Scavenge Pumps and Turbos, Tech Tips!!
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2021
- Having issues with your Turbochargers scavenge pump? Blowing out your seals? Smoking up the neighborhood? Myths busted, questions answered! Here is your introduction to scavenge pumps 101.
#turbotechthursday
#workturbo
#workturbochargers
@workturbo
Great video. Need to replace my pump on my 350z turbo so this was great in helping with understanding!
Came for the knowledge, stayed for the art work.
my artistic skills are second to none, lol! Thank you!
@@workturbo best video out there concerning remote mounted turbochargers proper system formulations and schooling Sir
This is the greatest video explaining how a scavenge pump works! Thanks for making this video! I'm in the process of building my own midmount single turbo for my 350z Hr.
Awesome! Thank you!
@@workturbo great video thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge any chance I can email you pictures for tips thanks
@@irvingbar4569 yes sir! send any inquiry to support@workturbochargers.com and I will be happy to try and help. -Reed
Thank you for this video, this should solve my smoke problem on my Westfield turbo setup.
Welcome!
If I go to a standalone tank. I'm wondering if you ever heard of anyone using actual 2380 turbine oil Or where I can find info. I use it in my Garrett TPE 331 -10 on my Thrush Shits like 40 bucks a qt but I've got cases of it. I'm not a oil guru but seems like a better option then motor oil it's a lot cleaner and thinner so it flows faster than motor oil and handles extreme heat very well like 750 deg Celsius on every startup.
I have experimented in using turbine oil a long time ago. There should be more data on it avaiable to the public a little easier than 20 or so years ago when I was "younger and naive!" We know the temperature stability should be excellent, and I would hope the oil would meet all of the needs for a floating bearing (ball bearing turbo will be fine with it)...let me do some more research! I think I a good contact that should be able to help place some insight -reed
First you teased that you would name the one scavenge pump you recommend - then you don't. Please do! Excellent drawings. Learned allot, great advice - except for that "secret" scavenge pump thing... Also, recommended check valves, if you will.
Sorry about that Dale...I have all of the parts to do a follow up video, just lacking in time at the moment. The pump we have always used and recommended comes from RB Racing. They also have the correct check valves. This company has done a great job finding/creating oil scavenge solutions. rbracing-rsr.com
I learned so much form this Video! Im currently fabricating a sump tank for my setup Mid mount twin journal bearing setup! Appreciate you sharing this knowledge!
Thank-you for explaining all of this. your explanations are awesome. Cheers!
One question, do you think it would be beneficial to put a baffle wall in the sump tank?
I have never really thought of it...but any way to keep the oil in liquid form and focused around the suction location should make it work better!
Do you think running a vent right below the turbo is a better approach than venting a tank? If pump pulls vacuum then theoretically running a vent next to turbo should move more air/oil rather than just relying on gravity drain to the tank.
We have tested this back in 1997, and it works if you can get the vent into a functioning location without getting blocked by the oil flow. Its consistency was always our main quirk with this approach. Reed
Awesome info. Thank you sir. Wouldn’t have thought of the one way check valves or oil resivor. By chance where may I find a 4AN one way valve for the oil feed side? And how important is it to have the watsegate before the turbo vs the traditional built in watsegate on a remote mount turbo?
Sorry for the slow reply, John...been a bit busy in the shop! For the inlet check valve I recommend the viton 1 psi version from rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm Their valve has worked flawlessly for my customers. They also sell the only scavenge pump I recommend. As for your question on wastegates...that is a very cut and dry answer. Internal gates of the right size will work, but external gates placed in the right spot will always provide more power potential. I will cover this topic in a video soon ;)
@@workturbo No worries! Thank you for everything, I really appreciate you and your time for reading my messages and replying back! Link included 5*
Looking forward to the next uploads, especially on the Wastgates. 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
You covered the fact that over compensating for the oil flow when choosing the pump is a factor. Do you think there is such thing as too much pump? My intuition tells me that too much pump can't be good either as it would aerate the oil returning back to the engine. What would be a good remedy to eliminate all the air in the line between the pump and the valve covers?
It would most likely be worse for the pump itself than the engine, as a little bit of aeration introduced into the valve cover really wont matter as it will dissipate as it drains back into the pan. I have only seen this possibly being an issue with a dedicated suction stage on a dry sump pump, but it was an old pump with unknown history. Our customer's road race car has used a full mechanical stage to scavenge just one small T4 turbo and we have never had an issue with the turbo, pump or aeration (but it is returned into the oil can that has an engineered baffle system in it from the manufacturer). Hope this makes sense! Reed
Great video its super informative. I'm in a situation with a TT setup where I can't get the pump lower than the scav tank. In this case if the scav tank has a breather will it stop the pump from priming?
Good question. If the pump is pulling from the lowest portion of the tank, then it should not be an issue as there will always be "fluid" present in that area for the pump to pull against.
I have found that most of these pumps will fail to pull aerated fluids very well at all, so that is the main job the sump tank performs (collecting the liquid and putting in a place/state that the pump can deal with). So as long as your tank is of adequate volume and a fairly well engineered shape it will work as good as it can with the vent.
Now, if the pump struggles with pulling fluid, that may be a problem with the pump itself. Like I said, most wont pull like the manufactures state they will once they are in the "car environment". This is what bit me years and years ago...
Short answer is the vented tank is a requirement that the turbo needs, solely for gas expansionc. If the tank collects the oil and cannot "overfill" then you will have success IF the pump can pull the column of fluid out of the tank effectively.
Hope my rambling makes sense-Reed
@@workturbo thanks good answer I guess there are no definates here hey, I'll need to build and find out. What sort of flow rate should I expect to be going through a turbo? This would help me figure out if the scav tank drain is going to be submerged. I'm using 2x BW EFR 6758's, and I actually can't find that data anywhere.
@@adampentland9871While there is no published data on this (that I have anyway), our testing has seen as little as 16 oz per minute and as much as 60 oz per min depending on the oil temp, oil type/viscosity, oil feed line diameter and of course pressure. BorgWarner suggests no more than 4 bar oil pressure (60 psi) maximum and an oil weight of 10-40 in their Technical Training Manual fwiw. Reed
I have a twin turbo setup and a turbowerx exa pump and turbowerx said don’t use a sump tank just Y the two drains together into the pump with no sump
Not a good idea, just because of the gas expansion I went over in the video. It may work for a short amount of time, but eventually it will create an issue with the turbocharger. Been there before and see it regularly on turbo kits that install the lines in the same manner. -Reed
Any ideas on the scavenge pump on the 15+ subarus
Pump is mounted uptop mated to one of the heads
I am not familiar at all with the Subaru system, but I am sure it has been tested as adequate for the factory turbo from Subaru...
With that comes a bunch of questions if you start to upgrade the turbo...same to be said for the Porsche Type 930 and it's mechanical pump as well.
We have had quite a bit of Porsche testing over the years, and to say it is temperamental would be an understatement. I am sure the Subi will be the same way.
Whats your thoughts on running an in line filter (40 micron) between the pump and valve cover? Unless the turbo fails? Would this way as you explained also eliminate the use of a pump timer or some sort of timer to keep the pump to drain the system as the engine isn't running? Or is that what the check valves are used for?
No harm in running a filter at all, just make sure to use it in all of your flow testing. As for the timer, there is no need for it when you have a properly sized sump tank to take care of the "backflow" through the pump and residual oil in the turbos. You are also correct about the check valves, they will stop any siphoning from the engine or backflow from the return line. A side note, very few pumps are actually positive displacement, meaning a timer really does not help once the pump loses its prime. The column of oil after the pump usually sits in the line no matter if you leave it running or not...hence the use of the sump tank and check valves to keep this fluid from backflowing to the turbochargers. Sorry for the long response, hope it makes sense!
@@workturbo Huge help..! And it makes sense. Would you recomend a 40 micron filter will do the trick using a pump with a 2-3gpm? I don't want to impede on flow back to the engine.
Also what do you think about venting the sump tank to your oil catch can? The tank would be venting to atmosphere as well as grab its own vacuum source via an E-Vac fitting in the exhaust. Would that defeat the purpose? Because you would need a closed system in order to create a vacuum for the excess vapors created in the sump tank to escape?
This question also pertains to the oil catch tank itself. If you are creating vacuum in the tank and venting to atmosphere at the same time, how would that help exhaust oil vapors out of the engine?
Thanks in advance!! This video alone is a huge help. I'm determined now to get thing efficient and 100%.
@@Bye401K Without going into a big long message, the filter would be most applicable to a ball bearing unit, and I would put it before the pump. Reason being is most failures with a journal bearing unit do not put any metal into the oil. The bearings (in most units) are a bronze alloy (990 or 660 series alloys). What this means is they really never flake or create small residual contaminate. 99% of them just weld (or metal swap) their material to the shaft, collars or bearing housing vs. making any contaminate. Ball bearing units on the other hand can create trash...bearing balls, cage pieces etc. The filter before the pump would catch this and still allow the pump to work, possibly keeping a big oil mess from happening if you are on a race pass or hard pull etc. We simply put a mesh screen in the oil drain flange, works like a champ and super simple. I forget what mesh we have used, but I can look it up.
And for the vent...I do not see any harm in putting it into the breather tank. We have a few set up that way with no issues, and in all reality if you have the engine breathing entirely through that system, the sump tank vent will always be subject to the same conditions regardless of its location.
@@workturbo Perfect. Lotta info there man. I have a 40 filter I wanna use but just done want to choke the pump out. Not sure if that will be ok. Ive also seen these simple cone type screens. I was watching a vid on jet engines and there oiling systems. lol. A bit over kill.
What about using the scavenge stage on a dry sump pump? Does this still apply? My turbo is higher than my dry sump pump
Same rules apply...use a sump tank with a vacuum break, it will work perfectly. If your oil pan has several pickup stages at the very bottom, you can also drain back into the pan, just make sure the line is the correct size and flows down hill all the way to the pan. There can be ZERO up hill runs in the line. Thank you!
do you need a restrictor on journal bearing turbo like gt35?
Most of the time you will not need a restrictor on a JB turbo, the internal bearing clearances will "self regulate" the amount of oil passing through the turbocharger. There are exceptions to this, but for the most part you will want as much oil as possible to pass through the bearing structure to lubricate and most importantly COOL the bearing/shaft/housing etc. If your turbocharger is water cooled, you can run a restrictor. We have used .070" successfully over the years in our own cars (road race, drag race and street). Mainly these are on cars with very high oil pressure, usually over 40 at idle and over 80 at cruise rpm and approaching 100 psi at full rpm. If your car has lower pressure, you should not need to worry about the restrictor...just focus on a proper drain/scavenge/crankcase vent system and it should be great! A professional alternative to a restrictor is the new Turbosmart in line oil pressure regulator, which will keep the oil pressure at a consistent 40 psi at all times (assuming the engine will produce that). This is a good safe range for a GT35 that is seeing 10-15 psi of boost regularly with a high zinc oil. If you are pushing it harder, stay with as much pressure/flow as you can get! Here is a link to the regulator on our site www.workturbochargers.com/turbosmart-opr-v2-turbocharger-oil-pressure-regulator/ Hope this helps!
Great video. Was looking at your website, you dont actually sell scavenge pumps? I'm looking for a quiet pump. I was looking at the Turbowerx stuff, they have a qu but i dont know..
The reason we do not sell scavenge pumps is simple. There is not a good one on the market anymore. The one company we used to recommend quit selling them about a year ago. I have not found a quality replacement for that pump.
@@workturbo can you recommend a quiet one? It's for a BMW inline 6 motor with a bottom mounted s366. Return to oilpan. Really this is just a street car for some fun shenanigans. Nothing serious
hi, I am looking for advice to do a separate oil lubrication to the turbo on the Mitsubishi td04-10t, thanks
I would suggest using this pump from RB Racing, it will work perfectly! rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm use the 03-1034 pump. Make an oil reservoir that the turbo can gravity drain into, the pump can then deliver the oil to the turob inlets. Make sure it has enough capacity for your intended use. I would only suggest this type of install for short run/drag race installation, otherwise you will need to think about a second pump and an oil cooler. Good Luck!
@@workturbo A thousand thanks
@@workturbo my turbo project czcams.com/users/shortshUfb9i52g9Q?feature=share
@@fabio77809Hi, did you do the self contained oil feed? Im looking to do one for my honda Im new to performance stuff could use some good advice?
On a Ls swapped e36 twin turbo set up. Do I need this scavenger pump and set up,??
The only time you need a scavenge pump is when the turbochargers are mounted in a position where gravity cannot drain the oil back into the pan. It is always advisable to mount the turbocharger high enough in the system so it will gravity drain.
How do you know if you need an oil restrictor?
I am going to do a video on this topic soon, but the short answer is most turbochargers do not need any restriction IF the drain system is designed properly. The exceptions are Garrett ball bearing units, they are designed to run with a restrictor. Look for my video soon on this subject!
Any problems pulling a vacuum on the turbo seals?
We ran a vacuum pump on our single turbo SBF for years, pulled an average of 2-4" at full song going through the traps, never had any issues that we noticed anyway. That turbo was a journal bearing unit (106mm Garrett). We have since gone away from a vac pump because of a better engine block/piston setup (billet block!) so the architecture is much more sturdy and the piston/ring technology is years better. Thinking back on it, I wish I had tested this a bit more...there could be some harm pulling a vacuum on a turbo, especially in a newer ball bearing unit as they are not fully pressure lubricated (more of an oil spray)....so as of today, i would recommend going on the conservative side and not pulling much more than needed on the system.
So I built a tank and it was only vented to atmosphere. I took it for some drives and it was fine. This go around I started hitting boost and it squirted out of the vent all over the bottom side of my vehicle. Is this why you run the vent to the valve cover?
Yes...for this reason and also to keep it sealed from water/dirt/debris as well!
@@workturbo ok so maybe my oil pressure is just to high and I need to regulate it or get a bigger pump
@@jeepwk6.5L What turbocharger are you using?
@@workturbo shitty one 😂, on3 performance 80mm
Do I need a pump if my turbo is above the engine
If your oil drain can flow completely downhill to a spot that is above oil level and free from excess splashing of oil to impede the flow, no you do not need a pump. Make your return line as large as possible, and as direct as possible (no extra bends or angles) and it should work just right. Tell me what turbo you are utilizing and I will make sure your line size is adequate!
Can it hurt LS engine buy feeding oil back into valve cover like this?
Returning back to the valve cover has been done a lot here in my shop, but not on an LS (mainly Vipers). I took the time to make sure the return was in a location that would be as close to the drain back holes in the head as possible. I also made a small deflector to keep the returning oil from flooding the valve stem areas (deflected it down, as close to the drain passages in the head as possible) I do not see why this would not work on the LS, just put some thought into what is actually happening and make sure the system can deal with the extra flow.
Thanks mate very helpful
How can I contact you for assistance with my setup?
send us an email support@workturbochargers.com or go to our website www.workturbochargers.com and fill out the contact us form...you can also message us on facebook or instagram, @workturbo on both platforms. We stay pretty busy in the shop, but you can call 205-874-6608, if you do not get me please leave a message. I will call you back within a day or so. Email or messenger would be the quickest :) -Reed