Swiss MP-41/44: Adolph Furrer and His Toggle Lock Fascination
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- čas přidán 26. 04. 2018
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The Swiss military discovered an urgent need for submachine guns in the early years of World War II, and sent out a very short-notice request for SMG designs. This seemed like the perfect opportunity for the SIG concern, which had been development a very good line of submachine guns through the 1930s. Their only serious competition was the WF Bern factory, which did not have anything of the sort in production. However, the director of the Bern plant (Adolph Furrer) was politically connected and make an energetic effort to promote a gun of his own design. Furrer had been tinkering with toggle locked designs for several decades, and had designed the Swiss LMG-25 machine gun. He claimed that his own submachine gun would be lighter, simpler, cheaper, and just all around better than SIG's...despite the fact that he didn't actually have it in production yet.
Unfortunately for the Swiss, Furrer's arguments worked, and Bern ended up with a contract for what would be designated the MP41. It was a short-recoil, toggle-locked gun using a side-mounted 40 round single-feed magazine and firing at a rate of 850-900 rounds/minute. Predictably, production delays meant that the threat of German invasion was completely gone by the time a substantial number of the guns were actually delivered. The Swiss military would honor his contract, but lost patience in 1943 and obtained a production license for the Suomi SMG from Finland, and would produce more MP43/44 Suomi guns than Furrer guns. The MP41 was slightly updated in 1944, and would remain in Swiss service until the mid 1970s, when they were removed from inventory and almost all scrapped (because no other country was interested in buying them).
Thanks to Kessler Auktionen AG for letting me film some of their guns!
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Adolph Furrer; Switzerland's least fortunately named World War II arms designer
HAHAHA Dat name!
Furrer is not Führer, and Adolph was a pretty common name back then.
@@Axonteer I am aware of this.
Sadly, being pedantic isn't usually very funny.
@@angryyogbuscus1578 so you are disappointed that someone that is able to use the letter ü is a) pedantic and b) not funny? I think you need to curbe your expectations.
@@angryyogbuscus1578 lmao
Bern engineer: isn't this gun a bit overengineered?
Furrer, putting springs into a magazine pouch: what
"What stops me from just marching over there and taking your tiny country?"
"We'll take all your bank deposits and spend them on these."
Or the actual answer given to that question, which was badass.
@@korbetthein3072 yeah it was
I love how so many of these Swiss guns are basically precision timepieces that happen to shoot bullets
Do what you know
just what i was thinking
@erikm12
What else would you expect, from a country that has had centuries of peace and brotherly love?
(Third Man theme begins playing in background.)
😉
Shoot bullets like clockwork*
Good one😂
The front grip is neat, especially on a pre WW2 gun.
Side note, Furrer probably put a toggle lock on his front door.
not gonna lie, chuckled pretty loud on your sidenote, well played Sir xD
I would too if my name was Adolf Furrer in 1940’s Switzerland. Hell, I’d have a few of them!
@@ILikeToLaughAtYou not really a problem as Adolph was a pretty common firstname at the time and the German pronunciation of Furrer and Führer is vastly different
I guess he needed 9mm bullets to open it.
:P
@@romannod5191 no one cares
You could probably equip a small village with PPS-43s for the price of one of these.
are you shure about small?
You probably could have equip three small villages or one small town for the price of one of those swiss smg
Can Me and My small village have like, all of those PPS-43's?
I *_NEED_* them, honest.
Hell, you could outfit an entire battalion with nothing but Grease Guns!
@@tonyovermyer5368 nope, only about 18 people
Ridiculously expensive, heavy, pistol grips, beautiful bluing and wood... So it's Switzerland's Thompson.
Hey, at least it has a bayonet lug...
RavingRaptor hey, at least the 1928 Thompson had a compensator
You forgot dubious locking mechanism .
GunFun ZS and completely unnecessary
Except that, while the Thompson's supposed locking system didn't really work as intended, it didn't prevent the gun from functioning as a decent blow-back... When this thing's toggle lock doesn't work, the gun doesn't work.
Adolph Furrer : "listen, guys.....I gotta fevah...and the only prescription, is more toggle lock!"
"A bayonet lug in case it malfunctioned or just was not heavy enough to begin with"
Ouch
Wait... this is the simplified version?
This thing's almost Rube Goldberg territory in operation. I'm curious to see the original (complex) version of this firearm.
I like the MG-42 on the left just casually listening to Ian's diatribe on the MP-41/44.
Adolph Furrer inspecting an engineer drawing a smg sketch.
"Oh, that's fine, but something's missing."
"What is it, Mr. Furrer?"
"We need more toggle-lock."
"But but... we're making a smg, we don't have much time to design something complicated."
"We need more toggle-lock!"
"But, if the soldiers have a problem on the ground, how do we do it? Then I'm afraid a weapon too heavy is a disadvantage to our troops."
"Toggle..."
"The government will never buy such an expensive weapon..."
"LOCK!"
"Yeah, I'm going back to SIG, it's better to have fun with a Mle.1935A than watching a guy moving toggle-locks all day."
Self-sealing stem bolt
You won the internet for toda 😂
I have a fever, and the only prescription is more toggle lock..
When you go above and beyond trying to prove a stereotype.
Furrer also designed some anti-aircraft guns, a 20mm and essentially and upscaled 34mm version. And both featured... you guessed it: TOGGLE LOCKS! Furrer also planned to make artillery guns with toggle locks. This madness was however stopped since literally noone but Furrer could see the benefit in that
And another toggle lock gun of his was the Tankbüchse 41, an Infantry version of the swiss Panzer 39 "Praga"s main gun, a 24mm semi-automatic anti-tank rifle
Furrers best known gun however still is the K31, he succesfully shortend the Schmidt-Rubin action
The true origin of "you know what we need more cow bells".
*OVER-ENGINEERING INTENSIFIES*
Switzerland, yes
It's already over 9000
"The fewer moving parts, the better." Exactly. No truer words were ever spoken in the context of engineering.
― Christian Cantrell
*MOVING PARTS MULTIPLY*
tbh I would expect this from watch makers
"Very expensive to manufacture, very finely tuned and precisely made contraption." That just about describes all Swiss firearms, right?
Basically anything Swiss
Except this thing. A expensive antique.
"...was also busy with some of the repercussion of....Germany, at the time..."
Came close to spitting coffee
I marvelled at Ian's exquisite framing of that statement. Well done indeed 😉.
To Anyone last-named Furrer: I double dog dare u to name your son Adolph.
:D
But if your last name is Hitler I wouldn’t recommend that.
Or daughter.
Triple dog: Yiff
Hunter Smith fun fact: Hitler has 3 nephews living on Long Island NY and they made a pact as children to not have kids so the bloodline dies.
It wasn't adopted until 1941 because it took a full 20 years to come up with an SMG operating mechanism even sillier than the Thompson's Blish Lock.
Okay, I know Gun Jesus said it was ugly, but as somebody with an affection for retro-futurist aesthetics, I kinda dig it! With the ports along the barrel shroud/handguard and that aluminum foregrip, it's like the offspring of a Steyr AUG and a PPsh-41. I kinda dig the look!
I've been trying to think of the silliest possible gun. This hits at least half of the points I'd come up with. It just goes to show, there really are no new ideas in the world- not even the bad ones!
Pcm979 here's mine: toggle locked, gas operated, belt fed, has own proprietary belt and tripod, off set sights, adjustable three position stock (with position one being storage and the others being right next to each other) side mounted fore grip, and firing .44 auto mag. Oh and it's got a mag well and a conversion kit to .22sr
Joel Atwater With conversion to .22 LR it would have more sense than double 3 mag pouches for this gun.
Lol, .22 beltfed. Sounds funny enough. Sights should be adjustable to 2000 yards, for maximum sillyness.
PobortzaPl not LR my good sir no, no, no, .22SR! Because why not
Guys... Laugh now...someone somewhere has over engineered a belt fed 22 :)
...wait, this was the one the Swiss government accepted over the Sig model?
Good Lord.
The weirdest part is they then licensed a design from another country... At that point, I'm honestly wondering if the guy running Sig had an affair with a government bigwig's wife or something
The mechanism is beautifully made. It's insane, but mechanically it's a thing of beauty.
Turning Swiss to eleven.
Taistelukalkkuna ha! That's a good one!
-Why not drop the toggle lock and make 10 pounds a more reasonable weight?
*Furrer looking at his own luger
-These go to eleven!
Swiss military: What were you thinking?
Designer: Well, it's got 27 complications including a moon phase calendar and accurate solar eclipse predictions for the next two centuries.
I wonder what Sig thought of Furrers claims. "It's better, cheaper, and easier to maintain!"
uh.. no, no, and no
that toggle lock is beautifully machined.
If this is what the Swiss came up with as an emergency SMG what would they think of the Sten!
To give one a perspective how ridiculously expensive the MP41/44 was, it's about half the price of the XM29 OICW.
8:35 "Yeah, I totally knew that was gonna happen..."
"Haha yeah, sure you did Ian 😅 very smoothly done 😎"
8:35 "Surprise, mothafucka!"
Guys we all know he disassembles every gun before shooting the vid
11 pound submachine gun. Oof.
IKR, almost as heavy as my first single-shot air rifle.
Same as Thompson
@@netenes1 I think the Thompson has an extra pound. Imagine having an SMG that's about as heavy as an RPK
At least recoil isn't that much of an issue...
@@jameshealy4594 lol, that’s a funny comparison, I guess you don’t think it’s too heavy?
"Very expensive to manufacture, very finely tuned and precisely made contraption" well sounds like he hit all of the Swiss stereotypes
The folding front grip is pretty neat. It's a clever way of increasing controllability without interfering with a sling.
Some of these weapons and how they came about are so interesting at times you think how some of these companies serviced at all thanks again
Wow... I love brilliant designs that suck in practice
Over engineering is no longer enough to describe this one...
During the war Switzerland bought many Suomi from Finland, I still shot one of these in the early 1980s.
*Swiss Kid* "Mom, can we have an MP-41?"
**Swiss Mom* " "We already have an MP-41 at home..."
Strangely enough, I bought three 700 or so round battle packs for this gun in 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev from The Sportsman's Guide about 20 years ago. I distinctively remember seeing the ammo battle pack labeled for the MP41. Was very surprised when I discovered (back then) that this was a toggle bolt SMG. No idea whatsoever what country used these in Tok caliber, but the ammo is very high quality and I still have one battle pack left:)-John in Texas
Oh boy new forgotten weapons. Swiss space magic
"Ugliest SMG ever" and that is one competitive designation.
The video of him shooting it better be named “Feeling the Bern” since this was made in Bern
*Spoiler alert* it is cause i have early access
Emil Hajbert come to think of it, this gun resembles Bernie Sanders and his campaign in many ways.
Captain BaseBallBat-Boy True
@@Wolf_Larsen Cringe.
Founded on empty promises, incredibly expensive, full of awkwardness, and overall incredibly inefficient? Sounds about right to me
CZcams:
Adolph?
SHUT IT DOWN..
it's not shutting down!
Love when your allowed to break it down. I like seeing how the firearms function
Nobody explains things better than Gun Jesus!
I can't help but laugh watching the disassembly on this thing, highly unusual, extremely overengineered, and dangerously Swiss. Watching the entire lock and barrel assembly spill out the back when you pull the charging handle reminds me somewhat of the disassembly of the Madsen LMG or the Maxim gun, not exactly the system you'd think makes for a practical SMG. Seems like Furrer was trying to reinvent the wheel.
I like it. Needs some brass parts to get totally Steampunk.
kodiakkeith replace the vfg with a brass one
kodiakkeith ew
Steampunk is tacky. Embrace Dieselpunk
I imagine Swiss machinists really enjoyed the guaranteed employment.
On the list of things you don't want to hear said during a weapons disassembly, add "put it on semi-auto and dry fire it."
My favorite saying from that list is still "..and I swear I'm not making this up, this IS what's actually printed in the manual.."
You should look at the loading procedure for a Mk19. It’s disconcerting to say the least.
Glock?! Well, Actually lots of idiots get shot doing that.
3:20 Come on, it's not uglier than a Sten Mk V with a wooden stock. Don't get me wrong -- this thing _is_ ugly, no doubts there. But I don't find it exceptionally ugly.
Yeah, me too. But I think in the case of the owen the paint job makes it look worse than it actually is. There are a few pictures of unpainted owens with wire stocks, black pistol grips and without the wholes in the back of the lower receiver floating around. These look almost decent for a simple smg.
Like your chocolates better. And the clocks.
@@Papperlapappmaul All the Owens were painted green and yellow from the factory. They were refinished black in the late 1950's when rebuilt.
I think all of Swiss guns must have the shittiest woods possible, none of them look good which is astonishing.
its not as ugly as an Viper
I hope this video doesn't get taken down, good luck Ian
I love forgotten weapons channel. It's one of the channels I watch repeatedly. Sometimes the same video a few times.
Love to see you fire this smg, looks very good to me.
It is always interesting to see when the personal interests of a specific group takes precedence over need. It's like the F-35
Carlos Rodriguez yeah except the F35 is actually good
Of course is good. It doesn't have toggle lock.
The f-35 is 8% of the entire US military budget for like two prototype planes
and it's also a piece of shit that can barely stay in the air and is at max flight weight already trying to keep the entire thing from exploding into itself.
It makes the F-22 Raptor look cost effective, which is a feat in of itself.
there's an entire website dedicated to getting the F-35 project cancelled, as it should be.
7.62 x39mm it's too late. Cancelling it will be much more expensive than carrying on
@@xmm-cf5eg lol what, look up F 35 air shows. It's extremely maneuverable with very good thrust to weight.
It's also actually pretty cost effective, $85 million for a 5th generation fighter that is top of the line. Best avionics in history, world class radar, extremely good stealth and small RCS.
It's actually a very good air craft, and is extremely successful with TONS of countries buying them now
08:43 you neatly caught that operating mechanism, Ian!
this was shot just few minutes away from me n im vibing thanks for sking
in a way it reminds me the madsen lmg
both have the barrel recoil a a short distance and is the only part on spring tension and the bolt moves in a relation to the barrel position by cam tracks
Me: *turns crouch, and ADS to toggle in my options*
Furrer: *knowingly nods in the afterlife*
*VERY informative...Thanks for share!!!*
A classic Swiss weapon. Obscenely complicated and demanding very precise machining. - Ian McCollum on an earlier video
The toggle-locked madness is why I bought the Elbonia shirt picturing that country's armament of MP-41 and stocked Lugers...
Gotta appreciate Swiss craftsmanship
Complicated or not, toggle locks look cool
I want one! And those cool magazine holders too!
13:50, seems to be finger holes meant to help pushing out the magazines?
2:19 🤔 The superintendent's gonna need his medication...
Sub machine gun but heavier than a battle rifle and more expensive than an anti tank gun.
- How complicated are you making this gun?
- Yes
I love how there's just an mg42(or variant of) chillin in the background.
yes I have alway wanted a video on this gun ever since I saw it in a book I bought
Just saw a video on Simple History about the TOZ (or TP) 80/81/82 survival 'pistols' issued to Russian Cosmonauts.
I'd love to see a video on that.
you got a nice channel! greetings from bern! CH 😁
i just wanted to say i love your videos, such great content and so much information
Holy crap, video published one hour ago and 4500 people have already watched it? 722,000 subscribers? Congrats Ion, I didn't realize......you do deserve it though.
In today's dollars, just guessing... Soviet PPS Subgun: $200. Swiss insane (but stupidly cool) monstrosity here: $5000. Reminds me of some Czech designs in the beauty of manufacture, but the Czechs were more talented and practical. A blowback tube subgun is probably the simplest firearm in the world to actually create, once you have a decent magazine design. This thing... you could probably modify it to use much higher pressure cartridges if there was any need. Anyway, Swiss engineering overkill of the highest order.
Putting springs in a magazine pouch is one of the most swiss things I've ever heard
Are the holes in the bottom of the mag-pouches to push them magz trough to better get them out? Maybe not only water holes...just an idea...
Cant stop looking at the MG42 in the back.
ye dont know how to spot one at that angle.
conciddering that it is in switzerland it might be an MG51
Neither could Furrer apparently
Most likely it has been used to kill zero grandpas if it's Swiss.
I could go for a good MG-2 right about now.
Whaaat? You were actually here in Kreuzlingen? I just live about 200 meters away from the Kessler Auktionen AG!
Crazy... And I grew up in Güttingen, where Mr. Kessler startet his business with a small gun shop, which makes it even feel more crazier to me realizing that you must have been just around the corner here. I hope you had a great time here. :-D
I did!
Are you making video on Swiss suomi submachine gun?
Nice watching a gun channel with a lefty reviewer. Makes for relatable content.
"You don't understand"
*"We have to make it toggle bolt"*
Man, I love toggle lock guns!!!
Great vid as usual but I did clock that kinda creepy giggle at the end! Lol
Are you in Switzerland?? So am I! Let me buy you a beer!
I was when I filmed this, but am not now. Sorry!
What was the reason for delay in pistol grips on guns like smgs and ars ect? Ive seen you review guns from the early 1900s with them why did it take so long to catch on?
I thought the front grip was just abig coil spring at first and I was like wouldn't that hurt your hand? But now I feel compelled to make a bump fire sub gun with springs for the grips
Did you record this video in Kreuzlingen in the Kessler Auktionen building? i can hear the clerks in the background :D
Elbonian parliment: "Perfect!!! We'll take them but only if they're chambered in 25acp!!!"
I bet if you rotated the mag well and ejection port by 90deg and re-arranged the fire control group it would make a real handy bullpup PDW.
Might want to put a deflector on the ejection port so it doesn't pop brass right into your face though.
An interesting SMG - would be fun to shoot a mag or three through it :) Thanks Ian!
Here I am thinking "That's the coolest-looking SMG ever made!", and then Ian goes and calls it the ugliest. :(
is there a place to ask about what weapons Ian has shown? I'd love to see a video on the Bergmann Simplex
Zac Hawkins yes I am aware. Do you know if there is a video on the Bergmann Simplex or do you just make rude, snarky comments on videos in an attempt to stifle any possibility of people joining a friendly community around Ian's videos?
What about Solothurn? Wouldnt they be in the game with the Király telscope bolt designs?
Are you meeting up with Bloke on the Range?
Kuddlesworth NA already has.
Seeing these Swiss Auctions brings up some questions.
Who's buying these curio/relic-esc firearms (individuals, established collections/museums) is it strictly for the Swiss Market or do these auction service all of "free" Europe etc?
You're in Switzerland?! I would genuinely like to have my picture taken with you because I like your content :(
How well would that action work turned 90 degrees and stuffed into a bull pup smg? Seems pretty compact.
Thanks for the vid, Gun Jesus
I read the title too quickly, and though it said that he had a toggle-lock fetish :P
Eh, close enough.
^
That trigger group/grip make it look like someone jammed a very well made pistol into the stock and action of a very well made rifle. 😂
Jolly interesting. Do you know the rate of fire?
was the receiver made from sheet metal? or machined like German MP38?
knowing the swiss, I have my doubt
The front grip remind me of the one from the styr aug.