burden on him. I do think his story line got sloppy in the 2nd and 3rd books. He's not a one dimensional character and I don't like how he's vilified while other characters are not. My heart was broken for him at the end of ACOTAR when I sensed where the story was going. He saw Rhys abuse Feyre for months under the mountain (even if it was an act), that would be so messed up to see your fiance choose someone that did that when you did so much for her and her family. Feyre was right to leave Tamlin, but I think she could have more sympathy for Tamlin given the complexities of the whole situation and the fact that he was also traumatized
I’ve never read the book, but I’ve heard of what Tamlin and Ricy Sand are like. Rice and Chicken is that traditional bad boy troupe of all his bad antics can be looked away because stupid hot. Tamlin strikes me as more of a guy who is just doing his best with the little knowledge he has. Honestly, characters like Tamlin are the most interesting. If you want some examples of this I recommend Gutts from Berserk, Thorfinn from Vinland Saga and any focal protagonist from the Stormlight Archives. I see that Tamlin had to/has to earn his place, Rice-on-White (no, I won’t say his name correctly) is just given it. Plus, added Rice is also fortold to be the true king of this world - because of course he is. Honest opinion, I think it would be more interesting to see Rhino and his court go mad with power and Tamlin being the last line in the sand.
I don’t understand why people don’t think he would deserve redemption after book three. Honestly y’all just wanna be hateful towards a male who made a mistake at holding someone back and being jealous because of love.
Girl I am like 2 mins in your vid and lord ur so brave for posting this. I have a 45 minute voice memo of me talking about tamlin and how I understand him and it’s just 45 mins of me psychoanalyzing him. Putting yourself in his shoes immediately makes you see why he was the way he was. It’s heart breaking he def deserves a redemption arc. Like he needs help and support… just never in a million years should it come from feyre. Like she did not deserve the way he treated her at all and he didn’t need her either like she could do nothing for him emotionally and vise versa. Just over all a terrible match LMFAOOO but he still deserves a chance to be better imo
Dropped the series after the first book bc I couldn’t believe this shit escalated like this. Nevertheless I still like tamlin smh ,like why everyone acts like all the other characters aren’t also assholes
dropped it after book 1 until he gets a redemption arc too. I hate how the other characters are written to look better when they did the same mistakes but tamlin gets shit on just bc we have a shit narrator
People also forget there is no capital or castle/palace in the spring court. No central area of politics. Plus he has been under amaranths influence for the past 100 years
I deeply hope we will get a redemption arc for him in his pov, would be quite satisfying. What I was missing in the third book was the fact that he and Feyre didn't talk about what was happened between them. I mean, they don't need to become friends in the future, but both of them should have explained their own behavior and apologize for it. It left me a bit sad when this didn't happen and Feyre only wrote a short letter where she wished him to get happy, too. At least she could have thanked him for saving Rhys life, saving hers and Arziels lives when they needed to escape the king and joining their army in the end. I really hope when he get his redemption arc that this will at least shortly include Rhys and Feyre or at least one of them to have a descent conversation of the past and that all of them make piece with each other and get over everything bad that happened. If we don't get a scene where they talk to each other, at least it should get suggested. My wish would be that he realises what went wrong and that he needs to fix some things and what he has to change about himself for the better, on his own. I know about the Briar-theory, that she could be his soulmate (the girl who got saved by Azriel). This would be interesting, but since she's human, I hope there won't be too many similarities between his former bond with Feyre in book 1.
Actually Tamlin AND his brothers figured out he was the strongest of all the brothers (and would most likely be heir anyway) and that's when they DID go after him and kept trying to kill him and he had to done that for years until Rhys's father killed them with the rest of his family.
SPOILER ALERT: This is just a theory, but what if Tamlin has a mate? What if all this rage and confusion is tied to his mate somehow? After happenings in recent books and an unexpected crossover, what if Tamlin's mate was somewhere far away and he just never knew? Feyre became transformed, thus solidifying the mating bond. I wonder if Tamlin's mate is somewhere waiting for him??
OMG, thank you!!! Since I've started the ACOTAR series, I've BEEN saying this!!! It's like fans love to hate Tamlin for being naïve or ill-prepared!! Yes, being controlling and having anger issues is a bad thing - we all can agree on that. These Rhysland "Stans" though ... Rhys was also CONTROLLING, MANIPULATIVE and suffers from the occasional angry outbursts!! Why are his faults overlooked? It's like, "yeah I do bad things and try to control EVERYTHING, but it for a good reason." So many overlook the horrible things Rhys has done and dismiss as him simply being misunderstood. People are quick to overlook all Tamlin does by the end of ACOWAR though. I'd say he was redeemed, but yet - folks still LOVE to have on him!! Never mind all that he's ultimately lost to Rhysland and The Night Court (his parents, his siblings, Feyre and even Lucien)!! And that's not counting what Feyre did to his court, from the inside. MOST of us wouldn't be in the best of moods under those circumstances!!
I am so tempted [I had this idea with a friend of mine] to create a character from another political party or of different race, that calls Tamlin out, navigate himself out, help him relearn developing relationships, whilst also dealing with their own demons. Enemies > team"mates" > ???
If youre interested in this kind of storyline, I'm working on something just like this on inkitt! "A Court of Crimson & Clover" I'll stop pestering in this comment section now lol
i agree with most of what you’re saying. but you mention a couple of times that rhysand is “really good at ruling his court” and i must say i heavily disagree. most of his policies are generally just to literally ignore everything that’s going wrong in his court outside of velaris. all of the monsters in the court of nightmares are just free to roam around and do whatever damage they want without repercussions. the illyrian camps are incredibly mysoginistic and yes rhys says he wants to combat that, but he affects mostly nothing. and don’t even get me started on how the image he’s created ruins a lot of his chances at diplomacy (that’s literally most of book 2). honestly world building just isn’t sara j maas’ strong suit, i think prythian could be really interesting, but most of it falls apart if you think about the politics and systems for more than a second. most of it exists only to elevate the main characters
Yeah, you said what some of us have been thinking like spot on, thank you! Also, I have a budding Tamlin redemption arc fan fic on inkitt if anyone is interested lol. "A Court of Crimson & Clover" if you wanna support an aspiring writer/general sea urchin
Tamlin went through trauma too. He was going through it just as Ferye was. His way of facing it was to be overprotective. Edward Cullen was like that too. He unhooked Bellas car so she couldn’t go see Jacob. Yet everyone still loved Edward. It’s not fair to hate him so much, Ferye didn’t even hate him when she left. So it’s too much hate once he tries to “save” her from Rhys. He didn’t know.
I think he's such a misunderstood character. Trying to shove him into the toxic masculinity box is pretty unfair. It only requires basic psychology to understand why Tamlin handled things the way he did, and with that being said, I'm not here to insist that Feyre should've stayed with Tamlin. And that's exactly my point; It was ok for them not to work out, but what bothers me is how Tamlin's struggle were completely ignored and we purely focused on Feyre's PTSD. Tamlin was broke too...he struggled with nightmares and paranoia, but was expected to fix her and be the perfect partner. Rhys helped her by talking and opening up, but to be completely honest IRL men really struggle to express their feelings, especially when they're suffering mentally, that's why to me, Tamlin seems to be more of a realistic representation, whereas Rhy is what women would like men to be. As a military wife who's husband suffered with PTSD it really broke my heart how Tamlin was portrayed and vilified, in order to make Rhy look good.
as someone who was traumatized from surveillance and being told that I couldn't defend myself I even had to get physical to prove I could take of myself and my abusers still had a collar on me ill have you know abusers don't redeem themselves my mom who is the reason my abuse happened keeps saying that I should forgive them after strapping me down calling the cops on me, in fact, the other people made fun of me because books were my coping mechanism going into how women aren't allowed to like anything which got me slowly depressed with all the abuse I suffered she cant tell the difference from good and bad making examples of forgiving her abusive father and saying its strong that's the opposite of strong see were im going with this my mother passed down the abuse the same way tamlin pased to abuse to feyre and then feyre passed the abuse to nesta
Hi Emily, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I can only imagine how hard that must've been and especially now with your mother. Just know that you don't owe anyone anything. This very notably includes an apology for the people who've abused you. It's not your job to make their lives more palatable for them. 'No' is a full sentence, you don't owe anyone an explanation/apology etc. and enjoy the things that give you joy. You're right that people will make fun or look down on others, most notably women, for liking certain things. We'll never make everyone happy and making ourselves happy is the most important thing💪 And you're right that abusers often don't redeem themselves. A 'redemption arc' might not be the right booktrope to cover what I meant to say in the video. Especially since it also implies forgiveness from the characters they've hurt. And that's not at all what I meant. Feyre, Lucien and anyone else Tamlin abused don't owe him any forgiveness. If they never want to speak to him or be in his vicinity then they are completely in their right. He hurt them immensely and just because he possibly might work on his trauma doesn't mean they have to forgive him. Sarah has given in the past few books crumbs of Tamlin that showcase that he's remorseful of what he has done. This to my signals that he's open to working on himself and recognize the abuse that he's inflicted and the consequences of his actions of which the spring court is suffering right now. So it's a 'yes' from me for him to possibly work on his trauma (and therefore stop his abusive behaviour/generational trauma) and a 'no' from me for people suddenly forgiving him and/or acting like nothing happened.
So I'm assuming you hate Rhys too then. Because he actually sexually, physically, mentally, and emotionally abused her. Multiple times over the course of all 5 books. Tamlin made amends, helped them in the war, and saved their lives. 7 characters would be dead if not for Tamlin.
After everything, he is the one who is still suffering the most out of everyone. He has lost everything and everyone. While I say it, I agree he shouldn't have done what he did but in the same, he was also suffering with his own trauma and from what I have read he embodies you're a typical man who doesn't know or want to show any form of emotion = weakness.
People casually disregard the fact Rhysand uses under the mountain, while feyre is vulnerable and in love with someone else, as an excuse to live out his sexual fantasies and revenge fantasies with her. Feyre is an annoying character and I honestly couldn't care if she died. I kept reading just for glimpses of Lucien lol
I'm on the first book & stupidly looked up how the series ends. I don't even want to read anymore, I'm so upset about Tamlin & Feyre. Is the rest of the series even worth it?!
I am rooting for Tamlin. He clearly has PTSD. He hasn't been able to deal with it. He was forced into a High Lord position that he never wanted. I think if he were able to heal, he can be saved. I don't agree with his actions. I am disappointed in him. But i don't hate him. And he 100% deserves a redemption arc.
not a hardcore tamlin hater but i don't think he deserves a redemption arc either. Imo, it doesnt matter he was traumatized, it doesnt matter what his thoughts or intentions were, he still did TERRIBLE things. There are a lot of terrorists and murderers irl who think they are doing smtg bad for the better good or that victimize themselves to make other people try to sympatize with them and i don't think it's excusable. *From here spoilers, read at your own risk* For me this also applies to Nesta and Elain. I dont care how traumatized they were, they'd rather send their little sister to death while she tried to get them food everyday instead of helping her. Nesta even made her feel inferior for not being able to read, i dont believe that "i didnt know you knew so little" stuff they tried to do in acosf. And Nesta ALWAYS put Elain above her for.... no absolute reason?? And before they were even in the cabin, nesta also treated feyre badly because of *cheks note* her mother?? People who treat their loved ones like that ARE ABSOLUTE TRASH. Even their father! He appeared with a boat in the final battle and suddenly he wins best dad award for naming boats after his daughters whom he also abandoned? Back to tamlin, if Tampon didnt give the information about rhys's mother and sister freely, then why didnt he AT LEAST try to warn his friend so that he could stop his family from travelling? WHY DID HE KILL THEM WITH HIS DAD AND BROTHERS??? Also, Tamlin had a friend when he was growing up, a friend who taught him kindness and fighting, aka RHYSAND. And in return he kills his family? wtfff. And not to talk about all the shit that he then did to feyre AND LUCIEN, his supposedly "only trusted friend" who saved the girl he loved when tam just gave up???? so he wanted a last fuck instead of trying to save/help her???? And then everything after that omg, girl was just freed from jail soooo, you jail her? I think there are no black and white characters and that the readers definetly pick and choose what's acceptable, even with feyre and rhys, they are not amazing people who are misunderstood and did no wrong, it sometimes feels like the fandom also tries to put rhys and feyre on a pedestal and it makes me reallyyy unconfortable. For example claire, feyre destroying spring in acowar, stealing the summer court when THAT was the highlord who just needed a friend, the death pact at the end of acowar, rhys during acosf... But TLDR, tamlin deserves hate but not THAT much, feyre's family was given a free pass too easily and feysand have also done questionable choices that shouldnt be put under the rug that quickly
The way Nesta is dealt with is near-incomprehensible. She literally admits she was shitty person "because I knew you (Feyre) could take it" and that is never addressed...like what a terrible thing that is.
The way Nesta is dealt with is near-incomprehensible. She literally admits she was shitty person "because I knew you (Feyre) could take it" and that is never addressed...like what a terrible thing that is.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we never actually got conformation that Tamlin actually... join his family. Also, er... we never get to see Tamlin's perspective in this, either. All we get is the perspective of a manipulative sexual abuser (Rhysand) who has already proven to be straight up lying about the things Tamlin does (i.e. Rhysand's lies about Tamlin sitting on his ass while Aramantha is doing, ignoring the fact that he, canonically, was doing a *shit* ton to challenge Aramatha). Also, if you're referencing Tamlin not spiriting Feyre away from under the mountain as him not helping her, "want[ing] a last fuck," I'm not sure how to tell you this but... there was literally nothing he could do? You don't get to decide who and who doesn't deserve a redemption arc. In fact, I'd argue he already got it, and the narrative just hasn't caught up with it, yet.
I agree with the "no matter what his thoughts or intentions were, he still did terrible things" and that's why I don't hate Tamlin as much as I love Rhys. To me the problem is neither of the characters, is how the author sugar coats Rhys actions and puts a narrative to make Rhys look better when there was absolutely no need of that. He was a good character on his own. Also, it seems like she kinf of undermines the mental abuse and puts the physical abuse in a complete different level. Why is that Feyra doesn't have much of a problem with someone who sexually assaulted and humiliated her ? she still didn't know about Rhys intentions so how is that she doesn't habe much of a problem with Rhys but with Tamlin who has always treated her well until that moment when he looses it, the author describes it as the worst thing but to Rhys is ok because he had good intentions? , the problem is not that Feyra reacted like that to Tamlin, I think is a normal response to violence but it doesn't make sense when she just accepts Rhys so quickly like, oh every thing he did under the mountain is forgiven because he was forced (?) . Tmlin clearly has PTSD so is not like he was completely conscious of his actions. And he, unlike Feyra, doesn't have a support system that helps him heal. I also am kind of confused of where this hate comes from , it would be understandable if we only had the 2 first books but Tamlin already redeemed himself in ACOWAR, he saved Feyra and her sister twice and then brought his little army with an ally that I don't remember the name and then saved Rhy's life.. in exchange of nothing , he even wished Feyra to be happy. isn't that redemption enough? I don't want to diminish how he acted with Feyra in ACOMAF but he didn't do enough bad to be hated so much, it was mostly how the author described everything . I definitely think this story could have been written with the same events but a different narrative because otherwise is double standards.
We need more Tamlin. I feel like there was so much potential for his character.
Let's also not forget that when it comes to being high lord, Tamlin was never supposed to be one......hence why he was never taught those things, he probably had to learn everything via books and texts and stories of previous high lords and had to perceive the rights and wrongs all by himself, which would have been somewhat ok had his father not been toxic, so Tamlin from the very beginning wasn't always clear on what's the normal way of things (Like dude literally had to hide his skills with the fear of being killed by his own families).
Often times I have seen people talk about how Tamlin never empowered Feyre, even said that she would never be high lady, while Rhys was such an amazing guy for he saw Feyre as his equal.....but I definitely never am able to see Tamlin from Acotar belittling Feyre (like girl literally got killed saving the whole of Prythien). What I think happened was that he was scared, scared of loosing her again, scared that she will again put herself in harms way for him or court and understandably that was the last thing wanted.....and as for Feyre being the high lady, well I think he genuinely didn't know that it was possible, cause as I said he learned everything via books, so all his knowledge is bookish hence why it often times seems that he has no explanation as to why he thinks a certain path is the correct one to take (As I said he had to rights and wrongs all by himself with no guidance). Kind of like imagine if a child grew up learning morals from the books of a poet from way back then.....he isn't going to be considered very wise nowadays, as his mindset will not be as open minded as todays youths, because he learned everything from a book from a time when that kind of mindset was normal.
It's also mentioned that Feyre felt suffocated in the Spring court after the battle under the mountains, because Tamlin was all like: "Let's get married everything will be fine then" instead of letting her process the trauma....but to me it rather felt like that's all he knew, he never got time to process trauma so he just adapted himself with the whole "start to quickly do good and happy things, start to quickly move on and pretend it never happend and all will be good" mindset, getting married/fixing the court/going back to normal life was his way of picking up the pieces and fixing things, his way of coping.....and perhaps all Feyre had to do was communicate, which she never did, she never understood him.
Tamlin's character was never meant to be toxic, and that's why when he became the villain further on in the series, it honestly felt like his whole character dynamics had changed.
Super interesting take🤔
I personally don't agree when it comes to feyre though. I think tamlin really did see her as less than him. And I'm also sure he saw how bad she was doing after they came back from under the mountain. He just didn't want to acknowledge it. And I reckon it's because if what you mentioned. It's how he's been dealing with trauma. To put it away and never acknowledge it again. It just doesn't mean he can put away feyre's trauma and never acknowledge it.
Wether SJM meant for tamlin to be as much of an antagonist as he became or not is something only she can really answer. What is important to acknowledge is that a lot of abusers do seem like the loving and caring partner when you get into a relationship with them. They don't start out as the villains.
But yeah, when it comes to Tamlin, it's like you said about him never having learned anything about being a high lord and dealing with trauma. Let's hope a really good therapist shows up...
@@WanderingManon Your take is also very interesting.....Yes let's really hope a good therapist shows up, because I also agree that putting away your own trauma is one thing, putting away someone else's is different......I think that's what he feels is right, because let's be real boy never really had human interactions that would teach him the actual Rights and Wrongs......I think he saw Feyre as less than him because his only knowledge in relations has been in hierarchies, "one sits at the top, other at the bottom" that's ALL he knew about his position as a high lord......He treated Lucien the same even tho Tamlin considered him a friend, but whenever anything serious happened he went into High Lord mode. I'm saying this because in the first book before shit hit the fans, he was often teased by Lucien, and was also shown attitude, but he never really brought out the "I'm your high lord" key until the second book when things went downhill for him.
I think we should also not disregard Ianthes influence on him. After all his background and all the trauma he inevitably went through with Amarantha and the curse, which happened due to him explicitly NOT DOING what he was expected to do, but to follow his INSTINCTS, and the additional trauma of seeing Feyre die, there is suddenly this person, whom he was taught to respect by status, who had much more experience than him, who offered him guidance and fed him how he should rule. What his people needed. She's manipulative as shit and he's clearly vulnerable. She sees exactly which buttons to push on him to basically assume his power, but she also knows that Feyre is a threat to her. That Feyre and Tamlin developing a good relationship could see both of them healing - and thus escaping her control. Inathe did everything in her power to prevent that.
Tamlins blind jealousy is part of his insecurity. He trusts Lucien - yet he's TERRIFIED at the possibility of Lucien and Feyre being a thing. Ianthe also feeds into these insecurities.
I don't think Tamlin is a bad person - his friendship with Rhys is an indicator of that, a lot of his early life seems to be. I think he's really struggling to break through the boundaries and toxic behaviours he was taught and has since internalised, alongside a lot of trauma. I think a redemption arc could turn out VERY interesting. I think there is a lot to be explored, even within YA Romantasy territory.
yes!!!!!
Okay, but there's still no such thing as "being a high lady." Feyre is not a high lady in actuality: it's an empty title that Rhysand gave her and which Rhysand can take away. It's ceremonial, and even then Feyre doesn't *do* anything as a high lady--and I can't blame her, nor can I blame Tamlin for not giving her authority within his court. Feyre, lets not mince words, is an illiterate teenager with *zero* understanding of how the Spring Court functions. I'm sorry, I don't care who she is, what she does, how powerful she can be, she has literally zero qualifications for being a "high lady." Tamlin wasn't raised into the role, either, but he still grew up in the position and he had literal centuries to learn how to do it.
The "let's get married, everything will be fine," is taken way out of context. Tamlin is a king in all but name, King of the Spring Court. Feyre is not the centre of his universe: he has a kingdom to run, to rebuild. That takes time and energy, especially in the years proceeding the downfall of Aramantha. Yes, it was a highly stressful time, and yes he (and Feyre) could've processed their trauma better, but getting married even if you don't want to is quite literally just what nobility does. Everyone's too busy with this girlboss mentality of how noble life worked way back when, but within the culture of a pre-modern feudal society (which the Spring Court *is*), Tamlin and Feyre's wedding would have been just as much an important political move as any other in bringing stability and hope for the future to the realm. Their issues can wait: people are suffering.
It doesn't matter if fixing the court is a coping mechanism. It's literally his job and people will die if he doesn't do this very important work that Feyre cannot help with because she is (to be very unkind for the absolute monstrous and vile act of *destabalising an entire realm via mindrape and getting so many innocent people murdered over her grudge against her ex*) a stupid, impulsive little girl with zero political training, zero ability to read, zero understanding of the culture and society she now lives in, and, hey! wasting away into nothing, which makes bringing her out into border conflicts incredibly dangerous! Tamlin didn't leave her without a guard, not just because of trauma, but because she has zero combat ability, zero sense of self-preservation (acotar showed how reckless she can be), and actively weak because of her current inability to eat.
I simp for Tamlin all day and night! The author did him dirty. Feyre and Rhysand bug me 😑
Yesss Tamlin was a sweet guy, I hate what they did to his character. Also Rhys bugged be from the moment he called Feyre his belongings and made her walk out half naked.
I found my people 😭 I’ve tried explaining to my best friend why I have such a soft spot for tamlin and always end up crying when he shows up but she doesn’t understand because she hates him so much beyond reason. I feel so happy because I definitely think his character is something that should be talked about more instead of being villainized nearly as much as Amarantha herself
They're weak minded people. They just go with what the mob tells them to feel.
Same
Same. I hear more hate to tamlim than amarantha
his character assassination was crazy and honestly wished his character was dealt with better instead of villainized and tossed to the side, deserves a redemption arc or something.
@@luvraion The crazy thing is that ACOWAR was his entire redemption story, and people still twist every heroic thing he does in it to STILL say he's bad when nothing he does in ACOWAR is bad! But I'm glad we (most likely) met his future mate, and that there is hope for a future book for him to heal and find her...since she is staying in the Winter Court atm
Tamlin deserves healing and redemption, because he did unquestionably bad things, but it came from pain and trauma, and in *this* series, toxic behavior isn’t a deal breaker or something you can never come back from. Just look at Rhys in the first book (and even somewhat in later books) being toxic and still being praised. Tamlin went through some shit, started portraying unhealthy coping mechanisms, and in the end began to try and make it right, but he’s still treated as an evil person by some fans.
i'm a hard team rhysand stan, he has his yikes moments for sure (acosf, I'm looking at you) but i can't quit him.
that being said, i HATED how easy it was for feyre to completely destroy the spring court. i 100% understand her blind anger, if someone had hurt and betrayed MY mate the way tamlin did with rhysand, i'd be out for blood as well. but she completely lost all rationale. girl spent MONTHS at the spring court getting to know tamlin, seeing how he interacted with his people, how good he was to lucien, to her, to her family. he wasn't perfect, he's definitely the very definition of a flawed hero but he TRIED. his heart was always in the right place and it's why she fell in love with him in the first place. and then it was just so fucking easy to completely break him and not even feel remorse. she didn't even CONSIDER that he could've been playing both sides with hybern, it was so easy for her to write him off as a bad person. I would've understood her toppling the spring court if at ANY point in the 2nd OR 3rd book she showed even just the slightest bit of remorse for her actions but if anything like that came up, it fell completely flat in a 1 off sentence. i was genuinely mad at feyre that she didn't bother visiting tamlin after the war with hybern just ONCE, for closure and to thank him personally for his sacrifice. if she wasn't going to apologize, to at least thank him IN PERSON.
and don't get me started on rhys showing up at spring just to twist the knife. i'm very conflicted about the scene, their personal history definitely warrants rhysand's hatred towards tamlin and i understand that he would want to see him suffer. but the guy SAVED HIS LIFE. he saved his MATE and gave them both a 2nd chance to live happily ever after. tamlin sacrificed himself and his reputation over and over for feyre and at least THAT should've been enough for rhys to at least bite his tongue when he saw how horribly fragile tamlin had become.
when tamlin showed up at hybern's camp and let himself be mauled so that feyre could live, my heart hurt for him. like i said, i'm team rhysand all the way, but tamlin deserved to have his pain seen.
I love the character of Tamlin. I feel like blindly hating him is immature and I can actually understand his actions
100% some people are so stupid and gullible to fall for just Feyre's petty thoughts
Yessss queen. Finally someone with sense and not naive f*cking blindness.
He almost killed Feyre…TWICE
@Yael um no. The first time she was fine but shaken. The second time it was her plan to get his magic to blow up and wanted it to harm her so she could turn his people against him. But nice try.
@@booksnwriting my love, just because she happened to be able to shield herself doesn’t take away the fact that Tamlin blew up the study. She was able to use her words to get him to a point of anger where he almost killed her again. Now, we KNOW he is able to control his temper because we see him hold it in around people who are stronger than him. He simply was abusive. Was Feyre right to take advantage of that fact? Absolutely not. But regardless Tamlin again and again only thought about himself and what he wanted. Okay byeeee
Agree with what you said ! 👌Tamlin had and still has no support system, hence all of his actions ! People really need to try to put themselves in his shoes for some time...
Thanks :) I think the no support system is really one of the main things that doesn't give him the right mind space to make the best decisions for others, his court or himself.
@@WanderingManon absolutely ! this is exactly what he needs right now, I hope SJM will give it to him because he already started his redemption arc in book 3 to me, with the Rhysand revival and Feyre being saved by him in the Hybern camp, like he shows he's not evil at all deep inside !! He has a good heart in my opinion 💚 it's just his mind is unhealthy and he needs help to fix it ! We all deserve that !
I also would be v interested to see how some form of therapy would go for him. If after that he still decudes to go back to his toxic behaviour then I'm all here for the tamlin hating train ✊️
I think he was already redeemed in acowar when he saved all their lives (and dragged beron to the war). I didn't like when Rhys got wind that he was suicidal then purposely went there and told him to rot. I was so glad Lucien yelled at him for that. But I do think he needs healing and he needs people who won't leave him when shit gets hard and he gets frustrated bc he's NEVER had anyone care about him or anything about him.
Also, I'm 100% convinced that Briar is his mate and she can really help him believe that he deserves love and healing
Who is Briar? There’s very little on the fandom wiki.
@Boss Umbra she's the woman that Jurian, Feyre and Tamlin rescued from the Hybern camp. SJM named her which has a significance to characters who will be back (like she didn't even name Luciens brothers). Her name translates to thorny rosebush and the new, powerful wind power that Tamlin sent to her and Feyre ti get away screamed mate bond to me because it mirrored Lucien accidentally spellcleaving to get to Elain!
Oooookkkkk, not gonna pretend what that means, but something in my gut tells me SJM isn’t that talented as a writer to write Tamlin being redeemed because that might make him into more of an interesting character - more than her Rice-Boy. I have a theory she’ll just keep him there and miserable.
I mean, if she can’t have Fey give him her Dear John in person, than I don’t think she’ll do anything else with him.
@Boss Umbra What are you talking about? Him singlehandedly saving seven people that dislike him in acowar WAS his redemption LOL. And you don't need to forgive or forget to move on. She's proved that with Azriel and Nesta and Feyre and even Lucien. Why would he be shackled to Feyre forever? Ick. She literally got half his court killed and the rest had to flee. And it's actually gross that she brushed off her guilt for it. If anything she should be sending people to help rebuild Spring if she's too weak to face him herself even after she already forgave him like three times and did send him an "I wish you have happiness too" letter.
@Boss Umbra Also SJM doesn't keep any of her characters in perpetual torment. She always says there's potential for better for them all and she has claimed she isn't quite done with Tamlin yet. Even if she doesn't like him, he's still her character that she created. She can fix his suicidal tendencies and let him move on too
I've seen comments on other videos that they think that SJM based Tamlin off of a partner she had at the time (writing book 1). Which is why he is this knight in shining armor that Feyre falls in love with. Because of this when they broke up SJM decided to trash his character (Tamlin) in order to deal with the breakup. Which makes sense to me since it felt like she only brought back Rhysand all of a sudden and turned him into the new love interest and hero since SJM was not able to view Tamlin as anything other than a "bad guy." I don't think Tamlin is the worst since Rhysand has also done bad things to Feyre as well. Like I don't understand all of the hate Tamlin gets since Rhysand bugs me more than him. And honestly Feyre became bland and uninteresting in book 2 when she finds out about being mates with Rhysand since SJM made that her whole entire personality.
Makes sense, given that she instantly made Feyre pregnant after she herself got pregnant.
To me it was obvious that she was always planning on making Rhys her mate. You could tell by the way she wrote about him in book 1. So I don’t think she did a full 180 with Tamlin because her boyfriend in real life dumped her. I think she was always planning on ending Feyra’s and Tamlin’s relationship.
@@Kennylovessandwiches I don't really see it this way, I think she did plan a love triangle but with Tamlin as the clear endgame, after all love triangles were (still are I think?) a hot thing in YA fantasy/paranormal books.
I don't know if Tamlin was really based off her ex boyfriend, but I do think that at some point and for some reason she started liking Rhys more than Tamlin, and went with that instead of with what actually made sense narrative wise, because while Tamlin's actions can be explained in-universe, it still feels like character derailment for the sole purpose to prop Rhys up.
i always want happiness for tamlin
I feel like too that Tamlin does do alot of harm to feyre, but that alot of it benefits her in the end. Her sisters become immortal, she finds rhysand, she becomes high lady of the night court, alot of things happen because of tamlins actions and feyre kind of thanks him for that, but still he's seen as the WORST by every character we meet. His chemistry if you want to go there with feyre also feels bland but like, he tries in ACOTAR. She loves painting? why not give her a art studio! She loves swimming in starlight, drinking faerie wine? lets do that more. He and her do things together outside of war and surviving, is it great? no, but it's kind of nice to know he does activites with her to connect better, and they connect on their personal burdens from the jump start.
BUT I feel like Tamlins actions can be explained and sort of not wiped away, but not really but kind of forgiven considering how much it helps the others. AND ontop of that, Tamlin does shitty things yeah, should he be forgiven? not really, but Rhysand ALSO does alot of fucked up shit that nO ONE EVER calls him out on. None of the court tell him he's in the wrong, FEYRE doesn't even once yell at him. Rhysand hid from her the fact he knew she was going to die, and he got off scott free from it. Rhysand drugs and jokes about sa-ing Feyre, he gets a 19 year old to dress in something shes clearly uncomfortable with, does it again, and parades her around like shes an object, a prize he won.
If Rhysand is redeemable I think Tamlin is even more so.
Tamlin didn't have a part in Feyre's sisters becoming faeries, though? That was all the priestess bitch, and being betrayed by Hybern. He was the only one who tried to stop Feyre's sisters becoming faeries. Finding Rhysand is... I wouldn't describe that as a benefit. Rhysand is a manipulative, possessive, sexual abuser who is just as cruel as he pretends to be, and his act of making Feyre into High Lady is literally... an empty gesture. She gets no power other than that which Rhysand gives her. She's a glorified consort to the High Lord, and doesn't really do anything with her power.
Yes!
This is the video I was searching for. I think there is a lot to be said for Tamlin and he didn’t have any support system. I wish, I really wish Tamlin was given more time and the help he needed and then see where it goes.
Thank you for this
I love him so much. But he's been literally targeted since he was a little kid. If he wasn't being groomed by Amarantha, he was being hunted by his brothers
It took a couple readings for me to get here, but I'm not in the Tamlin hate camp, either. So much of ACOMAF was focused on Feyre's trauma response and recovery that his is ignored. We can't forget, be also watched the woman he loved die when he couldn't do a damn thing to save her. We don't know what his nightmares were, just that he had them. MAF is only a couple months after under the mountain; how much is he pushing down during the day to set a strong leadership example? And Lucien states outright that Tamlin is a protector. I believe that Tam truly thought he was doing what was best by Feyre, not realizing that what he needed to move on from the trauma was in opposition to what she needed. It blinded him so much that he couldn't see what it was doing to her, hear her when she stated outright what she wanted/needed. In WAR, he lashed out at her and Rhys during the High Lord's meeting because he was hurting-- he'd done everything he thought he should and Feyre not only threw it back in his face, she destroyed his court in the process. Her info from that time poisoned the other High Lords against him. Then, he had to watch the woman he loves weep over another man, only for that man to come and drive the knife in further. The news of the pregnancy was likely the final straw.
None of that excuses him from holding Feyre prisoner. Or ignoring her explicitly stated "I left you" letter. Or making an alliance that resulted in her sisters being violated. But I can't hate him for hurting over his broken heart.
I'm going there's a book after ACOSF that shows someone helping Tamlin rebuild. Tarquin seemed willing, I hope Tamlin can accept the offered help
I found my people haha. I’ve have literally written paragraphs to my friends on how I think tamlin is done wrong and so misunderstood.
I think his father threatened his mother so Tamlin would give up the location :( because he said she was the only one who cared about him even from the sidelines
Yes! Thank you! I always thought Tamlin was a beautifully written character. Definitely one of the most poignant and compelling characters in the entire series because he's so dynamic; not personality wise maybe, but his character and actions change with whatever is going on/happening to him, which is way more realistic than some of the other characters who stay pretty much the same despite the circumstances.
Tamlin isn’t really that bad of a guy, but he and Feyre were not right for each other. The brought out the negatives in each other. The rage Rhys and Feyre feel towards him makes sense and I support it. But from the outside looking in, Tamlin had some hard lessons to learn and he always had good intentions. Was he a selfish asshole at times? Yes. And honestly it made me hate him. But…. It’s a bit smoothed over now. Hatred turned to pity for sure. He’ll be fine…
I agree they bring out the worst in eachother, Feyre is just as selfish and dramatic as tamlin is [i know everyone points at the scene where she comforted that one dying fae, but i feel like thats more of sjm waving a flag trying to point out this ONE moment to prove feyre is selfless when shes hated every moment of taking care of others, and kind of is too bitter and traumatized to care about her sisters and father on a emotional level.]
There's a moment in the third book during the war that he makes a particular decision (I'm trying not to spoil, haha) and that was when I went from hating his character to hoping for redemption. He made a lot of crappy choices through the series, but that one thing he does made me see him in a different, slightly sympathetic light.
I agree with your analysis.
I so agree with this! I feel bad for Tamlin in alot of ways. He has issues, and is a poor leader but I think if Nesta deserves a redemption arc (which I loved!) he absolutely does too. I don't think he's a malicious character and I hope we get to see his journey in conquering his demons
This still confuses me because he is seen as an amazing leader in the 1st book. His sentries worship him and the ppl of the land adore him. He also seems to be the only lord that solved poverty in his court. So for book 2 and 3 to now portray him as a horrible leader felt like a recon to me.
@pianoman3255 I never really saw him as a great leader in the first book- he was more a great warrior/hunter imo. As a leader he was always waiting around it seemed like, and wasn't good at strategy or strategic relationships. This made sense because he never wanted to be a high lord anyway, and it was a heavy burden on him. I do think his story line got sloppy in the 2nd and 3rd books. He's not a one dimensional character and I don't like how he's vilified while other characters are not. My heart was broken for him at the end of ACOTAR when I sensed where the story was going. He saw Rhys abuse Feyre for months under the mountain (even if it was an act), that would be so messed up to see your fiance choose someone that did that when you did so much for her and her family. Feyre was right to leave Tamlin, but I think she could have more sympathy for Tamlin given the complexities of the whole situation and the fact that he was also traumatized
I’ve never read the book, but I’ve heard of what Tamlin and Ricy Sand are like. Rice and Chicken is that traditional bad boy troupe of all his bad antics can be looked away because stupid hot. Tamlin strikes me as more of a guy who is just doing his best with the little knowledge he has. Honestly, characters like Tamlin are the most interesting. If you want some examples of this I recommend Gutts from Berserk, Thorfinn from Vinland Saga and any focal protagonist from the Stormlight Archives. I see that Tamlin had to/has to earn his place, Rice-on-White (no, I won’t say his name correctly) is just given it. Plus, added Rice is also fortold to be the true king of this world - because of course he is.
Honest opinion, I think it would be more interesting to see Rhino and his court go mad with power and Tamlin being the last line in the sand.
I don’t understand why people don’t think he would deserve redemption after book three. Honestly y’all just wanna be hateful towards a male who made a mistake at holding someone back and being jealous because of love.
Girl I am like 2 mins in your vid and lord ur so brave for posting this. I have a 45 minute voice memo of me talking about tamlin and how I understand him and it’s just 45 mins of me psychoanalyzing him. Putting yourself in his shoes immediately makes you see why he was the way he was. It’s heart breaking he def deserves a redemption arc. Like he needs help and support… just never in a million years should it come from feyre. Like she did not deserve the way he treated her at all and he didn’t need her either like she could do nothing for him emotionally and vise versa. Just over all a terrible match LMFAOOO but he still deserves a chance to be better imo
Dropped the series after the first book bc I couldn’t believe this shit escalated like this. Nevertheless I still like tamlin smh ,like why everyone acts like all the other characters aren’t also assholes
dropped it after book 1 until he gets a redemption arc too. I hate how the other characters are written to look better when they did the same mistakes but tamlin gets shit on just bc we have a shit narrator
People also forget there is no capital or castle/palace in the spring court. No central area of politics. Plus he has been under amaranths influence for the past 100 years
I deeply hope we will get a redemption arc for him in his pov, would be quite satisfying. What I was missing in the third book was the fact that he and Feyre didn't talk about what was happened between them. I mean, they don't need to become friends in the future, but both of them should have explained their own behavior and apologize for it. It left me a bit sad when this didn't happen and Feyre only wrote a short letter where she wished him to get happy, too. At least she could have thanked him for saving Rhys life, saving hers and Arziels lives when they needed to escape the king and joining their army in the end.
I really hope when he get his redemption arc that this will at least shortly include Rhys and Feyre or at least one of them to have a descent conversation of the past and that all of them make piece with each other and get over everything bad that happened. If we don't get a scene where they talk to each other, at least it should get suggested.
My wish would be that he realises what went wrong and that he needs to fix some things and what he has to change about himself for the better, on his own. I know about the Briar-theory, that she could be his soulmate (the girl who got saved by Azriel). This would be interesting, but since she's human, I hope there won't be too many similarities between his former bond with Feyre in book 1.
I'm a Team Tamlin. He needs therapy.
❤️ same, they all do.
Unpopular opinion, but the only person I really like in this series is Tamlin. And maybe Lucien.
Actually Tamlin AND his brothers figured out he was the strongest of all the brothers (and would most likely be heir anyway) and that's when they DID go after him and kept trying to kill him and he had to done that for years until Rhys's father killed them with the rest of his family.
I haven't seen it from that point of view. These were good arguments. Thank u. Now I need more Tamlin.
SPOILER ALERT: This is just a theory, but what if Tamlin has a mate? What if all this rage and confusion is tied to his mate somehow? After happenings in recent books and an unexpected crossover, what if Tamlin's mate was somewhere far away and he just never knew? Feyre became transformed, thus solidifying the mating bond. I wonder if Tamlin's mate is somewhere waiting for him??
not to repeat everyone else below, but I totally agree.
OMG, thank you!!! Since I've started the ACOTAR series, I've BEEN saying this!!! It's like fans love to hate Tamlin for being naïve or ill-prepared!! Yes, being controlling and having anger issues is a bad thing - we all can agree on that. These Rhysland "Stans" though ... Rhys was also CONTROLLING, MANIPULATIVE and suffers from the occasional angry outbursts!! Why are his faults overlooked? It's like, "yeah I do bad things and try to control EVERYTHING, but it for a good reason." So many overlook the horrible things Rhys has done and dismiss as him simply being misunderstood. People are quick to overlook all Tamlin does by the end of ACOWAR though. I'd say he was redeemed, but yet - folks still LOVE to have on him!! Never mind all that he's ultimately lost to Rhysland and The Night Court (his parents, his siblings, Feyre and even Lucien)!! And that's not counting what Feyre did to his court, from the inside. MOST of us wouldn't be in the best of moods under those circumstances!!
Help some body save Tamlin. He needs help. please, help him find someone to love.
I agree !!
i have a soft spot for tamlin
I am so tempted [I had this idea with a friend of mine] to create a character from another political party or of different race, that calls Tamlin out, navigate himself out, help him relearn developing relationships, whilst also dealing with their own demons.
Enemies > team"mates" > ???
If youre interested in this kind of storyline, I'm working on something just like this on inkitt! "A Court of Crimson & Clover"
I'll stop pestering in this comment section now lol
i agree with most of what you’re saying. but you mention a couple of times that rhysand is “really good at ruling his court” and i must say i heavily disagree. most of his policies are generally just to literally ignore everything that’s going wrong in his court outside of velaris. all of the monsters in the court of nightmares are just free to roam around and do whatever damage they want without repercussions. the illyrian camps are incredibly mysoginistic and yes rhys says he wants to combat that, but he affects mostly nothing. and don’t even get me started on how the image he’s created ruins a lot of his chances at diplomacy (that’s literally most of book 2).
honestly world building just isn’t sara j maas’ strong suit, i think prythian could be really interesting, but most of it falls apart if you think about the politics and systems for more than a second. most of it exists only to elevate the main characters
1000% yes.
Yeah, you said what some of us have been thinking like spot on, thank you! Also, I have a budding Tamlin redemption arc fan fic on inkitt if anyone is interested lol. "A Court of Crimson & Clover" if you wanna support an aspiring writer/general sea urchin
Tamlin went through trauma too. He was going through it just as Ferye was. His way of facing it was to be overprotective.
Edward Cullen was like that too. He unhooked Bellas car so she couldn’t go see Jacob. Yet everyone still loved Edward.
It’s not fair to hate him so much, Ferye didn’t even hate him when she left. So it’s too much hate once he tries to “save” her from Rhys. He didn’t know.
I also liked Tamlin. I hope SJM gives his character HEA
I think he's such a misunderstood character. Trying to shove him into the toxic masculinity box is pretty unfair. It only requires basic psychology to understand why Tamlin handled things the way he did, and with that being said, I'm not here to insist that Feyre should've stayed with Tamlin. And that's exactly my point; It was ok for them not to work out, but what bothers me is how Tamlin's struggle were completely ignored and we purely focused on Feyre's PTSD. Tamlin was broke too...he struggled with nightmares and paranoia, but was expected to fix her and be the perfect partner. Rhys helped her by talking and opening up, but to be completely honest IRL men really struggle to express their feelings, especially when they're suffering mentally, that's why to me, Tamlin seems to be more of a realistic representation, whereas Rhy is what women would like men to be. As a military wife who's husband suffered with PTSD it really broke my heart how Tamlin was portrayed and vilified, in order to make Rhy look good.
Oh I just have to sit and watch this whole video at some point, I used to go with the hate bandwagon but honestly he's pretty redeemable idc idc
as someone who was traumatized from surveillance and being told that I couldn't defend myself I even had to get physical to prove I could take of myself and my abusers still had a collar on me ill have you know abusers don't redeem themselves my mom who is the reason my abuse happened keeps saying that I should forgive them after strapping me down calling the cops on me, in fact, the other people made fun of me because books were my coping mechanism going into how women aren't allowed to like anything which got me slowly depressed with all the abuse I suffered she cant tell the difference from good and bad making examples of forgiving her abusive father and saying its strong that's the opposite of strong see were im going with this my mother passed down the abuse the same way tamlin pased to abuse to feyre and then feyre passed the abuse to nesta
Hi Emily,
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I can only imagine how hard that must've been and especially now with your mother. Just know that you don't owe anyone anything. This very notably includes an apology for the people who've abused you. It's not your job to make their lives more palatable for them. 'No' is a full sentence, you don't owe anyone an explanation/apology etc. and enjoy the things that give you joy. You're right that people will make fun or look down on others, most notably women, for liking certain things. We'll never make everyone happy and making ourselves happy is the most important thing💪
And you're right that abusers often don't redeem themselves. A 'redemption arc' might not be the right booktrope to cover what I meant to say in the video. Especially since it also implies forgiveness from the characters they've hurt. And that's not at all what I meant. Feyre, Lucien and anyone else Tamlin abused don't owe him any forgiveness. If they never want to speak to him or be in his vicinity then they are completely in their right. He hurt them immensely and just because he possibly might work on his trauma doesn't mean they have to forgive him.
Sarah has given in the past few books crumbs of Tamlin that showcase that he's remorseful of what he has done. This to my signals that he's open to working on himself and recognize the abuse that he's inflicted and the consequences of his actions of which the spring court is suffering right now. So it's a 'yes' from me for him to possibly work on his trauma (and therefore stop his abusive behaviour/generational trauma) and a 'no' from me for people suddenly forgiving him and/or acting like nothing happened.
So I'm assuming you hate Rhys too then. Because he actually sexually, physically, mentally, and emotionally abused her. Multiple times over the course of all 5 books. Tamlin made amends, helped them in the war, and saved their lives. 7 characters would be dead if not for Tamlin.
@@booksnwriting I hate Rice and tampon and besides doing the lap dance for feyres "safety is exactly what tamlin did
After everything, he is the one who is still suffering the most out of everyone. He has lost everything and everyone. While I say it, I agree he shouldn't have done what he did but in the same, he was also suffering with his own trauma and from what I have read he embodies you're a typical man who doesn't know or want to show any form of emotion = weakness.
People casually disregard the fact Rhysand uses under the mountain, while feyre is vulnerable and in love with someone else, as an excuse to live out his sexual fantasies and revenge fantasies with her. Feyre is an annoying character and I honestly couldn't care if she died. I kept reading just for glimpses of Lucien lol
I will say this: whether or not he deserves one, Tamlin will probably GET a redemption arc. He is one of the few loose ends the series has left.
please please do a video on Eris! 😍😍 He's my favorite
Oh, I might actually do that! He could have a very interesting storyline in the future acotar novels
Yes! I love Eris!
I'm on the first book & stupidly looked up how the series ends. I don't even want to read anymore, I'm so upset about Tamlin & Feyre. Is the rest of the series even worth it?!
Same! I just finished book one and hesitant to continue 😭 I love Feyre and tamlin
omg this comment section is full of my people 😻
I am rooting for Tamlin.
He clearly has PTSD. He hasn't been able to deal with it. He was forced into a High Lord position that he never wanted.
I think if he were able to heal, he can be saved.
I don't agree with his actions. I am disappointed in him.
But i don't hate him.
And he 100% deserves a redemption arc.
Why are people so afraid to defend Tamlin? I love him and stand by it. No one can change my mind Fyefoo is psycho.
Tamlin is not a bad guy! Just bad for Fayre!
honestly id argue that rhysand isnt even a good ruler. most powerful high lord ever and cant even enforce a wing clippings ban
I love him, sorry 😂😂😂
MILLIE BOBBIE BROWN AF
not a hardcore tamlin hater but i don't think he deserves a redemption arc either. Imo, it doesnt matter he was traumatized, it doesnt matter what his thoughts or intentions were, he still did TERRIBLE things. There are a lot of terrorists and murderers irl who think they are doing smtg bad for the better good or that victimize themselves to make other people try to sympatize with them and i don't think it's excusable.
*From here spoilers, read at your own risk*
For me this also applies to Nesta and Elain. I dont care how traumatized they were, they'd rather send their little sister to death while she tried to get them food everyday instead of helping her. Nesta even made her feel inferior for not being able to read, i dont believe that "i didnt know you knew so little" stuff they tried to do in acosf. And Nesta ALWAYS put Elain above her for.... no absolute reason?? And before they were even in the cabin, nesta also treated feyre badly because of *cheks note* her mother?? People who treat their loved ones like that ARE ABSOLUTE TRASH. Even their father! He appeared with a boat in the final battle and suddenly he wins best dad award for naming boats after his daughters whom he also abandoned?
Back to tamlin, if Tampon didnt give the information about rhys's mother and sister freely, then why didnt he AT LEAST try to warn his friend so that he could stop his family from travelling? WHY DID HE KILL THEM WITH HIS DAD AND BROTHERS??? Also, Tamlin had a friend when he was growing up, a friend who taught him kindness and fighting, aka RHYSAND. And in return he kills his family? wtfff. And not to talk about all the shit that he then did to feyre AND LUCIEN, his supposedly "only trusted friend" who saved the girl he loved when tam just gave up???? so he wanted a last fuck instead of trying to save/help her???? And then everything after that omg, girl was just freed from jail soooo, you jail her?
I think there are no black and white characters and that the readers definetly pick and choose what's acceptable, even with feyre and rhys, they are not amazing people who are misunderstood and did no wrong, it sometimes feels like the fandom also tries to put rhys and feyre on a pedestal and it makes me reallyyy unconfortable. For example claire, feyre destroying spring in acowar, stealing the summer court when THAT was the highlord who just needed a friend, the death pact at the end of acowar, rhys during acosf...
But TLDR, tamlin deserves hate but not THAT much, feyre's family was given a free pass too easily and feysand have also done questionable choices that shouldnt be put under the rug that quickly
The way Nesta is dealt with is near-incomprehensible. She literally admits she was shitty person "because I knew you (Feyre) could take it" and that is never addressed...like what a terrible thing that is.
The way Nesta is dealt with is near-incomprehensible. She literally admits she was shitty person "because I knew you (Feyre) could take it" and that is never addressed...like what a terrible thing that is.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we never actually got conformation that Tamlin actually... join his family. Also, er... we never get to see Tamlin's perspective in this, either. All we get is the perspective of a manipulative sexual abuser (Rhysand) who has already proven to be straight up lying about the things Tamlin does (i.e. Rhysand's lies about Tamlin sitting on his ass while Aramantha is doing, ignoring the fact that he, canonically, was doing a *shit* ton to challenge Aramatha). Also, if you're referencing Tamlin not spiriting Feyre away from under the mountain as him not helping her, "want[ing] a last fuck," I'm not sure how to tell you this but... there was literally nothing he could do?
You don't get to decide who and who doesn't deserve a redemption arc. In fact, I'd argue he already got it, and the narrative just hasn't caught up with it, yet.
I agree with the "no matter what his thoughts or intentions were, he still did terrible things" and that's why I don't hate Tamlin as much as I love Rhys. To me the problem is neither of the characters, is how the author sugar coats Rhys actions and puts a narrative to make Rhys look better when there was absolutely no need of that. He was a good character on his own.
Also, it seems like she kinf of undermines the mental abuse and puts the physical abuse in a complete different level. Why is that Feyra doesn't have much of a problem with someone who sexually assaulted and humiliated her ? she still didn't know about Rhys intentions so how is that she doesn't habe much of a problem with Rhys but with Tamlin who has always treated her well until that moment when he looses it, the author describes it as the worst thing but to Rhys is ok because he had good intentions? , the problem is not that Feyra reacted like that to Tamlin, I think is a normal response to violence but it doesn't make sense when she just accepts Rhys so quickly like, oh every thing he did under the mountain is forgiven because he was forced (?) . Tmlin clearly has PTSD so is not like he was completely conscious of his actions. And he, unlike Feyra, doesn't have a support system that helps him heal.
I also am kind of confused of where this hate comes from , it would be understandable if we only had the 2 first books but Tamlin already redeemed himself in ACOWAR, he saved Feyra and her sister twice and then brought his little army with an ally that I don't remember the name and then saved Rhy's life.. in exchange of nothing , he even wished Feyra to be happy. isn't that redemption enough? I don't want to diminish how he acted with Feyra in ACOMAF but he didn't do enough bad to be hated so much, it was mostly how the author described everything .
I definitely think this story could have been written with the same events but a different narrative because otherwise is double standards.
U look like Milly Bobby brown in ur thumbnail
Thank you! One of the best compliments I've received 🤗
i know and tamlin in real life, and lets just say... its not a good experience