Why Try To Prove God?
Vložit
- čas přidán 10. 01. 2023
- Our first caller of 2023 is Greg from TX who is wondering why it would be useful to prove the existence of God?
The Atheist Experience 27.01 for January 8, 2023 with Forrest Valkai and Dave Warnock
Call the show on Sundays 4:30pm-6:00pm CT: 1-512-686-0279 or use your computer to save on long-distance charges: tiny.cc/calltheshow
► Don't like commercials? Become a patron for ad-free content & more: / theatheistexperience
► Podcast versions of the show may be found at:
www.spreaker.com/show/theathe...
► Atheist Experience merch can be found at: bit.ly/aenmerch
► Become a CZcams member: / @theatheistexperience
► Join our discord:
tinyurl.com/TheACAdiscord
► Chat room rules:
atheist-experience.org/chat-ru...
► The most up to date Atheist Experience videos can be found by visiting
atheist-experience.com/archive/
Note: We request pronouns as part of the call screening process on our shows, and we display the pronouns our callers provide. If you see a caller with no pronouns indicated, this is because they chose not to provide us with any, and we respect that decision.
-------
WHAT IS THE ATHEIST EXPERIENCE?
The Atheist Experience is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared at a non-atheist audience. The Atheist Experience is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop and support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing and friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of state-church separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists and to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
VISIT THE ACA'S OFFICIAL WEB SITES
www.atheist-community.org (The Atheist Community of Austin)
www.atheist-experience.com (The Atheist Experience TV Show)
► More shows and video clips can be found in the archive:
www.atheist-experience.com/arc...
► DVDs of the Atheist Experience can be purchased via:
www.atheist-community.com/prod...
NOTES
TheAtheistExperience is the official channel of The Atheist Experience. "The Atheist Experience" is a trademark of the ACA.
The views and opinions expressed by hosts, guests, or callers are their own and not necessarily representative of the Atheist Community of Austin.
Opening Theme:
Shelley Segal "Saved" www.shelleysegal.com/
Limited use license by Shelley Segal
Copyright © 2011 Shelley Segal
Copyright © 2022 Atheist Community of Austin. All rights reserved.
So, at some point in your life you found out that your belief in Santa Claus was the result of your parents lying to you, but yet you still believe they always told the truth about God...
666: Christian logic not found
Joe, at that very moment in my life (first grade), I whispered in my mom's ear, "Jesus too?"
Here’s another thing I thought about: I can’t remember a time where I didn’t know who Santa was. Once I could coherently remember things, I already knew Santa and knew he was real. This was the same with religion, I grew up in the church and didn’t know any different. I find the only difference is my parents knew Santa was fake and lied to keep the “magic” alive, whereas with Jesus they don’t know if he is real, but still lied to keep the “magic” alive.
@@TheTruthKiwi Says the lost and clueless atheist fool that thinks star dust, moist rocks and mud puddles have the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE AND MEANS to create/design LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS, MORALITY, the human being and ALL the co-existent bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in co-dependent order in the human body :) Atheism is pure idiocy.
@@neverendingparty1534 Says the confused and deluded magical thinker that believes a "divine" human-like entity from another dimension magically poofed the universe into existence from nothing.
It is almost infinitely more likely the universe originated naturally or has possibly always existed in some natural form. Your superstitious, ignorant, woo woo clap trap crap is beyond absurd.
You aren't lost my friend. You have found insanity.
Did Forrest ever work in retail? His ability to smile like that while hearing utter nonsense or intellectually insulting statements is incredible. 👌✊🤜🤛👍🖖⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Ha ha. Yes. That would make sense. Or mushrooms! ;)
I wish I had his level of charisma
i see your point but i think that working the tables as a waiter gives you more oh this ability, i would bet on that in this case 🙂
Excellent point. Smile through the pain.
You are so right. Almost any public facing position, if you're good at it, teaches you to force a smile through some of the thickest nonsense that people who don't have those jobs can imagine. Try doing security or being a police officer. ALL the "challenged" people gravitate to you and want to talk incessantly about their conspiracy du jour.
This caller was so close to figuring it out with the Santa-Clause analogy, he put the shield back up at the last second. Change is scary.
Haha, good to know I'm not the only one who had the impression that he stopped himself to give the honest answer in the last second, realizing that the same logic would have to apply to his god.
@@jensraab2902 I just wish the hosts would allow one train of thought to be completed before introducing another. Love them both, but it seems counterproductive!
@@ianp3112 Agreed. Sometimes the format isn't great. I've seen instances where one host asked what I thought to be a really good question that might have led the caller to realize flaws in their arguments or which would were great to illustrate a point the callers were ignoring, etc, only to have the other host asking a totally different question half a second later derailing the conversation.
But at least, Matt Dillahunty is gone. I stopped watching AXP videos because of him; I can stand his grandstanding and bullying anymore. I'm aware that many viewers like to see him "destroy" theist callers but I find his approach harmful to the atheist cause.
His hostile attitude made it that I could no longer suggest to theists to watch the show.
The God of the Bible does not condone genocide. He orders it.
Same thing.
Genocide? Does God have the authority to play God? Then all you lost people can STOP with the "God is immoral" garbage for God taking life WHEN HE ALONE gave it in the first place. Does God owe you a certain amount of time on earth? Nope. Either God exists and you need to shut your mouth about him OR God doesn't exist and you have no rational or even possible explanation for what exists. God is the standard of good, so when he takes me out of this location through physical death and places me in the next location, it will be the right time to do so.
@@JamesJones-pm7tb Then God is completely immoral by his own standards, and is at least a hypocrite.
Slavery as well.
and gets off watching it
Forrest is quickly becoming one of my favorite people. He is so patient and kind, and always seems to be more focused on teaching rather than lecturing
The irony is that every episode boils down to this type of exchange. Most people don't want to have their world view destroyed.
Sometimes I think their heads would explode if they EVER considered that it's ok to Not Believe. That's how deep it goes.
Would require you to think critically. And that is hard to get an person to do. Period. It’s just a label to use and to say you’re a good moral person. Makes it so easy to play the victim and say everything else is evil.
This type of conversation might be more productive if instead of risking someone else's world view, ego, reputation, philosophy of life, etc. just risk a couple bucks.
Ie. A theist claims there is a God. An atheist claims that there isn't a God. They wager 10$ and decide on a process that seems reasonable to both parties to determine who should win the bet. The theist/atheist can always retreat and feel that that their claim wasn't fully refuted by the test, but admit that the knowledge of the result of the test was worth the 10$.
@@mesplin3
I saw you make this identical comment elsewhere recently. It made no particular sense then, unfortunately, and time has not improved it.
The problem is that you're trying to address a fairly general concept by reducing it to a particular example. That can be a useful approach if the general case is so abstract that it's conceptually challenging.
But that's not the case here. This stuff is easy, I would say almost trivial, at face value. So it really doesn't serve to set up.a contrived example with a lot of distracting artifacts that have to be excused. We're only going to get bogged down in "What test?" "Why is this test definitive?" " How do we know?"
The real point is the burden of proof, and that's been obvious all along. If someone makes a claim, and wishes to convince someone else if it, then they are obliged to make the case for that claim. That's all. It's very simple.
@@starfishsystems sigh. Yeah, you're right. I tried testing this idea out and we just went around in circles.
I'm surprised Greg didn't fess up and admit he only believes because he wants to go to heaven. It always comes down to a fear of death and delusion
Fear? Wrong. Christians are the only people that CAN’T fear death. Once you are a Christian - there is no possibility of hell. That’s part of the reason Christianity is the highest level of life one can attain. Christians have no fear - like the atheist & the other types of sinners. You wake up every morning knowing hell cannot be disproved and that you might be one breath away from waking to eternal torment.
Christians are simply facing the reality of the plan and goal of God, and how they fit into God's plan. When you're on a deserted Island and you want to go home on the ship that just arrived, but sharks are in the water, are you afraid of the sharks? No. You're simply embracing the plan to go home. I want the blessings of God while I'm living on earth. I want to go to heaven and enjoy what God has planned for me. Try to learn.
Ah but you forget , he probably has a « personal relationship » with Jesus.
@@petyrkowalski9887 All us Christians do, but that wasn't the topic. Try to keep up.
Can you prove it?
And that is religion in a nutshell.
His circular reasoning by saying that you never can understand god until you decide to believe in him is the EXACT reasoning that traps people who have no logical purpose to their belief structure. A near perfect example.
All hail Roland the magic closet goblin!
The Tooth Fairy actually created roland, yhwh, allah, vishnu, zeus, and all other "gods". She has created the Castle of Dentalia, a toothly paradise in the sky, out of the teeth of children for those of us who have practised good dental hygiene. The rest will be tortured in Cavitatious with being gummed by toothless komodo dragons for all eternity.
I have written it so it must be!
@@CRuM770 This is great! The Tooth Fairy is just the best! Now everyone grab their tutus and prance around to show our appreciation.
I can’t get over how much the Christian god is just bad fan fiction lol. It knows everything, it’s all powerful, it’s immortal, it’s infallible, it’s everywhere doing everything all the time but also anything bad that happens isn’t it’s fault, it loves you and made you exactly the way you are but you’re also flawed and deserve to suffer.. it’s like a child making up rules as they go along so they can win a game. The Christian god is the literary embodiment of infinity +1
Well said.
Yeah, Jesus died for our sins, because apparently the all knowing all powerful creator of all the rules in the universe can't just forgive us. Gotta have that blood sacrifice.
How can God be at fault when he's blameless? The free will of mankind is to blame. That's why there's a "Judgement Day."
@@JamesJones-pm7tb
What makes God blameless?
@@JamesJones-pm7tb If there's an all-knowing god, there can't be freewill.
Loved the Santa Clause analogy. They had him there, but he just couldn't say it.
Dunno about that to be honest. At least Santa Claus started as a real person, which got exaggerated to fuck over the years. Maybe the same for god, but I have my doubts.
Yes, at some point he nearly said "because there's no reason to believe in him" when they asked why he doesn't believe in Santa anymore but stopped himself short realizing that it's the same with his god.
@@christophermonteith2774 That's not the point. It's about the epistemology, the warrant for belief in a person or being. Whether he started out as a real person is irrelevant.
I was a devout fundamentalist Christian for 29 years. Now as an atheist I am doing so much better and so is my family. Fundamentalism is horrible and traumatic…
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” (Steven Weinberg)
@@mil401 PROOF THAT GOOD PEOPLE WILL LIVE AND EXIST ON EARTH FOREVER
GOOD people who honor and love the Creator, submit to the authority of Jesus Christ and believe his teachings about the Kingdom of God and Resurrection of the Dead will be honored and rewarded by the Creator with ETERNAL LIFE and existence without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and deaths on a safe, secure, and peaceful earth without evil, arrogant, cruel, and merciless atheists, agnostics, and fanatics of religions, without liars, slanderers, deceivers, hypocrites, terrorists, criminals, and murderers.
The Creator knows that in his own right time, he will let Jesus Christ resurrect back to life all GOOD, loving, kind, and submissive human beings who died even thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King David, his disciples, and many others so they can live and exist again on a safe and peaceful earth as submissive and obedient subjects of the "Kingdom of God" and fully enjoy his and his Christ's eternal love, kindness, compassions, generosities, favors, and blessings under the loving rulership, guidance, and protection of his Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth, his own Christ.
PROOF THAT EVIL PEOPLE CAUSE THE SUFFERINGS AND DEATHS OF MANKIND -
EVIL, arrogant, cruel, and merciless Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, all RELIGIONS who DECEIVE their own families, friends, and neighbors to hate and SLANDER the Creator and his Christ and fill the world with the SATANIC LIES and deceptions of the anti-Christs about "Armageddon", "hellfire", "Trinity", "rapture", and "reincarnation" are nothing but worthless and useless human beings who -
1. bring and cause the sufferings, griefs, pains, sickness, and DEATHS of mankind including their own families, friends, and neighbors
2. are worthy and deserving of their own disgrace, dishonor, shame, downfall, painful and ETERNAL DEATHS, just worthless and useless dusts on earth forever.
@@jaflenbond7854 hahaha no sale brother.
@@jaflenbond7854 spam burger.
@@jaflenbond7854 spam and eggs. Complained to the manager.
What a wise statement from Weinberg especially the last part, the Christian org. i was in will let (good) parent to allow their children to die in emergency situation, will not allow to take blood transfusion. The parents will choose religious belief (Bible scriptures) than their children’s life😢And if those scriptures are not interpreted correctly from the true Bible Author’s eyes, this true Author if exists should be the one to appear and correct these mistaken Christian org, but doesn’t appear at all and will just watch those innocent children die, the ones who was forced by their parent’s belief! Too sad reality!
I can honestly say, I'm a better person ethically, now as an agnostic atheist than I was as a christian.
How so?
@@rl7012 because of the horrible morality of the Bible
So basically Greg's position is 'better safe than sorry'.
Classic.
It’s a symptom of the scare tactics his Christian community instilled in him. 😢
Pascal's Wager however only works if you already have a tendency to believe in that god.
Otherwise you'd also be worried about upsetting thousands of other gods if you're wrong about that one god being the right one :D
that's one of his "positions" he waffles all over
Pascal’s Wager is practically an argument against Christianity. It helps to show how the religion is based on scare tactics.
Why would you need to be sorry if your god is all-merciful? It's odd how christians profess love, when in reality, their actions are dictated by fear
The biggest scam is Fear of Missing Out (FoMO). Religion takes this to the max.
Or fear factor of burning in he'll forever
@@lindarockafellow5058 That's the Fear of Missing Out on heaven.
@@lindarockafellow5058 nobody really believes in that. If they did they would be paralyzed with fear and grief.
@@scambammer6102
That's not entirely accurate. There's whole mental health centers dedicated specifically to dealing with that fear of hell because it's such an traumatic thing to indoctrinate children with and there's so many people that still suffer even after leaving their religious beliefs because the thought of it were so potent in their minds while they were believers.
It's called religious trauma syndrome/RTS and is a very real thing many people have to deal with.
My sister was an atheist until she new she was about to die. Then she wasn't sure at all.
"I don't understand stuff, therefore god..." But it's none believers that are limiting themselves? Hmmmm...
Which Christian said "I don't understand stuff, therefore god"?
@@martinsoukup562 Most of them.
@@ickeausberlin36 can you be more specific? Like name at least one.
@@martinsoukup562 Watch a few episodes of the AE and you will find plenty. Or just stop being pedantic and realise while not a quote this is basically what the guy said.
@@ickeausberlin36 misinterpreting argument of your opposition is not very useful.
I was a Christian for decades, but it wasn't my fault. I was indoctrinated as a child, by the time I got old enough to think on my own my brain was already so poisoned that it was pretty much impossible to think clearly.
I’m so sorry that you suffered such indoctrination. 😢😢❤
@@budd2nd thank you my friend. I'm doing a lot better now. It was a long road❤
@@darksoul479
Oh I’m glad you’re doing better 👍👍
Same here... I knew so much was wrong with it my when life yet never thought about that I don't HAVE to be xtian. It was amazing when I realized it.
Religion by design makes you incapable of seeing reality outside of their framework. It's truly disgusting
And Greg will never know how good he can be w/o god until he listens to his own moral compass and thinks for himself.
Weird the more atheistic I got, the more moral I got, the more forgiving, loving, better work ethic, more happy, literally everything Christians would tell you god has done for them, has happened the further away I’ve gotten from religion
Glad to hear that.
@@doneestoner9945 yeah well I don’t think it was directly connected as much as I may have lead on here, it was a combination of fixing my mental health issues with theropy and weed but I think the ability to think freely and not be dictated by a god definitely helped at least a bit. But I also definitely think that living your life as if a god exist can help ppl so im cool with it if we can get rid of the extremism
Religious extremists hide in moderates' shadow. We likely won't be rid of fundamentalism until religion is fundamentally dead.
Dave and Forrest both gave such eloquent descriptions of their views. Thank you!
It may be petty, but every time Greg said "right", I said "prove it".
I ask "why do you want it/agree with it?", whenever they make claims.
I have been asked what was stopping me from 100% commitment to believing in God. I would have labelled myself agnostic at the time. There seems to be an assumption that a position of "I don't know" is somehow incomplete: a halfway house to either atheism or your chosen religion. In fact, I wasn't even asked personally, but vicariously (literally, I suppose, since it was a vicar who asked my partner, not me, what was stopping me becoming a Christian). Perhaps the default question should be "Why do you believe?" rather than "Why _don't_ you believe?".
I think « wrong »
@@joshuakohlmann9731 Yes, the default position is non belief. The reason is that if the default position is ===> to believe everything, I would have to believe that this box has a rat in it and also doesn't have a rat in it. That is contradictory. That doesn’t make sense.
Do I believe that this box has a rat in it? No.
Do I believe that this box doesn’t have a rat in it? No.
I lack belief because there is no evidence yet.
As for a god that exists forever and is omniscient, it is possible to use logic to show that it does not exist.
That bothered me too. It was like he was assuming that he was getting agreement and seeking confirmation for the things he was saying. Most of which was wrong.
Ever notice on these atheist call-in shows, the hosts are NEVER vague or evasive when having to explain their atheistic position?
You are right. They never are. They are very clear: "There might be a god out there but until there is sufficient evidence to show that it exists there is nothing to accept about the claim that it does exist." You can't get any clearer than that. "I'm not accepting the claim that a god/gods exist because of the lack of evidence."
@@Moralatheist101 hope you are doing well and I hope you are doing well I quote Susanne Sundfør "even though you say I'm broken I'm not hurt at all" I f you think I'm broken that was a long long time ago when I wanted to know what love was but couldn't find it anywhere, cus I couldn't see the burden my mom, friend and love was carrying.
Stacked above and below truth
Endless seas with realitiy juice
A sharkly spook with a rainbow kite
Eat fishermen bite by bite
Far and near a sky born diamond
Buried Devine in flesh machines
Around the clock in square circles
They carry life in galaxy beans
The Bible is full of expectations of soul
To water the seed in a body of soil
Imagine wearing your heart like clothes
Surrounded by fire as it grows
If what I saw near bay is true
It's also stuck to you like glue
Mine burned up yet somehow still
Touch of ashes makes me chill
Born within the cranium
Birds and bees of berkelium
Lively animals in submarines
Made on broken computer screens
inside a bubblewrap envelope
they barked and woofed "this is dope"
Excited to see their new home
And all the new places to roam
Wuff wuff
These 2 hosts are fools (atheists) and their less-than-worthless, asinine, lost & clueless religious cult of atheism is INFAMOUS the world over for having ZERO ANSWERS. No atheist has a RATIONAL/POSSIBLE, step-by-step atheist explanation for reality. That's because there isn't one. THESE GUYS ADMIT THAT THEY HAVE NO ANSWERS!!!
The fact remains that along w/ DYING/FINITE space/matter/energy, TIME had a cause. The logical conclusion (when we follow the evidence) is that such a cause is TIMELESS. And if you're TIMELESS, do you have a beginning or end? No. We call that cause "OUR INFINITE, SUPERNATURAL GOD," who by definition is TIMELESS, CHANGELESS, BEGINNINGLESS, SPACELESS, IMMATERIAL and ENORMOUSLY POWERFUL.
These topics are the most important topics known; thus, EVERYONE should have a vast understanding of the facts that frame the truth of these topics and not be so content to gulp down the false propaganda of channels such as this one. THESE GUYS ADMIT THAT THEY HAVE NO ANSWERS!!!
@@Moralatheist101 The creator has to have the required INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE, RESOURCES & MEANS to create/design LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS & MORALITY. An "unstable singularity" that came from NOTHING doesn't fit the bill and that's why there are no RATIONAL/POSSIBLE "alternatives."
Atheists are lost & clueless. You have no RATIONAL/POSSIBLE, step-by-step atheist explanation for reality. There's nowhere else for you to go but UP in understanding.
But no matter how clear they are. religious apologists manage to “misunderstand” them. It takes a lot of effort to try to defend a belief in fairy tales.
You know that once Santa Claus enters the conversation you can see where this conversation is headed.
Dave's explanation on why atheists are speaking up more now was perfect. I love how it puts the lie to the false equivalency between atheists speaking up and theists proselytizing.
Theists have an interest in saving people from damnation and directing them to eternal happiness. This is important. Atheists have an interest in bigotry, lying, and blaspheming. They often misrepresent the history of Christianity with the same zeal the Ku Klux Klan displays for racism, bigotry, and antisemitism.
@@bobgarrett7134 funny as the Klan was rooted in Christianity. So is a lot of bigotry and misogyny. I would love you to demonstrate how atheism is the same.
You misspelled theist again, there’s no “a” in it Bobby.
@@freakyzed8467 The KKK is rooted in false teachings of superiority. Many atheists display the same arrogance. The KKK is also rooted in bigotry and the disparagment of religious beliefs held by others. Atheism goes far beyond that to ridicule -- comparing knowledge of God to belief in Santa Claus, Easter bunnies, farting pixies, unicorns, Superman and Paul Bunyan. The Klan's arguments are often just as stupid, hateful or non-existent. Atheists often disparage religious icons like Mother Teresa and Cardinal Pell, smearing and defaming them with haughty hatred. Christopher Hitchens often referred to Nobel Prize winning Mother Teresa as "An Albanian dwarf" and other horrid broadsides. The Klan did the same to Martin Luther King a civil rights icon.
@@bobgarrett7134 isn't it funny how Klansmen cited the Bible to justify their position? And so did the pro-slavery Considerates. And so did the anti-Semite, Adolf Hitler.
"Superiority" is at the HEART of the Bible narrative; the superiority of "God's Chosen".
Your great Dave
Calm, polite, patient, intelligent, genuine
Thank you for what you do
I greatly admire Dave, a truthful, reasonable, no-nonsense teller.
Now, now... Let's give Greg some credit, because he did help improve our vocabularies. I became reminded of words like sophistry, casuistry, unsound, invalid, and, of course, bulls*%&.
When Greg went with intelligent design, oh dear.
No, there's no reason to believe intelligent design to be a thing, not least that it's just a cop out to avoid saying creation.
17:42 AHH! HE ALMOST HAD IT!! (Facepalm)
"I believe in the possibility of it" tells me all I need to know.
it's the WLC standard
I mean, it is not impossible I could win the lottery, but let's say I wont plan my life around that possibility ;-)
So many theists I've talked to/debated start off claiming god definitely exists and after explaining why that's most likely not true and after providing many counter arguments they always end up saying, "well, it's possible that god exists" 😂😂🙄
Love your name
@@timothybrown5999😅
I really like this caller actually. He seems like hes really thinking about it, but definitely trying to hold fast in what he believes in just as anyone whos passionate about something should. I genuinely hope he thinks deeper about some of these interactions. I also think there was really somethin goin there with the santa stuff. Genuine guy, trying to hold conversation. Real props to him.
The mental gymnastics are impressive
you misspelled pathetic
I believe that you guys are well on your way to birthing a new atheist. Greg sounds like I did 20 years ago, before I admitted to myself that I no longer believed.
Good work!
Tipping my little hat to Greg for being such a fine gentleman during debate
Wow..... 21:18..... Forrest, I think you broke his brain! 'The god of the light bulb?!?' I hope this poor guy can stop and analyze this call in the future. That way he can hear exactly how confused and biased he sounds here. Great job as always guys! Thanks!
26:42 "I have no clue"
Was the most honest statement made. Starting from there, progress can be made
Valkai and Dave just an amazing job
"Because everything I say; it wouldn't be enough." Again, we find someone hitting the bullseye, but missing the target.
Yes, that is the point I wish they made. If everything you say wouldn't convince someone, why do YOU find it compelling?"
WOW! that analogy of St. Claus for getting a moral compass was amazing!
I had a mini stroke at god of the light bulb 😂
I am the God of tits and wine
~ Tyrion Lannister
I love the combination of Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins, Charles Dawkins, just at the end there. Very funny!
Love Dave and his incredible honesty and truthfulness!!!
I love Dave.
Forrest has a great baritone voice
He's got a clear deep tone, like Joe Buck.
Prolly could make a living voice-acting/broadcasting.
He told us exactly what we needed to know about him in his analogy of the tv. His perspective of God only requires that he have essential defining characteristics from which he can subjectively control their use. He knows enough about the tv to get what he wants from it. He knows enough about God to allow him to define the parameters in which he can gain value. To him, giving God strict definitions, he can not conclude from his experience a favorable view of himself.
He basically admitted he doesn't care about truth. Hahaha
There's definitely a large subset of people that aren't using the same definition of the word "believe". I've found these people simply think asserting God is real is the same as believing it. Any time someone uses the phrase "choose to believe" they fundamentally misunderstand what a belief is.
belief is an inference you derive from information. You choose to believe many things, by controlling your information and level of analysis. If I study a subject, that will influence my belief.
@@scambammer6102
If you understood what belief is you wouldn't have failed so hard when using learning how to play chess as an example/analogy in the other thread.
Your learning "process" is what convinced you that you can play. So you're automatically using belief in it, in the wrong way when comparing it to religious beliefs.
In religion there's millions of rule books, and in just one given religion there's 10 thousand denominations of their chess book and over 420 thousands through history total of known denominations.
And there's no cohesion nor true concencus on what chess is or agreement on how to play or look at chess, and there's no chess game in all the world you can go to or test or experiment with to rule one thing in or out. And people only accept the most common rules because they grew up in the geographical location where those chess rules happen to be socially and culturaly common. 💁♂️
I do assert that God is real. Can you prove otherwise?
@@scambammer6102 You most certainly can make choices that can influence what you believe, but that doesn't mean belief is a choice. This would be like saying someone chose to die in a plane crash because they chose to board a plane.
@@logicalmuslim1590 No more than you can disprove the assertion that Thor is real.
The Bible is like 6 or 7 year olds having a fight and saying my dad's bigger than your dad my dad's stronger than your dad this God thing is always been so childish to me 🥺🤣
General question: why do soOOooo many apologists do that *”…right? …right? …right?”* thing when they’re talking?
It’s really annoying.
Yes, and they never wait for an answer to any one of those "right's"?
My brother the fundie does the same thing, except he keeps saying "okay?" but doesn't wait for any acknowledgement.
Yes, annoying as hell.
It's a misguided attempt at logic. If they say "right?" And you don't immediately push back every time, they'll think you accept their claim, so it must be true (because consensus is truth)
It’s not an apologist thing. I hear that from people in all sorts of contexts, especially where the speaker is trying to get someone to agree with them, like in sales.
He can't say what god's moral code is that has been instilled in him but that it's clearly exactly the same as his moral code. What a coincidence! We aren't even the only species that has been shown to exhibit empathy or altruism.
The beauty of circular reasoning.
Exactly. No different than those who use their faith to justify horrendous acts.
All intelligent animals show a moral compass of some sort, pigs, rabbits,elephants other Primates. These are all creatures who are extremely social animals like humans and they show a great deal of empathy and compassion to those around them. Where did these animals get their moral compass from? Easy, it comes naturally. They know the difference between right and wrong and have their own moral code just like humans
That "why don't you now" from Forrest was absolutely killer.
Forrest has ZERO ANSWERS.
@@sineaddwanson9294 I'm happy with 1k comments moisty, so gonna look for one more of yours, than I gotta go look after life.
Hope to see you in the latest video. 🥰
@@sineaddwanson9294 he actually has a lot if answers. You are factually wrong. If you were even the least bit honest you would realize that.
@@sineaddwanson9294 oh, the irony! You can't even answer yes/no to the question: *"Is a snowflake more complex than water vapour spread out into the atmosphere?"*
I'd give this a thumbs up but right now its at 666 and I don't want to ruin the beauty of that
Love your username.
Love your profile pic.
Nobody can "choose" to believe anything.
sure they can. I learned how to play chess. Now I believe I can play it.
@@scambammer6102 nope. You went thru a process to learn chess. That convinced you that you knew it well enough to play it.
@@freakyzed8467
Exactly.
I believe I can fly, I believe I can touch the sky.
But I’m not gonna test that belief lol.
@@scambammer6102 choose to believe you are more intelligent than this
Dave you are amazing! Loved your interaction with Greg
the MENTAL GYMNASTICS of a zealot .........good lord have mercy
I can't believe he basically said the quiet part outloud...."what's it matter if God's real?"
Roland is rolling his eyes.
Greg is like a boxer that have been knocked off for so many times and yet, he keeps getting up to continue the fight. That kind of fighter is either playing stupid... or really stupid...
Or just brainwashed as a child.
I am glad you caught that Dave: " I don't choose to not believe
Dave you’re an absolute rockstar and I respect the shit out of you. Keep going strong and I hope you will remain a long time throughout history with your work. You’re facing life and all of the fears that it brings like a rational man and I really respect you for that. Kind greetings, Daniel. Forrest, you rock too👍
These 2 hosts are fools (atheists) and their less-than-worthless, asinine, lost & clueless religious cult of atheism is INFAMOUS the world over for having ZERO ANSWERS. No atheist has a RATIONAL/POSSIBLE, step-by-step atheist explanation for reality. That's because there isn't one. THESE GUYS ADMIT THAT THEY HAVE NO ANSWERS!!!
The fact remains that along w/ DYING/FINITE space/matter/energy, TIME had a cause. The logical conclusion (when we follow the evidence) is that such a cause is TIMELESS. And if you're TIMELESS, do you have a beginning or end? No. We call that cause "OUR INFINITE, SUPERNATURAL GOD," who by definition is TIMELESS, CHANGELESS, BEGINNINGLESS, SPACELESS, IMMATERIAL and ENORMOUSLY POWERFUL.
These topics are the most important topics known; thus, EVERYONE should have a vast understanding of the facts that frame the truth of these topics and not be so content to gulp down the false propaganda of channels such as this one. THESE GUYS ADMIT THAT THEY HAVE NO ANSWERS!!!
@@wrencestonbillstowe6461 Oops, almost missed out on another melting moisty moment 😇🙏
@Technic
Stop spamming the comments section with faulty information please. It makes your beliefs look worse and you look desperate. "Because it's better to throw out as many hooks as possible and hope for luck than to present something legitimate" is the message being sent us by you doing so and it just looks bad man.
P.s if you're going to respond in anyway over copy pasting the nonsense in every thread, please respond to me in the thread I previously responded to it directly and let's keep things tidy.
Thx and have a good day.
@Technic
_Tell me, Muse, about the man of many turns, who many_
_Ways wandered when he had sacked Troy's holy citadel;_
_He saw the cities of many men, and he knew their thought;_
_On the ocean he suffered many pains within his heart,_
_Striving for his life and his companions' return._
_But he did not save his companions, though he wanted to:_
_They lost their own lives because of their recklessness._
_The fools, they devoured the cattle of Hyperion,_
_The Sun, and he took away the day of their return._
_Begin the tale somewhere for us also, goddess, daughter of Zeus._
*Odyssey, Book 1:1-2*
@@guytheincognito4186 both trolls ran away...
Well done fellas! Thought and knowledge directly injected.
Agnostic-Atheist, former Christian here. I want to applaud Forrest and Dave Warnock's attitude and approach with this caller, and I must say it's refreshing to see. I really like how they didn't get hung up on 'proving' God. It's such a conversational dead-end, and I recall former hosts really digging in on the "we have no means of proving it one way or the other" track. They usually wouldn't let go on that and pointlessly needle the callers about it. It became, to me at least, as annoying as the presuppers on the other end and their asinine "You could be wrong!" mantra. So the conversations would never really progress to what actually matters: let's assume this god was real (who gives a crap how) - what is it's nature and character? Does it actually act the way it's portrayed - what are the results of it's actions? Why or how is it more 'moral' than us?
It is just the "feels". He fluffs around trying to describe the undescribable.
Feeling good about a lie is just that the lie remains the same and your feelings can change.
Trees protect each other and they don’t have hearts.
They are cold hearted.. always leafing each other
@@wadeinn463 I am dumber from reading that comment
Sky daddy gave them some moral codes or....evolution.
Trees compete with each other. They do not assist one another.
@@logicalmuslim1590 they will protect their own kind.
"believe because it makes ME feel good!!!1! Just lower your evidential standard like i did!!" - greg
I didn't understand what I didn't know as a Christian because I "knew everything I needed to". It's a hard nut to crack.
What's the point of believing something that you have absolutely no proof of its existence.
Because they want to be immortal and have a seat in the eternal retirement village in the sky.
The proof of God is easy. You're dying. All matter is contiguous & thus all matter is dying. That means all matter had a beginning & an eventual end. That means all matter is the DYING EFFECT that requires a NON-DYING CAUSE (THE INFINITE SUPERNATURAL ETERNAL GOD). Simple.
@@JamesJones-pm7tb that's not proof lol
"I would lean towards believing in a God as an atheist".....yup, click
Crushed him with the Santa comparison. Broke him, lol.
I feel like this caller was very respectful for the most part. I feel like he could be well on his way to seeing the truth.
I really enjoyed listening to this caller.
I love the contrast of Forrest and Dave. Dave's demeanor during an exchange, with callers, speaks volumes with minimum comments uttered. Very entertaining! 👐 Praise Krishna. 😉
"what good is evolution?" (doesn't need to be good for anything, that's just a thing in nature) Forrest gives a beautiful explanation of how we've used evolution to our advantage throughout history and to this day. The response? "mhm".
What a great episode!
Lets get to the facts. The reason people believe is out of fear of death and punishment.
I love the moment at 17:45 where Forrest steeples his fingers like a proper mastermind villain (he is not a villain, he is wonderful) as the caller wrestles with the realization he may have been special reasoning his God.
So for Greg, god is warm fuzzy feelings? He doesn’t know what it even is, he can’t explain it, can’t prove it, doesn’t want it proven or disproven, but it makes him feel good. No wonder he can’t answer everything.
It is a question I want to ask any theist pontificating at me: "If you were born in Muslim country, to Muslim parents, attended Muslim school - would you still be follower of Christ?"
The god of the lightbulb!!! Now that’s a new god I’ve never herd of lol 😂
When Dave said, so what do we need a god for…… The caller was quite as hell!!
It hit Greg hard when Dave said, it’s just something you wanna believe in, it makes you feel better and I wish you had the honesty to admit it, that’s ok if you do I won’t take it from you. I loved every minute of it with Dave/Forrest. Good combo on the shoe
Obvious answer based on Christianity: if God exists as evangelicals describe its the most important information in human history. Everyone would know the options are grovel and hope he forgives you or eternal hideous torture. So IF that framework is true proving God is hugely important.
If the existence of the Universe and everything in it can be explained by natural processes, then why add a God into the process? If the automated cookie factory follows a stringent and particular recipe and process to make delicious, chewy chocolate chip cookies, are the chocolate chip cookies made by Grandma, who follows the exact same recipe and process, really any better because Grandma said she made them with love?
"I have no clue."
Finally an honest answer from a theist.
Holy mental gymnastics, Batman!!
No surprise that a believer would think that that's not important...
Not important...
So we'll just go with "god exists" then, right? And build a whole elaborate edifice around that. And make you beholden to its authority.
The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible.” ― Nikola Tesla
@@ksdogg “Innumerable activities still performed by human hands today will be performed by automatons. At this very moment scientists working in the laboratories of American universities are attempting to create what has been described as a “thinking machine.” I anticipated this development. I actually constructed “robots.” Today the robot is an accepted fact, but the principle has not been pushed far enough. In the twenty-first century the robot will take the place which slave labor occupied in ancient civilization. There is no reason at all why most of this should not come to pass in less than a century, treeing mankind to pursue its higher aspirations.” - Nikola Tesla
My point? Even great minds can make a mistake and/or be wrong. This truth is seen in the Bible. God created mankind and thought it was good, only to learn later that he was wrong and must commit genocide on humanity in order to correct his mistake. Only to once again learn that he made another mistake by letting a man and his family live.
@@ksdogg it doesnt matter if Tesla said it or someone else, its still religious gibberish.
@@ksdogg “I loved that pigeon as a man loves a woman, and she loved me. As long as I had her, there was a purpose to my life.” ― Nikola Tesla
“The world works like it would without a god.” Dave Warnock
How do you know? same logic. Prove it.
@Deep Purple "How do you know? same logic. Prove it."
The Null Set. Since to date no evidence has ever been presented proving the existence of any deities, there's no evidence proving that one is needed for anything to function.
@@Deep.Purple We have completely natural explanations for how most things work or we simply don’t know…yet. Simply claiming that a “who” was ever involved is a dishonest claim. There’s zero evidence to make such a claim.
@@Deep.Purple You just furthered their point lol, its not the same logic, thats what science IS- its us making claims based on evidence, and the evidence supports that everything is functioning naturalistically- that is to say, without a God or gods.
@@Deep.Purple I know you are saying this to disagree, but you are just furthering their point, what you are saying IS the point, there IS evidence for natural things, there is not for God, and so its not the same logic because one side actually has evidence.
Tylenol anyone? I keep a bottle of extra extra extra mega strength at hand when I chance to listen to this show.
I don’t understand how the intervals of my TV work beyond a layman’s knowledge. If I wanted to, though, I COULD learn exactly how my TV works with education. Conversely, thousands of folks have seminary degrees, yet not one can explain to me how a god exists.
Dear Theists,
Are you unwilling or unable to present evidence proving your deity exists? Premise isn't proof, so whatcha got?
@@jaflenbond7854
He asked for _evidence_ Claims aren't evidence. Something you read in some book isn't evidence. Please, provide _evidence_ of this god existing.
"The Creator is the Most High and TRUE GOD who will honor and reward all loving, kind, and submissive human beings...etc".
This is just a claim. It's not _evidence_ .
"Why are you boasting and bragging that the Creator and Owner of planet earth is worthless, useless, and undeserving to be honored and respected as the Most High and TRUE GOD? "
Most atheist do not do that.
We just lack of _evidence_ of the claims that this god you describes actually exist. We've asked you theists over and over again and you aways refuse to provide it and want us to believe it just because you say so.
@@jaflenbond7854 Ok, if you prefer "stating" instead of claiming.
You're stating, without any evidence at all, that "the TRUE GOD will honor and reward all loving, kind, and submissive human beings with ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, sickness, and deaths."
Please provide some _evidence_ for this. That this god exist and this god is the things you clai... sorry state.
E V I D E N C E. Real evidence. Not just ramblings about how much you honor and respect him and all the things you think he is. Evidence. Please.
"Why are you boasting and CLAIMING that the Creator or the TRUE GOD is worthless, useless, and undeserving to be honored and respected as the Most High and TRUE GOD?"
I'm not. I just don't believe that this being, that you say is a creator, a god etc actually exist and just ask you for some evidence for these statements.
That's my personal reasons.
@@Asa...S he has none....more preaching to come in his replies.....
@@Asa...S It's correct I am NOT claiming anything, I am stating the TRUTH.
I am stating the TRUTH that Atheists, Agnostics, and Fanatics of all Religions are NOT worshippers of the Creator, the TRUE GOD and not believers too of the teachings of Jesus Christ about the Kingdom of GOD and Resurrection of the Dead.
You are free to worship your own God or not worship any God.
You are free to mock and insult the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
You are free to worship Satan the Devil, the God of the Liars and anti-Christs Pastors and Leaders of Religions as your own God.
You have your own life and free will, all human beings have their own lives, so, just help me understand -
Why are Atheists, Agnostics, and Fanatics of all Christian and non-Christian Religions boasting and CLAIMING that the Creator is worthless, useless, and undeserving to be honored and respected as the Most High and TRUE GOD?
Tell me the reasons...so I can understand the Satanic arrogance, lies, deceits, and foolishness of Atheists, Agnostics, and Fanatics of all Christian and non-Christian Religions in the world.
@@jaflenbond7854 You most certainly are not stating the “truth”, you are however, a chronic copy pasting troll.
you guys are very kind, understanding, and patient with callers... Im glad God imprinted those qualities on your hearts ;) lol
15:49 Starting on third and acting like you hit a triple ... That is gold right there.
One ot the aspects of cults I realized recently which applies here:
What is important is that you OWN the truth, that you have it. What it is you have, is totally irrelevant.
Christians will claim only by divine revelation, they came into the possession of logic, morals and a meaning of life. They KNOW their life HAS meaning.
Ask them what the meaning of their life is, from which Bible verse they derived it, and you will not get an answer. Same with morals. For logic they might recite what polytheistic greeks defined centuries before the Bible, without even realising that. Not a single law of logic is formulated in the Bible, they do not realize that and do not care.
Important is they ARE logic because they believe in God. All they do is moral because they believe in God.
Obviously the idea is by reading the Bible these wisdoms are diffusely instilled into you (by magic). Nothing concrete required.
I heard that the Quran can only reveal its wisdom to you when you read it in the Arab original. So Quran scholars learn to read and speak out the arabic syllables, and then read and recite loudly the complete Quran in arabic. But they have ZERO clue what it MEANS; they are not taught arabic as language, ONLY as sound. It is like singing notes, not more.
That gets halfway the gist of that, something we rational, naturalist non-believers simply do not get, that you can have the truth without knowing what it is.
Makes it flesible, in any situation the truth is something different. When it is undefined, there is no contradiction. And christians are used to be purely situational/transactional, they only perceive the current situation, when it is over, it is deleted from memory and you freshly react to the next story. No memory, no comparisons.
So feelings and bullshit.
Here's a thought to theists: do you think a 'god' of the cosmos needs you to tell me anything? Nope. And yet...
"I dont kill people because I dont wannt get killed"
cant relate
They should have asked him: if your tv went away tomorrow, that has only a minor effect on your life so there's no good reason to have to deep research how tvs work. But your deity is infinitely more important than a tv, so shouldn't you put an infinite amount of time into researching it?
I just want to know what books Forrest has in his book collection…
Yes, I want to know that too.
American Psycho
This books
@@PeterSahlins
They should be in everyone's collection.
The correct answer to this is "YES"! You are welcome.
I have a brother who answers the question, "what evidence do you have?" With, "I have seen prayer work, God has a plan but you can change his mind with prayer" how do I counter that?
Tell him to Prove It
How often has he seen prayer not work? How does he know his so-called god has a plan? How does he know if and when his so-called god changes its mind? Does he have any good evidence his so-called god is more than superstitious nonsense?
I worship the risen Gord Downey.
I say, "Prove it!"
Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan? Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and f up Your Plan? And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the f bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will?
- George Carlin
Greg gets shut down by Forrest at exactly 25:00... His brain literally shuts down lol. Nice job guys
Every single Christian I've ever heard from always implies that *belief* can be a choice. When I was still a believer, I couldn't understand why my ex didn't believe, even though he clearly knew what I was talking about. I don't think I really understood until I was on 'the other side' of belief, mostly b/c I never talked to anyone about it.