Forcing DredgeVine In The Vintage Cube
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- I've been skeptical of the Dredge deck so far, and this time I decided to force it and see what the chatter (or lack thereof) is all about.
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9:45 that's the Dredge alarm, it's a cube failsafe they programmed in to keep the strategy in check. You're probably the first to trigger it which is why it's not widely known
Lol, GOAT comment
Anyone else think it was THEIR fire alarm going off?
I jumped out of my seat irl.
My dog certainly did, she freaked out.
My apartment building just caught fire the other day shit was borderline PTSD inducing 😂
The rare spoiler I’m happy to have
I jumped and paused the video in panic LSV how could you
Round 1 - what an insane opposing deck.
I think their may have been some LSenVy at that deck, something he would be giddy playing, hah.
Yeah that deck was gross. That many big mana rocks it's hard to overcome playing more fair magic like this deck. This deck can pop off, but it needs an ideal draw to compete with that.
Agreed that Wrenn and Six and Life from the Loam are both sources of lands in hand and can be slightly redundant. But the card Six is much more of a sink for lands in hand than it is a source of them. Having Six makes me want Loam even more.
Man I was stunned to see he actually did the thing! Round one opponent stomping him with the ol' LSV special is ironically insane.
He didnt get survival or bazaar, so i demand a do-over
The hogaak getting hit with smirking spelljacker sure did bring a smirk to my face. The dredge deck jumps through so many hoops just to get completely destroyed by just about any interactive spell in the cube.
Ya, the supposed payoff cards are so easily dealt with in the format. So many hoops in drafting and drawing the right cards at the right time only to really just be a mediocre deck. I’d put up with that since it sure can be strong sometimes, it it is such a damper on the entire draft environment that it’s just not worth it.
Off the dredge deck topic but I got to cast an opponent's tibalt by spell jacking valki the other day, did not know I could do that until the option window popped up. Sweet interaction
CalebD seems to win with it. I have a 71% win rate in vintage cube and it's my worst deck.
If it was literally any other counterspell, he could just get there again. idk, it's been great for me
@superwulfi8150 memory lapse, swords to plowshares, fractured identity, oust, path to exile just straight up answer it. Any other interactive spell like bitter triumph, brazen borrower, would make it so that it definitely wont come out for at least a couple more turns. Like it's just so many things that have to line up and so many resources that need to be burned in order to get a creature that is not all that much better than a colossal dreadmaw.
44:48 - Rules question - can you keep the psychic frog in the graveyard because Grist also counts as a creature in this scenario, so you don't need to exile both for the nethergoyf escape?
yes
Yep
That first opponent truly had it all.
I was expecting opponent to play an Academy into LED and Brainfreeze.
the irony of forcing this deck and then being in the seat that kinda needed to force the deck based on how the packs broke is peak lsv value.
round 1 the opponent was really cookin, crazy deck. they probably didnt even draw their academy 😂
"But no no, I was gonna do more"
I love that after decades of magic, LSV still enjoys the game like us, common folks. pure joy lol
this deck actually seemed insanely good. Your opponent round 1 had a completely busted deck, and even then the stuff you were doing those games seemed impressive ignoring the absolute insanity on the other side of the table.
Watching a railroad draft is a lot different than the normal thoughtful drafts. I wouldn't mind having a "force x archtype" draft episode once a week.
Clearly the fire alarm went off because this deck is fire.
I was hoping for a p1p1 academy again to see if you could resist
Thank you for creating videos with strategies that you normally don't do, it really makes it more interesting for a lot of the viewers like me :)
Lol that fire alarm almost made me jump off the toilet. 😂
LSV having a blast playing the deck in the archetype he trash talked is poetic justice. Super sweet interactions!
"This deck is a little better than people give it credit for." - LSV
Are the "people" in the room with us now, LSV?
@LSV when my fire alarm went off with no explanation, it ended up being the dryer vent that was so backup up with lint it was starting to smoke at high heat levels. Just something to check.
3:28 "BK's not wrong" Better hope BK doesn't watch these!
At the end, everything becomes Crab.
47:45 - what am I missing, isnt Troll + Bestow Phoenix onto Ghast lethal?
Lol - nevermind!
The alarm went off because this dredge deck is just too hot!
Dredge in cube is the equivalent of shooting the moon
We finally did it! (Kinda). The key cards to make all of the vengevine/rootwalla stuff work are survival of the fittest and (to a lesser extent) bazaar. If you see those early, that's a good reason to give it another go.
The problem with dredge cards in cube is that they need to work in multiples.
Like an artifact deck would take more copies of Urza for consistency, but getting one Vengevine back is so much worse than 2-4
This video really sold me on Detective's Phoenix. Really low opportunity cost for such a powerful effect!
I’ve force drafted gaak 4 times on mtgo and have been pretty impressed. 2 trophies, a 2-1, and a 1-2. I think it’s a totally reasonable archetype, but if it’s ever contested it’s basically unplayable. I believe it’s best when you get some of the busted red three drops, they all play so well in the deck.
Good times! The phoenix is looking great these past few days so strong with the land cyclers in both directions. I like this over winston.
I was listening to this while driving and I nearly had a heart attack.
Forcing dredgevine! *literally no cards with dredge or vine in the deck*
Troll lsv
Dredgevine is a state of mind
“BK’s not wrong.”
3:36 This is LSV’s “I’m being kidnapped and held under duress” signal
"Forcing DredgeVine" - proceeds to pass Vengevine
25:43 casually queued into competitive edh
man that first match felt like lsv being 100% justified in his beliefs lol
Sometimes they just have Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, AND Sol Ring - lol.
“I’m gonna force dredge”
Proceeds to pass almost every card meant for the archetype and draft jund reanimator
Cube facts:
- Nothing wrong with a Mox
- Fire covenant is good, but we don't take it
- Deep Cavern Bat wheels
2:40 Territorial Jules
BK should be a weekly guest, at least love watching y'alls drafts
Says a lot when cards built for the archetype are still getting cut.
yeah but tbf how many times does LSV draft tinker but cut blightsteel or battleball its the same thing granted he might think those should be cut too
Tbf this June reanimator list was maybe the loosest definition of dredge one could have 😂
Really cool to see a new archetype being played. 🦀 is a house. Wouldn't mind seeing more of this because there might be more card combinations and it's nice to get the all the wheels. Last pick detective phoenix which carried multiple games at the end.
Poor Vengevine can't even make the cut in the Vengevine deck
This is so absolutely hilarious, thank you for your sacrifice to science 😂
9:45 SMALL HEART ATTACK
I think my only problem with this deck is that ultimately most of your wins came from just casting crabomination. Hogaak and co. just feel like a lot of hoops to jump through for less payoff than just jamming your big threats. On the other hand, some of the engines like wight of the reliquary, six, detective’s phoenix, and psychic frog are very strong. I can see the discard/graveyard archetype being a staple just without going all-in on dredge.
It's weird to me that he either cut or drafted around a decent portion of the dredge engines in the deck and people think it's the fault of the dredge cards.
He built a very loose dredge deck because he kept drafting reanimator, cut the major payoffs for dredge because he didn't really all-in on the cards, and people are surprised the deck doesn't perform as a dredge deck?
On the fire alarm I would say check it for bugs, we had one go off multiple times before I checked and there were some dead bugs in it.
Round 2 opponent had one of those decks that only your opponents can cast your spells thing going for it. Truly polar opposite matches from round 1 opp who looked like they got to bring their constructed vintage cube deck to a draft
The madlad finally did it.
At 44:44 can't you leave pyschic frog in the graveyard because grist counts for two types?
Fun to see this, and all the cards are always available. Personally I would ditch the frog + atraxa and focus harder on the archetype (Vengevine in) + some hand destruction and it would've been even better. Please hard force it again, was fun to watch once the graveyard popped off like that!
The fact that this deck isn't great but also gets wrecked by reanimator hate is rough.
I've had this archetype for a while in my, admitedly slightly weaker, cube and I've cut down a bit on graveyard hate. Especially mass grave hate like relic and endurance.
I'll also say things like vengevine and the blazing rootwala never worked out for me. Getting an aggressive version of the deck to work just requires too many moving pieces and there's not enough redundancy imo. On the other hand I've seen self mill decks with things like bazaar and dredger or hogaak + altar of dementia use thassa's oracle as a wincon and be quite powerful, especially alongside dread return.
edit: and tbh this deck fared not that badly since, let's be real, not that many decks could beat those game 1 draws.
The actual factual dredge mechanic is by far the most broken mechanic of all these gy synergies. I agree with your take on aggro versions; they are good because you can play multiple vengevine and attack for like 12 on turn 1 or whatever. Attacking with 1 4/3 in this format is cute and all but can easily be overpowered by a normal curve.
So, with Nethergoyf, could you have exiled two cards and then either Grist/Phoenix? It says "four types" so that would've been creature-planeswalker or enchantment-creature and left you with one additional card.
Excited for take 2 of this deck, feels like there’s actually some gems in here. Hogaak+Phoenix was definitely a thing
It would be cool to see the lands deck, pack 1 there was a late scapeshift into titania with a late zuran orb in pack 2
Crabominatin seems sweet. Especially if you can recur it.
Jesus Christ that first deck what the f. Anyways, i LOVED your deck here, it looked awesome to play.
Luis, thanks for posting every day. I watch your drafts when I’m iced up at physical therapy and they help the time fly by 😊
Actually really pleased to see this deck get vindicated. Glad we finally made it happen.
1 pick in and I'm already confused, isnt the DredgeVine deck jund aggro, so isn't Laelia the pick by a mile?
Fetches are still totally busted in dredge and laelia isn’t even that synergistic with the deck archetype. It’s not a cheap creature to trigger vengevine, it’s not a green or black creature to cast Hogaak, etc. definitely not first pick by a mile compared to a fetch.
Nah red usually a splash and Leila doesn’t do anything for the deck. Still good but the deck doesn’t need it at all,
@@giancarlocafaro6734 Fetches are amazing this I can't deny but I guess Red must be a minor color in this deck because this is like skipping Sheoldred for a fetch in my mind
@@gkeuler ohhh no I think that is not a correct evaluation of laelia in this situation. Sheoldred is miles ahead of laelia. Now, if laelia was a bombardiers, then that might be a closer comparison.
Edit: btw, this is precisely why dredge has historically not been a great archetype. Not only are the cards it needs not particularly powerful, it kinda disincentivizes you from picking good cards.
Im like 10 mins in, but the fire alarm came on because of this fire deck OBVIOUSLY
Faithless looting would have been like a 10 in this deck
He didn't pick the dredge enabler then said there wasn't enough to justify putting the dredge payoffs in...
Ok I did not expect the dredge vine deck to be so much fun
It was the Dark Depths Alarm 😂
I appreciate you going for it. I'm not sure this was even the best version of the deck but you managed to build it well given what was there. The grave hate in the current cube seems tough. I hope to see you try it some more in the future. Seems like some hand disruption would strengthen the deck quite a bit.
The cards for this sort of deck ending up both in the side board, or just not picked at all over better cards for the deck (and LSV offers valid reasons he didn't take such) but like, he had access to every gof and walla in the cube and didn't need any of them. The deck as it is showed its perfectly viable without any of those things in it.
Which says to me that all of those cards are a bad addition to the cube, that LSV thinking so is 100% right. That this deck as he drafted it is better perhaps then he/others give it credit for? Like it was competitive against other decks which were not "the nuts" or so on, which is more then fine for any vintage cube deck to be worth keeping cards for it in rotation.
But the rootwallas? The gofs? Vengevine and bloodgast? Yah. You could replace all of those (and ok maybe the goyfs are worth keeping i dunno) with other cards that are meant for this exact kind of deck, and make it both more viable while not having all those aforementioned cards essentially always being the last 1-3 cards you see in packs and no one ever plays.
Malevolent Rumble FTW … gunna need to add that to my vintage cube now.
might not be the best, but it surely works and seems like a blast to play
Dredge OP confirmed! Just as you suspected! 😁
I played in a league the other day and got DESTROYED by probably the best version of this deck I've seen. Had Hogaak, Six, Vengevine, the one that gets +1/+1 per permanent in the GY. . .deck was NUTS. . .he had that card up to...I think 13/14.
Now this was fun!
Great draft, really excited to see this ❤
When he brought back goyf shouldn't he not have been able to use psychic frog and grist?
I think if you’re trying to promote a “big graveyard” package like this, you might also need to de-emphasize cards that hate it out. Deathrites or Scavenging Ooze probably still fine, but Endurance, Soulguide, Relic of Progenitus kind of cards just randomly hating on an already sketchy archetype. Sure, you want to have answers for reanimator, but why is there still so much of it?
I've been waiting for this!
after watching these hijinks, i gotta request more dredge when possible
The one we have all been waiting for!
I find it both funny and a shame that Vengevine didn't even make the cut in the dredgevine deck.
This is what we've been waiting for.
Dredge with no dredge.
I usually pop on an LSV video when i am going to bed. Talk about a jump scare when that alarm went off lol. Maybe just edit it all out next time and explain why?
Why not Crop Rotation for Bazzar?
Its no the best archetype by a long shot but it did well here, honestly the first opponent had a 10/10 deck so
Right. Last time too probably.
So basically if they are going to have this dredge stuff they should get rid of the graveyard hate? it isn't powerful enough to survive through a peice or two of hate.
Your round one and three opponents were just filthy cheaters with their perfect draws 🤣
This deck was really quite strong, no?
Uhhh can we talk about how many tinkers this man opens yet? I mean I’ve been waiting for years for someone to explain this to me😅 😉
I came here for nonsense and wasn't disappointed again.
Malevolent Rumble sitting in the wrong pile, wow BK needs to joke on your for this one
Rumble wasn't in the wrong pile because the piles are not "spells vs creatures". The piles are "cards that contribute to the deck's curve vs cards that are typically not going to get played on curve"
@@Waghabond ew
When the archetype gets hosed by counterspells, removal spells, hand disruption, artifact and enchantment destruction, graveyard hate and most of the random hatebear cards, oh, and is beaten by faster decks and decks that do more powerful stuff, there does seem to be a bit of problem with the archetype.
Ok this was great content. A lot of novelty, very interesting, felt like I had to say it after commenting that Academy gets boring.
Why is there rite of flames in a format without duplicates ?
it's like a mono red version of lotus petal, sorta like how the spirit guides just play as bad lotus petals, some of the cards like yawgmoths will or Underworld Breach kinda need enough lil mana makers to go off
@@dinnerpartyempire So it's just a bad dark ritual ?
Crabvine
although the draft clearly went a different direction, I was genuinely disappointed that no lurrus showed in that pack 2 :)
the issue with this deck is that it's just a straight up legacy cube deck.
alright we’re forcing jund *third picks a blue card*
I think the take away from this is Modern Horizon cards are good.
I don't think you were winning round 1 no matter what deck you drafted, they had the nuts. The deck didn't look bad though, really.
Uro is pretty great with both of six’s abilities.
It’s nice for sure, but you ideally want to be able to reliably escape it and that was looking rough in this particular deck.