Tailpiece Weights - Can You Hear a Difference?
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- čas přidán 16. 07. 2024
- Links to everything mentioned:
Glasser Carbon Composite Tailpiece:
fiddlershop.com/products/glas...
Wittner Carbon Composite Tailpiece:
fiddlershop.com/products/witt...
Wittner Fine Tuner (for violin)
fiddlershop.com/products/witt...
Wittner Tailgut:
fiddlershop.com/products/witt...
The Fiddlerman Artist Violin:
fiddlershop.com/products/fidd...
Holstein 3-star bow:
fiddlershop.com/products/hols... - Hudba
Michael cracks me up. Please autograph my violin I just ordered from fiddlerman. Also, you need your own show.
Michael did a demo on the violin I purchased. I was sold by his talent and personality.
G definitely sounds better on the wooden, there is a vibrance and colour.
1:46 and 3:46 are good spots to compare. Also 2:00 and 4:01
PS- I like the wooden better. It speaks louder & with more confidence
Thank you! Very nice input 😃
Same feeling with you that I like the wooden better in this test and so I will consider to change my carbon tailpieces back to wooden one. Ha Ha! I think it is not mainly due to the weight and more important is the materials.
Thanks for the timestamps! Super helpful :)
Yes but if just compare single note, I found the carbon has more of the ending sound lingering at the end. Carbon is also brighter in general too.
I see a lot of different opinions here, interesting. To me the carbon tailpiece had more highs, sounded less muffled, kind of like a violin costing several times as much as the Artist.
I was not expecting to hear any difference at all,
and I vastly prefer the appearance of the ebony.
But I'll be a monkeys uncle if I didn't really notice and prefer the carbon composite.
It was! Interesting! Thanks 😊
I would suggest a blind test the next time so people don't know what you played.
To me the ebony tail piece sounded with warmer tones.
And the carbon fiber tailpiece to be sounded like the tones were tinty if that would be considered the right term.
Michael’s demo videos are that winning combination of great content and talent, polished informative presentation and light humor to make it fun. 😉🥳🌟
Wow, thank you!
The strings from the tailpiece to the bridge will be longer on the composite due to the position of the fine tuners which will brighten the violin. That being said weight is not the only difference that influences the sound.
Oh that's interesting! Good tip for deciding which tailpiece would work best for each violin. Very helpful info
No wonder the carbon sounds so much brighter
I definitely enjoyed the wood tailpiece far more. Thank you for the demo!
Thanks for watching!
1:46. 3:46
2:09. 4:10
2:53. 4:53. open strings
Thank you!
CC lacks depth, breadth and warmth of the ebony. Sounds more 'hollow?' - played in a large warehouse feel. ? It sounds good, just not the same. I'd been looking closely at Glasser CC 4 & 5 string violins. I understand they formerly came with wood soundpost and bridge but now are standard with cc/plastic? Have heard both on demo and far prefer tbe wooden. components. Am a bit put off by the change and really would want to hear them in person as they do have a different sound than wood instruments. Just musing around here. I fully understand the advantages of CC as humidity here fluctuates from 35 - 110% sometimes it seems all in the same day. Lol. You have given food for thought. Hope y'all have a great weekend!
Feels like singing voice of an old lady vs a young lady..... Really comes down to personal preference
I think the second one sounded more open and free.
The ebony with all the finetuners sounded like it was choked and constrained. Like it wanted to be free but couldn't.
Like a bird kept in a cage.
Heck of a fine sounding violin either way!
You can feel the difference and a lot! The carbon tailpiece seems to sound lighter, but I have to admit it is closer to a human voice and makes the violin sing more and wins!
Always love your videos!! Your personality shines! I agree with you on your observations, however, on a more expensive violin, I would be very hesitant to use carbon fiber, ebony, or box wood my preferred fittings. even rosewood. Great video Michael, as always.
Thank you, Chava!! :)
FiddlerShop You are also so entertaining and really show off the fiddlerman products and you also play very well. As I am buying your products: Can I “Buy you” 🎻🥰🥰🥰
Some competition for you; I love Hilary and this video is hilarious!! Thought U would like it!! czcams.com/video/eOjO4ekcJQA/video.html !!
Definitely the wooden tailpiece is way better it gives warmth, vibrance, and colour to the sound
Thanks for watching, Peter!
Wrong!
The sound with the carbon tailpiece sounds cheaper snd in the ebony one sounds wider
Wooden tailpieces give an elegant, professional vibe. One fine tuner is all you need once you master tuning the G, D, and A pegs. Don’t weigh it down too much. Carbon is fine for beginners, but I’m very much for gradually weaning players off all but the E fine tuner.
I did this with mine and I liked it alot. Sadly my A peg is very temperamental due to needing bushed so i had to put the fine tuner back for that one to combat the annoying peg
I feel the best sound can be achieved with composite ebony-carbon tailpiece. Carbon fiber on GD and Ebony wood on AE.
I recently installed the Wittner ULTRA Tailpiece made of composite material, purchased from Fiddlershop. I did the installation myself (something I've never done). I am a complete newbie to violin. The installation went great but I had to adjust the bridge after tuning it up because it went a little forward pointing toward the scroll. Someone told me these are just for amateurs, that they are like training wheels. I told him I'm willing to bet if these and the Planetary geared tuners were around in the 1700's and 1800's that Paganini would have used them. But who cares? If it helps turned to perfection, why not use them? If they make life easier, why not use them?
Thank you Michael for your excellent videos. You really are an inspiration.
I went back and forth in the video where you start each piece and the ebony sounded deeper.
I find both to be extremely close, with a slight edge in favor of the ebony tailpiece, I wonder if it would sound even better without the fine tuners on 3 of the strings. I get what you're saying about faster response though, however I'm not sure I'd be willing to sacrifice better tone for faster response.
To me Carbon taill gives a clearer and More focused tone.
Not only is the weight of 4 added metal tuners an issue, but the metal lever style tuners shorten the "after length", the distance between the bridge and the tailpiece, also affecting the resonance.
Wittner tailpieces are inexpensive and they work very well.
The Carbon Composite Tailpiece certainly livens up the sound. Wittner Tailpieces are basically French style, they really need to expand the catalogue w/ Hill Style composite tailpieces.
sounds brighter smoother
I like the sound with the carbon tail better.
Well done, the composite had a more resonance and fullness. Great experiment.
Awesome, thank you!
Both sound fine. I'm only interested in how the responsiveness is effected.
the synthetic tail pieces tend to be shorter then the wooden ones by 1/2 an inch which effect the tone(string distance overall)and legnthening the loop to compensate can look a little extreme.any thoughts?
My tailpiece was the exact same length as the one I took off that only hat the E tuner on it.
I think the ebony tailpiece adds more volume & presence to the fiddle.The carbon fiber seems to tone it down a bit & soften up the overall tone.I tried a witner carbon fiber with 4 fine tuners & quickly changed it back to my beautiful ebony antique tailpiece with a beautiful inlaid flower & the tone & volume Immediately increased . I've found in using carbon fiber vs. wood (bows & tailpieces)that wood tends to conduct sound vibrations better than carbon & being heavier,I think vibrates the top plate more,thus producing more volume(just my opinion).But I guess it just depends on what sound you're after.Dan
The obvious extension of this idea is an ultra light tailpiece with no fine tuners. As you mentioned at the end you could combine this with geared pegs like the Wittners to retain the fine tuning ability. Possibly getting a carbon tail piece that's only like 10 g? Or as you say a wooden one that's only 15 g. That's what I'm considering and it would be a great comparison to watch and listen to and get your opinion on.
I don't know which one is better, but i feel like the carbon one is easier to play with...?Feel like you can trade a lil bit of complexity for consistency...?
Whoaa! I'm listening with my 1000xm5 sony headphones and the carbon composite tailpiece has a difference! If it were not for the looks I'm sure people will choose the carbon composite tailpiece in a heartbeat!
That thumbnail editing was on point 😂
Lol! An attempt was made.
For my cello, i would prefer the ebony especially on my luis and clark cf. That cello REALLY projects and it is bright. I also have a Voss Scala Corta traditional that is a bit bright and plan to change the pegs to gear pegs, so i will eliminate the fine tuners.
Wooden tailpiece ftw!
The ebony one gives more texture to the sound.
If you don't need fine tuners for a G and D string you can easily just take the screws out. What will the weight be if taking out those screws?
Nice video
Appreciate it, Qutub!
Interesting for sure, I thought the Ebony sounded better/richer and had more sustain. The CF was more brilliant/brighter.....I preferred the Ebony. I would be curious to hear the same comparison adding Rosewood and Boxwood. My guess is Rosewood might be a nice compromise between the CF & Ebony.
Wood is probably slightly better tone overall, a bit warmer. The composite will allow more vibration and as such a brighter tone. I have a few violins and trying the composite over wood. Also replacing wood pegs with whitner mechanical allowing the use of the wood tailpiece less all the tuners. Keep in mind vibrating string between tail and bridge is to be 1/6 of the distance of bridge to nut. Length of tailpiece w/without tuners may alter that.
It also helps to have a tailpiece that matches the tap of the top nearby. If you can get after lengths three of the lower strings to match the higher adjacent strings, that's a plus.
I wasn't know that tailpiece that may effects violin sound mine is rosewood with 4 tuner because I play oriental music .. informative video thanks
Thanks for watching 😍
Is the bridge in exactly the same place after the changed tailpiece?
Wittner Fine Tune Pegs & a Wittner Tailpiece that dosen't have fine tuners will really give you all the advantages.
He sold me on the Artino practice mute because he’s hilarious and he’s charming...love watching his videos...
Yes, we agree!!! :)
@@Fiddlershop I love your modesty!
the carbon composite sounded better - i kept jumping back and forth listening to the same sections, and with the the wooden tailpiece and discrete tuners the sound was dull and muffled by comparison. the A and E string especially sounded way better with the carbon composite tailpiece.
i'd love to hear a comparison like this on a cello.
Nice video, did you manage to get the same afterlength and strings angle at bridge with the two tailpieces ? Can make quite a noticeable difference.
Thanks for watching!
I believe the harder the material will sound best for the highs, but the density of the ebony gives more rounded mid-lows a lows in general. I don't think the weight it's whats really in the difference here, but the hardness. I would like to hear richlite. I liked best the carbon fiber in the highs and the ebony in the lows.
I have to say I did seem to notice more attractive overtones and harmonics and a longer ring with the carbon. I suppose I could get over the idea that 4 tuners looks so beginner . Is it not probable that more quality violins are lacking the tuners for weight reduction ?
Carbon seems to have a more open sound, is this true? Which is my best friend?
I do hear crisper notes with the carbon fiber one but I do prefer the ebony tail piece.These carbon fiber one have that cheap plastic look. Mine does have 4 fine tuners due to being a beginner and is ebony and lots heavier.
I think the violin lost some warmth. The violin got brighter with the carbon tailpiece. There was a throaty aspect to the voice that seemed to go away entirely with the swap. All-in-all I would say you lost some low midrange and gained some brighter overtones. This seems like it would be a preference call to me. I like the wooden sound better. I think you can actually see this in your spectral analysis especially on the D string at the beginning scale. There seems to be less meat between 2-3k. Overall you maybe gained some punch but lost some richness of tone. Just my 2 cents.
Ya, but it sounds wooden.😆
A Hill Style Wittner Tailpiece would be kinda cool.
i see a lot of comments saying that the violin sound more free/open, with the composite tailpiece. Actually i think these two tail pieces would have sounded less different if the ebony one hadn’t fine tuners on every strings. The finetuners shorten the strings, and so it might sound a bit muffled (especially on low strings) or something like that, whereas if you watch carefully, the one with integrated fine tuners has it on the good length (i’m sorry for this sentence it’s so bad constructed haha english isn’t my native language i struggled a bit (a lot)) Anyways i hope this comment could enlighten your point of view about this comparison !!
Very good point! It's hard to control every variable, but fun to experiment
My ear liked the carbon composite tailpiece.
Carbon composite gave a dynamic reverb sounds, while the woodeen gave a clear direct tone
What software do you use for spectrum analysis of the violin sound?
I use Adobe Audition for that. Although I'm open to suggestions if you know of another interesting graph
What is the difference between red and purple sandalwood, ignoring the price? I was debating what to get for my violin.
Thanks for watching! Please contact our customer service team for that information!
I would prefer to go for the wittner fine tuning pegs and a lighter tailpiece with no fine tuners.
The Ebony tailpiece to me sounded fuller, warmer and with more character than the other tailpiece.. The Carbon fiber one sounded less full, and slightly nasal.
I actually like the wooden one. It does sound different to the other, heavier, but I like the sound of the violin better with that one on. It gives it tonal qualities I think the other lacks
I like the ebony tailpiece better, better sounding . The carbon tailpiece definitely had a faster attack but also had less sustain .
What can I do if my violin sounds too low? When I tune violin , I can't make it sound higher , because string possibly can break
Make sure the end isn't getting stuck in the peg hole as you are turning the peg because it will act like a wedge or door stop.. Also make sure it's wound evenly on the peg and is gripping properly. You also need to make sure your nut and bridge are lubricated for string to slide over. I've seen people use pencil in these areas. Watching a video on how to string it. Maybe you find out it's an easy problem. These are a few fixes I've had to use for mistakes I've made. Also wearig a pair of reading glasses helps in my case..
@@katherinejones8515 Thanks
piece name ??
As to me I like the ebony I feel it warmer .. in other way your violin sound woowww 👍💐
Yay, great! Thanks for your kind words!
Ebony makes E string sounds more vibrant and complex. Composite makes all sounds softer, G string more pleasant to hear.
This one sounds better with the composite material tp.
Ebony sounds better to me the carbon reminds me too much of a eletric violin which is just one clean perfect sound but no warmth as much
Some years back, cellists were switching to carbon tailpieces in droves because it improved the sound of even expensive cellos. I thought the sound of the carbon on the violin was more vibrant and clear, particularly on the G and D. Thank you for the comparison, Gibbles.
There's a luthier in Texas who thinks one of the "secrets" of the Stradivarius is the shorter, thinner fingerboards which were used during that time, so less wood means more vibration. Whether it allows the violin to vibrate more freely or the finger board vibrates more if it's thinner, I'm not sure. I think it's the former.
Another part which can affect sound is the shoulder rest. Some of the cheap ones muffle the instrument, which has something to do with the design. The more expensive shoulder rests are designed to allow for as much vibration of the violin as possible. Of course, you get the most sound from playing with no shoulder rest, like Heifetz and many of his students.
I use a Bon Musica (German) shoulder rest which I believe Hilary Hahn switched to about 6 months ago. It surprised me because I've never seen a famous violinist with one and or even people in orchestras. I chose it for comfort and adjustability, and it is good for long-necked people. On the downside, it's heavy and a little expensive.
Strads are grossly overrated and founded on history rather than quality, while fine models, guarneri, amatis, huggeiri's and montagana's are vastly better cello templates
Shoulders dampen the sound of your instrument than using a shoulder rest which separates your body from the violin, hence the violin will vibrate more freely. Let that sink in, shoulder rests have less material and can vibrate more compared to the fats bones and muscles that is on your shoulder touching the violin.
@@roume.3304 Probably true. Ironically, in frustration over a slight neck pain, months ago, after watching a few videos on considerations when doing it, I switched to no shoulder rest and...no pain. It was liberating for me. No sponge, no cloth. I like that it makes the violin lighter.
@@roume.3304 your shoulder doesnt make contact if you are holding it right. It should hover above you in a similar way to what the shoulder rest does. The only point of contact from below is with your collarbone ideally.
I think if there is even any difference of sound, it can be attributed to the change in weight and the freedom of a different playing angle.
Carbon one sounds sweeter
To me without a doubt the carbon composite made the instrument much more open sounding.
Thanks for your input!
Couple of things bother me about this test. First, with all strings off, not only is the bridge no longer held in place, neither is the soundpost. Seems to me it could have easily slipped. Either or both of these things being moved would most definitely change the sound. Second, if these tailpieces are not same length wouldn't that mean the strings arent the same length? Seems like that would have an impact. So there is no way that difference in weight is isolated 8n this test, so no conclusions can be drawn. That being said, the violin sounded better with the wood tailpiece. Richer and fuller.
Geared pegs actually would rock because you wouldn't need fine tuners on that tailpiece anymore.
Why not make a Composite Tailpiece shaped like a wooden one?
Interesting. I really liked the heavier guttsier sound better.
Thanks for watching!
Ebony sounded best, wider color range, more focus, more resonance and sustain on open strings. If pegs were properly fitted there should be no problem tuning the G D and A always a tuner on E, preferable a Hill style. Agustino Napoli
Bruh......I honestly thought you were related to Fiddlerman for the longest time!
You're not alone. Fiddlershop was started by Pierre "Fiddlerman" Holstein and his son, Michael Holstein, but I'm the "other" Michael in the office, which is why I usually go by "Gibbles" to avoid some confusion. 😄
@@Fiddlershop you are my favorite haha
Thanks Michael! I really like your videos. Just For Your Info (FYI) Wittner does make fine tuners with two different width openings in the distal of the tuner arm. www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BO83FO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
If I did it correctly, this is the link to the “wide” (opening). Also, with the magic of editing it may be beneficial for comparisons if there is a minimum (< 6 sec.) between clips; something I learned recently from an Arco bow comparison video.
The music piece was so long I don’t even remember what I heard.
😥
To my ear, the carbon composite sounded better. Noticeable.
Carbon composite...., huge difference. Soft, deep, full, magical.
The Ebony tailpiece sounds clearer and more free i prefer it
Thanks for watching! :)
@@Fiddlershop You are welcome ☺
Sounds brighter and a bit echoy
Thanks for watching!
For sure I prefer the ebony. Fuller sound. The carbon tailpiece lost the richness.
ebony vs carbon
thin vs fuller
shouty vs even
Thanks for watching!
the composite sounds like the violin has a mute on
The wood had better projection, sounded better. The composite sounded nasal.
I can tell the difference. To me the carbon fiber tail piece sounds a little overpowering, or a little too sharp. I prefer the ebony tail piece far better than the Carbon Fiber One! For me the carbon fiber tail pieces just a little too much. In my opinion it's borderline of having a shrieking tone
The carbon sounds cleaner, but a little sterile to me. Also it’s almost so loud that the mic can’t handle it lol
The wood has a raw acoustic sound that just tugs at the heartstrings
There is a pleasant nasal gravity to the EBONY. THE carbon sounded dead! Uninteresting tone. Thanks😅
I like the carbon fiber a lot more!! I went in with no expectations; but I guess music is THAT personal!
No fine tuner on the e string? Did you hear that!? That was the sound of a snapping e string!
If the tuning pegs have peg dope, and the player or tuner already got used to tune using the tuning pegs alone, it's fine, and even finer since the tailpiece gets very light.
@@kevinv.m.94 Or what would be even better Geared Tuners
@@RockStarOscarStern634 Geared tuners are best for electric violins where the additional weight would not cause a negative change in the sound, and in the way it can be carried between the chin and shoulder.
For purely acoustic violins, having heavier tuners means slightly softer sound (loss of projection), and more force in clamping the instrument between the chin and the shoulder (or the collar bone).
Even one finer tuner at the tailpiece reduces the volume of the sound of the violin.
The violinists who want better sound sometimes sacrifice some ease in tuning their instrument for a bigger and fuller sound during the performance.
@@kevinv.m.94 These are Ultra-Light Machine Heads:www.internationalviolin.com/ProductDetail/7601_violin-machine-heads-44sz-brass & they don't change the sound cause they're hollow.
@@kevinv.m.94 Actually the Fine Tune Pegs will be a good match for Acoustic Bowed instruments which means you no longer need fine tuners on the tailpiece. The Machine Heads will be OK for Electric Instruments as well as Acoustic-Electric instruments. I put machine head tuners on an Acoustic Violin meaning I no longer needed those fine tuners on the tailpiece, & I had to get this strap:viostrap.com/product-category/violin-and-viola/
I was over 65 before I ever saw more than one fine tuner. Lightweights use 4.
You cant compare. I will always depend the instrument.
Carbon is brighter, less rich in tone. Wood is darker, richer in tone.
What would be even easier is to have Machine Heads & no fine tuners cause it's simpler.
The ebony tailpiece sounds better sounds wood...
I think the carbon tail piece lost tonal density.
Thanks for watching!
the violin is not tuned in 440 even