-Episode 3- The LabScope is mightier than the wrench! Diagnose P0016 beyond doubt before teardown!
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- čas přidán 14. 07. 2024
- **EPISODE 1** • -Episode 1- Cam/Crank ...
**EPISODE 2** • How to Perform a Relat...
In episode 3 of 6 it's time to prove this fault being any doubt...and no, not be removing the valve covers! In this class, it's all about working smarter, not harder!
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I can see how important it is to have a known good signal. And again, that PICO scope is a beautiful tool, but only if you have the skill to use it. Excellent instructional video Mike, thank you.
Thanks for watching Wyatt. The PICO is a great tool, and hopefully I am showing it well enough that people will gain the skills to use it, if they don't already!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Ahhhh nice diagnosis Mike & great instructional video. You are a natural as an instructor!!
Thanks Bob, that really means a lot to me!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Hi Mike
This is awesome video for me I learnt a lot , thanks for your work
Mike this is just getting better and better! Thanks a lot!
Thanks man! Glad you're enjoying it!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Very interesting, and well presented. Thank you for sharing.
Thanks for watching Andrew!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Which brings to my attention that some people will disassemble front engine and check timing ( miles ? ) . Problem is its not under load / full stretch .
I had a individual tell me I was wrong, I told him take one valve spring , set it on the work bench and press down on it and see the work pressure, now multiply that to all springs in that engine. Teeth/gear ,chain ,etc.
Bottom line is, the scope is actuate under load condition, even to see chain slack, etc, under acc, and decel .
That's a great point Over Load, just another bullet in the "labscopes the best diag tool" gun, right? Thanks for watching bud!
~Mike
I learned the hard way that on the Mazda /Ford 2.0/2.3/2.5L engines a cam/crank correlation can look good but that the timing can still be off. With the keyless crankshafts, the crank can be out of time but the signal still looks good. I confirmed this with the help of the guys on Paul's forum. Took me a while to figure it out but I learned a lot. lol Thanks Mike. Looking forward to the next part in the series!
Hey John, ahhh sounds like you're talking about the good ole' Ford motor that doesn't have a keyway on the crank...dumb idea if you ask me!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Wells Vehicle Electronics Yes sir! The earlier gens of the Mini are keyless as well. Someone recently mentioned that there is a new Ford engine that's keyless too although I haven't confirmed which one.
Oh, Mini's too. I'll keep that in mind! Not sure on the new Ford engine. :/
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Good video! I'm impressed with the skills involved in your electronic diagnostics. It seems to me that car makers would do everyone a huge favor by including test points in the design of their electronics. I know that my plasma television sets have test points, mainly on the power boards. It makes doing your diagnostics so much easier. A relatively simple cable from the PCM and the various sensors to a single shielded test point box located within easy reach under the hood. It would supplement the OBD connector. No more using time in taking a half a dozen parts off just to get to the sensors. Less hassle for the mechanic/technician, and less cost for the customer. Cost to manufacture would be minimal.
Hey Troy, thanks for watching and for the compliment! I wish that was the case man! Would make our lives so much easier...I'm not too sure the vehicle manufacturers want the vehicles to be easier to work on though. It seems they keep making it harder...keeps more people away from touching them and more cars going back to the dealer.
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Hi, just two things:
On the ypico You have, at the bottom right of the screen a blue dot, these are degree cursors and worth using. Set them for a two rotation range of the crankshaft and add 720 degree in the cursor menu. Now you can use the two left bottom cursors to also measure degrees and you know instantly if you have a jumped sprocket tooth or a vvt problem. Yesterday I had a shifted intake cam but correct timingchain and sprocket position.
Second: if You use the computerconnector anyway You save time and just use it for the camsensors too and so You not only test the sensor or its position but the wireing all the way to the computer at the same time.
I use my Pico for everyting on my cars and learn something from other Pico users every day, so keep up the good work and thanks.
Bernhard
He did mention in the video about the degree cursors but said it was not necessary since his intention was to show the correlation was simply off
Hey Bernhard! Those are all great points! I will actually be hooking up all at the PCM in the last video where we verify the repair. Thanks for watching!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Eddie
ok, I missed that comment. I use those cursors all the time since they give valuable information quickly and I have not seen many guys using them with the Pico.
Bernhard, you're right, the cursors are super valuable and more people should use em'!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Awesome lessons. Thank you so much guys
Hey J G, thanks for watching!!
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
excellent video Mike thanks
Thanks Mark!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Thanks so much very easy to understand AAA+
Great job mike
Thanks Vince, I know it's no pressure transducer test!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
I just bought myself a Pico advance kit last week and I'm looking forward to improving my diagnostics skills! Great vid!
Hey KillJD, you are going to love it! Amazing tool!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Good Morning 🙏 🌄 ✨ Mike Becker
Great tutorial thank you very much helpful video thanks 👍
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
Great information.
Awesome video Mike. I wouldnt have pinned all 3 at the ecm either....too much in one spot for me. Cant wait to see tomorrows video.
Thanks Brandon. I think it's all a preference. In the 6th vid, you'll see all of them on the PCM. Just different way's to do the same thing.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Mike, great video series!!!!!!
Hey Kevin, thanks! Glad you liked it!!!
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
well done from zimbabwe
Hey Smart Chishaya, thank you!
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
hi MIKE, awesome episodes and excellent info how things done to find the problem with scope.thanks for sharing cheeeers
Hey J Georges, thanks man! Appreciate you watching, and the kind words!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Small Paint tip:
Holding shift while drawing a line will make it 100% straight. No need of fiddling around. :)
Same also works in Greenshot (which I talked about in the comments of the previous episode).
Thanks again Blocki, i'll make sure to use that for next time!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
No problem, Mike. Will continue with tips should I encounter more things like that while watching the episodes.
One thing, though:
Do you mind "reversing" your playlists? When someone like me wants to binge watch them, we cannot reverse them and have to manually go back. CZcams, for unknown reasons, has no sorting option for the viewers.
Blocki, thanks! I will look into this. That's weird. I just upload them in there and they did the arranging. I'll take a look at changing it up.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Wow so a 1 hour time slot turned into 3 nights to diagnose 👍
I found you though Keith New Level Auto. Love this video. 👍👍👍👍 Just subscribe
Hey Frank, welcome! Thanks Man! Keith's a good guy!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Trying to catch up on vids. On to episode 4 now, commercial free (well except for the KY Jelly pre-roll ad) haha
About time! Slackin all weekend huh? Hope you enjoyed some time with your family. And by the way, adds are tailored to the viewer, not by me! Hate to see your search history :)
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
+Wells Vehicle Electronics Yes I had a good weekend thanks and hope you did as well. I checked with a Ytube analytic specialist and they are pegging the lube ads on the Wisconsin side of things......hmmmm? LOL Take care Mike
Do I go hard and smart yes I do, and diagnosis is a great way of clarifying those confirmation on that hard tireless work you do. However, you know what they say about "time is money" so get in there mike and watch those sensors, components, wires etc lol, or you would create a mess then what you started with before lol.. The great things is I diffinately like the set up it gives you more clarity and the wiring diagram should be the first thing before any hard and smart diagnosis lol. Again nice job mike..
Thanks for watching and commenting Jordan!
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Great work thanks for all the hard work you and Wells spend on putting this together
can't wait for the next one
one question what kind of scan tool are you working with and would you have a opinion
on a good beginners scan tool
Hey Richard, thanks for watching! We do it for you! We are using a Launch PadII in these videos. Great tool so far. As for a beginner tool you might want to check what else Launch has to offer. They make some solid tools. What are you looking to spend on a tool? That will greatly affect what you get.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Be sure to check the service manual. The Chrysler I'm working on specifically says NOT to probe the PCM connection or damage could result. Is a special tool really required?
Thanks Mike for another great vid, I love the way you use your scope man . I currently have a snap on Verus which does have a scope built in but I may get a pico . Is there any particular model scope you suggest?
Hey Miguel, thank you very much! The PICO is nice to use. I find it easier than the Snap-On. I use the PICO 4425. I believe it's the most popular scope for techs that scope. Reach out to Carlos at AESWave.com. Tell him I sent you, may get a little bit better price.
Mike Becker, Senior Instructor
Thank you I will .
Thanks for the video Mike, do you know where i can get a good CAM CRANK signal waveform library for any vehicles ?
Hey Canh Iam, thanks for watching! Facebook groups are a great resource. If you own a PICO labscope you can also get waveforms there. Look for the FB group called "the automotive waveform exchange."
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Guys...when you have a PCM that is easily accessible, that doesn't even require removal of a plastic connector cover, you should be taking all scope measurements at the PCM.
Only downside would be if you ruin the wire protection for the circuit you are testing right at the PCM. Always need to be very careful!
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Great job Mike and a clear explanation.
Why is it an intermittent fault when the cams are out of sync 100% of the time ?
Looking forward to part 3.
Hey Tam, that is the question that I'm looking to answer in tonight video! :)
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
could it have something to do with that old saying 'even a broken clock is right twice a day' ?
I just bought a fairly used Toyota Corolla 2010 model and when I took it for a test drive, I heard noise when I accelerate which then smoothens out as I drive on till I brake again and try to accelerate, this noise seems to be coming from under the hood on the passenger side, I bought the car regardless - thinking it could be exhaust issues and travelled with it, the sound continued all through the 9hrs travel but no new issue developed and I seem to get good gas mileage. The next morning I honestly did not do oil checks before takeoff, I had hardly driven for 5min when low oil pressure light came on, I packed almost immediately - less than 300m after, bought a 1ltr Total oil (20W) and added approx. 0.5ltr which turned out to put the oil at over-gauge, the low oil pressure light went off anyways, even though I didn’t try to run or drive the car any further before adding the oil perhaps the warning light will go off by default. After that event, I began to notice intermittent low engine power, whereby I will match on the gas and the car would drag, then it might later pick after a long drag, the drag starts from low RPM but does not have any specific RPM it switches into normal drive. At whatever RPM while in motion, the car experiences difficulty to climb but runs smoother coming down a cliff.
I think it’s important to mention that the noise from under the hood is still there, and no Check Engine Light.
When I went for computer diagnosis, code P0016 and P0017 came up which could be erased.
Sounds like you may have a timing issue on there. Could be something related to the VVT system, maybe its plugged up or sticking. Make sure that oil is the right viscosity and the proper fill.
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
@@GoTechTraining To be sure I get the fix you are recommending, I should do a oil and filter change maybe to full synthetic Mobil 1, then it should be fine?? Because I think I notice the car switches to VVT on low RPM I didnt mention that before because I wasn't too sure that was what I was experiencing, when the car hesitate and I continue to hold down the gas pedal, I feel VVT kicks in...
Hard to know if that will fix it or not...but it is a good, cheap first step.
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
@@GoTechTraining ok, thank you for your time and input, will let you know how it goes.
Finally, an oil change was performed yesterday to a synthetic 5W-30 oil, right fill, the filter was changed and the sump was opened to clean the oil pump mesh. The VVT Solenoid/sensor was cleaned off clogs, the air filter was observed and cleaned, the spark plugs too were cleaned, but with all that done, the rattling/tapping noise like of a chain, on the passenger side of the car from under the hood persists and the car does not pick up/accelerate correctly also there is alot of noise (generally) maybe from transmission shifting delay or so, like the car is under an opposite directional drag. The most annoying thing is, there is still no check engine light.
I plan to service the transmission soon...
Wish I can learn from you
Sorry if this is a stupid question but cant you just use the scope function on the code reader to compare the sensor timings rather than back probing?
Hey Ian, the readings on the scan tool are not going to be able to accurately for this diagnosis. A lab scope is going to be the only way to accurately obtain this reading.
Mike Becker, Senior Instructor
Hi Mike,
Great series on the Toyota.
Just a quick question though. If you had to go to the ECU to grab the crank signal why didn't you also grab the cam signals from there as well?
I only ask because it would have saved you dismantling the air filter box and also proved wire integrity back to the ECU at the same time.
Best wishes from the UK
Hey Mark, thanks for watching! Yes, 100% you could grab all the signals at the ECU. I showed multiple areas so people could connect wherever they chose.
Mike Becker, Senior Instructor
Great video , some cars have VVT and cam sensor what the is difference ?? Do both consider cam sensors ?? If i wanna do cam to crank correlation in a car has VVT , cam and ckp should i put the scope on the three ??
Thanks mike for your time
Hey Amr Hamed, great question. The cam/crank sensors job is to just monitor the location of the camshafts and crankshaft. A VVT systems job is to change the valve timing. They create movement. The VVT is the parts that does the work, the cam/crank sensors are the ones that monitor it. Hope that clarifies it for you.
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
@@GoTechTraining thanks mike i appreciate your help
Thanks Amr!
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
For a straight Horizontal or Vertical Line in Paint, Hold Shift Key and then draw the line.
Instead of back probing on the cam sensor, could you not simply probe all three on the pcm? Also, can you show what it looks like to back probe up close? Very well done and awesome presentation. Btw, like you I have always tried to troubleshoot and verify the problem. I'm a back yard mechanic and wish I had access to these scan tools. I have a 97 Jeep with 318 that has an odd issue and without access to advanced scan data, I'm trying to solve logically. Thanks again for all your help.
Ken, the short answer is yes, 100%...and it would have been easier. I do show all 3 signals in the PCM in episode 6. I wanted to show it both ways for viewers. I am actually going to do a video on back probing in the near future here. Stay tuned! All about diagnosing and knowing for certain before throwing a part on, we never want to perform swapnonistic! Thanks for watching Ken!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Oooh part4
OOhh, 6 parts in total...Halfway done my friend!!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
In a case of a single bank like a 4 cylinder, how would this test differ? I get a p0016 AND p0017 code. Ive had two shops look at my car and one shop said "your cars running perfectly" and the other shop was testing the cam position sensors and didn't find a fix.
Hey Conrad, what kind of car is this on? let's start there.
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Mitsubishi Evolution 2013 ever since a new camshafts were put in (Tomei Poncam) I've pulled p0017 and p0016
When they were installed, were they timed properly? Could they be a tooth or 2 off?
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Hello mike. I wanted to ask if you happen to offer training/ education for auto instructors in Wisconsin. You obviously know your stuff and it would be great to have a hands on course with you. Thanks
Hey Jerry, we are currently working on building a field training program. Unfortunately we do not currently offer a hands on training seminar. :(
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Hi! For diesel are the same
?
Exselecte diagnostic amigo. Salude noelmatute
What if the cam phaser had some debris that prevented it from going all the way back to rest position?
Then you'll just have to watch the next video :) But, it would depend on what "rest" is on that specific vehicle.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Wells Vehicle Electronics stir stir stir the pot .. Make em think , how many degrees out determines whether it could be a phaser too😁
Which direction are we out here? What is rest position? These are questions that I answer tonight in part 4. But, if there were debris in the phaser, what would we expect to see then sir?
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Having a known good pattern of Crank-Cam sensors is vital for this kind of job.I remember your colleague Eric O. from SMA auto channel made 5 parts video series trying to diagnose a Chevrolet Colorado with P0017. But without a known good pattern it was horrible.I think p0017 is the same as p0016 dunno :(
A P0017 is similar. Just for Cam "B". Instead of Cam "A". Known goods are nice though. A lot of what we do would be hard to accomplish without it! Not impossible, just much harder and more time consuming.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Hello dear friend
But there is an option to look at a sensor MAP with the timing valves out of place
Great job Mike. Hey to bust your chops check your spelling on labscope lol. Glad to see the scope being used to show precisely the difference. Hey if you get a chance would you send me the known good if you have it would like to add it to my library. Thanks and are you going to supersaturday in Pennsylvania.
Hey. Thanks! Thanks for the heads up man....auto correct will be the death of me! A lap scope huh? Sure, shoot me an email so I have yours and I'll send it over. Nope, unfortunately I am not. it's a busy time of year for me, too much else going on! Looks like there are going to be a lot of great people there though.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Wells Vehicle Electronics lol will do really enjoying this series I always like proving something with out getting too dirty.
Right!!! I like that too. It's not so much about staying clean as it is being efficient with the time in your day! But, staying clean is one of the benefits :)
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Is it common for the check engine light to come on and off occasionally without resetting the light
Hey Rick, the check engine light comes on when the car has failed a test...sometimes it needs to happen on 2 different drive cycles. It then takes multiple consecutive passed test to clear the light. One fail and the counters started back over. I guess in a very very intermittent issue you could have a light that goes on and off occasionally.
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Wow! That's awesome. You're hands are still clean and not really any tools to wipe down yet. Gotta love it. Is there anywhere else to get the reference waveforms besides IATN?
THanks Mike! Glad you are enjoying the class! Under an hour, got to the point of selling a job to the customer. Now, it gets interesting. Next class will be a ton of theory, then...its teardown time :) Usually IATN is the best resource. Sometimes you can join some good Facebook groups, a lot of guys will share known good/bad waveforms in there.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
I have to say Mike, after reading through the comments in your series, or for all your classes actually, as much as I learn from your great teaching and wicked presentations, your viewers also contribute a wealth of knowledge here. Everybody learns from all angles. Its a great thing.
It really amazes me at the amount of support and knowledge that is given out in the comment section on these videos. A lot of smart car guys gathering in one place, there is bound to be some amazing chatting going on :)
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
If you own a Pico scope then there is a free database you can access to view user uploads of know good and bad wave forms
Eddie, good call!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Amazing video, gotta love technology. I have a question, in the event you have a stretched chain, wouldn't it be possible to give it a few revs look back on the data and see the red and blue lines come closer and then farther apart. And if it didn't then its just off a tooth or two? Then again the VVT may interfere with that theory.
Hey Shane, yes VVT may interfere. Also, the chain is under tension at all times. The stretch should really remain consistent because it's under tension.
Mike Becker, Senior Instructor
👍
👍👍👍
Went to the PCM to get the CKP signal but got your hands dirty to get CMP signals?
Frank, good eye man! I wanted to show different ways to grab the signal. In part 6 of the series I grab all 3 signals at the PCM. I just wanted everyone to see and understand that you can grab the same signals at different places on a car. Thanks for watching can commenting!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Hey Mike
Where did you get your pico training. Nice work
Richard, I have gotten my info from a few places. One, a Matt Fanslow class at AutoMechanicka. Fanslow is great! AutoNerdz also does some great stuff. Check them out, they ship you out a USB with training on it. Other than that, it has been mostly just hands on trial and error :)
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Wells Vehicle Electronics thanks. Check out john thronthon from avi
Heck ya Richard! Thornton's classes are great. I have been to many, double digits probably. You a midwest guy?
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
I had the privilege of getting trained in nw Indiana by him for emissions. Pico guru
Awesome! I think he is just an automotive diagnostics guru. His in-cylinder knowledge is amazing.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Volkswagen BWA is easy, didn't changed oil on time?
Valve timer stuck... They are pretty sensitive
You're talking VVT solenoids? They are incredibly sensitive!
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Mike, thanks for the show!
I actually do not believe the timing is of 1 tooth or 2......Quick measurement says 5 degrees +/- 1, this would be to less for a whole tooth. So maybe we are looking at a stretched chain or bad tensioner...If it was a bad dowel pin you got lucky that it's on the camshaft that is watched by the cmp.....Here an in-cylinder-pressure transducer would tell you the truth about BOTH camshafts at the same time..
Greetings
Hey Juergen! Guess you have to keep watching! *hint* I was wrong in my "1 or 2 teeth" statement! I go through it in the next one.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Mike, sure I'll be watching.... and I'll see a slightly retarded intake cam, won't I? THANKS for your time and dedication.
Cam and crank sensors are very hard to get to on some engines so you go to the PCM or ECM that not all of those are easy to get to so don't say that all timing can be checked in about an hour and most little shops don't have good information centers to get wire diagrams and component lovations good video but it took you more time then what you said how long did it take to get all the info wiring diagrams and component locations like I said good video but be more honest in how long it would really take a normal tech under normal shop conditions like dealers that are small and have only 1 computer in the shop that you have to wait for and now have all the tools to do it I worked at a Chevrolet dealership and a Ford dealership and neither one had a low amp probe so they couldn't even do this test
Hey CptPotato07, Honestly we live off of information today at our fingertips. I don't see how shops could still only have one computer and be reliably repairing newer vehicles in an efficient manner. Did you purchase all of the tools in your own tool box? Is a low amp probe something other than another tool? It makes us money, just as a socket set or impact would. There are cheaper alternatives out there to get into scoping with that I really hope videos like this inspire people to get out there and buy. If you ever have any questions or need some help, don't hesitate to reach out!
Mike Becker, Senior Technical Instructor
Dig It
Hey Tracycolorado, thanks for watching!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Why not just get all the signals at the pcm?
Hey Chou Yang, yes, for sure could have. I wanted to show multiple methods of retrieving the signal.
~Mike
so realistically wouldn't you of started with this test. ruling out the need for compression testing and so on. rule out the worst case scenario first? So if the timing did line up what would that have meant?
Darn ...wish I had your confidence....I guess you need to let the customer know that you are going to need them to leave the the vehicle and not stay and look over your shoulders.I really have to get my scope out and get used to all it has to offer.
Hey man, practice makes perfect! You show this waveform to a customer and they think you're a genius...prove it before you sell it and they will be a customer for life! Brush the dust off the scope and play. It may take a while now, you may stumble, but it will all be worth it in the end when you use your scope all the time. Have to learn to walk before you can run!
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
To be truthfull i would have done both test i am not realky into the time i have into the diagnosis i just want to make it right for the customer we can all eat some time now and then. No biggie
Lol why not grab all three signals at ecu?
Great question!!! I wanted to show multiple spots of hooking up. If I was doing this in the shop I would have grabbed at the PCM. Actually in video 6, you'll see i'm hooking up all at the PCM...thanks for commenting K.A.
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Wells Vehicle Electronics thats what I thought. Thanks for this video btw! When ever the younger(or old timers) get this kind of dtc at work, I try to explain this procedure to them but now i can just have them watch these videos.
Excellent! That's what it's all about! 100x better than pulling the valve covers or the front cover...
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor
Saids someone who doesn’t like taking things apart, you should’ve done all of your connections at the pcm 🤦♂️
T
???? Hi :)
Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor