Alizarin Crimson vs Permanent Alizarin Crimson: What's the Difference? Lightfast Test Results!
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- čas přidán 15. 09. 2022
- Have you ever wondered what the difference is between Alizarin Crimson and Permanent Alizarin Crimson? ARE they different? Is the permanent version more lightfast than the original PR83 pigment, which is known to be fugitive? Is PR83 actually fugitive? Well I have certainly pondered these highly important issues, and in today's video, I have all the answers! I've done a showdown comparing both versions of gorgeous red, from a number of different brands to get as accurate a result as possible for the light fastness test.
My lightfast test was conducted for just over a year at home, and obviously it is not going to be perfect but I think there are some really definitive results here. Watch to find out what happened!
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It is quite probable that some of the pigment names I wrote down are inaccurate; different websites call them different names! I have done my best to get them right but the numbers at least are correct, haha! Also, Winsor and Newton still sell Genuine Rose Madder (Lake) in their watercolour line. That's the super fugitive one - now I am curious to see HOW much (but not enough to go out and buy a tube, lol).
I’m pretty sure I saw someone in Au selling 1/4 pan samples…bc I ALWAYS fall out of my chair when I see shipping costs from there. (On Etsy). Luckily, I’ve found someone here who’s willing to sell me inexpensive 1/2 pans from her vast collection; best way to sample them to see if that’s what you’re looking for. The ONLY ones I now REALLY want before moving is some from the Schminke Volcano, Tundra and Desert collections..specifically, NO greens or blues! (Already have most of forest, shire & glacier..again, maybe it’s me, but the colors look very redundant.
I still use fugitives. I just know that they are. Some colours (such as neons) can’t currently be replicated lightfast and I’d like to still use colours that give me joy and also for Colour accuracy. Lightfastness isn’t everything.
Still when selling originals or as important long lasting gifts I know which supplies are lightfast and use only them. Also frame under UV protective glass for wall hanging originals!
I am willing to hang wall art and decorations in my own house that may fade as I’ll just hang a different artwork then… I’m planning on swapping wall art every now and then anyways so it’s not a big deal. Also sketchbook work is fun.
Sometimes choosing the lightfast option is definitely best if they function and look identical ALWAYS choose the most lightfast. Other times certain properties and hues are not available lightfast so don’t let fear of fading prevent freedom of artistic expression! Just label/separate into lightfast and fugitive and double check when it matters and use only the most lightfast when it’s important.
I loved this test. I'm glad you did an ambient light test because the direct window tests aren't real world. The information we really need is how the paints perform on a wall and you gave us that. So great. I love Aliz Crimson, so I use the "permanent" variety from Daniel Smith and I avoid hanging the resulting photo in overly sunny places. Voila! I have a couple paintings on the wall that lasted for years so far, or else the change hasn't been so severe that it bothers me. Of course, I don't sell my art. I think it's always safer to sell prints rather than originals -- and make sure to work with a professional printer who uses light-fast pigments because home printers typically utilize dye-based ink that will fade into nothing faster than paint ever does. I've even had one-hour photo prints fade in ambient light -- not direct sunlight. So it's all a bit of a crap-shoot.
Ambient light is definitely the most accurate test, as full sun is a bit ridiculous but I always like to do the extreme test too. If they can sit through that then anything with less light will be fine! Ah yes, photos can fade very quickly. 😭
Great test with useful results! The OG Winsor & Newton Alizarin Crimson is truly beautiful, has a unique glow to it especially when layered. That said, IMO that glow is only really noticeable in botanicals so I don't miss it in regular painting, but understand some artists' preference for it. I was glad to see PR177 paints did well in the ambient tests, it's been getting a bad rap in the direct sun tests lately, but it's been my go to AC replacement for many years as I like the dark neutral I get mixing with PG7. However there are many similar paints out there that get the job done. Thanks for sharing your research with us, much appreciated!
It’s interesting to see that the genuine alizarin crimson colors all tended to shift closer to the Sennelier permanent alizarin crimson after the sun exposure.
Fabulous video! Great job swatching a really light tint and not just doing a gradient. The tints will always reveal the fading much more rapidly and obviously. I’m always frustrated when people do tests and only swatch the masstone!!
I think this is the first time I thought to swatch a dilute wash and not just the masstone, haha! You are right though; it makes a big difference as to what fades.
I just love your cheerful disposition :). Thank you for making this channel!
Sennilier have me confused with their light fast ratings. Thanks for the spotlight on aliz crimson.
I loved the ambient light test! Great review!!
Appreciate your efforts in testing this out Becky
I'm so glad your test of the alizarin crimsons showed up in my feed! I was looking at getting a tube and can see it wouldn't be what I would want! Thank you for saving me some heartache!
You're welcome, I'm glad it helped! 😊
Super helpful, thank you! I’ve been curious about this as well.
I am glad I finally did this test - it had been on my mind for a few years, lol.
Great research!
Very interesting results - thanks for this, Becky!
It's the last lot of tests I had in my window. Time to think of some new ones! 😂
Interesting experiment, once again and good to bear in mind when buying new paints. Have a great weekend, Becky.
I was curious to know myself, as I usually end up with the permanent versions in my seta. I love the deep red colour. ❤️
This was great! I love the genuine Alizarin Crimson, so beautiful.
It is a stunning colour and almost impossible to replicate, in my opinion!
Thanks for this Becky! I like that you did the ambient light too. I’ve only used the permanent versions, I started with Daniel Smith’s version but really dont like it. It has also changed dramatically in my lightfast test, going very dull and brownish. I got the QoR version in a set, same with Sennelier. Then I found the WN PR206, and love that one, picked up an extra tube when it was announced it was discontinued. I just got a tube of the new PR179 version, and it’s even better. It is the closest color I have seen to the real thing, it’s absolutely gorgeous. It’s much redder and pinker than regular perylene maroon.
Thank you, it's great to know the new W&N version is also pretty! I just bought a tube of the PR206 as well, lol.
Thank you, that is useful information. I'm starting to get some good watercolors and really checking out the pigments. This is really helpful.
Thank you for the test with ambient ligh, it's so much more realistic, everyone should do this in their light fast videos especially, people I think are sometimes a little more nervous than they need be especially about the permanent ones, like I think qor is at 2 out 3 rating and in reg. Picture hanging conditions it is just fine.
I just use colours that make me happy these days, without really worrying about lightfastness; most of my art ends up in folders or sketchbooks anyway, haha! But ambient light is probably the most common exposure for most displayed artworks. 😊
💜💜💜tfs💜💜💜 learning so much, thank you heaps
Your videos are really helpful ☺️
Yay, I’m glad! Thank you. 😊
I have wondered about the differences between alizarin crimson and permanent alizarin crimson. I have permanent alizarin crimson by Daniel Smith (PR177, PV19, and PR149) and I have PR206 which Jackson’s Art calls permanent alizarin crimson deep.
I wonder if Jackson's will change as it really does seem that PR206 will be discontinued. I bought a whole tube of W&N's version before they change the pigment, because I love the current one they have!
@@BeckyTregear After I bought Jackson’s PR206 I watched a video that said it’s going to be discontinued. I bought a full pan and I think it’s going to last me a lifetime! It’s a very generous full pan. ☺️
Thank you Becky, I like the original aliasing crimson, but it will only be used for sketchbooks or making prints if my art ever gets that good.
Very informative and well put together video, I'm glad you showed the results after a year as I don't have the patience or the sunlight for it in this country hahaha! I'm not a huge fan of reds TBH I'm more a muted colour person but these type of video's are always very helpful, thank you!
Red is my favourite colour so I thought I'd test out the Alizarins I have and see if the permanent versions actually last longer than the original PR83. Glad with the results! 😂
If you can find it in Australia, Da Vinci Permanent Alizarin Crimson, made of PV19, is beautiful and really close to the original.
Thank you, I will look out for it! 😊
Great video! I almost gave up on this color but switched to DS Aliz Permanent Crimson. :)
It's a great alternative! 😊
Very informative video!
Glad it was helpful!
@@BeckyTregear , wishing you get well soon.
Because I’m about to move; I decided to just order 1/4 and half pans to sample, until I get moved up near my daughter….once she and her colleagues move out of their emergency room they are camped in until tomorrow. Or maybe DIG out..she’s surrounded by (had to convert) 1.92M of snow.
Yes, I’m moving to Buffalo. Anyways, I ordered some samples on Etsy. 2 were Aliz Crimson DS & Perm Aliz Crimson QOR. I’m a relative beginner to “Western” WC, after taking classes on traditional Chinese Painting & calligraphy for 7 years. Funny thing is, traditional color chip makers AND Marie’s, both changed their pigments for “Crimson”, most Chinese painters I know are all using Perm Aliz Crimson either WN or DS. One of my Chinese tutors swears by QOR. Whether it’s my failing eyesight..or my amateur opinion..I can’t see many differences, even with my crimson Chinese chips which look and act just like QOR on both Xuan and western cotton paper. 🤷🏼♀️
And NOW, my best friend, a former art professor who’s got me teaching HER Chinese style whilst she teaches me Western,,insists on ONLY DS…”because they’re stable and never change formulations”. I’ll send her and my Chinese tutor your video. Bickering over subtle color differences is the least of my problems right now.😂
Really they're all close enough to each other that it doesn't matter in the long run which is chosen, aside from Sennelier's permanent version which looks much browner. Overall, it is one of my favourite reds, because I love its deep richness and slightly cool undertone. I think I have the Qor version too, but I forgot to include that on my test, doh!
@@BeckyTregear I WAS surprised at the amt of deterioration of Aliz Crimson, even just a bit of sunlight seems to have a browning effect. I sent a link to this video to my Chinese tutors insisting on Reg Aliz Crimson..although, I can promise you they’ll come back with “BUT, IF it’s properly mounted…”
I have 2 antique Chinese scrolls. Heaven knows what the original colors were; but I can promise, they were nothing like they are now. I just don’t think their “mounting” is quite as protective as they think it is…I’m gonna get into trouble for saying that..but while I’m at it, I am SO tempted to go back over a painting I have of Li Bai on a Cliff. It’s a copy of an original done in 1973. The calligraphy of one of his poems was apparently done in paint, not ink. 🤷🏼♀️. And the paint of the landscape, both are barely visible. I’ll wait until I move and get settled before committing my cardinal sin..😂. I’m not selling it, but planning on giving it to my eldest..,who’s first response on seeing it was, “can we maybe fix it up a bit?” 🤷🏼♀️🤫
An interesting fun fact: The modern lightfast scale is all based on Alizarin Crimson as a base standard
That's a great fact!
Thank you! Great video. I am in love with Alizarin Crimson Genuine by Daniel Smith. I have used a variety of crimson paints over the years, but nothing has same luminosity (imo). The closest I have ever come to it is Permanent Alizarin Crimson by Da Vinci. Which is made with a single pigment of PV19. It is gorgeous! It's nearly impossible to tell the difference. Still...my love affair with Alizarin Crimson Genuine is real, and I use it a lot. It just brings me so much joy. But if I were to use Alizarin Crimson Genuine in something that I might hang on the wall...I would use a UV matte spray to protect it from fading.
Great idea using the UV spray! It is a gorgeous colour, I'll admit that! ❤️
The W&N Permanent Alizarin Crimson is probably made of Quinacridone Pyrrolidone and PR206. The W&N Permanent Carmine is probably made with Quinacridone Pyrrolidone alone. If that is true, then you could just try the Permanent Carmine. This information is from handprint and Jackson’s. W&N mentions that the Permanent Carmine is made using PV19.
There is a lot of conflicting information on pigment names out there, on different pages! I took my best guess but wouldn't surprise me if I got some wrong. Nonetheless W&N permanent version is beautiful and I went and bought a tube before they change the pigment over.
Actually, I would love to try genuine Alizarin Crimson PR83. I think the versions by M Graham and W&N are slightly different. I would like to give them both a try. I would also LOVE to try the W&N Rose Madder Genuine NR9.
I got PR83 from the German brand LUKAS on ebay for an extremely good price because it was old stock. A lot of vintage watercolor palettes seem to include it, so maybe keep an eye on ebay. :)
It's a stunning color, I think everyone should try it. Mixed with phthalo green it makes the most beautiful and deep black.
@@RamoArt Thanks so much! I can image the black being beautiful. I mix my phthalo green PG7 with PR176 and I get a deep, inky black to indigo colour (depending on the ratios I use).
I have a list of some fugitive pigments that I refer to when looking to buy new paints. I won't buy anything with those pigments in them, including PR177.
Good idea - I tend to forget which ones are fugitive, and end up buying them, lol.
Not getting rid of mine - using in sketchbook only though! When I fooled around with watercolors more than 30 years ago in college, Alizarin was my favorite red. Was devastated to realize now it’s fugitive. I’m still looking for my stash of old paintings, but the ones I have found that have been stored in the dark seem to be fine. The paper though…. How do old papers always get weird brown spots on them? Is that bugs that die and then dissolve LOL? Anyway, thanks for another great lightfast test - really appreciated!
I am quite sure Alizarin Crimson will be fine in books, it just seems to be affected by strong sunlight I think. It's so annoying when papers get brown spots on them!
Thank you for this video :), I have already the new W&N permanent Alizarin Crimson with PR179 and it is exactly the same as the one with PR206 :D, personaly I don't think it is a must have colour although it is beautiful there is just something about it. They used to use Alizarin crimson as a cool red but today we have so many other options magentas and quinacradones and we can mix realy easy those shades, try to tint some perylene maroon or PR206 or burnt orange with some permanent rose and you will get the exactly same shade as the comercial onces :)
That's good to know about the new W&N being the same as the old. Just in case, I bought a tube of PR206 recently so I can have a stash of it for refills, lol!
@@BeckyTregear 😅same here girl
Great test! Thanks for your work, Becky. I am not an expert watercolourist, so I have some perm. alizarin crimson by different brands and one 'real' alizarin crimson by Sennelier (came in a set, I think). I would rather go for the permanent version because I want to be able to hang a painting on the wall if it turns out good.
It is a shame that Sennelier's permanent version is nowhere near as pretty as the original Alizarin! But others at least have very good alternatives. 🙂
well that faded away in the sun! hmm i dont actually know if I actually have any of the alizarin crimson, if i do, im not getting anymore
Thanks for doing this. Would your lightfastness test also apply to alizarin crimson acrylics?
I don't know exactly but I think acrylics would probably hold their colour longer being that they generally get painted on thicker. I haven't tested them though so I can't say for sure!
I never tried genuine PR83 but I have a pan of Permanent Alizarin Crimson by Sennelier. I think I could mix something similar with Quin. Rose to make it more pink.
Worth a try!
Really useful quality content. I'm giving you all the likes!! * tap-tap-tap *
Yay, thank you! 😁
what if the painting was framed with U V glass?
UV glass would help a lot, I'd imagine!
That sennelier perm aliz crim. looks so brown and yucky, I no wonder all my mixes are never good.
Yes it is a lot browner than the other versions...I don't like it much either!
Or? Do you just like saying Alizarin Crimson. 😂😂😂 As a kid I got a kick out of that color name.
I said it SO many times in this video! 🤣
First!
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