So, who am I to believe? James, a guy who has inspected countless roofs and been in the business for a quarter century or more, or Grand Design, a manufacturer who is turning out units at the cyclic rate during a so-called pandemic when workers are as scarce as hens’ teeth? I’ll take James for $1000, Alex.
I read the installation instructions. Item 10 states, “Remove all air pockets with a squeegee; press firmly working from the center outward toward the edges. All wrinkles must be removed at this point for a quality installation. The roof will tighten and conform as the adhesive cures.” Sound as if air pockets are an issue. Additionally, what would be the purpose of any adhesive is pickets were permitted. Eventually the air pockets will grow.
Customers are wise to choose a professional like you who has many years of experience. Not all inspectors are the same, but this customer now have the honest report and know what needs to be done.
For a new camper this is outrageous and it’s definitely not going to be on my list of desirables. Thank you for letting us see the extent of the damage in a brand new vehicle. I’m honestly shocked at the shoddy workmanship and I’m so glad you left.
I was so close to pulling the trigger on a Grand Design Imagine XLS 22MLE. The roof had several bubbles but not nearly as bad as that unit. Interestingly, it wasn't the roof that killed the deal; it was the cut corners in construction. Loose trim, crooked TV mount, drawers that wouldn't close, unsanded cabinetry/drawer surfaces, wire bundles being messy, and OSB in places I would expect plywood. Honestly, I was really disappointed. I don't think my expectations are too high since Grand Design claims to have such remarkable PDI. Total bummer.
They have a remarkable Marketing Dept that's for sure. I too fell in love with the XLS 22MLE, but the plumbing fixtures are wrong. Right out of the water pump (pressure side) there's a flex line connected to a PEX fitting which screams future leaks. There's no perfect trailer in this price point, but come on GD, stop pretending we're ignorant.
Great inspection! You should follow up with Alpha, and get their review of the roof and have them issue a statement about it. Ultimately its their product being installed wrong by Grand Design, undermining the potential reputation of Alphas product. Thank you again for your honesty!
Now that is a black eye to Grand Design. Being a high end product both materials and labour should reflect that. Worse is they did not step up to the plate and own the issue. This alone is a show stopper for me to consider paying the premium for their products. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
10. Remove all air pockets with a squeegee; press firmly working from the center outward toward the edges. All wrinkles must be removed at this point for a quality installation. The roof will tighten and conform as the adhesive cures.
we have a 22 Imagine as well and have seen this on our own rig's roof. sadly, this was also the case on every single other travel trailer we've looked at. climb the ladder and found bubbles on each one of them. jayco, grand design, keystone, and coachmen all had them. we had them on our previous coachmen and was told "it's normal." prices keep going up but the quality takes a dive. :(
Great Job James ! Thank you for calling them out !! I have been finding this all the time during inspections with several brands ! I have a Grand Design and my membrane is not bubbling. Its 2 years old and looks better than that one. Imo you are correct , this is not right and probably the reason membranes have been blowing off. Dealerships and manufacturers are telling people it has to expand and contract. They also tell them its not glued down. ( That I believe ) lol Thats complete BS ! Ive had several TPO roofs and they were all glued down with no bubbles I sure as hell would not accept that unit !!!
Not at all surprised that the factory “technical support” would say that is normal. After all, it only has to last 12 months and when the warranty expires they can wash their hands of it. Sad but a true statement of the status of the industry in 2021.
@@AZExpert I love learning from your videos. Your real world experience inspecting, finding and fixing manufacturing errors speaks volumes to us out here
12 months? That's just the bumper to bumper. The membranes are typically a 10 to 12 year warranty. The stipulation tied to that is typically that a roof inspection has to be completed by a licensed shopper on an annual basis, issues addressed and that the membrane has to be resealed every couple years (if memory serves me right).
New tech here in Canada. I’ve seen a lot of customers with new trailers with poor roof installs from factory, dealing with a lot of extended warranty jobs that are being handed to us from another dealership, we are a mobile service company….. disheartened is the best way to describe the tech’s moods with all these new units with roof problems (among other problems with the quality control issues with 2020-2021-2022 units we have been dealing with)
Hope the new owner listens to you and doesn't take delivery until the roof is repaired per your instructions. Unless there is some kind of written extended warranty from Heartland that addresses your concerns. Another great job with helping all of us with knowing what to look for when purchasing a new or used unit.
I agree with you regardless of how grand design explains it. I would not want to take ownership of the rig. Good call, and you’re an expert with many years of experience. I once saw a late model fiver going down the interstate with a huge bubble on the roof just behind the front cap. I have thought of that many times and it has made me more attentive of the roof condition on my fiver. Great video!
To be honest, every RV has an "issue", not to is an excuse, but it is reality. I have owned both high end and entry level RVs, you just hope to catch the shortfalls early before a lot of damage is done. In the 1990s I had an Aerolite TT that the gel coat sides eliminated and was non repairable. In the 2000s, had an Airstream that had water damage to the OSB subflooring under the refrigerator due to a damaged condensation tube leaking. The subflooring just crumbled away, but it was repairable. All you can do is research/inspect prior to buying, take care of and enjoy your RV while you own it, nothing lasts forever!!
I have putchased one of these alpha membranes for a new install. Never again. Came folded in a small box and the rinkles would not let loose even after laying out on the unit in the sun without glue for days as described from the company. Nope, nope, nope...
I agree with you on the roof. If it is supposed to be bonded to the roof epidermis, it cannot have wrinkles or bubbles! To me it's like saying that, if your shirt doesn't have wrinkles in it, it could tear or chafe when you wear it.
😎 Yes Ser, how can I help you? I have big delamenation on both sides of my new trailer and the windows are just hanging. Yes Ser, that's normal on our trailers. It will go away just as soon as your warranty runs out.🤪
I just bought a 2022 Jayco SLX Travel Trailer brand new. My roof is a TPO and doing the same thing> i had a lot more bubbles than this roof did. I called Jayco Warranty department and they told me the same thing. Ive only owned this RV for 6 months and no issues yet. I will be praying a lot.
I just looked at a 2022 .There’s a screw pointed up on edge of loose side under the roof membrane .Cabinet install I guess with longer screw than needed.About 2 inches on both sides are loose.
So they got it inspected after the sale or as a condition of sale? What a surprise that the manufacturer would state that this is normal! Hope the buyer can get out of the deal and find a better trailer.
I'm by no means a certified inspector ..YET ! Getting my qualifications as we speak .. But ..I agree with you ! That roof does not make sense ..it should not be bubbled.. floating like that it would seem to me that ......one lil tear or puncture would cause such extreme devastation of water damage ..all across the roof ..If that were to occur .. Just my take on it... From Galveston Texas ... Love your videos and knowledge..
James, awesome job, great information……. I learn something from every video I watch, plus it tells me why professionals like you are so important to a big purchase like an RV or camper. Great content 👍
I wonder if they are putting on with to much air being trapped under or not rolling it down at all. One factory video I saw they had the roofing material stretched to length and came down on top of the RV at full length and width and that had bubbles and they did not show anything rolling it down. I cannot remember the video title or maker but will look for it. It is never fun to be the one pointing out some flaw in an otherwise nice auto, camper, home, etc. Inspectors are important but sometimes it sucks to be one. Stay safe and healthy James.
Wow! That’s totally unacceptable. No way I drive that off the lot in that condition. Sure sad that Grand Design is in denial and won’t address the fault. Makes me glad I stayed clear of their products. I hope your client gets a remedy from this dealer. Thanks for the video.
Wow James!! Who would ever imagine that you should have a brand new RV inspected? I think Winnebago bought Grand Design if I'm not mistaken. There's absolutely NO excuse for this poor craftsmanship and quality control FAILURE!! For what they charge they can build a good product! Shame on them for trying to convince people that it's designed that way on purpose. Great video James!
Any RV you buy new or used should be inspected by a qualified Inspector ! I find just as many issues with new as I do with used. James did a great job calling them out on this !!!
The building methods for RV industry made by sort of engineers using lots of glues rely mostly on workers performing specific tasks. This kind of process requires quality control and assurance for each task. That's done by person who purchased RV.
"Disheartening" is a very kind way of saying "CRAPPY!" Sir, you should be commended for your honesty!👍 When someone is trusting that a product will justify the cost, and then you, as an experienced qualified technician, see right away that something isn't right with that product. And even go as far as contacting the manufacturer to explain why they made it the way they did? And them giving you some song and dance to try their darndest to distract you with some lousy excuse...... Well Sir, it's people like YOU that can bring QUALITY back to this once great nation, and force manufacturers to either comply or be exposed for the CRAP that we are being sold! I've probably said enough. But, THANK YOU SIR FOR BEING HONEST! God Bless You!!🇺🇸☝
Had the same roof material on a 2017 Shadow Cruiser. Definitely was put down tight as you described and Alphas website described it should be. I wouldn’t take delivery of that unit if I was the buyer until the roof was corrected.
Really great discussion. I am a lay person but work as a civil engineer and we use expansion joints for strucutures. In the cold climate would the additional "material" contract making it tighter as this product is located in Arizona. Not trying to flame just discussion.
I am wondering whether we can get halfway decent new RVs (unless we buy Newell, Newmar, or Prevost conversions) without these issues, while the convenient excuse of 'National Labor Shortage' is still around. I think it's more about the low-cost manufacturers trying to crank out as many units as possible while the demand is hot due to changed vacation modes caused by the pandemic.
I agree. I do not blame the workers at all. I know they are being pushed to hard for too little. It's almost inhumane if you've seen the workers clock in at the start of the day.
Thank you for educating the masses , another instructional video. To be honest , I would trust your advice over the manufacturer, they are trying to get them out asap , whereas you are paid to look out for your clients interest.
AZ is correct Grand Design people are either stupid or lying. These are the instructions from Alpha Systems installation instructions (steps 8 to 10): "Lay the roof membrane over the wet #8010 or #8011 adhesive.Before removing air pockets with a squeegee (gray neoprene head will not streak), the membrane must be lifted and pulled taut from each of the four corners of the roof. The membrane needs to be adjusted both in width (side to side) and length (front to rear) to ensure the roof is as flat as possible before the squeegee process. Remove all air pockets with a squeegee; press firmly working from the center outward toward the edges. All wrinkles must be removed at this point for a quality installation. The roof will tighten and conform as the adhesive cures."
Well, what’s was the final outcome with Grand Design, the customer and dealership? You can’t leave us hangin’ (Besides i own a Grand Design, too. Lol). Great video.
😱😱 I had the EXACT ISSUE on my BRAND NEW trailer!!! Warranty took care of it. My trailer was a 2015 Coachman Catalina the 50TH YEAR ADDITION. Apparently had been LEAKING around the slideout framing sence it was built at the factory. The frame rotted, some floor rotted, rotted all the way down the right side and across the back and about 2' up the wall.So I HAVE BEEN THERE!!! $$$$$. EVERYTHING TODAY IS MADE QUANTITY NOT QUALITY 😡!! Trailer spent 1yr 2mo 7 days in the SHOP AT CAMPERS WORLD 😡😡😡 They repaired and had to repair again and along the way kept damaging other items that they had to fix ALSO. MY ADVICE IS CHECK THE ROOF AND RESEAL EVERYTHING!!!!!!!! HAVE A BLESSED DAY
That roof looks great compared to a brand new 2022 Jayco 264BHW a dealer tried to sell us. Dealer had NO idea about it, almost like they never completed a PDI. What's even worse, Jayco themselves said "it's normal" - 10-15% of the roof was separated/delaminated! The largest separation was 4 to 5ft long and at its widest it was 1ft.
I inspected a 2022 Vanleigh last year that looked like bubble wrap. Alpha systems said it was normal. Blamed global warning and said they would go away.
i think you are correct james. bubbling out like that is prone to tearing. i wonder why it isn't installed without the air bubbles? makes my spidey senses think they were tearing them in production so 'bobby' an expert manufacturing guy suggested they install loosely to stop the problem. lol. this comes from working at several low tech oems where the loop from manufacturing to engineering is as loose as that roof. lol.
If that was my roof I would not let this go! Now way! Write the emails with document support on how the roof membrane should be installed, and insist on speaking with someone with more clout, like a district manager and insist on it being done properly! Take pictures of the roof, draw a diagram and label all where the roof is loose. Then have pics of how the roof should look! If grand design insists on popping out sloppy work like this and then give a BS lame excuse, holy cow, then they should get slammed for this! 🍻
Thank you as always for your great education. What did the clients decide to do or how did Grand handle this with them, thanks again for taking the time for all of us.
Hi James from Tucson. The buyer should insist that the dealer make the roof right. The tech person at Grand Design was woefully wrong. I'd be interested with the final resolution. You should seriously consider relocating down to Tucson.lol. Keep up the tremendous work your doing. Cheers!
Those things must be flying out of the factories. No time to do it right. I figure technical support assumed your ignorance on the subject of the loose roof. Wrinkles normal on a new unit... right. Perhaps just for grand design?
That is what Alpha Systems told me, that the bubbling on my 2020 Keystone Carbon 403 is normal and a non issue. The roof material expands and contracts is the weather, I could see the bubbling in hot weather and they go away in the cold. Well I don't know if its right or wrong for the roof to do that, I do know my roof got bubbles or ripples in the late spring through early fall months when the weather was hot and now that it has gotten cold, most of all the bubbles and ripples have gone away.
Even Grand Design has been putting out junk lately. See lots of these on the forums. Some dealerships even telling customers that's normal and nothing to worry about. It's a giant lie thats gonna cost a lot once it's out of warranty and the reroof gets paid for out of pocket. Til then Grand Design will probably give them the runaround and deny warranty claim. Seen it playout on forums with similar unit.
Wow! I'm not too surprised because like everything else our economy is wrecked and labor is hard to find. The person responsible for roofs is being asked to provide big numbers with half the staff and inflation (the dilution of our money by printing more) is adding to the cost crunch. It's an uncomfortable situation for everyone even the customer service people being advised to spread misinformation to the customer base. Remember it all comes from the top so owners and management is responsible for the outcomes. If your video gets enough likes maybe someone will see it and take action. Great consumer info, thanks.
So much for their super duper factory PDI process. We have looked at several Momentum toy haulers, and I'd have to say Grand Design stuff is highly overrated.
I'm with you. I don't think that roof was glued down properly. Haylett RV in Michigan gives many New and used RV reviews, and very good ones at that. On one of their new RV reviews (travel trailer) they showed the roof which had bubbles in the membrane. I left a comment that I would not accept that RV with the bubbles in the roof. They sent me back a reply which stated "the bubbles are from off gassing which was normal with all rubber roofs". I'm certainly no expert, but I disagree.
You're right and Grand Design is wrong. I have a Grand Design Reflection and I promise you, I'll never buy another Grand Design. I've had so many problems with it, it's unbelievable. Never again.
600,000+ units anticipated for production for the 2022 model year. Guessing 500k+ will be slapped together crap not unlike this $50k+ travel trailer. It is apparent that dealers can no longer be trusted to faithfully execute an honest and forthright PDI - it's unlikely they have the space or manpower to accommodate the sheer volume of units that would be awaiting days, weeks, or months for repairs. Looking forward to feedback on this post from those employed in any aspect of the industry.
Quality is terrible I can’t believe that on a new product unreal. I knew they would say it is normal but we know it is not no way. These RV companies have more BS. I think they think we are stupid!!!!!!
For being a grand design I am disappointed also in the quality of the roofAlso I agree with you on the sealant that is very good sealantI have never use that but it looks pretty goodI like it better than decor maybe someday I will try itAt the factory they probably don’t roll it out with a steel rollerThat’s exactly what I thought they don’t use enough glue and they don’t roll it out
You saved those buyers a major headache down the line. Sad to hear the manufacturer using the lame excuse of, "They're supposed to be like that." They're probably also "supposed" to only last a couple of years, too.
I think Grand Designs used to be a very good manufacture. My understanding is Winnebago bought them out so that would be an absolute Nope for me. The issue these days is the monopolizing of the RV industry if a little guy comes in and makes a good trailer one of the big guys come in and buys them out and makes it a pile of poo.
@@AZExpert haha. I really enjoy your videos. Thanks for taking the time to film i know it makes the process a lot slower. You have a lot of knowledge and I'm glad your sharing it.
Thanks for your comments…common sense would say the roofing material should not be that lose. Did the customer purchase it? Did grand design step up and fix it? I have a 2021 Granddesign reflection 303 rls and the roof is not loose. Why are some Granddesign roof lose and some not?
Retired and binge watching your videos today. As I have rebuilt a few RVs myself like curiosity I asked the question on one of these Winnebago to replace the whole roof how much would something like this cost.
Rob, My friend had a roof replacement on a 2008 Jayco 5th wheel(39' I think) in upstate NY a few months ago for $8000 +/-. This was due to an undiscovered roof tear leak that eventually showed up on the ceiling of the coach. This should give you a ballpark price. Good luck!!
All RV builders are sketchy. I bought a brand new 2014 trailer and immediately had to do many nit picking repairs. I found out for myself how cheaply travel trailers are built. That roof looks like mine after I put a new coat down before it needed one. I actually started using Flex Seal white paint on my trailer roof. That stuff is really tough and easy to paint on. It cost just about the same as comparable RV roof paint.
It seems like wrinkle might be a bad description of what you showed in the video. A better word might be loose. A wrinkle could still be glued down but a loose roof is just loose.
Hi you seem to be the most knowledgeable on rv repair I am looking ar a 2005 forest river charleston it may need a complrte roof job what is their construction on that model and what would be a ball park on doing a job like that Thanks
I have same problem with gulfstream,second trip and the membrane come off.I don’t understand why the manufacturers sale staff like that.Im very disappointing but nothing to do.Now we have to pay for new roof
It's a shame to have to do a complete inspection on a new unit like that, but I guess that is the world we live in. I would walk away from that one as well.
Great advice.. I think the Grand Design spokesmen was pulling your leg and not wanting to pay to fix their screw up. What did the new owner say about the roof problems?
Well if these TPO roofs are supposed to be loose...my 2013 Jayco X20e has issues because the roof is still perfectly adhered to the substrate ,still looks like new, and never leaks or balloons, I'm worried, what should I do?
Such a shame, especially for what new RV's are going for. I don't like the way the self level lap sealant doesn't butt up against the sunroof or roof vent allowing water to pool instead of run away.
Do you have vids up on the small/micro trailers? We were going to buy a larger trailer until watching your content for a while and realizing what we would be getting into.
I don't have any. The smaller trailers have a large following and are usually factory ordered or sell very quickly. So I don't get to see them often, and they are simple and don't break much either.
Terrifying. The whole design seems sketchy to me. With water damage being as prevalent and disastrous as it is, why can't they engineer a virtually leakproof roof? It seems the towable RV industry is ripe for a disruptor to move in and build a truly quality product for 10-20% more money. Are there any brands or sub-brands of travel trailer you find consistently well built?
So, who am I to believe? James, a guy who has inspected countless roofs and been in the business for a quarter century or more, or Grand Design, a manufacturer who is turning out units at the cyclic rate during a so-called pandemic when workers are as scarce as hens’ teeth? I’ll take James for $1000, Alex.
Thank you!
Me too 💯👍😎
I read the installation instructions. Item 10 states, “Remove all air pockets with a squeegee; press firmly working from the center outward toward the edges. All wrinkles must be removed at this point for a quality installation. The roof will tighten and conform as the adhesive cures.”
Sound as if air pockets are an issue.
Additionally, what would be the purpose of any adhesive is pickets were permitted. Eventually the air pockets will grow.
Customers are wise to choose a professional like you who has many years of experience. Not all inspectors are the same, but this customer now have the honest report and know what needs to be done.
Thank you! That's very kind
For a new camper this is outrageous and it’s definitely not going to be on my list of desirables. Thank you for letting us see the extent of the damage in a brand new vehicle. I’m honestly shocked at the shoddy workmanship and I’m so glad you left.
Thanks for watching! :)
I was so close to pulling the trigger on a Grand Design Imagine XLS 22MLE. The roof had several bubbles but not nearly as bad as that unit. Interestingly, it wasn't the roof that killed the deal; it was the cut corners in construction. Loose trim, crooked TV mount, drawers that wouldn't close, unsanded cabinetry/drawer surfaces, wire bundles being messy, and OSB in places I would expect plywood. Honestly, I was really disappointed. I don't think my expectations are too high since Grand Design claims to have such remarkable PDI. Total bummer.
Finding more and more reasons to avoid this manufacture
They have a remarkable Marketing Dept that's for sure. I too fell in love with the XLS 22MLE, but the plumbing fixtures are wrong. Right out of the water pump (pressure side) there's a flex line connected to a PEX fitting which screams future leaks. There's no perfect trailer in this price point, but come on GD, stop pretending we're ignorant.
I love how the manufacturers and dealers say air bubbles under the roof membrane is normal. They sure love to insult people's intelligence.
Yeah...not normal
Great inspection! You should follow up with Alpha, and get their review of the roof and have them issue a statement about it. Ultimately its their product being installed wrong by Grand Design, undermining the potential reputation of Alphas product. Thank you again for your honesty!
thank you
They'll never acknowledge this video or comment on it.
Now that is a black eye to Grand Design. Being a high end product both materials and labour should reflect that. Worse is they did not step up to the plate and own the issue. This alone is a show stopper for me to consider paying the premium for their products. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
10. Remove all air pockets with a squeegee; press firmly working from the center outward toward the edges. All wrinkles must be removed at this point for a quality installation. The roof will tighten and conform as the adhesive cures.
we have a 22 Imagine as well and have seen this on our own rig's roof. sadly, this was also the case on every single other travel trailer we've looked at. climb the ladder and found bubbles on each one of them. jayco, grand design, keystone, and coachmen all had them. we had them on our previous coachmen and was told "it's normal." prices keep going up but the quality takes a dive. :(
Same for our 2022 3100rd. Ours has over 30 big bubbles and dealer said it was normal….
Great Job James ! Thank you for calling them out !! I have been finding this all the time during inspections with several brands ! I have a Grand Design and my membrane is not bubbling. Its 2 years old and looks better than that one. Imo you are correct , this is not right and probably the reason membranes have been blowing off.
Dealerships and manufacturers are telling people it has to expand and contract. They also tell them its not glued down. ( That I believe ) lol
Thats complete BS ! Ive had several TPO roofs and they were all glued down with no bubbles
I sure as hell would not accept that unit !!!
I have heard factories and dealers try to say the roof membranes are "floating" which is completely wrong.
@@AZExpert They are partly right because some are floating through the air when they blow off ! Lol
Not at all surprised that the factory “technical support” would say that is normal. After all, it only has to last 12 months and when the warranty expires they can wash their hands of it. Sad but a true statement of the status of the industry in 2021.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
@@AZExpert I love learning from your videos. Your real world experience inspecting, finding and fixing manufacturing errors speaks volumes to us out here
12 months? That's just the bumper to bumper.
The membranes are typically a 10 to 12 year warranty. The stipulation tied to that is typically that a roof inspection has to be completed by a licensed shopper on an annual basis, issues addressed and that the membrane has to be resealed every couple years (if memory serves me right).
New tech here in Canada. I’ve seen a lot of customers with new trailers with poor roof installs from factory, dealing with a lot of extended warranty jobs that are being handed to us from another dealership, we are a mobile service company….. disheartened is the best way to describe the tech’s moods with all these new units with roof problems (among other problems with the quality control issues with 2020-2021-2022 units we have been dealing with)
I am sorry to hear that. Factory warranties can be the worse part of the repairs too in my experience that's why I won't accept factory warranty work.
A loose roof membrame gets one cut in it from a branch or whatever, it will then peel off like the skin of an apple!
That's a good point too.
Hope the new owner listens to you and doesn't take delivery until the roof is repaired per your instructions. Unless there is some kind of written extended warranty from Heartland that addresses your concerns. Another great job with helping all of us with knowing what to look for when purchasing a new or used unit.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
I agree with you regardless of how grand design explains it. I would not want to take ownership of the rig. Good call, and you’re an expert with many years of experience. I once saw a late model fiver going down the interstate with a huge bubble on the roof just behind the front cap. I have thought of that many times and it has made me more attentive of the roof condition on my fiver. Great video!
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
I think youre 100% correct, and GD is 100% full of you know what.
thank you
To be honest, every RV has an "issue", not to is an excuse, but it is reality. I have owned both high end and entry level RVs, you just hope to catch the shortfalls early before a lot of damage is done. In the 1990s I had an Aerolite TT that the gel coat sides eliminated and was non repairable. In the 2000s, had an Airstream that had water damage to the OSB subflooring under the refrigerator due to a damaged condensation tube leaking. The subflooring just crumbled away, but it was repairable. All you can do is research/inspect prior to buying, take care of and enjoy your RV while you own it, nothing lasts forever!!
Nothing lasts forever for sure, but it should probably last a year or two
I have putchased one of these alpha membranes for a new install. Never again. Came folded in a small box and the rinkles would not let loose even after laying out on the unit in the sun without glue for days as described from the company. Nope, nope, nope...
I agree, there's no way it should be loose like that.
Absolutely
I agree with you on the roof. If it is supposed to be bonded to the roof epidermis, it cannot have wrinkles or bubbles! To me it's like saying that, if your shirt doesn't have wrinkles in it, it could tear or chafe when you wear it.
good analog!
When I was driving semi’s I was amazed at how big of bubble I would see on the front of some trailers.
I see them all the time
😎 Yes Ser, how can I help you?
I have big delamenation on both sides of my new trailer and the windows are just hanging.
Yes Ser, that's normal on our trailers. It will go away just as soon as your warranty runs out.🤪
LOL Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
I just bought a 2022 Jayco SLX Travel Trailer brand new. My roof is a TPO and doing the same thing> i had a lot more bubbles than this roof did. I called Jayco Warranty department and they told me the same thing. Ive only owned this RV for 6 months and no issues yet. I will be praying a lot.
I just looked at a 2022 .There’s a screw pointed up on edge of loose side under the roof membrane .Cabinet install I guess with longer screw than needed.About 2 inches on both sides are loose.
Same thing on my friends Grand Design 5th wheel . They told him it's fine and normal . I said no it's not , it's only going to get worse with time .
I agree with you
So they got it inspected after the sale or as a condition of sale? What a surprise that the manufacturer would state that this is normal! Hope the buyer can get out of the deal and find a better trailer.
condition of the sale
I'm by no means a certified inspector ..YET !
Getting my qualifications as we speak ..
But ..I agree with you !
That roof does not make sense ..it should not be bubbled.. floating like that it would seem to me that ......one lil tear or puncture would cause such extreme devastation of water damage ..all across the roof ..If that were to occur ..
Just my take on it...
From Galveston Texas ...
Love your videos and knowledge..
Correct.
James, awesome job, great information……. I learn something from every video I watch, plus it tells me why professionals like you are so important to a big purchase like an RV or camper. Great content 👍
I appreciate that!
I wonder if they are putting on with to much air being trapped under or not rolling it down at all. One factory video I saw they had the roofing material stretched to length and came down on top of the RV at full length and width and that had bubbles and they did not show anything rolling it down. I cannot remember the video title or maker but will look for it. It is never fun to be the one pointing out some flaw in an otherwise nice auto, camper, home, etc. Inspectors are important but sometimes it sucks to be one. Stay safe and healthy James.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
Wow! That’s totally unacceptable. No way I drive that off the lot in that condition. Sure sad that Grand Design is in denial and won’t address the fault. Makes me glad I stayed clear of their products. I hope your client gets a remedy from this dealer. Thanks for the video.
My thoughts exactly. Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
Wow James!! Who would ever imagine that you should have a brand new RV inspected? I think Winnebago bought Grand Design if I'm not mistaken. There's absolutely NO excuse for this poor craftsmanship and quality control FAILURE!! For what they charge they can build a good product! Shame on them for trying to convince people that it's designed that way on purpose. Great video James!
Any RV you buy new or used should be inspected by a qualified Inspector !
I find just as many issues with new as I do with used.
James did a great job calling them out on this !!!
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
The building methods for RV industry made by sort of engineers using lots of glues rely mostly on workers performing specific tasks. This kind of process requires quality control and assurance for each task. That's done by person who purchased RV.
You would think that would be done earlier...
This video is perfect timing for us!
Hey, Thanks for watching! :) Glad to hear it
I trust James.
Thanks for watching!
Sounds like the manufacturer isn’t wanting to own up to their failures! Great review. Enjoyed your video
Thanks for watching! :)
I wouldn't take delivery of the trailer, it's only going to get worse. Good job.
I understand, Thanks!
"Disheartening" is a very kind way of saying "CRAPPY!" Sir, you should be commended for your honesty!👍 When someone is trusting that a product will justify the cost, and then you, as an experienced qualified technician, see right away that something isn't right with that product. And even go as far as contacting the manufacturer to explain why they made it the way they did? And them giving you some song and dance to try their darndest to distract you with some lousy excuse...... Well Sir, it's people like YOU that can bring QUALITY back to this once great nation, and force manufacturers to either comply or be exposed for the CRAP that we are being sold!
I've probably said enough. But, THANK YOU SIR FOR BEING HONEST! God Bless You!!🇺🇸☝
Thanks for watching!
Had the same roof material on a 2017 Shadow Cruiser. Definitely was put down tight as you described and Alphas website described it should be.
I wouldn’t take delivery of that unit if I was the buyer until the roof was corrected.
Agreed, but it's not my deal to make.
Really great discussion. I am a lay person but work as a civil engineer and we use expansion joints for strucutures. In the cold climate would the additional "material" contract making it tighter as this product is located in Arizona. Not trying to flame just discussion.
No. The manufacturer is full of BS
I hope you don’t mind. I have posted this video on both the Granddesign owners forum and Granddesign technical forum. Asking for comments.
Be safe.
I do not mind thank you for sharing!
I am wondering whether we can get halfway decent new RVs (unless we buy Newell, Newmar, or Prevost conversions) without these issues, while the convenient excuse of 'National Labor Shortage' is still around. I think it's more about the low-cost manufacturers trying to crank out as many units as possible while the demand is hot due to changed vacation modes caused by the pandemic.
I agree. I do not blame the workers at all. I know they are being pushed to hard for too little. It's almost inhumane if you've seen the workers clock in at the start of the day.
Thank you for educating the masses , another instructional video. To be honest , I would trust your advice over the manufacturer, they are trying to get them out asap , whereas you are paid to look out for your clients interest.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
AZ is correct Grand Design people are either stupid or lying. These are the instructions from Alpha Systems installation instructions (steps 8 to 10):
"Lay the roof membrane over the wet #8010 or #8011 adhesive.Before removing air pockets with a squeegee (gray neoprene head will not streak), the membrane must be lifted and pulled taut from each of the four corners of the roof. The membrane needs to be adjusted both in width (side to side) and length (front to rear) to ensure the roof is as flat as possible before the squeegee process.
Remove all air pockets with a squeegee; press firmly working from the center outward toward the edges. All wrinkles must be removed at this point for a quality installation. The roof will tighten and conform as the adhesive cures."
Thanks for the info
Well, what’s was the final outcome with Grand Design, the customer and dealership? You can’t leave us hangin’ (Besides i own a Grand Design, too. Lol). Great video.
I have not heard back from the customer about it. sorry
@@AZExpert no problem. Thanks for the response and your videos.
😱😱 I had the EXACT ISSUE on my BRAND NEW trailer!!! Warranty took care of it. My trailer was a 2015 Coachman Catalina the 50TH YEAR ADDITION. Apparently had been LEAKING around the slideout framing sence it was built at the factory. The frame rotted, some floor rotted, rotted all the way down the right side and across the back and about 2' up the wall.So I HAVE BEEN THERE!!! $$$$$. EVERYTHING TODAY IS MADE QUANTITY NOT QUALITY 😡!! Trailer spent 1yr 2mo 7 days in the SHOP AT CAMPERS WORLD 😡😡😡 They repaired and had to repair again and along the way kept damaging other items that they had to fix ALSO. MY ADVICE IS CHECK THE ROOF AND RESEAL EVERYTHING!!!!!!!! HAVE A BLESSED DAY
Thanks for watching!
That roof looks great compared to a brand new 2022 Jayco 264BHW a dealer tried to sell us. Dealer had NO idea about it, almost like they never completed a PDI. What's even worse, Jayco themselves said "it's normal" - 10-15% of the roof was separated/delaminated! The largest separation was 4 to 5ft long and at its widest it was 1ft.
I inspected a 2022 Vanleigh last year that looked like bubble wrap. Alpha systems said it was normal. Blamed global warning and said they would go away.
Thank you for bringing us along for this inspection. Yikes, shame on Grand Design for their quality control and excuses. Happy trails!
Thanks Phil for all your nice comments
i think you are correct james. bubbling out like that is prone to tearing. i wonder why it isn't installed without the air bubbles? makes my spidey senses think they were tearing them in production so 'bobby' an expert manufacturing guy suggested they install loosely to stop the problem. lol. this comes from working at several low tech oems where the loop from manufacturing to engineering is as loose as that roof. lol.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
Looking for information just like this before I purchase my first RV. Thank you for the video.
Thanks for watching! :)
I agree with your assessment. My 2020 has some wrinkly loose spots, but nothing like what your video is showing
keep an eye on it
well give them your honest opinion! I read the instructions for the roof material and if nothing else it was a were sloppy job of the install!
I think so too
If that was my roof I would not let this go! Now way! Write the emails with document support on how the roof membrane should be installed, and insist on speaking with someone with more clout, like a district manager and insist on it being done properly! Take pictures of the roof, draw a diagram and label all where the roof is loose. Then have pics of how the roof should look! If grand design insists on popping out sloppy work like this and then give a BS lame excuse, holy cow, then they should get slammed for this! 🍻
I agree with you
Great thanks for new RV inspection. You are the RV roof expert. Manufacture jibber jabber. OEM Deceptive Trade Practice
You're welcome.
Thank you as always for your great education. What did the clients decide to do or how did Grand handle this with them, thanks again for taking the time for all of us.
I think they went ahead but needed something in writing.
@@AZExpert Yeah writing lol , I'm sure you know what that means . They can wipe their butt with that paper . Why did they even hire you ?
Wow James I’ve been thinking about a grand design travel trailer but that one I’d walk away from good thing I’m up on my 2006 komfort 4 times a year 👍
that should be a good RV for many more years
Hi James from Tucson. The buyer should insist that the dealer make the roof right. The tech person at Grand Design was woefully wrong. I'd be interested with the final resolution. You should seriously consider relocating down to Tucson.lol. Keep up the tremendous work your doing. Cheers!
Thank you. Tucson is beautiful and I have been getting down there much more than usual.
Couldn’t a one piece aluminum be put on the roof ?Put it down then cut openings.That’s what’s on my toy hauler.
Those things must be flying out of the factories. No time to do it right. I figure technical support assumed your ignorance on the subject of the loose roof. Wrinkles normal on a new unit... right. Perhaps just for grand design?
It's been common on many manufacturers unfortunately.
Prior to signing, I would have climbed the ladder myself, then walked away.
That's why they hired me
That is what Alpha Systems told me, that the bubbling on my 2020 Keystone Carbon 403 is normal and a non issue. The roof material expands and contracts is the weather, I could see the bubbling in hot weather and they go away in the cold. Well I don't know if its right or wrong for the roof to do that, I do know my roof got bubbles or ripples in the late spring through early fall months when the weather was hot and now that it has gotten cold, most of all the bubbles and ripples have gone away.
It's cold here now.
Even Grand Design has been putting out junk lately. See lots of these on the forums. Some dealerships even telling customers that's normal and nothing to worry about.
It's a giant lie thats gonna cost a lot once it's out of warranty and the reroof gets paid for out of pocket. Til then Grand Design will probably give them the runaround and deny warranty claim. Seen it playout on forums with similar unit.
Buyer Beware
Wow! I'm not too surprised because like everything else our economy is wrecked and labor is hard to find. The person responsible for roofs is being asked to provide big numbers with half the staff and inflation (the dilution of our money by printing more) is adding to the cost crunch. It's an uncomfortable situation for everyone even the customer service people being advised to spread misinformation to the customer base. Remember it all comes from the top so owners and management is responsible for the outcomes. If your video gets enough likes maybe someone will see it and take action. Great consumer info, thanks.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
So much for their super duper factory PDI process. We have looked at several Momentum toy haulers, and I'd have to say Grand Design stuff is highly overrated.
I have been disapppointed by them too, but the rest of the RV was perfect.
We've got a 2021 Momentum 397th and the roof doesn't look anything like that. Don't know what changed but that was sad.
I'm with you. I don't think that roof was glued down properly. Haylett RV in Michigan gives many New and used RV reviews, and very good ones at that. On one of their new RV reviews (travel trailer) they showed the roof which had bubbles in the membrane. I left a comment that I would not accept that RV with the bubbles in the roof. They sent me back a reply which stated "the bubbles are from off gassing which was normal with all rubber roofs". I'm certainly no expert, but I disagree.
yeah it's a water based adhesive so really no off gassing of VOCs
You're right and Grand Design is wrong. I have a Grand Design Reflection and I promise you, I'll never buy another Grand Design. I've had so many problems with it, it's unbelievable. Never again.
So that what jayco to me when I got my camper new movement is ok. Down the road it move so much it pulled it self from gutter seal
Yikes
600,000+ units anticipated for production for the 2022 model year. Guessing 500k+ will be slapped together crap not unlike this $50k+ travel trailer. It is apparent that dealers can no longer be trusted to faithfully execute an honest and forthright PDI - it's unlikely they have the space or manpower to accommodate the sheer volume of units that would be awaiting days, weeks, or months for repairs. Looking forward to feedback on this post from those employed in any aspect of the industry.
I'd put more blame on manufacturer, they put the roof on crummy.
Thanks for watching!
Quality is terrible I can’t believe that on a new product unreal. I knew they would say it is normal but we know it is not no way. These RV companies have more BS. I think they think we are stupid!!!!!!
They will keep making the same product if people keep buying it
For being a grand design I am disappointed also in the quality of the roofAlso I agree with you on the sealant that is very good sealantI have never use that but it looks pretty goodI like it better than decor maybe someday I will try itAt the factory they probably don’t roll it out with a steel rollerThat’s exactly what I thought they don’t use enough glue and they don’t roll it out
I was impressed by the sealant
You saved those buyers a major headache down the line. Sad to hear the manufacturer using the lame excuse of, "They're supposed to be like that." They're probably also "supposed" to only last a couple of years, too.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
Great job!
Thanks for watching! :)
I think Grand Designs used to be a very good manufacture. My understanding is Winnebago bought them out so that would be an absolute Nope for me. The issue these days is the monopolizing of the RV industry if a little guy comes in and makes a good trailer one of the big guys come in and buys them out and makes it a pile of poo.
Just get some flat head screws and inch washers and put them in where its loose. A little caulk on top of them and it will keep it from balloning...
You probably should not do that
@@AZExpert haha. I really enjoy your videos. Thanks for taking the time to film i know it makes the process a lot slower. You have a lot of knowledge and I'm glad your sharing it.
Thanks for your comments…common sense would say the roofing material should not be that lose.
Did the customer purchase it? Did grand design step up and fix it?
I have a 2021 Granddesign reflection 303 rls and the roof is not loose. Why are some Granddesign roof lose and some not?
Cant' comment if the customer purchased it. I just gave them the info.
Pretty sad that a supposedly high end unit is so poorly done. I get that good help is hard to find but for the money they charge no excuse. Thanks
I agree
Retired and binge watching your videos today. As I have rebuilt a few RVs myself like curiosity I asked the question on one of these Winnebago to replace the whole roof how much would something like this cost.
I never list pricing because these are customer coaches.
@@AZExpert Fair enough, would $7500 fix my roof 😊
Rob,
My friend had a roof replacement on a 2008 Jayco 5th wheel(39' I think) in upstate NY a few months ago for $8000 +/-. This was due to an undiscovered roof tear leak that eventually showed up on the ceiling of the coach. This should give you a ballpark price. Good luck!!
All RV builders are sketchy. I bought a brand new 2014 trailer and immediately had to do many nit picking repairs. I found out for myself how cheaply travel trailers are built.
That roof looks like mine after I put a new coat down before it needed one. I actually started using Flex Seal white paint on my trailer roof. That stuff is really tough and easy to paint on. It cost just about the same as comparable RV roof paint.
Thanks for watching!
I agree. Respect James
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
It seems like wrinkle might be a bad description of what you showed in the video. A better word might be loose. A wrinkle could still be glued down but a loose roof is just loose.
A wrinkle is still attached
Actually my experience on a older RV if the roof is loose and has air pockets it can crack and tare. The roof should be glued down and tight all over.
Correct
Hope i will be able to find an inspector as good as you when i find a used Class A pusher that we like. If you have any advise, im in CT. Thank you.
Hi you seem to be the most knowledgeable on rv repair I am looking ar a 2005 forest river charleston it may need a complrte roof job what is their construction on that model and what would be a ball park on doing a job like that Thanks
I'm not taking on any new jobs for the time being--and I don't quote prices on here
TY
Thanks for watching!
I have same problem with gulfstream,second trip and the membrane come off.I don’t understand why the manufacturers sale staff like that.Im very disappointing but nothing to do.Now we have to pay for new roof
oof that is awful
It's a shame to have to do a complete inspection on a new unit like that, but I guess that is the world we live in. I would walk away from that one as well.
I was very surprised by it too
Once again, glad I got my minnie for pennies
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
Great advice.. I think the Grand Design spokesmen was pulling your leg and not wanting to pay to fix their screw up.
What did the new owner say about the roof problems?
I think so too. They were not happy about it either.
Get em built, get em out, get em sold!
That's what I', seeing
Where can I find a list of motorhomes built with gelcoat roofs?
Just a matter of time that roof is coming of that trailer .
Agreed
Pretty sad to see on a new rig. Unfortunately that seems to be par for the course in the industry.
I think so too
Well if these TPO roofs are supposed to be loose...my 2013 Jayco X20e has issues because the roof is still perfectly adhered to the substrate ,still looks like new, and never leaks or balloons, I'm worried, what should I do?
james it’s happening here at my work on new units also
I believe you. And I'm sorry to hear it.
@@AZExpert oh we get pissed off customers over it when they are buying it.
Such a shame, especially for what new RV's are going for.
I don't like the way the self level lap sealant doesn't butt up against the sunroof or roof vent allowing water to pool instead of run away.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
I seen that too.
Do you have vids up on the small/micro trailers? We were going to buy a larger trailer until watching your content for a while and realizing what we would be getting into.
I don't have any. The smaller trailers have a large following and are usually factory ordered or sell very quickly. So I don't get to see them often, and they are simple and don't break much either.
Should be glued
Thanks for the comment
Yeah, I read the directions too. The roof is not right.
Hey, Thanks for watching! :)
Terrifying. The whole design seems sketchy to me. With water damage being as prevalent and disastrous as it is, why can't they engineer a virtually leakproof roof? It seems the towable RV industry is ripe for a disruptor to move in and build a truly quality product for 10-20% more money. Are there any brands or sub-brands of travel trailer you find consistently well built?
I dont think anything can be made leakproof. Water finds a way