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Lutheran Comparison: ELCA vs LCMC vs LCMS
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- čas přidán 5. 12. 2020
- Lutheran Denominations:
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ, and Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod are compared in this video to give you an overview about what Lutheran Churches believe.
As an LCMS member, I honestly feel like we couldn't be more different from the ELCA. Once you get past the name, we have more in common with Catholic or Reformed churches than we do with many ELCA churches.
By now, I think calling ELCA a "Christian denomination" is being EXTREMELY charitable...or foolish.
You of the LCMS don't accept the LGBTQ community and do not ordain women to the clergy...a lot like the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) ....
@@jonathanswift2251 Based, I wish the ELCA did the same. The ELCA just gets worse (ever since the LCMS split from them)
I was literally thinking that, it seems like the least protestant church out of all protestant churches.
I have to agree as a born and raised LCMS member!
Basically, anything goes in the ELCA. Really wish they’d drop Lutheran as they don’t teach the confessions
They should also drop Evangelical... and Church for that matter. They're really just "in America", much to their dismay.
Amen brother
Strongly agree, there is truly nothing “lutheran” about them.
Yeah, it’s really not even a denomination, just a loose organization of random congregations
@@bababadal2156 in America but not "for" America
I was baptized ELCIC but raised and confirmed LCC (LCMS's Canadian sister). I'd be really interested in seeing comparisons of American denominations to their Canadian counterparts. You do such a great, thorough job.
The most visible ELCA church in my town is a big purple building called HerChurch and a huge sign invites everyone to Celebrate the Goddess. All you need to know about ELCA. SMH.
Are you sure they're not Episcopalian? How can you tell?
@@dnzswithwombats LOL. Yes.
That "church" is..... unique....
@@mingledingle1556 you're right, he doesn't, but God does say in the Bible that he wants us to call him by he
Pray for them all!
Another helpful video! I've been getting better at understanding Lutheranism (mainly through your videos) and this filled in even more gaps for me.
Have you watched videos from Jordan Cooper (Just and Sinner)? He's a Lutheran pastor that covers confessional Lutheranism and other topics.
Concordia University Irvine (an LCMS school) preparing for a career in music ministry here. It's worth noting that in our communion service on campus, we always make grape juice available as an alternative to the wine. This is the case in most LCMS churches in this SoCal area as far as I know. The reasoning is to be accommodating to people with alcohol abuse issues and those who simply wish not to consume alcohol. Also, we've used leavened bread for communion on occasion. We usually use the wafer out of convenience. Great video!
It's not about what we "wish". It should be wine or nothing
@@Dilley_G45 Just reporting what LCMS churches that i attend practice and what’s being taught on an LCMS university campus
@@nathanramos3542 LCMS seems to fall off. But we don't have anything good here anyway. The closest to confessional Lutheran here is Anglican or Roman Catholic and the Anglican have often female "priests" and many allow rainbow stuff so atm it's Catholic service for me cause I refuse to stay home
The variety of local practices in the LCMS is a sign that something is wrong. It's always best to move practices closer to the Scripture as possible and not further away. But the LCMS is all over the map these days. Interesting. Ty
Yo props for including LCMC. Most people have no clue what that is.
Well they're lukewarm. Not as liberal as ELCA but still allowing heresies like women pastors. That's not biblical and therefore not Lutheran
Good video! I'd like to mention (as someone who grew up in the LCMS church) that when it comes to the use of grape juice or leavened vs. unleavened bread in communion, I've seen them used in every LCMS church I've been to. Some will also provide gluten-free wafers for those with allergies. They are not seen as "lesser" options in any regard, just as helpful alternatives for anyone who would prefer them.
No grape juice in any of the LCMS churches I ever attended...
LCMS is all wine, or non alcoholic wine, and just bread
@@jewey1894 The other option for "non alcoholic" wine is a single drop of wine diluted in water.
@@karlrovey huh I’ve never heard that one
@@jewey1894 This has been the preferred "non-alcoholic" option in the congregations I have attended. That way you can't argue that it isn't wine.
This was a very informative video. I've studied the history of all the different branches of Lutheranism and found it quite confusing. Thank you for the quick clear up. LCMS member here, but I do not bash anyone. At least you are going to church.
At least, but is Christ present? - fellow LCMS
@@swesleyc7 unnecessarily hateful.
God bless you brother...thanks for the information...may the Holy Spirit of the Lord give guiding...blessing in Jesus Christ sweet name from India🙏
Got to say...as an ELCA Pastor...that there is nothing particularly "Evangelical" "Lutheran" or even "Church" about my denomination any more. It's pretty much "anything goes"...except for orthodox Christian beliefs...over here.
Well if I was ordained in the ELCA, I would look at leaving. IT is not just a job. By staying you are supporting the overall denomination. That denomination is doing spiritual harm
Seriously, unless you’re going to start preaching against the ELCA, you’re leading people away from God. Something that does not go over well with Jesus
Join WELS bro
Then leave it. It’s heretical.
Left ELCA after 70 years when Pastor said Mohammed’s allah was the same a Our Triune God. For a spiritual leader she did not understand the Quran or that if she held the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God she is committing an error in Islam and the punishment is death.
That plus blessing homosexual marriage and accepting (also paying for clergy and their family) abortion and transgender medical expenses pushed me out.
Pastor please at least visit the LCMS where I have been welcomed, shepherded , and made coordinator of the altar guild in 3 years.
Luther stablished one set of teachings with one philosophy I don’t understand why the branches call themselves Lutheran if they don’t keep to what Luther taught.
I completely would agree. Which of these are the imposters? Isn't one of them just a wishy washy go with the flow? Is it the ELCA?
@@enkinightmare3881 Yes it is. WELS and the LCMS share a common Lutheranism with some arguments but, the Bible is paramount in both. That can not be said of the ELCA
@@jongartner2840 thanks Jon.
One could argue that Luther in the early 16th century didn't directly address the 21st century challenges, issues and changes faced by society, individuals and churches. In fact, he couldn't have even accurately imagined the world 500 years in the future. The spectrum of Lutheranism today reflects how people over time have used Luther's teachings to infer their application today. Just as there is bell curve range of attitudes on many subjects by any group of people, there is also a similar variety in how Lutherans have evolved and responded to change since 1517. Ironically, even at its earliest point, Luther's followers and their confession-based doctrines and creeds were the result of a similar evolution and response to changes in the Roman Catholic Church and society over the previous 1200 or so years. People in 1517 were no longer content to follow the same church and its teachings as they had in, say, AD 400. Why wouldn't Christians in 2023 also have different and varied expectations from a church body as compared to Christians in 1517?
@@73honda350Fundamentalists like to believe we just ignore Scripture and Luther’s teachings, and they prefer to keep thinking that. So, your logical and intellectual response will probably fall on deaf ears. 😊
Oh my god, how times have changed since I was a kid. I wish the ALC was still around.
If it was, my congregation would still be in it.
I am a member of the ELCA. Honestly we can be pretty cringe but I have a bit more nuanced veiw of the church. They can be a bit too theologically liberal and morally lax but they still are (mostly) genuine Christians who worship and serve God and are one of the only real messangers of the Gospel in my area.
Good to know that there are true Bible following Christians in the ELCA
There are more messengers but the ELCA has gotten more worse when it comes to gay marriage and female pastors l (which both contradict what the bible says). Yet that doesn't mean that there aren't conservatives/non heretical people in the ELCA.
@@brendonpremkumar8207 Based
Thank you
Same here! The ELCA has problems, but they’re our problems to fix. It’s pathetic to see such hatred from other Christians, much less other Lutherans, toward us when we let them worship as they please…?
I have been restoring the church built by my great grandfather and a small group of Norwegian immigrants to Jarlsberg (Bear Lake) Ontario in 1872. They were Lutherans so this little church (holds a max of 40) is now owned by the ELCIC - Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. Way back I think it was associated with the Missouri synod. We still have services in the summer, but now this former little Scandinavian immigrant village is a part of “cottage country”, with only a handful of descendants still present there. I wondered what the relationship is to the American Lutheran church, so thank you for the explanation. I think that the ELCIC is associated with the ELCA. In Canada the ELCIC is in full communion with the Anglicans.
With regard to Open Communion, we would change the "Red X" to a "Grey Checkmark" for LCMS for this reason: While it is the stated position of the Missouri Synod to practice Close Communion, the last two Missouri Synod Churches that we have attended (Faith Community in Las Vegas; Trinity Lutheran in Holly Hill, Florida) have both practiced Open Communion. We understand that this is a sticking point in the fellowship talks currently ongoing between LCMS and WELS.
In a Florida LCMS church, a conversation between pastor and communicant would have to be done prior to church and answer in the affirmative for three questions. Still, it is to the pastor’s discretion
@@robertdouglas6089 We can only speak from our experience at Trinity Lutheran in Holly Hill, Florida (with respect to Florida LCMS churches). Pastor Sizemore, just prior to the distribution, invited all present who were capable of self-introspection to come forward for Holy Communion. We were shocked as we had introduced ourselves earlier as relocating to the area from a WELS congregation and wanted to see what the practices of his church were. We were the only two people in the church, outside of children, who did not receive Communion that day. Regardless of where the LCMS church is located, this is the statement from LCMS' own Committee on Theology and Church Relations: "The official position of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is that not only are members of other Lutheran churches with whom we are in altar and pulpit fellowship invited to commune with us, but also that in certain extraordinary cases of pastoral care and in emergencies members of churches not in fellowship with us may be given Communion." This was not the case, at least for us. We know about Close Communion because the first Lutheran church we worshiped in and attended new members classes was at St. John's Lutheran (LCMS) in Lexington, KY. Further, we did at least expect that in the invitation there would be a reference such that the communicant had an understanding that this was the true presence of the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. There wasn't. This happened in January of 2019. We, obviously did not return to that church, because of this practice, and we don't know if that is still what is being practiced there now. However, this is consistent with the last LCMS church that we attended prior to coming to Florida. That church was Faith Lutheran in Las Vegas. Virtually the same type of invitation.
@@ChristianTravelers the key phrase is "extraordinary cases of pastoral care", another one often used is "pastoral discretion"....
The official position of Synod is to "encourage close(d) communion" but they can't enforce anything due to congregational rights to autonomy -- probably a flaw in that design..
The main issue at hand is that the Missouri Synod is a much larger churchbody than WELS, large enough to have several (albeit mainly two) political factions within the Church vying for control of St. Louis and the future direction of Synod. These are the Confessional Party ("conservative", defenders of traditional liturgy, faithfulness to Book of Concord and 'purity of doctrine' above all else), and the Missional Party ("liberal", embraces contemporary worship and the charismatic movement, emphasis on evangelism and ecumenism above all else). This is why both open and close(d) communion are practiced.
.. The fact is, many Missional LCMS pastors (with good intent mostly) practice a more "open" table than their more right-wing counterparts due to an understanding of it being a matter of pastoral discretion and they regard open table invitations to be more winsome in the evangelism department (which to them is more important than confessionalism)... maybe misguided, but can be forgiven in light of the idea behind it.
@@vngelicath1580 I know of one congregation that became ELCA in response to a pastor's overzealous position on closed communion. They were in a college town and the pastor would only commune members of his congregation but would turn away everyone else, including those who were members of other LCMS congregations. This resulted in several college students going months without communion. Eventually the congregation decided to close and re-open with a different name and affiliate with the ELCA.
Close(d) communion is the official position of the LCMS though (even though the saltwater districts like to pretend otherwise).
Between WELS and the LCMS yes but, if a ELCA member came in my father would not allow them to take communion. In fact my father would announce that if vistors were not of the LCMS please do not come forward for communion. GOD knows what each person does
Bravo, well done sir - I've sat in each of the Lutheran Congregations mentioned over the course of my life and yes, WELS and Apostolic Lutheran are the most conservative - "Lutherans in America" Mark Grandquist, Luther Sem
One of these denominational logos was designed in Windows 2001 clip art. The others were made in Windows 95 paint.
Seems accurate as far as it goes. One slight correction to the initial slide: a number of congregations are both NALC and LCMC, so comparing the two side-by-side overstates numbers of churches when compared to the non-NALC/non-LCMC groups.
As a member of an ELDoNA Lutheran church, I'd love to see you do a video on us and our history, also our disagreement with Universal Objective Justification. You seem to be very fair in your assessment of other groups, so I believe you would do us justice.
I grew up in Lutheran churches and have attended some as an adult. All did baptism by pouring. I’ve never, ever heard of a Lutheran church using sprinkling as baptism. The church I attended from ages 8-16 used a shell. I know for sure because I didn’t get baptized until I was 8 and I remember it.
I think the idea of a church allowing it is to note that a convert doesn't need to be rebaptized, if it was done through sprinkling in a trinitarian church. Lutherans like many other denominations stress the idea of "one Lord, one faith, one baptism," and discourage rebaptism accept in extreme cases where it wasn't done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and in certain sects like the Mormon church. It's supposed to be symbolic of the sprinkling of blood by priests under the Mosaic Law, and I imagine it's only done in some Roman Catholic or Orthodox churches where that symbolism is of prominent, cultural importance.
Same. Never heard of sprinkling before
It's meaningless whether one pours or sprinkles...There are greater issues to be dealt with....
I thought it was grape juice as a child, and no one believed that it was wine. Sent shivers down my spine and I was really taken aback during the experience. Considering exploring the Lutheran church again in my adulthood. Never baptized.
Hi, I'd encourage you to explore your faith in a Lutheran church that sticks to the bible, and yes, getting baptized is a wise thing. Jesus said "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16). Blessings in your faith journey. Col.
What happened to the days where each denomination held true to its own confessional doctrines? Sad.
Some LCMS churches, at least the one I went to, do allow use of unfermented grape juice for people who can't drink wine for medical reasons or who are recovering alcoholics
Re only using fermented wine in communion in the LCMS, an exception is made for alcoholics. The LCMS congregation in which I grew up made this accommodation for a member who was a recovered alcoholic.
Sola Scriptura turned out to be the biggest pick-and-choose your own beliefs.
I’m not a Lutheran but definitely a Sola Scriptura believer. There are some things we hold with a closed fist, most things with an open hand that is not blatantly denied by Scripture.
Confessions of faith are still extremely important and the authority of the Church is still there. But ya, no man can place himself over God’s word
All the LCMS churches I've been to offer the option of non-fermented juice for communion as well as wine.
The ELCA makes me sad. It's truly a tragedy that the leadership took that Synod the way it did. I think there are still faithful Lutherans in the ELCA. I pray that maybe the ELCA will do a 180 as their church rapidly shrinks.
Oh yeah it is don’t worry. We just are trying to avoid being as backward as the Missouri Synod
@Freed4 Don't worry because it is shrinking or doing a 180?
How is the LCMS backward?
@@chemnitzfan654 Exclusive communion and the exclusion of women from positions of power such as church council. No Christian, especially not another Lutheran of another denomination, should be excluded from communion. That is wrong to me. I can maybe understand excluding women from being ordained, but not from other positions. No biblical basis for that.
The ELCA is beginning a 180, or at least rapidly pumping the brakes. We know we are shrinking, but the churches that are a part of the ELCA and ignore the lectionaries and gay teachings they push out are thriving and growing. I would know, my father is an ELCA pastor.
@Freed4 Does scripture not say women shouldn't have authority over men in the church?
Should we commune people who don't believe what we believe about the Supper?
Hopefully people who are faithful Lutherans are able to make an impact. Even something moderate like the LCMC is better than Nadia Bolz Webber.
Just because you disagree doesn't make ELCA pastors or parishioners inferior or unchristian. I think this kind of judgment, likely without first hand knowledge, is unbiblical and unhelpful at best..@@chemnitzfan654
You got the Aflc I go there but I don't agree with everything but my loving church family is there and that kind of where I got saved so I stay .
Sounds like I can add the ELCA to my list of potential denominations to join, if I ever moved to the US.
May as well be Unitarian.
@@HasanibnSabah I am, actually, as it's the denomination that I'm currently affiliated with, here in the UK... along with the Quakers!
FYI the WELS is generally pronounced just like the word "wells"
And LCMS is pronounced Lick-ems!
(Joking)
@@JoelRipke Yours is a joke, but AFLC is often pronounced "Aflac."
@@karlrovey With a sister who works at their headquarters and a father who is an AFLC lay pastor and myself having done some home missions work with them, I think I can safely say with authority that I've never heard anyone who goes to an AFLC church pronounce it Aflac..... LOL. But their college-level school, AFLBS (prior to becoming FLBC) was pronounced "afulbus." WEIRD!
@@jessicamccarlson I've heard it from a congregation that switched from AFLC to AALC.
@@karlrovey Okay, what state are they in? That could play a part in it too. With a headquarters in MN, closer congregations are more likely to have a representative visit who then would use the more common lingo vs those who are further out. Not saying it is impossible, but having personally visited about 100 AFLC congregations over the years I've only heard the "Aflac" thing as a joke. Thanks for your reply!
As an LCMS member I would say that I have always seen baptism by pouring, although since mode of baptism doesn't matter for us sprinkling wouldn't generate much comment either way.
I was raised Lutheran. I'm not sure which one we were. I had a deal with my mom that if I got confirmed I could make the decision to keep going or not. I attended one more service then stopped going.
LCMS consecrates Deaconess position after specific theological coursework.
They also have district Presidents which was ignored by the video
So nothing about the Association of Free Lutheran Churches? Also a very conservative body.
Though the ELCA does practice a somewhat episcopal form of church government, it would be wrong to say that it received apostolic succession through the Anglicans. Lutheran bishops from other episcopal ordered Lutheran churches (for example, the Church of Sweden) participated in the first episcopal ordinations which then enabled the ELCA to jointly participate in ordinations with the Episcopal Church. I know it's a bit of a technicality, but it was important at the time.
Thanks for commenting MJ. The statement forming the agreement, Called to common Mission, said the following, which is what I refer to. It did in a real way change the way that episcopal ordination is viewed in the ELCA.
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America agrees that all its bishops chosen after both
churches pass this Concordat will be installed for pastoral service of the Gospel with this church’s
intention to enter the ministry of the historic episcopate. They will be understood by The Episcopal
Church as having been ordained into this ministry, even though tenure in office of the Presiding Bishop
and synodical bishops may be terminated by retirement, resignation, disciplinary action, or conclusion
of term. Any subsequent installation of a bishop so installed includes a prayer for the gift of the Holy
Spirit without the laying-on-of-hands. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America further agrees to
revise its rite for the “Installation of a Bishop” to reflect this understanding. A distinction between
episcopal and pastoral ministries within the one office of Word and Sacrament is neither commanded
nor forbidden by divine law (see Apology of the Augsburg Confession 14.1 and the Treatise on the
Power and Primacy of the Pope 63). By thus freely accepting the historic episcopate, the Evangelical
Lutheran Church in America does not thereby affirm that it is necessary for the unity of the church
(Augsburg Confession 7.3).
19. In order to receive the historic episcopate, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America pledges
that, following the adoption of this Concordat and in keeping with the collegiality and continuity of
ordained ministry attested as early as Canon 4 of the First Ecumenical Council (Nicaea I, A.D. 325),
at least three bishops already sharing in the sign of the episcopal succession will be invited to
participate in the installation of its next Presiding Bishop through prayer for the gift of the Holy Spirit
and with the laying-on-of-hands. These participating bishops will be invited from churches of the
Lutheran communion which share in the historic episcopate. In addition, a bishop or bishops will be
invited from The Episcopal Church to participate in the same way as a symbol of the full communion
now shared. Synodical bishops elected and awaiting installation may be similarly installed at the same
service, if they wish. Further, all other installations of bishops in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in
America will be through prayer for the gift of the Holy Spirit and with the laying-on-of-hands by other
bishops, at least three of whom are to be in the historic succession (see paragraph 12 above). Its
liturgical rites will reflect these provisions.
Hi MJ, do you have an article that discusses the Church of Sweden's participation in the ELCA's episcopal ordinations? I've tried searching but can't seem to find that.
Okay, so it's right there in what you've quoted.
"These participating bishops will be invited from churches
of the Lutheran communion which share in the historic episcopate.
In addition, a bishop or bishops will be invited from The Episcopal
Church to participate in the same way as a symbol of the full
communion now shared."
My point was that Lutherans didn't receive the historic Episcopal from the Episcopal Church, but from other Lutheran Churches. So they didn't receive anything uniquely Anglican. But, yes, Episcopal bishops did participate.
I may have been wrong about Swedish participation in the first installation of an ELCA bishop in the historic episcopate. The first installation was that of Mark Hanson as presiding bishop on October 6th 2001. The Lutheran bishops installing him were the Rev. Medardo Gomez Soto, bishop of the
Salvadoran Lutheran Synod, San Salvador, El Salvador; the Rev. Maria
Jepsen, bishop of the Hamburg Diocese, North Elbian Evangelical Lutheran
Church, Hamburg, Germany; the Rt. Rev. Owdenburg M. Mdegella, bishop of
the Iringa Diocese, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania; the Rev.
Ambrose Moyo, bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Zimbabwe,
Bulawayo; and the Rev. Julius Paul, bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran
Church in Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. Three of these would have been in the historic line. I'm not sure which. It's likely that one of these would have been in the Swedish line though, but you'd need to research that.
@@melaniejohnson4761 Happy Pentecost! Can you provide me with a reference where I can access this information? It's been very interesting to read. Thanks 😊
I would describe LCMS baptismal practice as “pouring.” I understand that most see little difference between “pouring” and “sprinkling.” I have seen “sprinkling” in UMC churches.
LCMS churches will open communion to non memebers, provided they have an understanding of what they are receiving and why it's important. Folks will usually just need to touch base with the pastor before service
Again you do excellent work. Thanks.
I appreciate hearing it from you, Willy!
I don't get how the ELCA can call themselves Lutheran. They don't follow the Lutheran confusion. They should drop Lutheran from the name
Agree 100%
They should absolutely drop the "Evangelical" too.
@@pre-debutera6941 They are considering it, due to the word's association with the extreme right wing. We had an excellent sermon this morning about ways we can evangelize.
I'm lcms. It's not perfect though. If I could change one thing it would be to get rid of congregational polity and bring back episcopal polity. We should have priests and bishops.
100%
There is also the ELDONA.
Interesting, thanks. Since 1517 the history of the Protestant movement has been all about differences in belief and practice. There are differences in belief and practice within the a Roman Catholic Church itself where millions of members practice birth control, don’t condemn their LGBT family members, don’t practice confession, etc., etc. The most common trait is everybody thinks they are the ones doing it right.
My local ELCA church does not practice "open communion". Communion is restricted to the baptized. That's not that rare amont ELCA churches.
The main differences between ELCA and LCMS are rooted in different history. The LCMS rejected church union with Reformed Christians in Germany in the 19th century. OTOH, the ELCA is a far older American denomination in its origins (and never party to that controversy), going back to before the Revolution (remember Gettysburg Seminary? It is still an operational seminary, not just a place on a battlefield).
The ELCA tends towards Lutheranism colored by Pietism, whereas the LCMS tends towards being quasi-Calvinist at times, up until very recently where it began to take on a generic Baptist/Evangelical coloration.
Requiring baptism is still considered a form of open communion. Some people differentiate by calling communion where a person needn't be baptized "radically open."
The problem is that the terms are used differently in different denominations. For Lutherans, closed communion means you have to be part of the denomination. For Independent Baptists, closed communion means you must be a member within the particular local church to participate.
@@ReadyToHarvest "Open Communion" isn't how anybody in the ELCA actually talks about the practice.
OTOH, you won't find many LCMS calling their own practices "closed communion". The LCMS not infrequently will commune other Christians who have accepted that the Lord's Supper is a sacrament that is the body and blood of Christ. It's not strictly limited to church membership. The pastor decides who receives communion ultimately, just as is the case in the ELCA.
@@Magnulus76 Yes, most denominations just say they practice communion, or divine service, or Lord's Supper, often only the theologians will classify what type it is. For the ELCA though, it's always classified as Open Communion. For the LCMS, officially classified as closed, but as you say, in practice some do have open communion which is controversial. WELS is more consistently closed communion.
I'll have to disagree on that point, at least in my congregation. We are still very 19th century. We just changed hymnals in the last decade from the 1946 version.
And you need a course in Biblical studies the ELCA is not a church of GOD but, of man
My lcms church offers non alcoholic wine, but not grape juice for communion. I completely agree with this for alcoholics or people who just prefer to not drink alcohol. It's wrong to only offer alcoholic wine...
Are you going to, or have done a video about ELDONA synod? I just heard about them and was curious
They are briefly mentioned in the next video on this channel. No full feature yet. They are rather small.
@@ReadyToHarvest next on after this video?
The one releasing on Sunday.
I hadn't heard of ELDONA, so I looked it up and found this video: "Difference between ELDONA and LCMS - Justification"
LCMS actually has a mixture of congregational polity and episcopal polity. The churches are organized geographically into 35 districts. Each district is overseen by a district president, which is analogous to the role of Bishop. However, each congregation is self-governed and resolutions made by district presidents or the Synod president are mostly advisory not authoritative if not according to scripture or if it's inexpedient for the congregation.
It's commonly referred to as modified congregational polity, but limited episcopal polity is a more accurate term for it since the structure and hierarchy of episcopal polity is present, but the authority of the bishops is limited.
Ready for ELCA membership to dwindle to nothing.
Leaned towards to the LCMS 🥰
PLEASE slow down. We're not all upper grads.
The ELCA is lost
American Lutheran ELCA bishops don't have Apososlic Susession, as far as I know.
Your videos are informative and very well done. However in this video you have the modes of baptism backwards. All three accept sprinkling as valid, but primarily administer baptism by pouring or immersion. Lutherans have never baptized by sprinkling and I'm not sure where you got that information.
ELCA rubrics: "The action of baptism may be immersion of the candidate in one of its several forms or the pouring of water on the candidate's head." "The candidate is immersed into the water, or water is poured on the candidate's head."
LCMS rubrics: "The pastor pours water three times on the head of each candidate."
There are no provisions in the rubrics that allow for baptism to be administered by sprinkling -- outside of, perhaps, an emergency context.
Additionally, the ELCA only uses non-fermented wine or grape juice in addition to wine -- never as a replacement of it. The primary document on worship states that, "...this church uses bread and wine in the celebration of the Lord's Supper." (The Use of the Means of Grace). It then goes on to specify that grape juice may be consecrated *alongside* the wine, but not as a substitute for wine, and that the preference is actually to commune under one kind rather than consecrating both.
I'll also point out that in your baptism compilation video, all four of the Lutheran examples were administered by pouring -- three with a shell and one with a cupped hand. From my perspective as a Lutheran, the most surprising examples of baptism modes were the ones that employed just a little dab of water (mostly Methodist and Reformed/Presbyterian, I think). Why? Because I'm used to a more generous amount of water being poured or the candidate actually being immersed. Valid, yes, but rather stingy and missing the fulness of the symbolism.
Agree. I have attended ELCA churches and have been an LCMC member for 20 years. Of all the LCMC and ELCA churches I have visited (many), I have never seen baptism by "sprinkling" and just about always have witnessed baptism by "pouring" --water flowing from a pitcher or from cupped hands onto the (usually) child's head.
It looks like you still haven't done one comparing LCMS to WELS. There are basically three points of disagreement. Nature of the office of minister,, LCMS defines minster specifically as a pastor while WELS considers anyone with a church calling to be minister; Nature of what fellowship means,, LCMS has closed communion, as does WELS but WELS tends to associate themselves even less with other church in other areas; and women's role in the church, neither church ordains women as pastors but WELS also prohibits women from voting on church matters.
I am from India 👍🏼 member of old LCMS 👍🏼1910 onwards 😍 but there is hardly any Lutheran teachings now a days 😂 our seminary also adopted ecumenical and Episcopal mixture so it's natural we shall end up with catholism soon
Where does the Independent Lutheran Diocese (ILD) FIT IN?
I grew up CLC, pretty much catholics but the pastor can marry. Total crazies.
Can you do one on the ELDONA.
Does the LCMC have ANY official stances? Like, c'mon guys, you you just here to be the middle ground?
As an ELCA member, your first problem sums up our denomination’s issues in a nutshell. The vast majority of us are mainstream Lutherans with a VERY slightly more nuanced view of things like human evolution and how we should treat gay people even if we think it’s a sin, but holding to all Biblical essentials. However, we have a tiny minority like that whack job “Pastor” who melted down purity rings, and our national leadership does nothing about it. 😢
thank you for this
Just a note: Many Lutherans do not consider ELCA to be Lutheran. Some don't even consider them Christian.
Anyone here say ELCA as E L C A or say it as EL-CAH? I say and pronounce it EL-CAH
El-cah
Interesting. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, not long after the 1988 merger that created the ELCA, I was a ministry executive moving from an LCMS environment to one in the ELCA. At that time, most in the LCMS used the acronym pronounced "EL-KAH" to refer to the ELCA, but this was never used within the ELCA; and some in ELCA were taken aback when they first learned of this. I feel it was a bit of a (sub)conscious slight or dismissal of the ELCA by the LCMS due to attitudes over doctrinal differences. After all, I've never heard anyone refer similarly to the LCMS as "LIK-MIS" or "LEK-MES". But here in WI, the WELS is always referred to as "WELLS", but they even encourage this because they once used "come to the well" frequently in any printed or online information about their denomination.
Wonder if you've heard of the CLC (Church of the Lutheran Confession). I believe its an off shoot of WELS.
They are nuts, i grew up in a CLC church. The pastor told me that dinosaur bones where placed in the ground by satan to tempt man away from god.
Talks too fast and uses the abbreviations too often to follow the conversation.
Too many splits
This holds true in the Presbyterian Church, too!
LCMC 💒
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” - John 3:3
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” - Matthew 3:11
“That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” - Ephesians 1:12-13
“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” - Acts 8:36-37
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” - John 6:63
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” - Romans 8:1
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” - 2 Corinthians 5:17
“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” - 2 Timothy 2:19
As you note at 0:26, it's a common claim that the WELS is "more conservative" on account of the roles they allow to women in the church, or rather the lack thereof. This, however, is a result of their poor understanding of the priesthood/pastorate: that the Office of Holy Ministry is not particularly instituted above other forms of ministry. Due to this, functioning as a Sunday school teacher (for example) is seen as a ministry on par with the pastoral office, and thus women cannot fill it as women cannot be pastors. I would argue that on account of their denial of the distinctly extraordinary character of the pastoral ministry, they are more theologically-liberal than the LCMS. The ecclesiastical role they afford to women is simply a distracting consequence of their understanding of the ministry.
Tbf, the official WELS (or at least original) teaching is that while the Office of the Called and Ordained (Holy Ministry) is divinely instituted, the pastorate per se is not.
The modern LCMS equates OHM with "Pastor" (which is why many see called and ordained men currently without a call to a parish as not being within the office of the ministry: district presidents, missionaries, ordained professors, etc)
WELS sees the ministry of the called and ordained as divine, but the particular "function" or "form" by which it manifests is by human right.
There are many in the WELS who misunderstand this at the popular level and argue for all kinds of absurdities (women communing other women etc). But at the official level, this is an aberration.
Historically, WELS and Walther's Missouri agreed on this point. Modern LCMS and popular-level WELS are both wrong.
With regard to what gender can be a "called worker" within the WELS: Pastors (male only), Teachers (male or female), Staff Ministers (male or female), Congregational Assistants/Evangelists (male or female). All of these positions can be "called" by a WELS congregation and are considered as having a Divine Call. There is a provision that, however, a female in a "called" position may not be in position of authority over any male.
A note for women presiding over men. That is considered unbiblical for the woman to preach over men. It is not on par as a Sunday school teacher as the students are kids, not men. I’ve known several WELS churches to do this.
@@robertdouglas6089 We would be in agreement over the concept "... for women presiding over men. That is considered unbiblical for the woman to preach over men." Women are not allowed to preach or teach to men in a WELS church. In the WELS, this is taken to the point that women may not vote in congregational meetings because this would mean that they may be exercising some authority over men by doing so. Outside of the Amish and Mennonites, we are not familiar with any other denomination that holds to this understanding of headship. You are also correct that a female Sunday school teacher in the WELS can teach boys who are not considered men, and this falls under the 4th Commandment as clearly seen in Luther's explanation in the Large Catechism.
@@vngelicath1580 As an Evangelist and Congregational Assistant (Ray) within the WELS, I would agree that "women communing other women" would be an absurdity. In my 26 years in the WELS I have not seen anything like that. I would think it is incumbent on someone who has direct knowledge of an error like this, to point to specifics so that a circuit pastor or a district president can correctly apply church discipline in the matter. I'm personally confused as to who these "popular-level WELS" are. Specifics?
The ELCA does not ordain deacons. They are consecrated.
So many wrong descriptions of ELCA here, and overlooks/glosses over that Elca is only Lutheran church body in global communion with about 94% of world’s other Lutherans. Elca is congregational, and not part of episcopal (though in communion with Episcopalians). Elca is also closer to Catholic Church in much, including formal agreement with the Catholic Church.
Here's what the ELCA says of their own church polity: From a church polity or organizational perspective, the ELCA is unique because it is neither congregational nor hierarchal. In terms of polity, CBCR provision 8.11 states: “This church shall seek to function as people of God through congregations, synods, and the churchwide organization, all of which shall be interdependent.” download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/ELCA_Church_Council_Governance_Policy_Manual.pdf
Because the ELCA has bishops, their polity is a form of Episcopal Polity. Here's what was said when they agreed to "Called to Common Mission": Saltzman said "there is nothing in 'Called to Common Mission' implying that we must adopt historic episcopal succession in order to be recognized as a church by the Episcopalians. There is every awareness, though, that we are adopting episcopal succession only for the purpose of showing that we are in full communion with them. Adopting an episcopal polity simply shows how that visible communion is expressed."
www.elca.org/News-and-Events/3557
I don't believe anything is this video is incorrect, feel free to watch my video on ELCA for a fuller view of it, this video is intended to be a small overview so it of course will not mention everything about the denomination.
@@ReadyToHarvest the ELCA bishops are elected by local churches, typically within a geographical area (there are 65 synods within ELCA, grouped by geography with exception of Slovak Synod which is tied together by Slovak language/heritage throughout US).ELCS bishops serve as administrative function and ecumenical ties to other religious groups and lead their synods. As the only US Lutheran group in the LWF, it shares a global (elected) Lutheran Bishop with 95% of the world’s Lutherans (LCMS and others are not in communion with the overwhelming majority of Lutherans around the globe) ELCA is not part of Anglican structure nor any connection other than shared clergy option if congregations determine and open communion with Episcopalian churches (btw Anglican and Episcopalian are not the same). It is true ELCA churches have variety of styles, many closer to Catholic practices and use of terms like mass, parishes, use of incense, first communion at younger ages, sign of the cross is regularly part of ELCA churches as is using word catholic in the creeds. Sbe due to a large number of congregations in the ELCA have historical roots from Sweden, Norway, Denmark (and many German too) it part why so many Lutheran churches have the name “First English” as they started to speak English in the US. The oldest existing church building in the US was a Swedish Lutheran church, now Episcopalian parish. Hundreds of ELCA congregations were originally part of LCMS, most leaving in the 1970s to pre ELCA bodies. Now less common, though occasionally still see congregations leaving their church affiliation to join ELCA
I not a fan of Protestant churches anyway but even Luther would hate the ELCA they thrown anything under the bus
LCMC logo looks like Amogus.
What does he mean by mainline?
czcams.com/video/yT7sZQG886I/video.html
@@ReadyToHarvest I appreciate it. I looked up one of these "ELCA" churches and they were basically Pagan/Hinduism/Gnostic. Of course not all of them are like this. Basically "Mainline" is anything goes, woke, political leftism for the most part. In some instances, straight up an entirely different religion from Christianity.
@@enkinightmare3881 Luther would reject the ELCA as such
@@jongartner2840 thanks Jon. I would agree.
You should do one on each of the rites of the Catholic Church
I really wish the LCMC were more prominent … both of the other two have serious problems for me. Plenty of Lutherans believe in evolution but don’t want a church saying things like “God the mother.”
I wouldn't waste my time with lcmc
@@vester7457 Because you’re probably a hardline conservative who’s fine with the LCMS position on things like a literal reading of Genesis … many of us are not.
I...don't understand why the conservative wing is called "Conservative" but the liberal/progressive/some-other-adjective wing is called "Mainline." Those do not seem to be directly-contradictory adjectives, so it's like you're describing an X-axis where one end is labeled "grainy" and the other end is labeled "orange."
By labeling it in this way, are you trying to express the thought that MOST Lutherans are liberal/progressive/whatever, and that a small minority are conservative/traditional, and thus that in Lutheranism, the center-of-gravity is on one end?
I'm just using the standard way US-based protestant denominations are categorized. This video talks about that a bit: czcams.com/video/k4R1UVQamsY/video.html
@@ReadyToHarvest:
Thanks. That did explain a lot.
Can someone explain to me why anything other than full immersion baptism is every used?
Yes, I can think of lots of reasons, the main one being because we can. LOL. In the OT, God was VERY clear about EXACTLY how He was to be worshipped and obeyed by the Israelites. There's a very significant shift of tone in the NT; sin/disobedience isn't swept under the rug but now God's grace, as seen by the forgiveness of sins Jesus won on the cross, is the emphasis. Baptism isn't clearly outlined in scripture, the way that OT law was. The assumption that it HAS to be immersion just isn't supported. So, there's a ton of variety (sprinkling, pouring, indoor immersion, river immersion, etc) from one denomination to the next, even though ALL of them may be 100% "Bible-believing" and 100% seeking to be faithful to God.
Plus, another BIG factor is that different denominations view the purpose of baptism differently. Lutherans believe baptism accomplishes something, that it isn't just symbolic. Many denoms that practice full immersion do so because of the symbolism (symbolic of being buried and coming up out of the water into new life). If baptism is one major way that gives us His grace and works His salvation then it CAN'T be a work tied to any of the things we are controlling, because God's made it clear that our works do not save us, only HIS work. If baptism is HIS work, then amount of water doesn't affect what He does.
Hope that helps clear up the confusion. God bless.
@@jessicamccarlson Very interesting. Grew up Baptist but attending a Lutheran church now hoping to learn more about sacraments.
@@aidanmcwhirter2612 I'd encourage you to talk with your pastor about it, then, so he can clarify it for you! As seen in the videos like this one and the comments that follow, each denomination is slightly different. For example when it comes to close/closed communion vs open communion, that decision comes down to who the denomination views as being "responsible" when communion is taken improperly (by a nonBeliever), the pastor/the church or the individual? Little nuances like that are good to know about the specific church you are attending.
ELCA is for the most part Congregational.
Not Lutheran but if I had to choose one I'd pick LCMS, they seem the most based
What an absurd waste of time. Totally counter intuitive of what Jesus taught.
from the early church to this denominational mess. so sad
I preach to lost Lutherans. No different from Roman Catholicism.
So stay away from the elca
Dear Lord. Scary amount of likes.
The Lord Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the world 2000 years ago, but you must receive him as your personal Saviour (John 1:12-13) for that payment to apply to you. This happens at the same moment you are "born again" (John 3:3). This happens at the same moment you are baptized and sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:12-13, 1 Corinthians 12:13).
You must be born again! Sacraments do not save anyone. The ordinances of water baptism and communion are physical pictures of spiritual truths, nothing more.
In John 6, the Lord Jesus Christ is contrasting physical bread with spiritual bread. He says “Your fathers did eat manna (physical bread) in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven (spiritual bread), that a man may eat thereof, and not die.” Eating the Eucharist (physical bread) does not save you. Only receiving Jesus Christ (spiritual bread) by faith as your Saviour saves you (John 1:12-13). Jesus goes on to say “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63). Jesus says he is speaking about the spiritual words, not about some fleshy piece of bread that you have to keep eating repeatedly.
This is the same concept we find in John 4 when Jesus talks about living water. Jesus tells the woman at the well “Whosoever drinketh of this water (physical water) shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him (spiritual water) shall never thirst” (John 4:13-14).
I speak the truth to you in love. If your salvation rests upon a piece of bread you get every Sunday and some water that your parents had sprinkled on you as an infant, then you are headed for Hell. You must be born again and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior. Salvation comes through faith in the shed blood on Calvary of Jesus Christ alone.
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” - Romans 3:23-28 KJV
we do both
you are totally ignorant of sacraments
You're wrong
@@vester7457 Jesus said 'ye must be born again' if you are going to see Heaven. You are born again (born of the Spirit) the moment you realize that you're a Hell bound sinner, and you trust solely in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to forgive you of all your sins.
No church, good works, or so-called sacraments can add to the finished work of Jesus Christ. Trust Jesus Christ alone as your personal Saviour and be born again today!
"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" - Ephesians 1:12-13 KJV
Atheist here. Is this whole thing a joke? Do people really care about this stuff?
Yes. If You, without being a Christian, are here interested in the difference between different Lutheran traditions... see if it is of interest that even an atheist like you gave his time for this.
@@Ateyecus I came out of curiosity...but what I found is sheer madness. Do Lutherans really believe that some other Lutherans (and all other humans except for themselves) are going to hell for all eternity? Sorry, but that's just crazy to the rest of us.
yes
Yes, whether you subscribe to a religion or not, it is all part of history.
Why yes, people who care deeply about their religion do exist outside of r/Atheism.
Sad for Protestantism, you have no authority. It was all started by a man without authority, Martin Luther, who regretted what he'd done at the end of his life:
"“There are almost as many sects, division and factions and beliefs as there are heads. This one will not admit baptism. This one rejects the Sacrament of the Altar. Some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual however clownish he maybe, does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and who does not put forth his prophecy to his own ravings and dreams.”
Martin Luther most definitely didn't say that.
So many sects within protestantism doesn't somehow prove the theology Luther Propagated and refiner is wrong.
Before the reformation the same thing happened many sects within Christianity each church disagreeing on various doctrines. No One United authority in the Church.
Except for Orthodox Christian beliefs,
Unless you count the Holy Bible of course which Luther wished to be followed. And no he did not regret what he had done. Just some things that came out of it. Back to History class with you
Roman Catholics are hardly united! It's a phony unity.